Why Are We Talking About Feet?

[ShadowDRGN]

I apologize if my last post got a little too off-track. My emotions are running a little hot from a combination of things IRL. I can't deny that I'd have liked a community poll to ask if this is something people on the fence would be willing to update for, but I won't dwell on it. Legendaries were already coming, this is just trying to put them towards a community goal, which is something I can respect.

Zelphy makes good points, especially about starting small and expanding outwards. Personally speaking, I'd love to gun for the Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem trio if I only had three slots. I don't really care for UBs, and while Mythicals do interest me, few of them really fit my characters.

I think this also highlights what MM said about there being plenty of Legendaries now that require at least two from the same group to fully access their forms or features: Kyurem-Black/ Kyurem-White, Necrozma Dawn and Dusk, as well as the different Calyrex mounts. While we could enable these at a later date, I also feel like there's nothing integral to testing this system that requires us to strictly go Legendary/Mythical/UB.

I'll still maintain that having to sustain a bi-monthly tier would be a catastrophic decision. I'm not mincing words here—the last thing anybody here needs is an active end-of-period quota pressuring our work, especially if we're trying to get new people in. Updating is already saddled with the perception of being too difficult, as it is.

I'm currently conflicted about how the encounters should be handled. On one hand, I understand where both the Mods and Zelphy are coming from. As an updatee, I don't exactly want to go through a whole adventure just to get a slightly more in-depth version of what happens in most of the Pokemon movies, but as an updater, I'd also consider the fact that Trainers fucking up their catches in FB is genuinely rare. For my part, I enjoy being a part of people's stories, so I just have no reason to make an updatee miss their chance unless they chose to do something exceptionally counter to the end goal of "catch a legendary".

As for obtaining it, I'm leaning more towards Bi-Monthlies, albeit only as a temporary solution. The FC Ladder, Legendary Zones, or a new updater Shop is I think much better places to put this system, especially the first two, since it means that everyone who updates will be working towards that goal at their own pace (which is, ultimately, what distinguishes Fizzy from so many other RPs to me), but I also recognize these methods are either slow or require more updaters to achieve. It's hard to balance this being a reward that's limited only to those who put in the dedication, while also wanting the payoff to be immediate enough that people will jump at the chance once this goes live.

That's really all I got in me today. I'll keep an eye on the thread and comment on the Discord, but I need to get some rest.

[Sneaze]

Originally Posted by Zelphon

Bad baby, let people talk.

Please do not sass an official mod step in on a subject. I've made my statement on the subject and that's that. End of the day this is getting too far away from where the discussion needs to be and we do have a somewhat limited timeframe for the discussion, so if needed it will be reigned in on occasion. Thank you.

[Missingno. Master]

Alright, as the guy who brought up the notion of which legendaries should be obtainable in the first place, I apologize for initiating the derailment of the conversation.

Now, then.

First, I wanna address something I brought up earlier, that being an Abominable Snowdown-style event to introduce UBs into FB. For those who joined after that particular event, basically it was a massive campaign in which we fought back against an army of invading Ice-types looking to take over the Cloud Garden, and during said event, we each got to catch and keep one Ice-type that we came across, it's in fact how I caught my Cryogonal. Now, while I do maintain that such an event would be a freaking awesome way to debut UBs in FB, I can also foresee a very good reason for it not happening- that being, the Snowdown was, by all accounts, exceptionally draining on all who were working to keep it going. And considering how real life has a way of delivering particularly inopportunely timed swift kicks to the Sludge Bombs, I would understand completely if this is not something the mods feel is a feasible option for the foreseeable future. Frankly, I knew this when I first voiced the idea- I just wanted to get the idea out there in the first place, y'know?

Second, I wanted to address Shadow's question, about legendary rewards and whether they would incentivize me personally to start updating, and the answer I came up with is a solid... maybe. This is more telling than it sounds. See, usually, I don't think much of proposed new rewards for updators, my mind keeps going, "No, no, nope, still no, not happening". This, however, got my mind going, "Well, now, wait a second, let's think this one through". Those of you familiar with me in FB are no doubt aware of my legendary hesitance to update (bad pun fully intended, I'm not even sorry), so while I still don't have a definite answer on whether this would be sufficient incentive to get me to update, I think the fact that it's even getting me to give the matter any degree of consideration, that should say something.

