It's time to D-D-D-D-DDDDUEL

[Princess Ana]

So I've been playing Dragunities a bit. Nothing really past the AI testing phase. Aside from the obvious "We need more Dragon Ravine" this deck really needs two things. It needs to have the ability to swarm better and not rely on its one Normal Summon a turn playstyle (and it needs a way to do that OTHER than Mystletainn, because I'd like it to be searchable), and it needs better Level 5, 6, and 8 synchros. It would be nice to have a reason to use Legionnaire outside of Armades (because there really isn't a Level 5 Synchro outside of him worth it in the deck) and the Legionnaire - Aklys combo. We need more Level 6 Synchros like Gae Daerg, who are proactive and make up the basis of the set-up or combo plays. It would also be nice to have a Level 8 Dragunity Synchro we can actually go into. Read: NOT BARCHA. God Barcha is awful.

The deck is fun otherwise. You do have the Atum - Zephryos combo which leaves you with REDMD and 2 Level 8 Synchros, and Harpie Harpist gives an added layer of consistency (not to mention a good standalone target for Gae Dearg!). It just...needs something more.

[Schadenfreude]

Originally Posted by Emi

I am obligated to express my severe disapproval of all of you. Kin every moment you stall your inevitable demise the slower I'll make it for you.

:p

Good luck to y'all in the tournament.

[Princess Ana]

So coming out in Dimension of Chaos (DOCS), there is going to be a new WATER archetype called (tentatively) Greydle.

Originally Posted by Konami

“Dangerous lifeforms that seize and capture the opponent.”

Judging from what I see, it seems to be an archetype that revolves around taking control of your opponent's monsters and Synchro Summons.

Greydle Dragon
Level 8 WATER Aqua-Type Synchro Effect Monster
ATK 3000
DEF 2000
1 Aqua-Type Tuner + 1 or more non-Tuner monsters
You can only use each of these effects of “Greydle Dragon” once per turn.
• When this card is Synchro Summoned: You can target cards your opponent controls, up to the number of WATER monsters used for the Synchro Summon of this card; destroy them.
• If this card is destroyed by battle or card effect and sent to the Graveyard: You can target 1 WATER monster in your Graveyard, except this card; Special Summon that monster, but its effects are negated.

Greydle Slime
Level 5 WATER Aqua-Type Tuner Effect Monster
ATK 0
DEF 2000
If this card is in your hand or Graveyard: You can target 2 “Greydle” cards you control; destroy them, and if you do [destroy at least 1], Special Summon this card. You can only use this effect of “Greydle Slime” once per turn.
When Special Summoned this way: You can target 1 “Greydle” monster in your Graveyard; Special Summon that monster in Defense Position.

Greydle Eagle
Level 3 WATER Aqua-Type Effect Monster
ATK 1500
DEF 500
If this card is destroyed (by battle or monster effect) and sent to your Graveyard while it was a Monster Card under your control: You can target 1 face-up monster your opponent controls; equip this card to that monster your opponent controls.
While this card is equipped to a monster by that effect, take control of that monster. When this card leaves the field, destroy the equipped monster.

I kinda wish they supported WATER or Aqua more but it seems cool none the less.

[Doppleganger]

So here comes the Scraps remake?

[Princess Ana]

It does look like that, yes. XD Hopefully its better than Scraps, because even with the Field Spell Scraps are sadly so mediocre.

[Kindrindra]

The effect of Slime makes me think that they'll have a lot of floating and/or swarming, yeah.

Guessing from Dragon's artwork that we also have a Snake (tail) and... Dinosaur for the head? Since Slime is the body and Eagle is the wings.

[Doppleganger]

Say goodbye to Exodia!

[Princess Ana]

One Day of Peace to 3 please.

*generic post about gustos missing timing because sphreeze is love sphreeze is life*

[Doppleganger]

skilldrain.dek, amirite?

[Princess Ana]

Skillful Decks: Shit I use
Unskillful Decks: Shit that beats me

[Kindrindra]

Is that... King's Knight...?

That's not skillful that's just bad.


Also I'm amused that Dopple's Deck and Grave are exactly reversed in number from the opponent's Deck and Grave.

[Doppleganger]

He understood Dark Law's effects, so he was better than he looks.

Most players in Traditional are DUMB.

