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Old 10-17-2013, 07:14 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Tyranidos View Post
Obama is a shitty president?! Please say it 10 more times so we fully understand this.



Yeah as a whole, both sides are terrible. It'll likely get to the point where I seriously contemplate moving out of this country.
Maybe he's just bad from a British perspective. Because to most Americans who aren't on the right he's a pretty good one.

I just realized that when I said not on the right I alienated like 90% of Americans...

EDIT: Boston has very few homicides for a city of six hundred thousand.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:09 AM   #102
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No what I meant is that he's extremely bad at the job of being president. His politicking is shite. Granted it's a horrible situation but he squanders what little political capital he gets and struggles with basic tactical play. He's just not a great leader.
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:38 AM   #103
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Oh, that I agree on. He also needs to grow a spine.
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:24 PM   #104
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Oh, that I agree on. He also needs to grow a spine.
Yes but being bad at politicking means he can't get things he wants done (and indeed he's so bad he ends up causing opposition to things he wants purely by wanting them). His intentions and policies are thus mostly irrelevant.

When the Presidential election thread was still up I was only in support of Obama because Romney in particular was so bad. From the perspective of someone inclined to vote left wing in a country already left of yours, the US would probably be in a better state had you elected McCain (or Clinton) in 2008.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:40 PM   #105
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But then Palin would have been an old man's heart attack away from the Oval Office, and that's scary.
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Old 10-27-2013, 04:57 AM   #106
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So in a shocking and unpredictable turn of events which has shocked everyone with how unpredictable it all is, America spies on other countries. This is fairly personally resonant with people like Angela Merkel who grew up under the Stasi and now the French and German governments want no spying deals like the US has with the UK and others. These deals, provide a 100% no spying on each other pinkie promise guarantee, so are naturally highly sought after, in the same way that gold, oil and blue smarties are.

I assume I'm not the only one who said "well, duh", and moved on with my life when this became news?
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Old 10-27-2013, 04:59 AM   #107
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Yeah, I read about Canada doing the same in a newspaper a while back. That was my reaction, too.

Does the populace as a whole really consider spying such a big deal? I considered making a thread about it, but couldn't be bothered.
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Old 10-27-2013, 05:00 AM   #108
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I would have thought that people who remember living in East Germany probably care a bit, but this is all a bit hopelessly naive of her really.
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Old 10-27-2013, 08:33 AM   #109
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It's in the public eye now and thus she's required to appear angry about it. I mean no, America, spying on your allies is not acceptable. But it's also not really surprising that the US government does.
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Old 10-27-2013, 08:45 AM   #110
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Always spy on your allies.
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Old 10-27-2013, 08:46 AM   #111
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+1 to the "Everyone spies on everyone. They just appear super-incensed to the public to maintain image, take the piss out of their allies for getting caught with their espionage pants down, etc." pile.
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:07 PM   #112
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It's not surprising and I feel like Merkel expected that something like this would happen, she just has to look angry at this because it is a serious breach of German national sovereignty regardless of how expected it was.

I would love it if this actually led to interesting things happening between the US and EU but I know it won't because we are both to dependent on each other to really do much beyond berate ambassadors and hold conferences.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:19 AM   #113
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Most people in the U.S. are libetarians, with a tiny twist. Most people in government are more authoritarian.

Americans are extremely polite and tend to follow the rules. If they don't like a rule, rather than break it, they will find some way to circumvent it or fight it legally so it's not a rule anymore.

It's the real reason for the American Revolution. If you Brits had let us fight the rules in your courts, we'd still be self-governing colonies, but you didn't let us

With this in mind, Americans are an interesting blend of authoritarian and libertarian where we're libertarian in principle and in most cases in deed (disliking the idea of regulation, fighting undesirable regulation through conventional means) but will comply with rules if they are passed, making us objectively more authoritarian.

I don't recall ever taking to heart any of the core ideals of fascism. I wouldn't call nationalism the one core component of fascism: that would be 1.) the idea that the whole is more important than the individual, something that describes absolutely no aspect of American society, 2.) rejection of tolerance and acceptance, possibly to the point of genocide - Native Americans don't count, that was manifest destiny not fascism - and 3.) a devotion to a single strong leader, something that was expressly prohibited back in 1789 and still applies to USA. We balance powers, similarly to the Brits only much weaker, and prefer that states make more decision than the federal government.

tl;dr: Our federal laws are authoritarian but on the more local levels, we tend to be more libertarian, and the American mindset is FREEDOM oriented and tends to be against restrictions of any kind; we accept rules anyway as long as they are valid.
The British politics thread is getting off course so I'll respond to this here. I should clarify a couple of things before I start though; firstly, by comparisons to fascism I am not implying Nazism. Fascism was born in Italy, and relatively successfully ran Spain for decades. Italy's fascists objected to pressure from the German government to introduce any anti-jewish measures. So I am not implying ethnic cleansing or Gestapo style bullshit, which were hallmarks specifically of Nazi Germany rather than fascism in general (see also; Stalinist rule of USSR has little to do with communism).

The second thing I should clarify is my response to you saying "prefer that states make more decision than the federal government." This is a typical part of the American denial that it is authoritarian. State governments are, are the name implies, GOVERNMENTS - allowing them to legislate on things does not make you one jot less authoritarian than if you let the federal government legislate on things. This is the key piece of doublethink that lets America claim the bold lie that it's a nation that believes in freedom over authoritarian rule. The obvious comparison is how it's still authoritarian if we let the UK government legislate all over our rights even if we ensure the EU can't go it.

