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Old 08-04-2007, 04:05 PM   #1
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Islamic marriage (News).

Couldn't bear to give this topic a proper title, too depressing. Just watch out folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IraqSlogger
BAGHDAD (IRIN) - Mother of three Um Muhammad al-Daraj, 35, recently went through a traumatic ordeal to try to save her husband’s life.

She told IRIN her husband was kidnapped by militants who had accused him of supporting the insurgents. After two days without news of her husband, Ahmed, two people came to her home and ordered her to follow them to meet her husband, who was reportedly being interrogated.

“I didn’t think twice and left my children with my neighbour. I was desperate for any news of Ahmed and they drove me to a distant neighbourhood where my husband was supposedly being held.

“After half an hour’s drive we reached Sadr City and my legs were trembling because I know how dangerous the area is and the guys with me didn’t speak a word.

“They asked me to enter a disgusting-looking house and told me to wait. A rude man came into the room and bluntly told me that I had two choices: have sex with him and get my husband released or return to my home and never see Ahmed again.

“I was shocked and started to cry. I fell to the ground trying to kiss his feet and begged him to release my husband and not to treat me badly.

“The man told me that he would be back in 15 minutes and by that time would want to know my decision. In those minutes I hated my beauty and myself. I know that if I had been an ugly woman this wouldn’t have happened to me, but the life of my husband was in my hands.

“After 15 minutes - I was crying the whole time - the man came back and repeated the question and I didn’t have any option than to accept, in order to save Ahmed’s life, even knowing that after that they might kill us both.

“I had to forget my honour to save my husband’s life. It was the most terrible 20 minutes of my life. I just felt pain and wanted to vomit all the time. In the beginning I tried to refuse but was hit in the face and had to cry in silence, while asking God’s forgiveness.

“After that he told me to put my clothes on and the same two men drove me home, with tears streaming down my cheeks. I couldn’t look at my children because I felt dirty. I didn’t even know if my husband was going to return.

“Later that evening Ahmed appeared on the doorstep with signs of having been hit in the face, and when I went to kiss him he told me that I was dirty and that he was going to divorce me as he had been forced to watch the whole scene and preferred to be killed than see his wife sleeping with another man, even if it was to save his life.

“Two days later he left home and went to his parents’ house and said that soon I would get the divorce papers. Even now I cannot believe that losing my honour to save his life was taken by him as a betrayal.

“Now I’m alone, without a job or husband, with three children to look after. Sometimes death is the best way to end suffering.”
...

Source.
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Old 08-04-2007, 07:09 PM   #2
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

That is what living under a religous patriarchy will get you. It is sick, disgusting and barely recongizable as human.
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Old 08-04-2007, 07:13 PM   #3
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

That is so very depressing.
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Old 08-04-2007, 07:31 PM   #4
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

What Ahmed said ("I would rather die than see my wife suffer") would have been really honorable ... if he had meant it in the sense "my wife has been sullied" and not in the sense he clearly did mean of "I am the one who has been sullied."

I think what Um did was truly courageous; and frankly, given that she was (allegedly) given the option to abandon Ahmed and not have sex with strange men, I think her decision shows true selflessness. She sacrificed herself for the sake of her husband, rather than abandoning him. (I say "allegedly" because duh they would have raped her anyway. In fact, I'm amazed that they let her go afterwards and really did release Ahmed.)

When a culture encourages men to despise women who are that selfless, you know something is wrong.
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Old 08-04-2007, 08:30 PM   #5
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
I say "allegedly" because duh they would have raped her anyway. In fact, I'm amazed that they let her go afterwards and really did release Ahmed.
Exactly what pisses me off and makes this whole incident so terrible.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:33 PM   #6
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

I'm too desensitized to work up even a small amount of outrage or sadness. This is just normal human behavior, don't worry about it.
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Old 08-05-2007, 12:03 AM   #7
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by damicatz
Anyone that thinks that Judaism is a religion of peace or tolerance is a fool. It's an inherently violent misogynistic religion and a very dangerous religion. And anyone who says otherwise has obviously never bothered to read the Old Testament because I can cite dozens of passages regarding how to treat women and people who don't practice Judaism.
I would say "fixed," but that would imply I disagree with your original statement. No, I simply want to point out the double-standard that exists in our society, where it's completely acceptable to be intolerant of Islam for reasons A, B, and C yet we are expected (somehow) to be tolerant of Judaism, Christianity, and various other religions in spite of those same reasons A, B, and C. For instance, the whole Old Testament bit about "if your daughter is raped and had not been promised to anybody yet, bring her rapist before the tribal judges and they will order him to pay you 50 silver shekels. Then hand your daughter over to her rapist: they're hitched!"

