Suggestions/ Enquires Thread

[enchantress]

We are not saying that anyone was expected to know anything, and I'm only posting this so you know we are not lying or ignoring you. Please keep in mind that my forum clock is set to GMT +10 to account for living in Australia. I posted at 4:42am on 15th September. I'd stayed up all night to try and get this out asap hence the time of the post. blaze posted at 2:41pm on the 17th my time. When I came online that evening to check on the proof so we could post it and get the threads up I was informed by several people via PM that there was a gem of a post waiting for me. I didn't want to be mulling over it all night as I really needed to get some sleep so didn't visit UPN at all that day. I've been working long hours since then so stayed up last night to reply to it, finishing literally minutes before Okiku posted. She did so as I went off to update a couple of shops so because there is now a lot more to address that needs to be edited in, and I can't get to it immediately, I'm not sure when I'll post but it'll probably take a few days. I'm shattered, I can't stay up all night again, and I have other things to do. In hindsight I think the mistake we made was not closing FB for a few weeks while we allowed ourselves to concentrate solely on one thing at a time. We did that once before, but we thought we'd try and keep some degree of normalcy around but by keeping it open we've been having to deal with too many things at the same time which has only resulted in slowing everything down. It's too late to do anything about that now, but we're on the verge of posting it all. Yes we would have posted everything a couple of days ago if not for this, and the delay is nobody's fault, we just feel it's important to concentrate on addressing the points brought up here before having to once again divide our attention between too many areas. I actually understand your frustrations as well. If I were in your shoes I'd be a tad on the irritated side as well, but the past year hasn't exactly been normal by any means. Speak soon.

[OkikuMew]

I understand your situation Tess, and it is fair that after my own (gargantuan) post, extra time is needed to take it (and additionally the others' posts) all in, then respond to them carefully and properly.

I apologies though for the accidental bad timing of my post related to when you wanted to post the news/update. To be fair though, as you mentioned, it was not possible for me to forsee not only the exact moment you would respond to the recent posts here, but also how there was an upcoming update. (I may be the Psychic type specialist of FB but come on! ) Also, knowing that my post would be of a considerable length and it was only a matter of time before a response would be given, I started writing my post as early as I could so it would be posted as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I am very busy during the week with my work, and my own computer has went kaput last week (therefore I am a bit more limited in terms of a proper way to type) so I wasn't able to post it sooner.

Anyhow, I am glad to hear you'll be taking time to consider and respond to everyone's conserns, including my own

[PikaGod]

So what's the status on the update?

[enchantress]

That I picked up two extra days work this week, had two family birthday dinners as well which took up evenings I would have otherwise been online, and will get to it as soon as I can.

EDIT: Just for reference I've completed my replies, there are just some last-minute tweaks being made to a couple of topics of discussion so as soon as I get the go-ahead everything will go into play at once. Most likely in time for next Monday.

[DaveTheFishGuy]

I was just going to post something about MZ and I only having a week left on our UPC-won CfP passes but have just seen Tess' stealth edit. Good to know, looking forward to it!

[Gemini Spark]

So apparently Serebii's forums went kaput, and the latest backup they have is from last Monday. Would that mean some of the discussion the mods may have been making in regards to recent events got lost?

[enchantress]

Hmmm, yes and no. I have a backup, but not a complete backup. Final edits and clarifications as well as a couple of new things added are missing. Give me a couple of hours and I'll see what I can do. Can't guarantee I won't fall asleep in the meantime though, I've been doing that on far too regular a basis over the past few months :/ I really just want this done so I can get on with updating so *trots off* Hopefully won't be too long. If I've not posted in four hours from now then it's a pretty safe bet I'm snoozing on my new best friend - the keyboard :/

[enchantress]

Completed on 21st Sept 2014
I'm lost when it comes to finding a starting point so I'll just jump right in and start from blaze's opening point. It's true that until recently FB was the only RPG at UPN, but we've never seen the incorporation of the RPG forum or Wild Future as being a threat of any kind. We were actually relieved they were finally brought out into the open as they gave us a bit of a breather. We saw their introduction as a positive rather than the negative you are portraying them as being because it gives members something to do when things drag here. That can't be a bad thing. All updator based RPG's are going to have the same problem at any given point in time. Sometimes they thrive, at other times they go through dry spells, that's the nature of the game. Each of the RPG areas have their unique qualities so don't need to run head to head. This will only happen if you encourage it.