The third thing I should clarify is that devotion to a single strong leader isn't really a hallmark of fascism either so much as Nazism - the Italian (ie the original) fascists were Republicans initially, until they realised that the monarchy was so popular that this stance was losing them votes to their socialist rivals.

So, onto Concept's guide to American pseudo-fascism;
  • Strong sense of national identity and national superiority. Which, inevitably, has lead to America looking down on the rest of the world as inferior.
  • Tradition, shared past - a sense of narrative history. This is one point Americans never understand (and you yourself demonstrated a complete failure to understand it by referring to eighteenth century British politicians as "you" and eighteenth century Americans as "us"). Eighteenth century Americans were people who aren't you, in exactly the same way modern Germans are people who aren't you. You can no more claim pride in the actions of one than the other, because you've had no influence on the actions of either. In fact you've had more influence (and thus a better claim to pride for) the actions of modern day foreigners. Every other western nation understands this. We also understand history is just events that happened at different times, whereas in America - as in fascist countries - it's taught as a narrative, a story that lead a thing you belong to from its beginnings to its superior nation it is today (see point one).
  • Happy for government to dictate traditional morality (State or Federal, it makes precisely no difference). This runs from things like traditional gender roles (in the way financial support/tax breaks are structured to support them) and sexuality to things like most state governments requiring recognition of a higher power before allowing people to take office (religious discrimination enshrined in law).
  • Related to point one, rabid anti-immigrant stance, the fear of national identity being "polluted".
  • Poor-blaming - the general pervasive view that society equips everyone to succeed and thus those who don't deserve their failure (see; objection to "socialist" healthcare and benefits slashing).

In short, it's the jump from "government protecting your rights" (which America thinks it has) to "government preventing people from doing things which have no effect on anyone else" (which you actually have a lot of at state level).

This concludes Concept's annual anti-US rant. Tune in next week for the anti-Britain edition.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:34 AM   #114
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So to move from massive generalisation to pointless speculation, who are we going to see duking it out for the Presidency in 2016? I can't say I've paid attention to American politics this year but I'm told the Republicans are imploding and that Clinton will probably take the Democratic ticket if she goes for it.

Thoughts from more informed sources?
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:46 AM   #115
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So to move from massive generalisation to pointless speculation, who are we going to see duking it out for the Presidency in 2016? I can't say I've paid attention to American politics this year but I'm told the Republicans are imploding and that Clinton will probably take the Democratic ticket if she goes for it.

Thoughts from more informed sources?
Democrats are split over whether Clinton ought to take it or not. She likely will run. If she wins the Democratic primary, then it's probable that the Republicans will field a young star (e.g. Marco Rubio) whom they can advertise as being a Washington outsider unlike Obama and the Clintons. It is with this thought in mind that many Democrats are favoring Elizabeth Warren (Senator?, MA), a Harvard professor-turned-neophyte congresswoman who has been something of a "Webster's bulldog," if we may: intellectual and aggressive when it comes to other congressmen's bullshit. Or so the story goes. I don't really follow politics too closely so *shrug*.

Republicans are split over who to rally behind as well. They liked Christie (governor of NJ) until he said some things after his state was wrecked by a hurricane. Those comments soured more radical Republicans on him but also some moderate ones who worry, because of the radicals' disaffection and the fact that he appeals to more moderate voters, that he won't be able to beat Clinton. Marco Rubio (???, FL) is another one to watch for. He's basically Republican Obama. (Young, relatively attractive / genial, "with it".) Basically everything the Republicans could have hoped Sarah Palin would have been.

Both parties are likely to field a half dozen names for the primaries. It really is a bit too early to tell. Obama was on few radars in 2006. Even in 2007, I think many people thought him less likely to win the ticket than other nominees. We really are just going to have to wait and see.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:49 AM   #116
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I thought Obama was the Republican Obama?

Anyway, thanks for the break down. The names ring a bell in my head but, as I say, I've not been following. I think I can only name about three current State Governors and maybe a dozen in each of the federal chambers. Definitely don't remember who most of Obama's Cabinet is.

Should be an interesting race. First woman in the White House (aside from that time Geena Davis did it)?
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:33 PM   #117
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Republicans are split over who to rally behind as well. They liked Christie (governor of NJ) until he said some things after his state was wrecked by a hurricane. Those comments soured more radical Republicans on him but also some moderate ones who worry
Was this when he said "hey yeah the federal government did a good job helping out with this hurricane"?
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:38 PM   #118
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Was this when he said "hey yeah the federal government did a good job helping out with this hurricane"?
That's the one.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:12 PM   #119
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Warren would never run in 2016, she's too new. Maybe 2020 if the Republicans somehow don't fall apart and manage to pull a win out of America's ass.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:20 PM   #120
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I don't understand why you guys are interested in who's going to be running in two years - there will be nothing but bad choices on both sides and it won't really matter.
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:07 PM   #121
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That's American federal politics.
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:26 PM   #122
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Yes but some choices are slightly less horrific than others. We aren't ready for the Social Democrats to take over yet...
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:09 PM   #123
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That's American federal politics.
Modern republican/democratic (as in system, not party) politics in general?
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:17 PM   #124
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All of it?
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:19 PM   #125
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I hesitate to say all of it, just because one-man rules actually can have drastic policy changes, so they're still bad but the politician actually matters then.
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