[Princess Ana]

So the Tokyo WCS 2015 results are in. See them here!

One thing you'll notice: the proliferation of Cyber Dragon Infinity and Number S39: Utopia the Lightning. Both cards are pulling a ton of weight. The only decks not using Infinity are still using the card to get him out, Ptolemaios. So, my question is, which is breaking which? Is Infinity breaking Ptole? Or is Ptole breaking Infinity? Given how many decks are using each card...I think its safe to say one of them is pretty overpowered.

[Kindrindra]

In all honesty, CyDra's Infinity's Xyz Change function is probably a big factor in it- We wouldn't have this issue if they had just given CyDra an exclusive Rank-Up magic instead.

Like as cancerous as Ptole being Rk4 is, the three-mat requirement balances him. And, as powerful as being able to go into, say, Pleides is, mini-Quasar is just kinda over-the-top.

[Princess Ana]

The thing with Ptole is he's not a 3 material XYZ. He's a 2 mat, and while yes having to attach the extra tellarknight monster (which every deck packs) delays it a bit its arguably better to go into Nova during your opponent's turn anyways.

I think it comes down to this: Is it easier to make broken decks that can naturally access the Rank 5 toolbox or is it easier to create broken Rank 5s? The latter obviously, so I'd hit Ptole before Infinity.

[Doppleganger]

I think Infinity is the problem. He's far too easy to make, Ptolemy being just one of many routes. Instant Fusion + Drei is terrible too. You could splash that opening into any number of decks, it's stupid.

[Princess Ana]

Instant Fusion + Drei is also non-searchable and frankly terrible without its counterpart. The reason people sometimes run Djinn Lock in decks like tellars and U.A. is because you need very little deckspace to pull it off since you are already running the RotA. That combo while it does lead to infinity is inconsistent. Besides, if it really was that good, people would already have been splashing it for Volcasaurus -> Gaia Dragon.

EDIT: Actually nevermind, temporarily forgot Drei limits you to summoning Machine type monsters. My point still stands though: its consistent.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Emi

Instant Fusion + Drei is also non-searchable and frankly terrible without its counterpart. The reason people sometimes run Djinn Lock in decks like tellars and U.A. is because you need very little deckspace to pull it off since you are already running the RotA. That combo while it does lead to infinity is inconsistent. Besides, if it really was that good, people would already have been splashing it for Volcasaurus -> Gaia Dragon.

EDIT: Actually nevermind, temporarily forgot Drei limits you to summoning Machine type monsters. My point still stands though: its consistent.

I disagree completely, any my retorts are three-fold:

1. Instant Fusion is highly dangerous because of Noden, so in the current game it's a powerful standalone threat. Just turning Panzer into a slow Raigeki Break isn't great, but is a decent in a desperate situation. Drei is strong enough to beatstick which gets to my second point:

2. The backup deck. Decks that can't maintain Six Samurai-like consistency have to put in filler cards to meet the 40 card minimum, most often in the form of beatsticks or traps. YGO decks are still as a whole inconsistent enough that many decks draw heavy backrow without offense, and beatsticking with or into that is a good way to pressure the opponent while buying time for your own bad draws. The most famous, annoying backup deck is Raioh/set 4 which was splashed into everything. If a deck did not draw into its main strategy cards, it ended up drawing into the backup with Raioh which was great at stopping combo decks.

3. The deck dedication issues vary per deck. I would have issues but I need nearly 100% if my extra for loops. but I included the card-intensive Dark Law and he's won me a ridiculous umber of games, as is evident by my screens. Rank 4, as we've seen with Ptolmey, found that Infinity was well worth the effort of using a three-card XYZ.Amd as you note, Gaia Dragon/Volcasaurus. I don't think the dedication is an issue for the most part, Infinity is so good you make room for it.

[Princess Ana]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

1. Instant Fusion is highly dangerous because of Noden, so in the current game it's a powerful standalone threat. Just turning Panzer into a slow Raigeki Break isn't great, but is a decent in a desperate situation. Drei is strong enough to beatstick which gets to my second point:

The issue there is why would you summon Panzer Dragon when you could be going into Noden (it hasn't been released in the TCG yet) and go into something like Shock Master? In addition, given that although it wasn't the problem, Instant Fusion was limited in the OCG entirely because of Noden, I don't see that its unlikely that the same hit will occur here. In that case, this combination is pretty awful to waste your one IF on a Panzer Dragon.

