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Old 08-25-2011, 06:47 PM   #1
Jaxel
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I can't believe this place is still around...

Wow...
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:53 PM   #2
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Are you the real Jaxel or a figment of my imagination?

Because it seems like whenever I casually mention someone from old UPN (Namek, EK, Chaos) they appear to say "hey" or "wow UPN".

I'm pretty sure I said Jaxel in a post yesterday or the day before. o_O
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:54 PM   #3
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I dont know. Maybe I'm a doppleganger.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:57 PM   #4
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Snap, for a minute or two, I was thinking you might mistake me for Archaic.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:57 PM   #5
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You act like I remember who any of you people are.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:59 PM   #6
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Wow, that was fast! We just finished talking like twenty seconds ago!
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:00 PM   #7
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You don't because I only posted on one of your boards for a month or two, I was far more active on Chaka's and now Kuno's UPN.

Several old time members are still here. Talon, Kuno, McSweeney. Uh, I don't know anyone else, maybe Morg qualifies too.

Also, ChaosRocket x PiccoloNamek shipping is real. Would you believe?
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Also, ChaosRocket x PiccoloNamek shipping is real. Would you believe?
From what I remember about this community... I wouldn't put it past you guys.

I run a Soul Calibur community now.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:02 PM   #9
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Wait, your the guy who ran Universal Pokemon Network, right? Also, nice Soul Calibur website.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite View Post
Wait, your the guy who ran Universal Pokemon Network, right? Also, nice Soul Calibur website.
That would be me... then in August 2000, the internet bubble popped. And then my hosts (the guys who owned the domain) forgot to renew the domain name, and it was picked up by cyber squatters... and everything was lost. Back then, it was costing close to $50 a day to keep the website running (we were #6 on Alexa), so without the internet bubble to pay for it; we just decided not to bring it back up.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:07 PM   #11
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It's young, too.

I envy the youth. I can't post a ten times a minute like I could back in the 56k days. Even considering broad-band internet.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:09 PM   #12
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Youth? I'm 27... just bored... leaving for Summer Jam tomorrow and I'm all prepped and nothing left to do.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:19 PM   #13
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I mean your community is young. I play on a particular browser-based MMORPG for the same reason, there's lots of "energy".

You won't find topics like "Gay or straight" or "You know what really grinds my gears??" here anymore. Or on AP, SPP and BMG, either.

We were, however, privileged to entertain an ObviousTroll in 2010.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:26 PM   #14
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That's awesome. I really appreciate the work you did creating and running UPN in its heyday. It's not nearly as big, but activity is always steady and it's a pretty cool and mature community for the most part.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I mean your community is young. I play on a particular browser-based MMORPG for the same reason, there's lots of "energy".

You won't find topics like "Gay or straight" or "You know what really grinds my gears??" here anymore. Or on AP, SPP and BMG, either.

We were, however, privileged to entertain an ObviousTroll in 2010.
Yeah, for some reason, the communities I run always have a weird statistic... For instance, while the web was 90% male 10 years ago, the audience on my UPNetwork was largely female. Now look at 8WR, it has a very large gay community; maybe its because it's 2011 and people are feeling freer?

The community I run was founded in 2002, it's history is almost as long as UPNetworks. However, the transfer between each era (there have been 4) has not been as "cordial" as it was here at UPN. In fact, doing some vanity searches here on UPN; it seems you guys actually have a high opinion of me.
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Old 08-25-2011, 08:21 PM   #16
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There hasn't been much turn-over here. Outside of UPN I "work" at Arlong Park, the internet's largest One Piece fan forum, and it suffers from a community crisis every few years.

The analogy I use is an "internet chemostat" - a constant fluctuation of new blood into the system that also happens to flush the old blood out before it can evolve and stick around. AP in 2005 was a somewhat small, tightly-knit community, but as One Piece became explosively popular, the older members found themselves marginalized by a community where they hardly knew the posters. It wasn't simply a Dunbar's Number issue either, all mass communities suffered from this. We saw as much during the Pokemon era in Y2K.