Third, I know this won't really be an issue until after we've tackled this first hurdle of legendary implementation, but I wanted to at least get down my ideas for implementing various legendary-exclusive mechanics.

• Ultra Burst- That's as simple as allowing Ultranecrozium Z to be taken whenever we're given the choice to pick a Z-Crystal of our choosing. In fact, I'm not even aware of any rule in place that would currently prohibit anyone from grabbing one, just nobody's ever done it because there'd be no point to it at this point in time.
• Fusion- Touched upon this earlier, with advocating for not limiting legendary quantities, but I wanted to go a step further and state that I think the necessary fusion items should be either given out in the zone adventure where you catch the legendary in question, or made able to be claimed for free from the Department Store if you post in there with a link to proof you've obtained the legendary in question.
• Species-specific forme change items- same deal as the fusion items, honestly, IMO. This encompasses the Reveal Glass, the Prison Bottle, the Zygarde Cube, the creation trio's orbs, Genesect's drives, Arceus's plates, and Silvally's memories. In fact, maybe allow the latter two to simply be purchaseable as with other held items, allowing us to get the ones we feel like we would actually use, rather than a whole freaking stack of them (though I feel like the Legend Plate shouldn't simply be normally purchasable). What I do not encompass with this is...
• Primal Reversion- this, I feel, should be treated more akin to Mega Evolution. Like, throw the Red Orb and Blue Orb in with the Mega Stones when we're allowed to pick any one we like.
• Forme-altering moves- This, uh, only actually affects Meloetta now, since Rayquaza can get Dragon Ascent by leveling up, and the same with Keldeo and Secret Sword. Simple enough- add Relic Song to the Move Tutor's as an Advanced Move that falls under all the normal Advanced Move rules.
• Manaphy and Phione- I'm just gonna say it right now, I think they should work like in the games. Like, you can obtain a Manaphy Egg in an adventure and hatch it either in the adventure or in the Hatchery after the fact, and yes, Manaphy should be breedable. But, again, like in the games, all it would be able to produce are Phione. Which can breed to create more of themselves, but, like, it's Phione. This should be the least problematic Mythical to implement. Under old management it was actually made available from Enigma Eggs, just, nobody ever actually managed to hatch one.
• Zygarde Cube- I don't think this should have all the functionality it does in the games, because it could let you take apart a 50% Zygarde and create five 10% Zygarde. Like... no. Hell, no. I can already imagine the mods' collective screams at the very notion. So I'm thinking it should simply allow for Zygarde to switch between 10% and 50% formes. As for the moves it teaches (Thousand Arrows, Thousand Waves, Core Enforcer), I say do the same as with Relic Song as mentioned above and let the Move Tutor handle that, file them as Advanced Moves.

Fourth, I wanted to touch upon the notion of trading and releasing. I feel like trading this stuff should be permitted, and that if gotten rid of via the reset thread, it should show up in the Adoption Center, albeit for an exorbitant price. Considering we're intending to make it so someone has to work hard just to make one available at all, I'm not sure how likely it is for someone to grab a legendary just to use it to try and incite the nastiest bidding war FB's ever seen since Charm Petilil. I can totally see that as a concern we might have all the same, though, so if we want to talk some manner of restriction on how far such bidding wars can go, by all means. And of course, if this is another topic that should be held off on for a later time, that's totally fine, I just wanted to get my two cents on the table while the mind was in motion, y'know?

Originally Posted by Zelphon

P.S. If you're in a legendary adventure, please bring a "shitmon" of a similar type but tricked out with a move ocean and ping me when you do, I wanna see shit like a Magikarp kicking the shit out of Kyogre lol!

Haha, count on it!

[Sneaze]

Originally Posted by Missingno. Master

Alright, as the guy who brought up the notion of which legendaries should be obtainable in the first place, I apologize for initiating the derailment of the conversation.

This is perfectly fine, MM. I just don't want the discussion to focus down on the number of Legends people will be allowed, as, with all implementations, we will obviously have to limit that at the start.

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by Sneaze

This is perfectly fine, MM. I just don't want the discussion to focus down on the number of Legends people will be allowed, as, with all implementations, we will obviously have to limit that at the start.