I'm not accusing you of playing favorites, but I feel compelled to say (to anyone who writes what you wrote), "Let's play fair, huh?" If you want to insinuate that most Muslims practice what is verbatim in the Qu'ran, that's your prerogative, but it's my prerogative to turn around and tell you, "For all your reading of the Qu'ran, you haven't done much living amongst Muslims, have you? :x If you seriously think most Muslims are this pigheaded, then you must surely believe that Jews still sell off their raped daughters for 50 silver bits."

For every one Ahmed, there are a hundred other dudes who would have gladly taken their wife back home. The problem is that those husbands, role models that they are, make for boring news coverage. It's only assholes like Ahmed who make it into the American headlines. Let's not make the dangerous leap from "one Muslim done bad" to "all Muslims do bad," 'kay?

Anyway, I'm probably just tired ... it's 1am, and you know as well as I do that I do think world organized-religion is one of the most dangerous, subversive, and hurtful things on the planet. (clarification: not including "way to live" religions like Buddhism nor the "way to live" aspects of such organized religions as Christianity, which has some pretty great moral guidelines to its name. I consider Buddhist teachings to be more of a philosophy, anyway, ... and the strictly religious aspects [e.g. the Mahayana "great wagon" which ferries souls to the afterlife] as being pretty useless and hokey)
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Old 08-05-2007, 12:44 AM   #8
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek
This is just normal human behavior, don't worry about it.
I don't agree. If I was given the opportunity to rape someone with no possibility of getting caught, I still wouldn't do it. Culture influences human behaviour quite a bit, as is the case in this situation - wouldn't most people you know survive just for the welfare of their children if this was the case? 'tis another reason I'm so peeved over the Baby Boomers in America - they're hedonistic as fudge and push away their children, many of who are a lot more loyal to them than they were to the Great Generation, like they're some sort of cancer that needs to be purged as soon as possible.
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Old 08-05-2007, 01:24 AM   #9
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Well, I disagree. I believe that at a fundamental level, people are people, and all people are capable of the most cruel and barbarous acts, even if they feel that they aren't and deny it fervently. Even the most kind and civilized has an entire horde of animal instincts boiling and bubbling under the surface, just waiting to come out. All they need is the right excuse, and there you have it.
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Old 08-05-2007, 10:00 AM   #10
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Misogyny is common in EVERY FRICKING culture, even in ours (although I'm not as afraid of being beaten to death or raped and then shamed for being a victim, oh wait, yes I am afraid of being shamed for having been raped, but at least I don't have to fear divorce). Joss Weldon, of Buffy fame, has a VERY good rant about it. http://whedonesque.com/comments/13271#more
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Old 08-05-2007, 12:35 PM   #11
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Women are weak. Women are manipulative. Women are somehow morally unfinished. (Objectification: another tangential rant avoided.) And the logical extension of this line of thinking is that women are, at the very least, expendable
Well, at least one of those is correct. Women are extremely manipulating and conniving, MUCH more so than men.

Any way, I think all women should be strong and confident, like "The Boss" from Metal Gear Solid 3. Now there was a fine example of a women. Beautiful, strong, tough-as-nails, confident, and could easily kick the ass of any man who gave her crap. But she also had a caring side as well.
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Old 08-05-2007, 01:47 PM   #12
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Namek- In my experience BOTH men and women are manipulative and conniving, I just think that women are that way toward men and men are that way toward women, so men don't see how men are, but they see women being manipulative. Almost every man I've ever met as well as almost ever woman I've ever met has been manipulative and/or passive aggressive.
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Old 08-05-2007, 02:09 PM   #13
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Yeah, all these ideas on what makes one sex different to another is not my cup of tea.