By comparison, UPN hasn't lost its identity because membership, like Sequoia redwood trees, grows slowly. This allows the new members who stick around to accomodate to the community, so even if people leave, the "regime" established never really dies. It's just baton passed to others.

Honestly, I miss the days of EK, Clip Clop, Namek, Kasumi Violet and Chaos being here as regulars. Back when I was young and impressionable, those guys were my "senpais" who knew the world better than I did. And I suspect, still do. It's a pot hole that hasn't been filled by city workers in many years.
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Old 08-25-2011, 08:50 PM   #17
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Sup Jaxel. I still remember our ICQ chats with the whole old school crew. Strange to hear you're only actually a few years older than me, dang.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:18 PM   #18
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Yeah, the community I run now works the same way...

During Soul Calibur 2 (2002-2005), we were running at soulcalibur.com. The community was ran, hosted and maintained by Namco directly and they showed an interest in it. Then when Soul Calibur 3 was starting to get announced, Namco shut the forum down and put up some shitty Flash website instead.

So for Soul Calibur 3 (2005-200, we were running at caliburforum.com. The problem is this website is ass; and the people running it had no idea what they were doing. Performance of the server sucked, and the MYI tables on the database would crash every other week.

After the website had been down for 3 straight weeks; I eventually said "wtf and went to the host and told them I could fix their DB issue". So at that point, I went from being a regular member to an admin. The problem was, even though I could fix the DB issues, the server was still ass. So as Soul Calibur 4 neared release, the surge of new users brought us down again.

The week of SC4's release (200, we didn't have a website because the large number of users kept bringing the server down. When we finally got back up, I made a thread talking about getting us a new server and setting up a new website. The existing leadership at caliburforum.com felt very threatened by this (even though I would have retained all positions at my new website) and quickly ousted me from my position.

So because of this, a week later I founded 8WayRun.Com and a war started between the two websites. The leaders at CF made up lies about me, claimed I deleted content and sabotaged the server on the way out. Even though, it was one of their moderators who deleted the content, and I couldn't have sabotaged the server because I didn't have access to it (literally, they wouldn't even give me FTP or direct DB access; I had to relay my SQL commands through them). They also said I hired people to troll their website and banned anyone who used CF from my site (really? thats one of the dumbest things I've ever heard).

During the first 6 months of 8WR's existence (and SC4's release), 8WR was a barren wasteland. Even though it was a better site, there was no way to get people to actually switch websites. That was until CF crashed hard. Naturally, because they didn't have an admin who knew what they were doing, it took them half a week to type "REPAIR post.MYI;" (lol, idiots). During that time, people were forced to go to 8WR and saw how good it was... and never went back to CF after it got back up.

Unfortunately, 6 months of bad leadership at CF took a major toll on the community. Our nationals tournament, which was being orchestrated primarily at CF was falling apart and succumbed to major corruption. And the leaders at CF's, inability to make hard decisions lead to disparity amongst rules and banning for tournaments. So even though I took over leadership of the community; the damage over the first 6 months had already been done.

Now its 2011 and Soul Calibur 5 has been announced. During the failure of SC4, almost every dedicated Soul Calibur website on the next went down. Now we have a large influx of new people coming to 8WR, because there is nowhere else to go. 8WR was always a community for tournament players; but now the tournament players are clashing up against casual players and gamefaqs noobs. It's causing major issues and bad blood between members.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:43 PM   #19
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That sounds like a shitload of drama. UPN is pretty damn mellow, although very quiet.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:51 PM   #20
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That's weird how you sort of re-lived your UPNetwork experience except backwards.
  • UPNetwork you founded as an original enterprise, 8WayRun you founded as an offshoot of CaliberForum.
  • UPNetwork you created right around the time the Pokémon craze was just picking up in America (late winter / early spring 1999 you made the site, summer of that same year you launched the forums, with Pokémon having only just come to America the previous August in the form of syndicated television broadcasts), but 8WayRun you created long after Soul Caliber's heyday.
  • UPNetwork you were the start-up that eventually got supplanted by others (like Serebii), 8WayRun you're the Serebii who has supplanted the older communities!
It's fascinating to read about. But it's cool to hear that you've got a solid site going and that, in the end, your hard efforts were rewarded by simple market forces. All the people needed, as you pointed out, was that little and inevitable push.