Drei really isn't strong enough to beatstick either. He doesn't fulfill any controlling role at all, and 1800 ATK is only actually significant with a very heavy backrow presence. There are plenty of decks: Yosenju, Ritual Beasts, Blackwings, Shaddolls, Qliphort, Burning Abyss etc etc that can very easily beat over or remove the threat of Drei.

2. The backup deck. Decks that can't maintain Six Samurai-like consistency have to put in filler cards to meet the 40 card minimum, most often in the form of beatsticks or traps. YGO decks are still as a whole inconsistent enough that many decks draw heavy backrow without offense, and beatsticking with or into that is a good way to pressure the opponent while buying time for your own bad draws. The most famous, annoying backup deck is Raioh/set 4 which was splashed into everything. If a deck did not draw into its main strategy cards, it ended up drawing into the backup with Raioh which was great at stopping combo decks.

The difference is that Rai-oh was just one card and had a very strong ability attached to it. Drei has none of that. If you don't have Instant Fusion, its an 1800 ATK vanilla that's not going to really inspire a response in the opponent if they have anything more than a really bad hand. There is also the fact that really, none of these decks can really compete anyways. The only one you could probably say fits this criteria is HERO, but it has Dark Law.

3. The deck dedication issues vary per deck. I would have issues but I need nearly 100% if my extra for loops. but I included the card-intensive Dark Law and he's won me a ridiculous umber of games, as is evident by my screens. Rank 4, as we've seen with Ptolmey, found that Infinity was well worth the effort of using a three-card XYZ.Amd as you note, Gaia Dragon/Volcasaurus. I don't think the dedication is an issue for the most part, Infinity is so good you make room for it.

As a note: Volcasaurus was a mistake on my part. Ptolemaios cannot summon "Number" Rank 5 XYZ monsters which was probably the only smart thing Konami did with the card.

Zwei can't summon it either. The card actually states that during the turn you use its effect, you can't special summon monsters other than Machine-types. This is a pretty big issue as the only meta Machine-type deck, as we all know, is Qliphort, and this strategy doesn't work for them: You can't special summon monsters other than "Qli" monsters while you have one of the pendulums activated, and given the inconsistency of this strategy, that's more than likely.

The only deck that could possibly use this is Shaddolls. El Shaddoll Shekinaga is a Machine-type which means you don't totally kick yourself. But no other deck has that advantage. This combo means that you not only need both cards in your hand, you not only need your Zwei to avoid any traps your opponent is using, but you then need to seal off your ability to special summon. It's not just deck dedication, its playstyle dedication. Are you really willing to handicap most, if not all, of your plays for a Cyber Dragon Infinity?

I've pointed this out in the past, but if you are using Cyber Dragon Infinity as a defensive monster, like for example TKRO, its not going to work in your favor. Many decks have multiple ways of getting rid of Infinity in one turn and most of them are in archetype. Infinity is best during your turn to protect your pushes and make sure that your opponent wastes resources trying to block your offense. My own testing has shown me that. The issue is, doing this typically does not let you develop a field, which creates a contradiction. You're essentially playing with Infinity only, which I've learned is a recipe for disaster.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Emi

The issue there is why would you summon Panzer Dragon when you could be going into Noden (it hasn't been released in the TCG yet) and go into something like Shock Master? In addition, given that although it wasn't the problem, Instant Fusion was limited in the OCG entirely because of Noden, I don't see that its unlikely that the same hit will occur here. In that case, this combination is pretty awful to waste your one IF on a Panzer Dragon.

Shock Master is banned. Presumably if you are going first with a set 3/stun field you wouldn't have the grave resources for Noden. Summon Drei, bait out Veiler or backrow with its effect, then summon Panzer.

Originally Posted by Emi

Drei really isn't strong enough to beatstick either. He doesn't fulfill any controlling role at all, and 1800 ATK is only actually significant with a very heavy backrow presence. There are plenty of decks: Yosenju, Ritual Beasts, Blackwings, Shaddolls, Qliphort, Burning Abyss etc etc that can very easily beat over or remove the threat of Drei.