Besides a few based on the ideas of attraction.

Anyway, yeah. This sucks. Very sad read.
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Old 08-05-2007, 02:45 PM   #14
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by damicatz
But, despite that, you don't see Christians or Jews blowing up buildings on a daily basis.
Really? Funny ... I could have sworn ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_w_bush
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_M ... 1evi%C4%87
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_sharon

And of course, if we're willing to go back beyond the last 20 years and allow all 20th century entrants, then duh-hur, here comes Public Enemy #1 who has been responsible for more deaths than Osama bin Laden, Yassir Arafat, and Saddam Hussein combined ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitl ... us_beliefs

The fact is, during the Clinton years, I heard more news stories on Serbian genocide of Bosnians than I ever did on Palestinian terrorism against Israel. And even now during the Bush years, I'd say for every one "Muslim extremist" news story we hear there's one other "Iraqi nightmare" story. For instance, yesterday morning around 8am, I turned on the television while eating my cheese and toast sandwich and heard that some white fucker in the US Army raped and murdered an Iraqi woman and her family and was (thank God) being charged for the crimes in a court martial hearing. Thing is ... he's not the first, nor will he be the last. $10 says he's a self-proclaimed Christian.
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Old 08-05-2007, 02:59 PM   #15
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasumi Violet
Namek- In my experience BOTH men and women are manipulative and conniving, I just think that women are that way toward men and men are that way toward women, so men don't see how men are, but they see women being manipulative. Almost every man I've ever met as well as almost ever woman I've ever met has been manipulative and/or passive aggressive.
What I see, more often than I'd like, is the women treat other women. Very, very crappily. They regularly do things to each other than a man would never, ever do to another man. It is a little disturbing to see how vicious they can be toward each other. And they don't even have the guts or decency to take it out in the open. No, no they have to do it covertly, gossiping about the other woman and infiltrating her social network. It's insidious.
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:39 PM   #16
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by damicatz
Public Enemy #1 is the zionists.
No argument there, other than semantic. (I'd say Hitler is "public" enemy #1 while the Zionists are "reality" enemy #1 with half the public being suckered in to believing that Zionism = Judaism = you're a Nazi if you're against it.) Did I not have Ariel Sharon on my list of douchebags?

EDIT: Just saw KV's reply. I didn't bother to click on the link and don't have the time to read anything right now. All I'll say is that (just like with any political movement) you've got your racist, xenophobic anti-Zionists and you've got your calm, cool-headed ones like myself. I for one do believe the Holocaust happened but I also believe that, much like a lawsuit where a family sues a corporation for all its worth because of the loss of their father & husband, many surviving (Zionist) Jews sued the world for an "Israeli state" and wrongfully seized land from the Palestinians. Are all Jews Zionist? Absolutely not. Is the Holocaust real? I'm convinced it is. Do I have ethically Jewish friends? Tons, some of them my best friends. Do I have religiously Jewish friends? A few, in fact, though not too many. (I haven't met many practicing Jews, truth be told.) Do I believe that Zionist Jews took advantage of the situation in 1945 to finally steal back Jerusalem and the lands around it? Yeah, yeah I do. :\ Do I believe they're religious zealots? Yeah, yeah I do. :\ Do I believe religious zealots are the cause for so much suffering on this planet? Yeah, yeah I do. So how could I not be against Zionism, a force which declares "we have the God-given right to kick millions of people out of their homes"? I cannot.
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:48 PM   #17
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

You're a Holocaust denier dami?
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Old 08-05-2007, 04:33 PM   #18
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Meh. I know what you're saying, but for me, it's proof enough that eyewitness reports (made prior to and during the war, NOT at Nuremberg!) of Hitler's noted antisemitism and the fact that 6 million Jews went missing that the Holocaust was very, very real.