I have no clue what corruption stuff you're talking about but I've been out of the fighting circle for too many years now. Sorry to hear that whatever tournament(s) you tried to run were littered with corrupt shit going down. Better luck this coming season.
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Old 08-26-2011, 12:19 AM   #21
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Yeah. 8WayRun is a fraction the size as my UPNetwork was at it's peak; 8WayRun peaks at about 40K pageviews a day... UPNetwork was getting 1.6 MILLION. But then again, not only was advertising different, so were costs. When I was running UPNetwork, it cost about $100 a day to keep the website running at peak. If I were running UPNetwork today, with the same amount of traffic and software, it would probably cost $100 a month.

The corruption in the fighting game communities is insane. The Dead or Alive community the most asinine. But this is what happens when the decisions of the community are made in a "in crowd" type situation, without the community or their interests in mind.

This weekend I'll be live streaming Soul Calibur at Summer Jam 5 in Philadelphia, PA. You can follow the stream here and check it out when we go live: twitch.tv/8wayrun
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Old 08-26-2011, 07:33 AM   #22
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My question though is how does corruption work in a fighting game? I mean like, aren't there tons of people watching the match and so on? I don't really get it. Or is it something other than that. I watch a lot of SC2 esports so this sort of baffles me since it is non existent there.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:19 AM   #23
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I'm curious to know more as well. Much as I love DOA, like I say, I haven't been following the fighting scene for years due to lack of personal investment in the sport (read: no 360 or PS3). I don't remember any corruption back in '06 or '07, just a lot of people complaining about tiering and how DOA:U heavily favored Ayane over most any other character and how (at least in DOA3, people were always saying this, though I didn't think it held as true in U) Tina was the game's most broken character. But that isn't corruption, that's just people nagging that they can't win with their personal favorites. Corruption to me implies:
  • people throwing matches
  • judges making calls which favor one competitor over another
Things like that. But like Kuno says, throwing matches should be pretty obvious; and as for judges, there's really no room for judges when it's the unbiased computer that is ultimately calling the shots in terms of which hits connect and which don't, who input button commands first and who didn't, etc. Would be pretty ridiculous to hack a fighting engine just for the purposes of rigging a competition. So yeah, I'd like to hear what you mean by "corruption" in more specific details. It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I'm having a hard time imagining what sorts of things could be going on. You mentioned the crowd deciding outcomes ... this makes no sense to me. What say does the crowd have in any match-up? None, from what I've seen. I don't know of any fighter where the crowd does anything more than serve as a cheering or booing squad.
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Old 08-26-2011, 11:31 AM   #24
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History of the DOA community by my friend Tom Brady:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnvxQqJyXv4

Basically, DirectTV was broadcasting tournaments for the CGL. They went through the leader of the DOA community to select players to compete in the tournament of what was supposed to be the best players in the world. The leader instead picked 7 scrubs, and 1 good player who was a friend. The good player (who wasn't the best), kicked ass and the two of them split the pot (usually around $10k each time). The corruption you didn't see in '07 was one of the worst cases of corruption out there...

As for the SC4 community, our nationals tournament organizer "lost" $2000 from the pot.
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Old 08-26-2011, 02:06 PM   #25
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Now I see what you're saying. I honestly don't remember that, and I don't know whether that was for lack of personal recognition of the corruption or whether no one really knew what was going on at the time until it came out later. Back in the day, I was not a part of the DOA Central community. I was a pretty prominent member on Neotaku from 2003 to 2004, but not DOA Central. Either way, this is the first I've heard of this. I don't even recognize the particular championship you're citing. The problem with competitive DOA in the mid-2000s, at least in my experience, is that there was no one "cup," per se, but rather lots of competitions held at various conventions, not limited to fighting game conventions on the East Coast.