Fair enough.

[blu3shift]

Quick answer to ShadowDRGN's question: no, I have a completely different set of motivations for updating and as far as I'm aware I don't see myself getting a hold of a legendary just yet, even though the idea sounds cool. If I had to be honest, from my (very limited) experience updating feels more like banging my head against a brick wall until I finally come up with the next step towards my big-picture story, so I doubt that it would make too much of a difference even if I was interested.

I'm still rallying behind my approach of keeping the mechanic item-based but without the ability to influence adventures that updators are already working on. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be very fun to rework an entire plotline just to include a legendary because the person that you're updating said so. I think just getting the item should be more than enough for an updator to know that someone's interested; it's a common practice to go over someone's profile anyway so it'll just be one extra thing to look out for.

Regarding MM's posts: I'm personally not on board with having a "catch a bunch of UBs" event. I understand that the community as a whole is leaning towards UBs being treated mostly like regular Pokémon, but I still feel that they should have some element of scarcity and that handing them out like candy would completely negate that. On the flipside, I'm cool with the proposed special mechanic implementations, but I think that we should at least do something with the Zygarde Cores. I'd imagine that there's someone out there who would be disappointed that they couldn't at least use them for RP if they had one (spoiler: I'm the someone).

Also pretty curious about the updator/updater thing. I prefer to use the former but Firefox puts a squiggly red line under that one and not the latter so that might be the right way to go. English is just really dumb sometimes :P

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by blu3shift

On the flipside, I'm cool with the proposed special mechanic implementations, but I think that we should at least do something with the Zygarde Cores. I'd imagine that there's someone out there who would be disappointed that they couldn't at least use them for RP if they had one (spoiler: I'm the someone).

OK, not gonna lie, the Zygarde Cores and Cells hadn't really occurred to me. Definitely could see some awesome RP potential with those.

[Heather]

Throwing my hat in with the answer to Shadow's question: It's a solid "a bit more than anything else on the Echeladder." My primary motivation for updating, and for playing FB as a whole, is to tell stories with Pokémon that I won't find in the games, and flexing my creative muscle. Ultimately, all the updater rewards we have in place already are a means to the "actually playing" part of that equation. When I started with Catharine's character, the most I would have wanted out of having a Legendary on the team was for her to eventually bond with Celebi to the point that the two would travel together, given her backstory, and present devotion to Celebi, and that remains true now. When Fortuna came along, her origin story and whatnot was mostly just an opportunity for me to express the headcanons I have for exactly how Diancie and Carbink relate and not much else, but honestly, earning an opportunity to encounter and catch Diancie in a proper Zone Adventure consisting of the resolution to that subplot, considering the ideas I have for its endgame, would be an experience few things could top in my opinion. But after that, I'm not sure how much I would take that reward. Since the prevailing attitude seems to be that small limits won't last forever, I could maybe see a Type: Null/Silvally after Celebi/Diancie, and perhaps an Ultra Beast after that if I'm still feeling spicy afterwards, but probably no more than that.

[Sneaze]

Okay so having finally had time to get a proper read and response going here...

First off, an apology of sorts for earlier today. I had not meant to come off nearly as blunt as I did when attempting to redirect the conversation back to where I felt it needed to be and can understand how that came off as pulling the plug on the conversation entirely when the point was more meant that we were getting far off track. As far as making said decision without the consultation of the other mods, I will be standing by my decision to do so at the time, as we have all become a bit too accustomed to not having the others around due to the fires of our lives over the past year or so, as well as the fact that up to now we had treated any discussion thread with the general rule of "you bring it up you watch it". That said, I, as well as the other mods, do recognize this to be not the best way of handling major discussions and we will be working over the next while to begin handling issues as a team again, a skill we've become a bit rusty on over the past year.

All that said, looking over things that have been brought up here... I don't have the time at the moment to specifically hit every single talking point so I'll address the ones I feel are biggest at the moment and what I personally feel might work and why.

1. Earning the Legend

It's pretty clear from the discussion here that sustained effort is what needs to be what nets you the reward, not a single burst that would result in topping the Bi-monthly rewards. To that end, I do feel we should move away from it being within a tier there. However, as has been pointed out, tracking these sorts of things can be problematic and the last thing we really want is another bookkeeping record. To that end, I propose that we run with the idea of tallying Bi-monthly records to show an amount of points you've earned. This way we can keep Bi-monthlies as is but have the additional "currency" in an easy to check place. Once you hit a certain amount just make a post during the month and a mod will confirm it.