I've actually been reading this collection of essays, short stories, and poems that deal with medical ethics, and one of the essays is about Hitler's state program of euthanasia for children with disabilities. It began in 1933 as a program to help parents with "trouble children" (e.g. severe cerebral palsy resulting in a vegetative state of existence for the child) have legal avenues to seek euthanasia. Technically, euthanasia remained illegal during the Weimar era, but the Chancellor himself made it clear that these cases were to be reported to him directly (not higher, and not lower) and that he would pardon German parents from any accusations of wrong-doing that might be filed against them. By 1941, the year Hitler officially terminated the program, it had evolved into something horrible: parents who brought their children in for treatment were told by doctors, "Your child needs to be hospitalized for radical surgery, it is the only way to save him" and were then being injected (2-3 months later) fatal doses of sedatives. These reports began to leak out during the war when outraged parents realized what had happened and when they noticed that the same fate was falling to half-Jewish half-German "Aryan halfbreeds." It of course came to light at Nuremberg four years later during the hearings.

Again, one is free to disbelieve the various doctors, co-patients, nurses, and parents who have testified that this program is real; one is free to believe that the many written documents we have confirming this program's existence have been forged; and one is free to believe that any children who did die died of natural causes or as a consequence of the extreme therapies they were subjugated to. However, if one believes what I've just written, then I think he ought to acknowledge that the Holocaust proper is not significantly different -- simply that the scope changes from several thousand to several million and that the target changes from disabled children to non-Aryans.

Not attacking you, dami. I know a lot of "Holocaust agnostics" and I acknowledge that it's light years away from being a "Holocaust atheist." In fact, given how sensationalized that time period in history has been, it is difficult for us (the children of future generations) to really know what to make of it all. All I'm saying is, for my part, I believe that millions of human lives were terminated prematurely by the Nazi regime. Motives and methods be damned, the fact (as I see it) is that it happened, and the millions of Jewish children who lost beloved parents and grandparents are proof enough for me.

"Massive conspiracy" theories really hold very little water in my book anyway, since the larger the conspiratory group gets (from one person, to a few people, to a few thousand, to an entire racial group), the less able that conspiratory group is able to keep their "facts" straight with each other's testimonies. The fact that the Holocaust testimonies from so many different survivors of WW2 -- Jewish and non-Jewish alike -- all match up is one of the strongest arguments there is for the Holocaust's veracity. While there are mixed opinions on the nature of (say) poison gas chambers or acidic showers, most testimonies seem to concur that there were "death camps" where slave labor was used to further the war effort and that slaves who were no longer deemed capable of earning their keep were eliminated.
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Old 08-05-2007, 10:48 PM   #19
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

You know, I was going to post something long and thoughtful in this thread, but then I saw shit like George W. Bush's policies being equated with Islamic extremism and the phrase "Holocaust agnostic" and decided that all sane discourse had decided to flee this thread faster than a refugee out of Darfur.
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Old 08-05-2007, 11:45 PM   #20
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Dude, he's the West's equivalent of Khomeini.
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Old 08-05-2007, 11:56 PM   #21
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
Dude, he's the West's equivalent of Khomeini.
You know the thing where just because you say something doesn't make it true?

Yeah, this is one of those times. Unless you can somehow logically equate Bush's (misguided or not) idea to bring democracy to the Middle East with the radical Islamic ideal that all infidels should convert or be destroyed, I am not particularly interested in engaging in a conversation on a subject where several of you very clearly have your heads up your asses.
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Old 08-06-2007, 04:09 AM   #22
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoise
Yeah, this is one of those times. Unless you can somehow logically equate Bush's (misguided or not) idea to bring democracy to the Middle East with the radical Islamic ideal that all infidels should convert or be destroyed, I am not particularly interested in engaging in a conversation on a subject where several of you very clearly have your heads up your asses.
I do not agree with any conjecture that Bush = Osama, but this is always an interesting read.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:18 PM   #23
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Re: Islamic marriage (News).

Quote:
Originally Posted by damicatz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
Dude, he's the West's equivalent of Khomeini.
You know the thing where just because you say something doesn't make it true?