I'm not understanding the whole, "the way the mods treat us" argument. You keep on saying that members are afraid to speak up because they're afraid of being punished by us. The sad part is this may be true because that's what they've been told to expect. I actually know of the opposite argument. I know of people who are afraid to speak up in our defence when these posts pop up because they're afraid of being branded mod suck ups. They don't want to be ostracised by the vocal few who are continually speaking out against us. The most shameful aspect of the whole thing is that nobody should be feeling that they'll be coming under attack no matter which side of the fence they are on. What's more, there shouldn't be a fence to begin with. There was a time when all of our members were friends but with all of the bad blood around these days I fear the close-knit community we once had will never exist again.

You claim we always ignore or reject your suggestions when we have actually incorporated more of them than you care to recognise. For some reason you are blinded to our agreeable side because you're so focused on the negative. People will see what they want to see, we can't stop that. I remember way back when we had only three PC slots. We could never have more than nine Pokémon because we were so tightly restricted. Members wanted more Pokémon. PC limits were increased a few times. Members still wanted more. The Elite System was introduced which, while satisfying those who want to expand their teams, still restricted people as well. People wanted PC restrictions lifted. We lifted them. We were torn apart as a result. We even included extra ways in which to train all of those Pokémon by ensuring level-raising and move-teaching items were easier to obtain but it still didn't matter. We've since reinstated the PC restrictions with some minor improvement but are still apparently not willing to listen.

We've explained before that we once had an entire FB Development subforum dedicated to suggestions and discussion for change within the RPG. All we got were requests for things to be given out which of course we denied. The forum wasn't about freebies, it was about updating/upgrading the RPG and about members views on what those changes may be. After an initial rush of ''give out this" and "give out that" posts, nobody seemed to think the forum was worth the time of day so it went unused for the next few years before eventually being deleted. When we were asked for a suggestions thread we provided one. It's nice that people have finally decided they'd like to give some input, but it's a shame some feel the need to focus on the negative responses and ignore the things we have said yes to as we've agreed to or compromised on more matters than you give us credit.

We did not threaten to revoke your updator privileges because you expressed your views. We were going to revoke those privileges because the first rule of the private forum is not to repeat anything discussed there and that's exactly what was happening. The forum exists for updators to discuss with mods and fellow updators any happenings with their updatees or other staff related issues but all of a sudden a few of you were going on about the private boards practically every post. We are abolishing the forum anyway but not entirely for that reason. When the majority of our members work the RPG in one way or another whether as an updator, shop owner, trainer battle or tcg referee, or even the soon-to-return coordinator, we may as well be discussing it in public. Many a time an updator has had to PM us because the person they are updating is also a staff member with private forum access. That totally defeats its purpose. The added benefit is this move will contribute greatly to the transparency issue you keep mentioning.

You ask about Gen VI. The timing of your post was impeccable as I'd already prepared a post that was being proofed for the public relating to the upcoming changes. I'd already stated publicly that CfP's was re-opening within the week. If CfP's is re-opening then everything else needs to go into play as well because the Gen VI changes are all interlinked. Seeing as there are no major changes we could have incorporated it all sooner but didn't for various reasons. It's out there now though, so that's step one.

The AR topic is the one that intrigues me the most for a number of reasons. It's no secret that last year's TO incident came about at a bad time for me. I had stuff going on IRL that I could not avoid and so for the first time ever I had to take a lot of time away from FB. When it became apparent that I could not keep up with all of the updates I accepted offers from members to update the AR's. Some ran with it and did a great job and we're grateful to those who did, but others up and vanished or quit. There was a point at which I came back and figured I could keep up with it all but then one thing after another kept getting in the way, much of it FB related in one way or another, so it turned out I let my updatees down after all and that I'm not proud of. I completely own responsibility for the tardiness of updates with my groups, they deserve better, but I do wonder at what point others will shoulder their own responsibility for that failure. It is not the zone itself that is the problem, it was the unforeseen extenuating circumstances that turned what should have been a good event into the train wreck it has become. This zone is one of the issues that has been addressed anyway, so hopefully the suggested changes will be welcomed by most, if not all, as we believe them to be a reasonable compromise.