2. Item/Slot

As we the mods have decided quite some time ago that we want to minimize the amount of new items we introduce for little reason, I don't feel comfortable personally implementing a new item here. Rather, it is fairly easy for the mods to be able to see if someone has earned a Legend adventure anyway so we can simply call it the conversion of an adventure slot. As has been made clear in the discussion thus far, the sentiment that converting a slot mid-way through an adventure would affect the updator negatively, as was worried, is just too much of a problem to allow, so you would need to declare at the start of the adventure that you were looking for a legend. Note that it would be best to limit these to one Legend adventure per person at any given time at least to start out.

3. Guaranteed Capture

So the idea of having the potential to run into something you're not outright looking for was brought forward primarily to allow for some idea of mystique. But, with it being such an earned reward in the first place, let alone the fact that its still an adventure you'll need to be active in, I think a hybrid solution is best to allow both options. When you start a Legend adventure, you can declare a Legend you want to encounter within your role play, with the implication being that your character would know it to be in the area for one reason or another. If you declare a Legend, that's what you get. If you don't, you can get something random the updator might have a fun story for, or something listed on your Memakyu as a fun surprise. You could even state that you know there to be a Legend of a specific type or whathaveyou, and the updator can choose from that list. Then, if you opt not to catch the Legend in the cases where you didn't declare a specific one at the beginning, your slot can be used again after the adventure ends.

4. Scarcity, Power Levels, Etc.

We have enough lore on why this shouldn't be a problem to write a book, frankly. And I'll be completely honest at no point have we the mods had any discussion wherein we've made a decision to exclude any Legends from the list (note that this doesn't mean we won't, just that you really don't have to pull at us that hard). End of the day we have a number of Pokemon in FB already that could probably single-handedly slap around an Arceus as long as it wasn't in the extremely broken raid formats we have so... a problem this really is not.

5. Zone Specific Legends

This... was an idea I did like at first but it's just not feasible in the long run. We had a bad enough time making Zone Eggs make sense without fighting over who gets what, and doing again with Legends would only be to the detriment of the game. Frankly the only zone I look at personally right now that I can't immediately say "yeah every single Legend fits in here fine" is probably NFC and even that you could probably make work for everything if you had a good idea for story on any given Legend anyway. It's just not worth the struggle here, the extra record keeping, and definitely not an additional barrier for entry to new players. It's just easier to let people go into any Zone and find their Legend there. Even if we have new Zones later where a specific Legend might not fit, it's easier to justify migratory Legends in that case than use said justification to move an entire list around arbitrarily.

6. Trading, Release into the Adoption Center, Breeding

No. Just... no. We can have the discussion on Manaphy and Phione breeding a bit later in this conversation, but trading and that sort of thing is just... off the table. We have seen already how easy it is for a single Pokemon to spread like wildfire amongst FB as soon as it appears and these are, at the end of the day, meant to be earned.

Z. MM's Legend-Exclusive Mechanics List

First off, thank you for pointing out that it can wait. We're just going to need to back burner this for the moment as a lot of these require knowing how implementation proper will work first.

[biggggg5]

I just had an idea that may work with Shadow’s worry about burnout in mind. What if, rather than making it a currency reward that’s just a tier in the Bi-Monthly’s, it was based on how many bi-monthly’s you qualify for in a year (kind of like breed slots). If you participate in a number of them, (the numbers that immediately jumped to mind were 50%, 2/3rds and 75%) you can redeem a legend adventure in the next year. Heck you could make it at different tiers where those different numbers correlate to a different rarity of legendary. (Examples: 50% could be an UB or one of the minor trios like the birds or beasts, 2/3rds could be mythical, 75% box legendaries or Arceus level).

This would encourage updating but not feeling like you have to Always be updating or else you are missing out on this legendary currency and accounts for reasonably long gaps in activity when irl kicks peoples’ butts. And has the added bonus of keeping legends feeling rare and special since they can’t be obtained all the time.