Most of the monsters in those decks that can beat over Drei are either bosses or need additional card support. If you can't beat over Drei in a straight out head-to-head we're comparing apples with oranges. Kris is himself a powerful and splashable beatstick, and fits the mould if you need one, but the appeal with Drei is Infinity.

Originally Posted by Emi

The difference is that Rai-oh was just one card and had a very strong ability attached to it. Drei has none of that. If you don't have Instant Fusion, its an 1800 ATK vanilla that's not going to really inspire a response in the opponent if they have anything more than a really bad hand. There is also the fact that really, none of these decks can really compete anyways. The only one you could probably say fits this criteria is HERO, but it has Dark Law.

The point is an 1800-1900 Level 4 vanilla is not a bad card to include in the backup deck anyway, because beatsticks are valuable in backrow attrition wars that murder hard to summon bosses. Additional effects (like Raioh) or combos (Drei) are basically icing, but there are enough flavours of said icing you can pick the one best suited for your needs.

Even using a trap to kill a beatstick is a good play because traps are not as easily replaced as monsters, and if it's a limited trap that trap is removed from the game as a potential threat.

This is, fundamentally, why I dropped BLS for another Shaddoll Dragon. Dragon is more aggro and promotes the same kind of response as BLS, but it also punishes some removal and has non-beatstick utility.

Originally Posted by Emi

As a note: Volcasaurus was a mistake on my part. Ptolemaios cannot summon "Number" Rank 5 XYZ monsters which was probably the only smart thing Konami did with the card.

I meant that Gaia Dragon was an auto-included in decks that could make Rank 5/6, despite the deck dedication, because the allure of an OTK through Volcasaurus or Atum was too good to pass up.

Originally Posted by Emi

The only deck that could possibly use this is Shaddolls. El Shaddoll Shekinaga is a Machine-type which means you don't totally kick yourself. But no other deck has that advantage. This combo means that you not only need both cards in your hand, you not only need your Zwei to avoid any traps your opponent is using, but you then need to seal off your ability to special summon. It's not just deck dedication, its playstyle dedication. Are you really willing to handicap most, if not all, of your plays for a Cyber Dragon Infinity?

I've pointed this out in the past, but if you are using Cyber Dragon Infinity as a defensive monster, like for example TKRO, its not going to work in your favor. Many decks have multiple ways of getting rid of Infinity in one turn and most of them are in archetype. Infinity is best during your turn to protect your pushes and make sure that your opponent wastes resources trying to block your offense. My own testing has shown me that. The issue is, doing this typically does not let you develop a field, which creates a contradiction. You're essentially playing with Infinity only, which I've learned is a recipe for disaster.

I'm going to have to modify my tournament deck to prove this to you because you're far too focused on a card needing complete and total synergy, and that's just not realistic. Raioh for example is great if there isn't a boss already on the field. He's basically dead because of changes in the game-state. That happens all the time, only stupid decks like Nekroz or Dragon Rulers have every card live all the time.

[Princess Ana]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Shock Master is banned. Presumably if you are going first with a set 3/stun field you wouldn't have the grave resources for Noden. Summon Drei, bait out Veiler or backrow with its effect, then summon Panzer.

Well if we are talking reality OCG is the only way to go but

Most of the monsters in those decks that can beat over Drei are either bosses or need additional card support. If you can't beat over Drei in a straight out head-to-head we're comparing apples with oranges. Kris is himself a powerful and splashable beatstick, and fits the mould if you need one, but the appeal with Drei is Infinity.

They may need bosses or extra card support but its not exactly hard. Come on, are we honestly going to say that Dante is "difficult" for a Burning Abyss deck to summon? It's not comparing apples to oranges its looking at actual viability of an 1800 ATK monster. All of these scenarios are common. Look at Yosenju. How often are they not going to have two weasels? I think we all agree that's a very uncommon scenario.

The point is an 1800-1900 Level 4 vanilla is not a bad card to include in the backup deck anyway, because beatsticks are valuable in backrow attrition wars that murder hard to summon bosses. Additional effects (like Raioh) or combos (Drei) are basically icing, but there are enough flavours of said icing you can pick the one best suited for your needs.