And since the rest appears to be especially for me I will say that I am not fazed about being called a cunt. I live in Australia. It's a word I don't particularly like but it's pretty much a part of the national vocabulary. I'm not sure if you wanted to upset us with that or not, but I don't see why you would post it if that were not your intent. While I may not take personal offence to it, I do not like seeing my friends insulted like that, nor would I like to see any other member of FB, UPN, or any other forum called that. As frustrated as we may get with you we've never resorted to name calling and would appreciate you showing the same courtesy. As for my mental health I can assure you that it is not an issue here or in real life. There is no doubt that when posts like yours pop up I definitely lose enthusiasm for the place and with it the desire to spend my free time here, in effect slowing things down even further for a time, but that's a pretty normal reaction from anyone. Any mental health issues I may or may not have are none of your concern and have no business being brought up here.

Then there is family. The holy grail. You keep saying you're not making this personal but it's something you keep doing over and over again. A person's family life should never be criticised or compromised by any person. While I didn't personally take offence to your comments upon finally reading them, others did. I stayed away from UPN for a full day because members came to me with messages of love and support, as well as disgust, about what was written before I'd even seen it. Your post upset them, which in turn had me dreading coming here. When I finally read it I felt you were assuming a lot with the points you brought up. As a matter of reference Arn and I were planning on stepping down last year. We'd even hired two new mods to replace us, but then TO happened and there was no way I was going to bail on them with everything that was going on. I don't plan on staying here forever, but neither do I plan on leaving in the immediate future either. There are a few changes I'm actually looking forward to seeing incorporated and I'd like to see this community come together a little more before I venture off. I've worked too long and too hard on this RPG to walk out leaving it a shambles.

I've said this in private to people before, and I'll say it in public to you now. FB is more to me than an RPG. In a way it's my home. There was a time I felt that way about UPN but I have a new internet home now. FB will always be in my heart though. FB gave me Arn. Arn has given me two beautiful girls. If not for this RPG I would not have them so it's a part of me in a way most will never understand, and I do not appreciate my family being used to try and justify an argument for my leaving. I had hoped to one day introduce our girls to FB, to show them the community that brought their parents together, but in all honesty I do not find parts of this community to be a safe environment for existing members let alone my children. That upsets me considering how much I used to love this community. I sacrificed more than you'll ever know for it which was perhaps a little foolish of me, but at the time I was so focused on this place I didn't really see how my actions were affecting those around me. That's all in the past though. Nobody should ever devote that level of themselves to anything but their families. I learned my lesson once, I won't make the same mistake again.

The discussion you want is here. It's a real shame your post couldn't have waited another 24 hours or it wouldn't have been needed. I was unable to respond immediately due to the timing or discussion would have started a couple of days ago but we felt this needed to be addressed first. While staff discussed the initial details, it's now out there for all of FB to propose changes and work together on them. As for the Skype chat, while I was open to it, and still am, the truth is I'm never inclined to use it. I see your posts. The snide and snarky remarks in the TO, in your base, RP's, and other areas of the forum. You say you don't hate us. We don't hate you either, but the way you present yourself certainly doesn't give me any desire at all to share my free time with you. When work is over, when the children are asleep, and it's my chance to use my free time in any way I choose I'd rather use my time constructively or in the presence of people whose company I enjoy. It's a shame, really, as there are many members I feel I'd like to get to know on a more personal level. This isn't about any of us sitting behind closed doors either as we are quite open to people when they do approach us. This is a personal choice made by living, feeling human beings. We don't need a chat room to discuss anything, the forum is perfectly ok for that, we could just do without the open hostility. For whatever reason people have some preconceived notion of us being unreasonable and so come at us all guns blazing because you think we are not going to listen. When you act like the enemy you can't honestly expect to be met with a positive response every time. As a result you eventually end up getting the kind of reaction you had predicted. It's not fair on anyone. Things have taken a little longer than first anticipated but they're mostly done. Why not let things settle for a while and hopefully everything will fall into place.