And to answer Shadows question. It would definitely tempt me. The reasons I have for not being active are majorly irl atm but this would definitely help place it higher in hobby priorities when I do have more time.

[Sneaze]

On the surface, that idea isn't really bad or anything but it does have two major issues. The first is that it creates a lot of record keeping, something we really, desperately need to cut back on. The second is simply that it's an extremely extended time period, and if someone does want to rush for a Legend they should be able to do so, while if someone wants to take three years slowly building points that's something that should also be considered perfectly valid.

[biggggg5]

Well is it that much more bookkeeping? Bi-monthly’s are already being tracked right and aren’t going away anytime soon from what I’ve heard (admittedly it’s been a while since I’ve been in that thread)? All you got to do is add a tally of 1-6 to the max 6 posts you make a year and when you get to 3 4 or 5 you can redeem your legend for the year.

But on the other point I think I might respectfully disagree with you. There’s a lot of incentives for updating as much and as quickly as possible. But there’s little that aren’t self imposed to keep a consistent update pace past the specific rewards you want. Each FC tier is fairly appealing but once you get to the item you want it’s easy to just stop whether that’s after getting a shiny spray or silver umbra or egg gacha or even the Custom item at 300. But is there really a need for the ability to rush to a Legend? Yeah that’s more initially gratifying but that doesn’t make it a healthy addition to the game. It just makes it another reward to burn out on and then stop updating. And then on the other kind of blunt end taking 3+ years to build up isn’t as helpful as updating that many times in 1 year in terms of keeping people invested and the game of Fizzy moving. Not Unhelpful at all to be clear, but not quite As helpful. But that said expiring at the end of a year is admittedly kind of harsh. Makes starting updating in the final half of the year less appealing and all that. So maybe they expire after 2 years with mods able to provide extensions when contacted about specific irl situations and stuff? But you’d still be limited to one Legend a year. Also keeps the backlog of Legend adventures from building up by a few hyper active users.

[Lil'twick]

I will point out here that the FC Ladder is accessible to more than just updaters. It is also something that SOs/others who help out with shops and GLs both have access to as well. So it very much is something that while yes, updating can be the "fastest" way to get to something on the ladder, there are more people benefiting from it than just updaters.

Besides that, I do disagree with limiting it to one legend a year. That feels like an even harsher restriction for those who naturally update at a fast pace since they already have to have an adventure on going to obtain a legend. So while they might only get one per year, making it so they only can get one can be a massive demotivator. And well, with only one legend adventure or whatever going on at a time, that can already amass a backlog if they so choose to obtain it. Limiting it to one a year could create a years-long backlog for a single user in and of themselves, and that isn't fair on them.

Same thing as making it expire. That can just kill motivation outright for someone who naturally works at a slower pace. Legends should be available for anyone who wants to put the effort into obtaining one, regardless of the time it takes. Some people are naturally quicker at things than others, no point in punishing those who like to take their time or are a lot busier IRL.

I've been waiting for some other things to come up before giving more thoughts, but those are some things I wanted to address before hand.

[ShadowDRGN]

I'm largely with Big and Leo. Tying legendary encounters to adventures solves this problem without needing to place a hard cap on how many you can get a year. That said, I am also keeping in mind what Sniz said about things needing to be limited to expand outwards, so I won't be dwelling on this point much longer. Nvm this, I simply can't read when I'm busy.

More to come but I'm waiting on Marion to post spreadsheets before we start talking hard numbers.

[biggggg5]

Originally Posted by Lil'twick

I will point out here that the FC Ladder is accessible to more than just updaters. It is also something that SOs/others who help out with shops and GLs both have access to as well. So it very much is something that while yes, updating can be the "fastest" way to get to something on the ladder, there are more people benefiting from it than just updaters.

For sure, but correct me if I’m wrong but we aren’t exactly lacking in shop owners or people willing to run weekly shop updates. And it’s not like this would take away anything from them. But ideally updaters should be going through and using this the most right? Or at least equally. We should have at least as many people using it just through updating as people using it for claiming from running shops and other FB functions if not more.