The game has evolved from this point though. Would you honestly suggest that a tellarknight player splash, I dunno, Vorse Raider into their deck? No, you wouldn't. Even for Yosenju, people wouldn't run Vorse Raider with three Tenki. Cards need to do something right now. Look at Yosenju again, because its one of the only backrow decks that exist right now. Kama I is a +1 bounce, Kama II attacks directly which is somewhat useful and Kama III is a search. But the deck doesn't need anything on the field to play. People used to run Shinchu L or whatever it was to keep Secret Move viable but they dropped it. Look at Tellarknight Unukalhai. An 1800 ATK monster than dumps a tellarknight in the grave. Even if its BTH'd it does something. But tellarknight users typically only run 1-2 and some don't at all. The game evolved has evolved from this point.

I'm going to have to modify my tournament deck to prove this to you because you're far too focused on a card needing complete and total synergy, and that's just not realistic. Raioh for example is great if there isn't a boss already on the field. He's basically dead because of changes in the game-state. That happens all the time, only stupid decks like Nekroz or Dragon Rulers have every card live all the time.

I play Sibylla Gustos. I think I understand that not every card needs total synergy. Hell, the deck wouldn't work to begin with if it wasn't for Pot of Taboos and Gusto Griffin. But the issue here, is not that Drei doesn't provide total synergy, it provides none, hell, even negative synergy. What happens if you normal summon Drei on an empty field and it gets BTH'd? You've activated it effect, now you can't do anything. There is no Call of the Haunted summoning Deneb, there is placing your pendulum scales and summoning a bunch of Qliphort monsters, there is no Djinn Lock. You've locked yourself out and potentially have seriously screwed yourself over. Drei is not Wolfbark. It's utility only works if you have Instant Fusion. If you summon Drei and don't use its effect, Instant Fusion now has to wait. If you use it and don't have Instant Fusion, you just have a Level 5 monster (which there isn't a deck that can take advantage of that right now).

The best way I can illustrate this is Star Seraphs. One of the best Rank 4 engines in the game. Immensely powerful. Summoning Delteros with this engine gives the often named "Draw 3, Pop 2" combo. Seriously, its like a +2 for summoning a 3 mat XYZ. That's unheard of. But not every deck uses it. You don't see Star Seraph Nekroz. You don't see Star Seraph Yosenju or Ritual Beast. You don't even commonly see Star Seraph Tellarknights. The only deck you ever commonly see this is Shaddolls. Why? Shaddols don't require you to draw Scepter, since you can dump it easily with Shaddoll Fusion. Not every deck runs it, because there is no guarantee that the engine will work. I played Star Seraph Agents a little while, probably a couple months on Devpro. I did awfully. It wasn't a fault of bad deck building, I do know how to build Agents, I've done it in the past and its worked out well. But even with one of the best engines, an engine that might I add has synergy with Agents because of its attribute and typing, it still didn't make Agents good enough. The engine could, and did often, fail. You would draw a lone Sovereign and guess what? That MOFO would stay in your hand until you drew a Scepter. You drew a Scepter and nothing else? Sure you got a +1...but then you had to a draw another Scepter or wait for your opponent to get rid of it and hope you had a Call of the Haunted.

The Instant Fusion + Drei thing is similar. But the difference is that with Scepters, even if it doesn't work, even if you have to wait a bit, your turn is not just consisting of summoning Scepter. Like you can't activate Call of the Haunted to summon Deneb and then do Drei. It's not like Bahamut Shark, its a full stop. If you do this, too bad, you can't use Drei now. It has no synergy. In fact it can be detrimental to the deck, and that decks that would use this as filler...erm...they aren't going to make it anyways.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Emi

The game has evolved from this point though.

No, it hasn't.

It happens every day, in many types of decks.



I lost this game by virtue of running out of aggro, but I still had a set 4 after eating through four traps. It's just that set 4 was designed to kill bosses, not normal summon beatsticks.

[Princess Ana]

People also don't go out of their way to play the best decks online.

I mean its not like backrow decks don't exist in the game right now, but its almost always Yosenju / Ritual Beast / tellarknights and Qliphort. You don't see Koa'ki Meiru. :p

[Princess Ana]

In less controversial ramblings, I do wish that long long ago in the dreaded March 2013 format I had seen the potential in this card in Dragon Rulers as I do now. This cards owns the mirror so much. xfd;

[Doppleganger]

I defeated someone in Match play. My deck inherently doesn't do well against Matches since smart players know to have me go first twice. I won 2-1, once first once second.