Completed on 5th October 2014
Onto Okiku's post, and I'll try to address it is completely as possible. I repeat that we do not feel we are in competition with the PASBL, UPN's new RPG forum, or Wild Future. We have run alongside bigger RPG forums and a larger Pokémon RPG for years and have never been threatened by them. We have no reason to be. They are not FB and FB is not them. FB is unique, and that is what draws people to us. If they don't like what they see they're welcome to try something else and that's fine with us as an RPG with this kind of setup will collapse with a large member base anyway. Too big or too small cannot be sustained for too long, so we're quite content to not be dealing with a large influx of applications.

We've always handled things with relative ease and at a decent pace. The past couple of years have been slower due to a change in circumstances and the past year has been one huge ill-timed fluke. I think most people know that deep down, and understand that, but even so we don't deny that things have been slow. A lot of that has come from us feeling that the hard work and dedication we've shown this RPG are being stomped on by a handful of people who want more control of FB. It's disheartening, and it gives us little incentive to prioritise matters when we feel we're being hounded at every turn. You may argue and say that's not true, but it doesn't change the fact that's how we're being made to feel. So it seems some of you are not happy with us, we're not happy with some of you, fingers are being pointed, and bad feelings are rearing their ugly heads. There's a very destructive cycle at play here that can only end badly if it continues.

Believe it or not I do understand how the stipulations we placed on the AR played a hand in the resulting general slowness of the past year. Combine this with an extremely bad judgement call on my part about how much free time I would have to tie up loose ends and get things done, and you have a right to be upset. I would be too if I were in your shoes so I'm not going to sit here and say you're being totally unreasonable. I thought I'd have at least an additional four hours a day four days a week to work on FB. Sixteen hours a week is a lot of time, and if things had panned out properly we wouldn't be having this discussion now. You all have every right to be annoyed about that aspect of it, but why dwell on a bad year when we can all do something about putting it behind us now?

I think one big problem that's out there at the moment is this feeling of "status" that has been popping up as of late. We've never considered one member more important than another. You are no more important than me. I am no more important that the newest member. Whether you are a member, a staff member, or a moderator, no one person is valued more than another. We all breathe air, we all bleed, we are all people. The reason staff were used as the initial discussion group for the upcoming changes is because they were a smaller member base who already had access to a forum in which to discuss the matters at hand. A smaller group was easier to work with in theory at any rate. In practice it didn't quite turn out that way but that's a whole other story. Working with staff initially wasn't because we found their opinions more relevant than anybody else's, it was just more convenient. Every member has the right to voice their opinion. Just remember that not everybody is going to agree with every person's point of view. There will be differences of opinion, that is guaranteed. Not everyone is going to see what they want incorporated, mods included, but that doesn't always mean an idea isn't good. Sometimes they just aren't practical. There is a difference.

There is no reason the trainer battles needed to come to a stop. I've said that before. Yes the attack descriptions were being worked on, and Arc spent a lot of time on the alpha version which is complete, but that's no reason for battles to have stopped in the first place. They were reffed perfectly fine before, there has been and still is no reason for them not to go ahead under the old reffing system so long as all parties are agreeable until such time the FB descriptions are ready. Goodness knows when that will be, but that is another topic of discussion. In the meantime please feel free to return life to the trainer battles as I'm sure many members will appreciate you taking the time to ref a battle for them. There is absolutely no need to stop battles from taking place. As for registration, there was no point in bringing new members in at that point in time due to what was going on. It's unfortunate that a few people got caught out by it, but with so much internal turmoil we felt it best to sort things out here first as the events of the time really were an extremely bad way for a new member to start in FB. We didn't expect it to take so long but will be open again shortly.