Yeah, this is one of those times. Unless you can somehow logically equate Bush's (misguided or not) idea to bring democracy to the Middle East with the radical Islamic ideal that all infidels should convert or be destroyed, I am not particularly interested in engaging in a conversation on a subject where several of you very clearly have your heads up your asses.
If you are not interested in engaging in a conversation on the subject, then you should not be replying to this thread.
Well I guess it's your lucky day, since after posting on a lark I decided to click your link to Edgar J. Steele's site.

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you actually believe any of the stuff you post in political debates, or whether you're performing a very elaborate troll that would make the anonymous of /b/ proud.

Nice job on posting a critique of the Holocaust by an anti-Semite, by the way. I wonder if your next link will be Fred Phelps' unbiased views regarding gays.

Let's begin, shall we?

Quote:
"Look," I said, "one would be too many, but the numbers are grossly exaggerated. After all, they keep changing the sign out in front of Auschwitz. First, it said 4 million Jews died there, then it quietly was replaced with a sign that claimed 2.6 million. Today, the sign claims only 1.5 million Jews died in Auschwitz, with serious discussions taking place about lowering that into the range of 700,000, yet the reductions never seem to make it into the claim of 6 million total."
The six million figure commonly cited originates with the estimates of Adolf Eichmann (who managed much of the logistics of the Final Solution), who put the number of dead at Auschwitz at roughly 2 million, the camp commandant put the figure at 2.5 million and the Russians put the figure at 4 million (which made it onto the original sign), though I have no idea where they got it. The current 1.5 million figure is from relatively recent (mid 80's-early 90's) research into the documentation in such. Steele is trying to imply that everyone agreed on the 4 million mark to begin with, which isn't the case.

More importantly, what Steele declines to mention is that most historians agree that roughly between 5 million and 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust: 6 million is hardly a "holy number" (though apparently the estimate of the guy managing the logistics of the whole shebang apparently is a puppet of world Jewry, or something). So even if you go to the very low-end estimate of 800k-900k Jews killed, that's fairly close to the commonly accepted range amongst historians.

Quote:
That's how it is every time free speech hits the holy Holocaust wall - it must yield.
Appeal to emotion. You can believe that the Earth is flat or that America never landed on the moon, but that doesn't mean you're less of a dumbass.

Quote:
The Holy Roundup

Now they are jailing scholars for the crime of saying things as mild as what I said on national TV. Jews forced Ernst Zundel to be arrested here in America on a phony visa charge and deported to Canada, where he spent two years in solitary confinement for saying 6 million was too many; now he faces a five-year prison term in Jewish-controlled Germany for the same "crime."
Apparently being a publisher of Neo-Nazi hate literature is enough to declare oneself a "scholar" in Steele's world. Who knew?

Quote:
In a replay of the Zundel pantomime deportation, scientist, historian and publisher Dr. Germar Rudolf was arrested in America on a phony visa charge and deported to Germany by Jews.
Apparently, scientists get to write papers that are automatically valid regardless of peer review.

Quote:
David Irving, one of the most-respected historian author/scholars in the world, now languishes in a European jail on the orders of Jews.
Funny how all these "respected historians" (massive fucking lolz when used to refer to David Irving) just happen to have expressed racist sentiments or conducted scientific experiments at the behest of former Nazis.

Quote:
Things Get Worse
tl;dr here and there is nothing of real substance to debate.

Quote:
Now, I'm no historian. I'm no authority on World War II and I sure don't claim to be a scholar.
So he has no actual research or authority to back up his claims, merely a gaggle of other Holocaust deniers with shaky credibility. This is the intellectual equivalent of claiming the sky is purple because the crazy bum down on the corner says it is.

Quote:
I mentioned the Auschwitz signs. That's proof enough, right there, that 6 million is a lie. A lie - not a mistake - a Jewish lie!
I already covered this: not even the Nazis running the damn camp ever said that they killed 4 million, and the estimates of scholars tends to back them rather than the number the Soviets probably pulled out of their asses.

Quote:
By the way, if the Nazis killed so many Jews, how come there are so many "Holocaust survivors," anyway? Just asking.
._.