Originally Posted by Lil'twick

Besides that, I do disagree with limiting it to one legend a year. That feels like an even harsher restriction for those who naturally update at a fast pace since they already have to have an adventure on going to obtain a legend. So while they might only get one per year, making it so they only can get one can be a massive demotivator. And well, with only one legend adventure or whatever going on at a time, that can already amass a backlog if they so choose to obtain it. Limiting it to one a year could create a years-long backlog for a single user in and of themselves, and that isn't fair on them.

Same thing as making it expire. That can just kill motivation outright for someone who naturally works at a slower pace. Legends should be available for anyone who wants to put the effort into obtaining one, regardless of the time it takes. Some people are naturally quicker at things than others, no point in punishing those who like to take their time or are a lot busier IRL.

I've been waiting for some other things to come up before giving more thoughts, but those are some things I wanted to address before hand.

I do get that the restrictions feel harsh, but this is my Main point, if the intention for implementing legendaries is to encourage more updating and more Consistent updating in the long term than I think it should be different than just rewarding the same amount of work the same way just with more stuff. If people aren’t updating for what’s currently being offered they aren’t going keep up updating any more consistently without incentive to. Maybe they jump at it at first. But it’s a short term solution.

The reason I initially limit it to 1 a year is so that you don’t feel like you have to Constantly be updating to squeeze every amount of reward for your time and deincentivize burning out. If you can only earn one legend a year there Can’t be a backlog. And if you can rush to get all the legendaries you want right away then where’s the incentive to keep updating 2 years from now when you’ve caught them all? There’s plenty of rewards for updating quickly (cash, FC, the regular bi-monthly rewards) this doesn’t need to be one of them.

With the model I proposed if you for example say you earn effort toward a legend by reaching the middle tier of bi-monthly’s at 5 updates that’s 15 posts over 6 months and that’s a shot at a Legendary in addition to the Bi-monthly reward itself along with the bonus from the post itself (this is just the median number it might be better to have it at tier 1 or 3 or have the tiers count for different amounts toward a legendary but that’s more bookkeeping). And that doesn’t have to be 6 months in a row, if you get busy with at your job or get sick or something. I don’t think 2.5 updates a month or an update every 2 weeks or so is a terribly unreasonable expectation for the extra reward of a cool legendary Pokémon and adventure to go along with it.

This isn’t a punishment for people who take slower time, it’s an incentive to speed them up and keep them more consistent. Just like this isn’t a punishment for people who can’t or won’t update despite this. If there’s no bottom line it’s really easy to just let adventures fall off and take forever which is unfair to the updatee and the other updaters who pick up the slack or take over. Yes life happens, which is why I think a year or two is More than enough time, but if an adventure of mine took the pace that my updater wasn’t able to earn enough bi-monthly’s to get a legend within a year I’d almost certainly be unhappy with the amount of waiting (which is why I’m currently not participating in FB because I don’t want to put others on that pace with me)

But if this ultimately isn’t the way we want to go about things I also understand and won’t press it pass this point. Honestly I don’t think I read the opening post close enough to realize that I was so close to what was originally proposed and that’s on me.

[Marion Ette]

So, as those of you on the Discord are probably already aware, I've been working on some data collection to help address a few questions that have come to mind.

1) Should past updaters receive retroactive rewards if the legendary system is tied to bi-monthlies?
2) What's reasonable for a number of updates to earn a legendary?
To help answer these questions, I compiled Updater Data: 5/1/17 through 5/31/22.

3) Are updaters really the issue, or are we also lacking adventurers?
4) Where are most of the holdups - with updaters are with adventurers?
5) What's the status of our active adventures, and, if people are interested in updating again, are there old adventures that can be transferred?
For these questions, I have Adventure Status as of 10 August 2022.

These questions, and these spreadsheets, are all up for discussion, I think.

My personal answers:

1) I want retroactive points because I want my previous updates to count towards a legendary. I'm not even going to pretend to answer this in any way that's not self-serving. Gimme gimme gimme.
...If I were to be more community-focused, however, I think hitting the reset button as of the last bi-monthly period ending 5/31/2022 and starting with this bi-monthly period onward would be the best idea if we want to encourage both current and future updaters to participate in this trial run.

2) 30 was tossed around, and I think that's reasonable.

3 & 4) I feel like the data shows lack of incentive for adventurers - probably worse than updaters at this point. This is why I wanted to see adventurers receive points, as well... Let's face it, Pokedollars aren't really cutting it. Besides, updaters may be super motivated by this fancy, shiny legendary... But are the people they're updating going to be motivated to respond to these adventures?