I totally get the mechanics of the hierarchy within your workplace, and understand it fully. It works perfectly in your industry. FB is not that involved, however, and we have no intention of setting up a panel of mini mods within the RPG. All members are welcome to discuss anything they'd like to have some input on, so long as those members are able to speak freely without being crapped on by others who do not agree with them. Those who have the final say will usually be the ones it directly affects, so if it's in relation to zones then updators will be given a say in it. If it's regarding a shop, then whoever runs the shop you are talking about will have a say in the final decision. It's rare that mods will go against those opinions, but if we do we have a reason for it. You have to remember that after stripping away the layers, FB boils down to one simple thing. Adventure. We have some zones for roleplaying in. We have some shops for Pokémon training. We've added a few extra things for those who may have some interest in them (Contests, TCG, Bases, etc), but all that really matters are the zones. FB isn't complicated. There isn't that much to fix. When put to the test it came about that there really isn't a lot that needed changing. Just minor details here and there that needed some updating which was already in progress anyway. It doesn't need a huge political structure, just a few people willing to update or ref their fellow members. It doesn't need to be complicated, and we'd like to keep it as down to earth and stress-free as possible.

The changes are here, and discussion is open to everyone. I'm being as transparent as possible here. I'm not sitting behind any closed doors, I'm just trying to get on with the job I've always done. For the foreseeable future I will be more actively involved in the zones as far too much time has been spent already on other things. Though my time will be freeing up a little more in the coming months, I don't currently have as much time to spend here as I used to so when I am here I'd rather spend my time constructively and that means tying up loose ends. I have adventures to finish so I can concentrate on the moderating. At the moment I cannot allocate my time evenly between the two. To do one, the other will suffer. This is the reason I resigned from updating in the first place which I will do again as soon as I've finished with a few projects. I'd like to see peace return to FB and for members to work together. It's time for everyone to put their talk to the test and delve in. The end goal is to see FB running back at full strength and that is something we all, as a community, need to accomplish by pulling together.

[DaveTheFishGuy]

Thank you for the reply and the updates, Tess. I'll respond more to them over there, probably tomorrow, but I just wanted to let you know that it's sincerely appreciated.

[OkikuMew]

I second Dave here; thanks ^^ It'll take me quite a while to respond to what you have said though (I got some other things to take care of, and I still don't have my computer repaired ;-;) but I'll get to it when I have the time

[Gemini Spark]

Thanks for all the information you've given us over the past week, it's really helpful to know what's coming up for us.

What's the status on the Friend Safari? You said you wanted to finish the adventures there by FB's next birthday which is in a few days, so how likely is that looking to be?

[Stark]

Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen. I have about three more updates to write for my group that hopefully I will finish before the Birthday. Sadly, the Friend Safari slowed down considerably from what we had originally envisioned. Initially the plan was to finish it within a month from starting and have Gen VI fully integrated into FB. For a number of reasons we didn't meet that goal. However, the plan is to still finish it as soon as we can. That is near the top of the list of things for us to do. I would like to say that it is at the top, but we have a Birthday to attend to in a few days, so that takes priority along with a couple of other smaller things like Halloween and trying to answer questions as quickly as we can for you all pertaining to the changes we put out there for you all to read through. Some of your questions have resulted in a little bit of discussion between us because they are good questions that we hadn't thought about, so it is a matter of going through some of them and coming to agreement between ourselves on how best to answer the questions and make it clear so that it doesn't create more questions.

Long story longer, we are still writing the updates. They are just coming a little slower than we would like. I have been writing about one a day for the past few days, so hopefully I will be done soon. I know a number of people in my group are really close to completing their adventure, so I would like to get those done soon for them so they can go have fun with their new Gen VI pokemon.

[Gemini Spark]

Okay, thanks for the news, and I look forward to your next update in the Friend Safari! =)

[MarbleZone]

Between the Development subforum at BMG and the (Temporary) FAQ thread here, is this thread still necessary? Suggestions are made in the former and Inquiries are made in the latter :P

[Talon87]

I would suggest that if you are going to formalize the process of players voicing suggestions to the staff that you do not make it a Bulbagarden exclusive. It's an exercise in both futility and annoyance. People will want to make suggestions where they are most active, where they are most engaged in conversation. If someone is exclusive to UPN or Serebii, does he not get to post suggestions anymore? "Suggestions go in the Development Forum, n00b! Go post your ideas on BMG!" Don't you think that's rather strange? Especially when BMG is the least active chapter?