Before I continue, I would like to ask if you honestly believe this bullshit damicatz. In the space of a couple pages or so I've read at least half a dozen unsubstantiated claims of the insidious hand of world Jewry, a severe misrepresentation of historical facts, and Steele conveniently "forgetting" to mention most of his scholars have expressed anti-Semitic views, among other things. It took me roughly 20 minutes of Google/Wikipedia surfing to do this. Has the phrase "grain of salt" ever crossed your mind at any point while reading this?

Now then.

There were about 8 to 10 million Jews in the territories controlled by the Nazis before the Holocaust. 2-4 million is still a large number of people if you subtract 6 million from that initial total, but the assertion that "there are a lot of Holocaust survivors, ergo it never happened" is a complete and utter logical fallacy.

Quote:
Did you know that the Jews trotted out their 6 million lie before, during WWI? No, I didn't think so. They want you to forget about that claim, which simply didn't stick. People were better read and educated then, I suppose, else it might have gained the traction that it has achieved today in couch potato land. "Six million men and women are dying" in the Ukraine, claimed The American Hebrew periodical on October 31, 1919, the very same claim that Jews made twenty years later.
With no citation of the article in question or any real context to the quote itself, this claim is meaningless. And of course, the evidence he cites is from another Holocaust-denial site.

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You really must have a glimmering of the true extent of Jewish hubris in order to appreciate their belief that, if they got the whole world to repeat their 6-million lie, then God would be fooled into allowing them to enter the "Promised Land." Jews actually teach that their best Rabbis have the ability to beat God in debates, by the way. Hubris. This time, do what I told you before and actually look it up. This is why the figure 6 million is sacred to our new State religion, the Holocaust. If there is a Jewish God, which I sincerely doubt since most Jews are atheists, then he must be really dumb.
What's this? Unsubstantiated claims, on a conspiracy website? Shocking!

Oh, and we remember the victims of the Holocaust in particular because they were, you know, victims of a state-sponsored campaign of extermination.

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The whole premise of the Jewish Holocaust defies simple logic: Why would Germany, fighting a war on two fronts...with fuel scarce...short of all resources...ship millions of Jews by railroad...hundreds and thousands of miles...to camps specially built just to hold them...feed them...clothe them...tattoo them in order to keep track of them....just to KILL them?
The first assumption is that human beings always do things that are completely logical, which is a bit of a stretch by itself, even militarily. The samurai code of ethos in feudal Japan, while encouraging notable wartime qualities such as bravery and loyalty, also endorsed practices that would run counter to what most military strategists would regard as good policy. This happens throughout history, with mercenaries who could have turned the tide of the battle in favor of their paymasters placed in the wrong position due to animosity from the regulars and commanders doubting their loyalty, among other things.

Another simple answer is that ideology often trumps reason: from a purely practical perspective, there's no reason for denying gay couples the right to marry, yet there are groups fighting tooth and nail to ensure it doesn't happen.

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It doesn't even begin to make sense. If the Germans had wanted to kill the Jews, they would have done it the way the Russian Jews murdered 20 to 80 million Russian Christians earlier in the century...with a bullet to the base of the skull, wherever they were found.
And funnily enough, the SS happened to do just that.

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Or, as my buddy Al likes to say: In all of German-occupied Europe , there were 2.4 million Jews. After the war, 3.8 million Jews applied for Holocaust reparations.
The 2.4 million number was contradicted above.

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Even a cursory examination proves that the Jews are lying. For example, the Jewish Encyclopedia confirms Al's figures.
The Jewish Encyclopedia, according to Wikipedia, was published in 1901. So they're working from a document that predates the end of WWII by over 40 years.

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In fact, the WWII Jewish Holocaust did not really take shape until fully fabricated by Jews during the late 1950s. That is why, in the memoirs of so many WWII leaders and generals, including Eisenhower, Churchill and De Gaulle, as recently pointed out by Professor Richard Lynn, "one will find no mention either of Nazi 'gas chambers,' a 'genocide' of the Jews, or of 'six million' Jewish victims of the war."
Wow, another scholar who espouses views of racial supremacy being cited by Steele, what a surprise!

You know what, that's enough for me for one sitting. I might tackle the rest of this load of massive steaming horseshit later.
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