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Old 10-28-2010, 03:51 PM   #26
Talon87
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Too bad we can't watch these unless we have the game. But I guess it might not be as fun to watch anyway without commentary. Well, never mind that. I read Mcsweeney's summary and it sounds like you had an epic victory. So congrats, guys.
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Old 10-28-2010, 04:00 PM   #27
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Well I guess someone can do a commentary and post on youtube or whatever. It was really freaking epic, I was really worried when McSweeney was dropped out but holy crap were they hurt fucking bad by McSweeneys counter, or I wouldn't of been able to do shit.
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:56 PM   #28
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I just watched it myself. Very nice game. That pink player Magic was a douche for declaring GG before it was over. I really like watching McSweeney's Templar management, mostly because I suck at it.
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:01 PM   #29
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Oh yeah, that was funny when they launched that big invasion, did some damage but lost their whole army in the process, and angrily demanded that we forfeit the match.

We have good games together because our styles compliment each other very well. When I was playing with you a while ago, you lamented that your score at the end of the game wasn't very high. Dude, don't worry about score. Do you know what your job is? The harass guy. You go around with zerglings/mutalisks and deny them income, sniping whatever buildings you can, just being a big pain in the ass. That role won't net you a big score, but it's still extremely important for the victory. What's my job? The macro guy, the muscle. Basically I sit on my ass and tech up, and then kick the shit out of everybody at the end of the game with a huge army. That's going to net me a big score, but I never could have gotten to that point without your help. Because 1) You keep them off my back, and 2) Make sure they're weaker than I am when I finally do move out.

Having said that, if you don't feel like being the harass guy every match, that's fine too. Feel free to macro it up, and I can give that role a try. Protoss isn't great at it, but there's still some stuff like blink stalkers, dark templars, and mass phoenix is always fun!
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:04 PM   #30
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Why do you have to play Protoss at all? Couldn't you play Zerg if you're going to switch over to the harassment role?
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:20 PM   #31
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It's tough to maintain a high level of play being a jack of all trades, because each race plays very differently. If you look at professional Starcraft players, ALL of them specialize in one race. It's sort of like asking a running back in football to play quarterback.

However, I WOULD like to learn how to play zerg eventually because they're neat-o. Also, know your enemy and all that.
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:18 PM   #32
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http://www.megaupload.com/?d=613M3230

This is my recent match I bothered to save. Mostly to show some subtle things to see with playing Zerg. It's a lot of micromanagement, including a moment where I fought off a Void Ray fleet with a pair of Queens and a couple of Spore Crawlers while many had at least Tier 2 LASER BEAMS OF DEATH!

But it's not a great example since my foe's weren't amazing. It's mostly the fact that my ally didn't do much that it is good to watch me play.

Anyway, I usually complain about my score is because it's pretty accurate to how absent minded I get. Like losing a half dozen workers because I made some buildings and forgot to replace them, hitting my economy hard and I still there picking my nose and wondering where my money is. It's a common mistake I make after I've not played for a while.

I do wholeheartedly agree that Zerg is a harassment heavy race, while Terrans tend to be very defense and Protoss carry some very high quality units. Ultimately I win a good number of games by wearing my opponents thin with harassment and the ever important value differences when winning/losing skirmishes.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=X5LYMLGR

This one is me and Kuno. It shows our style differences. Kuno likes to macro it up and take down his enemies with monsters like Ultralisks while I prefer strong micromanagement units even if causes me to stay in lower tech. It's surprising how much micromanagement you need with Zerglings and their suicidal evolutions, Banelings. I've grown to love Queens and their absurd potency when managing them correctly.

It's also kind of silly. I micromanage Zerg units quite well, but I have an absurd amount of trouble micromanaging Protoss units as effectively. Even on my best day, I can never do as well with Templar as McSweeney's worst day.

Also, this shows how what McSweeney says is true. You find a race you like and you specialize in it. Learn to use your units to their (hopefully) maximum potential. If you keep switching races, you kind of lose your tempo with things like build orders and timing as well as the overall style of play. Even though Kuno and I both like to play Zerg, we both play radically different styles.
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:18 PM   #33
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I love playing harass. Just makes me sad when I get raped in the beginning or when my score is shitty. D:
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Old 10-30-2010, 08:42 AM   #34
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High templars are indeed hard to use. I rarely build them in 1 vs 1, because colossus are more idiot-proof. They're great in 4 vs 4 though, because there's swarms of enemy units all over the place, they're practically begging for a storm!