I understand that you continue to seek creative ways to spread the community out between all three chapters and specifically to make the Bulbagarden chapter appealing to BMGers looking in from outside, but I don't like writing up a lengthy suggestion on my cell phone and then having to PM it to myself so that I can, when I next get to my home computer, post it on Bulbagarden instead of UPN. I would personally appreciate it if we did not commoditize suggestions for improvement as a Bulbagarden exclusive.

[enchantress]

UPN had its chance with the Development Forum. Besides, we have for far too long been guilty of putting too much at UPN while ignoring and even taking away from Bulbagarden. FB started on BMG and we've totally disrespected that fact but this is something we can rectify. We see people talk about the pointless moving of certain things to BMG but FB is a game that spans three boards. It's time we started spending more time on all three and less on just one. Even if UPN is where most people spend their time these days that does not mean this is where we should have everything. There was a time that Serebii was the place to be. Nobody posted at UPN unless they had to despite us trying to get people over here. In the end they were forced to if they wanted to take part in all we have to offer. Things shift though, and we are responsible for some of that. We (FB Mods) have been responsible for neglecting the Bulbagarden branch, it's our fault that so little happens over there, so we are going to ensure the FB love is shared between our three forum hosts in future. It's not too difficult to post at BMG, and we do plan on keeping the Development forum a Bulbagarden exclusive area. If at some point this proves to be a problem we can always reassess the situation, but hopefully it won't be too big an issue.

[Gemini Spark]

With two of the three updaters for the Friend Safari going on variable hiatuses over the next week or so, is there going to be a rush from them to finish as much of their groups' adventures as they can before then, or will those groups just have to wait until after their updater comes back to finish?

[Stark]

I will try to get a few more updates done for the Friend Safari before next Wednesday. I don't know what plans Stacey or Tess have. If people in my group finish before I am gone for a few days, that is great. If not, then I will pick them all up again when I get back and work toward finishing adventures before the New Year arrives.

[Gemini Spark]

Since we're starting to get movesets for the new games, once Gen 6 gets implemented will we go by XY movesets or ORAS movesets?

[enchantress]

Most likely ORAS. I'll need to double-check something, but seeing as the Serebiidex is already updated with ORAS info then I'm pretty sure we can go ahead with this.

[Talon87]

First chance I've had to post today. One hour past Misdreavus Day. Not the end of the world if you say no but can I squeeze in a birthday post given today was (still is) Thanksgiving?

[Talon87]

Never mind. Been nearly a day since the deadline. Question made much more sense when it was only one hour past and I'd been unable to post even by cell phone all day long. At this point I can't imagine you'd say yes.

[Gemini Spark]

So now that all the mods are back from vacations are we going to see the Friend Safari finished soon? And what's the plan for the shop changes? I figured everything was ironed out, but it seems like all of it is hinging on the Friend Safari being completed.

[enchantress]

We're planning on finishing it before Christmas so that all of the changes can go into effect on Jan 1 if not before.

[Stark]

Originally Posted by Gemini Spark

So now that all the mods are back from vacations are we going to see the Friend Safari finished soon? And what's the plan for the shop changes? I figured everything was ironed out, but it seems like all of it is hinging on the Friend Safari being completed.

As Tess has said, we have set a goal of Christmas for ourselves to try to wrap up the Friend Safari and have all the new shop changes in place by January 1st. There is a possibility we won't hit that goal, but for now that goal is in place. This also means that if we manage to keep on task with Friend Safari updates that those of you in Friend Safari are also going to be needing to strive for that same goal. Each of us will be putting an end date out for our groups when we feel we have a good idea of when we think people will be able to complete their adventures. Friend Safari adventures that have not been completed by the end date will go uncompleted and those that did not capture a pokemon in the Friend Safari will be out of luck. We will do our best to not set up an end date that screws someone over because they won't be able to get in enough responses to finish, but we also won't be waiting on people to respond if there have been ample updates and time in between for them to respond. So it is up to all of us to work together to try to make this tentative date a reality so we can move on to even more exciting things.