5) See spreadsheet. I will leave this entirely to the Mods/future Head ZA to manage, since it's not really my business to do this, I think.

[Lil'twick]

Responding to Marion's questions since they kind of have my points for Big5's argument.

1) I feel we should. Usually we have a much longer time with retroactive claims when implement something, so I want to propose that we have the retro claim time period start with the start of 2022. That way, it benefits everyone who has already updated within the year.

2) I want to aim lower for 20, and my main reasoning is the second sheet. While "But my updatees aren't responding" isn't something we want to hear a lot... the data kinda just proves it. While we only have a handful of active updaters, they don't often have the chance to update unless their updatee is also active. We should have a higher ratio of adventures waiting to be updated than adventures needing to be responded to.

3) Both. It is a both issue. I have been on both sides of this coin, having an adventure take four years to finish that just did this year, and another one close to done waiting for almost a year at this point. But, on the other hand, I have adventures I am updating that haven't been responded to since before we lost BMG. It is very much a two-sided coin.

4) Time. Energy. Even if a updatee/updater is gungho about something, they always need to wait on another person. Always. And as that happens, people lose interest, get busy, etc. It detracts from the experience, and trying to force someone to do something only makes things worse. Avoidance is the main thing that happens when people are rushed, and not everyone works on the same schedule or wavelength. So yes, I feel we do need better motivations for people to be able to adventure, even through difficult times.

5) For me, most of the adventures I am updating are frozen. People have left Fizzy without a word, or are too busy irl to respond. I get it, I do, but even if I do transfer them to people willing, the issue also becomes when will they get a response? When will they get to update? Will they even be willing by the time they get one, and it'll fall back on to me, the ZA, to update again? While I wish we could have people update more frequently, we also need people to reply more frequently.

So, with that in mind, that is why we really should not have any harsh restrictions on this at launch. THe game is at its slowest since mid-2019, the pre-generational lull I want to call it. There is only so much we can do to encourage people to update, and legendaries is pretty much the last thing we have. Yet, we do really need to look at adventures as a whole, and especially adventure rewards. Ask why we only have a few people participating in both parts of the game. Though, that becomes a discussion for another thread imo.

[Sneaze]

Alright so having taken everything thus far into account, here's the mod proposal for this so far.

A new adventure slot can be turned into a Legend Adventure by spending 30 Super Awesome Points we don't currently have a name for (referred to as SAP for the rest of this post). Every person may have up to one Legend Adventure going at a time.

In your opening post for a Legend Adventure, you may declare a Legend within your RP, with the implication that you have done enough study to know it is currently in the area, and will be guaranteed that Legend. If you opt not to choose a specific Legend, you can choose a Type, Legend Group, or other similar things, and your updator can choose for you within that. Or, you can simply not choose at all, and your updator will make a choice. In the event that you choose not to capture the Legend during your adventure where you did not specify a specific Legend at the beginning, you will be allowed to continue using your Legend Adventure slot in your next adventure.

You can earn SAP by either updating or replying to updates, with opening posts in a zone also counting. Updates will be worth 2 SAP each, with replies being worth 1 SAP each. Both of these must be long enough to be worth either FC or Pokedollars, respectively. For the sake of reducing bookkeeping on the end of the community, the mods will track these at the end of each bi-month and post in the Bi-month Rewards thread without anyone needing to report your posts. Note that as we would be testing this system, we would still require updators to log their updates in order to claim normal Bi-month tier rewards.

We are currently reviewing numbers before deciding whether this will be retroactive at all.

Each person will be allowed to have 1 Legendary, 1 Mythical, and 1 Ultra Beast. This is for the purposes of testing and we can expect these numbers to increase in the future as people begin to reach these caps.

Mods have agreed that all Legends will be allowable.

Please discuss these proposed rules for further review.