Even colossus take more skill to use than they appear, though. Most people just lump them in with their main army and don't micro them seperately, which means they aren't kept as safe as they should be. During our game above, I actually made a big mistake due to OVER micro: In one of the clashes, I saw that they had a fleet of vikings, so I ran the colossus away. I didn't have nearly enough stalkers to kill them though, and I had no chance of outrunning them. I should have just let them fry marines until they were destroyed. Instead, I lost everything with very little to show for it.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:53 AM   #35
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I want to see Talon playing SC2. I can't imagine him doing RTS's. They can be very very frustrating if you suck lol.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:58 AM   #36
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RTSes in general echo Mcsweeney's line about "losing everything with very little to show for it." You put in 1-2 hours per single game and for what!? A meaningless coin flip of either "I won" or "I lost." You could levy the same argument against almost any recreational activity, I quite realize; but, for some reason, I feel especially strongly about this with RTSes. After a game of Civ3 or Warcraft 3, I'd almost invariably find myself feeling ashamed and disgusted with just how much of my life I'd just wasted. I don't get that feeling from Mario platformers or Mario Kart or even Pokemon. Lord knows why not.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:01 AM   #37
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1-2 hours per game? O.O;; That game I did was considered super long at a staggering 40 minutes. Matches are usually 10-20, sometimes more or less depending on a lot of factors. Going over 1 hour is exceptionally rare, as you will run out of minerals on the map.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:07 AM   #38
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I watched that 2 vs 2 game you guys played.

Kuno, when you're fighting zealots with roaches, you should always kite them (hit, move away, hit, move away). If you keep doing this, they can never touch you.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
I watched that 2 vs 2 game you guys played.

Kuno, when you're fighting zealots with roaches, you should always kite them (hit, move away, hit, move away). If you keep doing this, they can never touch you.
Yeah I know this now, didn't know it back then. That 2v2 match is very old.

They can sort of keep up off creep/without upgrade though.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:12 AM   #40
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Again: Civ3, Warcraft 3. I have never played Star Craft or Star Craft 2. I can only speak from what I know. In general, I have had a miserable time of playing RTSes.

When I lose: "I just wasted 1 to 2 hours of my life ... and for what? So some A.I. Gandhi could tell me 'gg'!?!?!?!?"

When I win: "I just wasted 1 to 2 hours of my life ... and for what? So I could snag 60-70% of the world surface area and only because the enemy A.I. made some dumb decisions at some crucial points? "

I'm just never left feeling satisfied when I play a game of Civ 3 (which I own but do not have installed on this machine) or Warcraft 3: the Frozen Throne (which I briefly owned from '03 to '04 before I uninstalled it and gave the disc away as a gift to a friend).

To be honest, I think a large part of the problem for me personally is the inability to keep what you've worked so hard for. Again, you could levy similar arguments against games I respect (chess) or actually enjoy (mahjong, Go), but the thing is, you can't levy this argument against a good number of the video games I do enjoy. Super Mario games, from the SNES onward, have allowed you to have save files and have allowed you to backtrack and replay older levels but with the newer power-ups you've acquired from exotic locations in the mid-to-late game areas. (e.g. fly around World 1 with a Blue Yoshi in Super Mario World; or explore every last nook and cranny of a World 2 stage using your P-Wing in Super Mario 3 aboard Super Mario All-Stars). They also allow you to let other people play in your world, i.e. I can hand the controls off to my sister and she can fool around in the world I have so graciously unlocked for her. You can't do the same with Civ 3 because an "unlocked world" is, by its nature, a locked-up world -- once the computer declares Game Over, you're done. No more fooling around. No more point in fooling around.

And platformers are probably my weakest defense. With RPGs like Pokemon, the spoils are clear: sure, you invest hundreds of hours of your life into these "meaningless" games. But! You get a customized team of creatures which you can then use in fights alongside or against friends from around the world. (And that's SUPER fun.) You also got to enjoy a cute little story (Gen1) which has slowly evolved into an epic (Gen2) and even more epic (Gen3) and then sort of retardedly epic (Gen4, lol, "I caught God inside a PokéBall!") story of grand proportions. You load up Pokemon and you see the scars on the earth that your time in-game has wrought. Each Pokemon in your PC is a living testimony to the hours you've invested. You don't get that out of an RTS. RTSes, like chess or like Go, are one-hit wonders. You play a game, and then the board's wiped clean.

Yet even then ... I actually like Go and mahjong. And they're no different than an RTS when it comes to the arguments I've levied. Yet I never feel like I've wasted my life playing those games. Civ3 or Warcraft 3? Absolutely. I feel downright ashamed of myself. "What a fool I am ", I think. "I could have been doing homework, or studying extracurricularly, or hanging out with friends, or dating some girl, or any number of things other than this. But no: I chose to play this. I chose to waste 1-2 hours of my life just so an A.I. Gandhi could tell me 'gg'. "
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:18 AM   #41
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I get what you're saying, at least when you play an RPG you're like, enjoying a story. But with a game that's entirely user generated like Starcraft, the game is the game.

I just get perverse pleasure out of building and managing things, improving the economy etc.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:27 AM   #42
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The single player (at least in sc1) was actually exceptionally good. Story wise at least. They had to do some creative editing for sc2 since they changed some shit, but the story was still ok.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:39 AM   #43
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I thought the Starcraft II story was horrible. Especially the dialogue. Really B movie-like.

There was only one really cool cinematic scene: The intro movie where Tychus gets suited up. I'd say the flashback that shows how Kerrigan was abandoned is good too, but it feels like an inferior rip off of the amazing Starcraft: Brood War intro.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:41 AM   #44
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Yeah I don't like how they changed Jims personality about her at all. Everything else was ok but I don't like how he still loved her or some bs. SC1 completely ruined that trail.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:59 AM   #45
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Boxer update!

There's a big tournament going on in Korea right now called GSL season 2. There's actually a fake Boxer in it, a guy who stole the ID while the real Boxer was still playing Starcraft 1. But now the real Boxer is playing Starcraft II, and he's also in this tournament ...

The interesting thing is that Fake Boxer is actually really strong. He just eliminated FruitDealer, the world's best Zerg player, and the reigning champion from GSL season 1. The real Boxer also advanced to the final group of 16. There's an actual possibility that Boxer and Fake Boxer will fight each other.

I was going to say that you can't make up drama this good, but then I remembered ...

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Old 10-30-2010, 11:15 AM   #46
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LOL. Neat.

And I hope the real Boxer does get a chance to play the imposter and crushes him. It'd be disappointing if they don't get to square off; even worse if Boxer lost.
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:10 PM   #47
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Quote:
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tl;dr
This generally shows you don't like RTS genre. I can understand. It can feel like you went through all that work and it amounts to little more than a digital ranking at best. But this is about the same in most online competitive games including shooters and MMOs.

Essentially if you are extremely competitive and enjoy management and all that other stuff McSweeney mentioned, then Starcraft 2 is your game. If not, GG. lol.

I personally like the rush you get when playing an RTS. As you build up your economy, your technology, and your army, you get a a feeling of anticipation for the coming confrontation. It turns into a total downer if I lose though lol.

Last edited by Loki; 10-30-2010 at 02:38 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:09 PM   #48
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Gotta love how Bronze League is paired off against Platinum and Diamond leaguers. >>;
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:28 AM   #49
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I'm a bit sick of losing with Zerg so much and decided to go back to play Protoss like I did in SC1 days. McSweeney, can you give me pointers? Like how does I use Templar? And Phoenix? And uhhh... Good -toss stuff? lol.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:49 PM   #50
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So you want to be a Brotoss ...

You'll have to figure out a lot of the stuff through experience. If I played with you I could also point out what you're doing wrong. High templars are FOR PROS ONLY. Don't use them in 1 vs 1 until you've practiced with them a lot. 4 vs 4 is great for this because there's loads of units everywhere.

Phoenix are pretty weak, to be honest, and they're also FOR PROS ONLY. You can do some good mineral line harass with them, but it requires a lot of micro, and if they build mineral line defences, it keeps you out forever (unlike mutalisks, where you can just kill towers once you have enough of them). If you take on mutalisks head to head with phoenix, you'll probably lose, because you won't be competitive with his production capacity unless you have UNGODLY micro; Phoenix have 1 range more than them, are faster, and can shoot while moving, so you can shoot at them while keeping just out of range, but this is really damned difficult.

Sometimes I try rushing phoenix against zerg, move out once I have 4, pick up the queen, kill it, pick up and kill as many drones as I can, and then kill every single overlord I can find, but I've rarely been successful. First of all, it leaves you extremely vulnerable to an early game push. Secondly, even if they don't push out, and even though you've done so much damage, they've probably expanded by them or have a lot of ground units and can just counter attack, and you've got like no army to fight them with. If everything falls right though, it's a cute way of winning.

Lately I've been experimenting with walling in the natural expansion, making some photons and fast expanding. Still working out the kinks (as the 8 game losing streak can attest to). It works really really well on Jungle Basin.
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