[Missingno. Master]

I like this! Lemme go into some of this a little bit;

• Considering that adventures can come to a standstill due to inactivity on either side of the whole deal, I like that this gives the incentive to both sides.
• 1 from each group, I don't like for long term, but for initial testing purposes as a blatantly temporary limitation, I think it works just fine, so I'd say I'm OK with this being the case.
• All legends being allowed, good, good, I feel like we've all established by now that it wouldn't be nearly as broken as it comes off initially.
• I realize people are likely to not be thrilled about another form of currency, but I say screw it, this sounds like it'll work, and I for one wouldn't mind diligently keeping track of this stuff for myself.
• Speaking of this stuff, gonna throw a name idea out there- Adventure Points. You earn 'em by writing out adventures, and cash 'em in for a special adventure with an amazing reward, it just sounds fitting to me.

[blu3shift]

Signing off on this proposal, I don't see any issue with it. The only thing that I do want to say is that there might be some friction later on down the line if an updater goes MIA during a legend adventure, but I'm assuming that more incentives will be put in place over time to remedy this.

[Sneaze]

The above is a major reason we'll be putting up another announcement in the not-too-distant future.

[Princess Ana]

I actually think the proposal is pretty good and pretty close to what I personally would have come up with.

I think one per group is actually where it should stay. I know we have a lot of collectors in FB but I don't really want to see legends feel cheap even if you have to do stuff for them. This isn't what I would personally use as a permanent / long form carrot anyways.

[ShadowDRGN]

I agree with this proposal, as well.

Imo, incentivizing both updaters and updatees to keep adventures is the best way forward. Even if we'd like more active updaters, I really can't deny that this has and will always be a two-way street, and a solution that only targets one side is too imbalanced in the long run. I also think this is what we need after finally closing the page on Raids and all the trouble they've caused for the state of the game in the last few years.

---

Take the following as more of an aside (and feedback to keep in mind for the future), as I know this will likely be discussed at a later time, but I do have to disagree with keeping Legends limited to 1 Legendary/1 Mythical/1 UB. There are several reasons for this, but chief among them is really just that there are going to be people who just don't want anything from one or more of the categories.

UB's are the obvious niche: They're tied to one game that not everyone in the community has played; they're hard for some people who like keeping teams "in-character" to justify, and they will likely never get new members unless GF revisits the idea. I don't see the value in tying an ownership slot directly to them once we're out of this testing period.

Personally... I'm just going to reiterate what I said before: If someone wants to put in the work, I just feel like they should be able to collect a reward that's to their preference. If their preference is completing a Legendary Trio with their 3 slots, I'm all for allowing that once we're out of the trial phase.

Consider this: Just like Legendaries, Shiny Sprays are inherently tied to the account that claimed them, they cannot be duplicated or traded. As it stands, someone right now could make their entire team into Shinies if they logged enough Bi-Monthlies to keep getting Shiny Sprays. I think this shows that we've already set a precedent that collecting rare Pokemon shouldn't be arbitrarily limited based on how rare they should feel within the community.

[ShadowDRGN]

Oh, and just to note: I like the term Special Adventure Points, personally. As a Canadian, SAP is just an inherently funny acronym to me that I want to keep using it.

[biggggg5]

First off I am going to second Shadow’s suggestion of being three account slots rather than 1 legendary, mythical and UB. I know the intention is to re-examine that cap after a trial period but even initially none of the UBs off hand and few of the mythicals interest me to really own if I’m limited, whereas I’d go after at least 3 regular legendaries as my higher priority.

Second I have a question to clarify, is it the intention that you can only redeem the SAP after it’s been logged at the bi-monthlies? For instance if I’m at 28 right at the bi-monthly mark and then I update on the 2nd of the month, do I have to wait 2 months for the next check in to redeem my adventure? To be clear I don’t know that I necessarily dislike if that’s the case from a burnout prevention standpoint but it should be something to clarify.

Third while I understand the desire to cut down on bookkeeping, I do want to be wary of passing the buck to the mods in general. The mods get an awful lot on their plate already. Now counting qualifying updates and replies isn’t the most taxing thing right now with our current activity rate, but I would be wary about it if this succeeds and we do pick up speed and numbers. In fact this specific case might be somewhat negligible to their workload but I just want to caution away from it being more common in future situations. Now I don’t have any kind of alternate solution (except maybe this gets its own shop/owner after the trial period) and I might be worrying for nothing, but I just want the word of caution said out loud. The more that gets bottlenecked through the mods, that’s more pressure on them and more delays if one of the few is out of commission for whatever reason.