To be perfectly honest though, Jaxel, if the allegations for corruption are "it's not a representative sample of the very best," I'll say this: even were they to have tried their best (which they didn't) they would still have failed to bring the world's best together into one convention hall. Unless they're willing to pay out of pocket to fly in the very best players from all over the world, any given fighting tournament is going to exhibit regional bias. Even if they claim to be "the Internationals" and have some international representation, they're still going to have a disproportionate number of domestic poorer players and foreign wealthier players. Your average lower-class to middle-class gamer from Japan isn't going to fly out to D.C. and Baltimore twice a year. He just can't do it. So right off the bat, you'll run into problems like that.

Okay, thoughts as I watch these videos ...
Spoiler: show
Your friend has a definite Dallas bias in this video.

LOL @ how they got him though (mentioned in Part 2 of the videos). That's pretty shitty of them. I love the part where he laughs about DOAMaster claiming to have taken a crown he probably already had. However ... this video isn't the "corrupt tourney" you're talking about, is it? >_> 'Cause this sounds more like shitty internal political punking than it sounds like a corrupt tourney.

Hearing the name "DOAMaster", "DOAMaster" constantly over and over reminds me of Neotaku. I keep expecting to hear Brady mention "TheOne" or the name of that one admin who absolutely loved Ayane, but nope.

Listening to Brady explain DOA4 (which I've never played or seen played!) is breaking my heart. It's Part 4 of the video series, very beginning. Really sad to hear that it's become more of a guessing game than it already was and that in Itagaki's attempt to legitimize the paper-rock-scissors aspect of Attack / Counter / Throw it's become paper-rock-scissors even in the hands of the best.

Okay, now he's finally getting to the corruption, it sounds like. (In Part 4.) Here we go ...

The bit at around the 6-to-7 minute mark is touching.

Sounds like he's got a HUGE chip on his shoulder, though, about that trash can thing. Yeah, that was a dick thing of DOA Master to do, but wth, get over it. The whole "I invested MONEY in this community ... I MADE it!" is a bit overstated. Yes, you did invest money. No, you did not single-handedly make this community out of nothingness. Yes, you did have an impact on it. And yes, no one should have talked to you like that or sent you things like that. But ... c'mon, man, get over 'em. (Which is obviously what he does do in the end.)

L-O-L at Video 5! I don't remember this, Jaxel. I think I must have my years off. I probably faded out of following the scene around '05 to '06, not '06 to '07. I don't even have this competition on my memory radar. But L-O-L at this. What a cocky little son of a bitch! hahahahahahaha I love how the tournament only had eight entries. That sort of thing would fly if they were genuinely the eight best in the nation or world, but when they're seven shitty players and then Master? That's such bull. hahahahahahaha

I guess I wouldn't be laughing, though, if I were more invested in this. I can see why Brady must be more angry than amused. It's certainly a slap in Perfect Legend's face.

Okay, now he's ranting about how the community hated him so much. >_> But good for him to (as we know how this ends) turn things around and have the last laugh. Oh man, though, the remainder of Video 5 is just him whining. (Rightfully so! But still! Do we really need to listen to this for five minutes straight?)

LOL @ Vanessa's arrogance. Never even heard of her before. W-O-W at her "Fuck you, Tom Brady! " on camera. Poor bastard. "Is it safe to say you're unstoppable?" "YEAH! " What a bitch.

Wait a minute, WHY THE HELL is he still paying money for tourneys for this community? What's with the "I donated $1,500 of the $2,000 cash pool" talk? WTF, Tom!? That's just insane. That's feeding the pet that bites you.

That's awful when they accused him of attempting date rape. Fuckin' hate that shit. It's not a joke, the man's pretty much Guilty in the eyes of anyone who already doesn't know him or like him when an accusation like that is levied ... it really should be made a special criminal case of slander or libel. People should not feel that they are free to wrongly accuse others of rape, date rape, etc. Ridiculous. Poor Tom.

Kinda sad to hear that the DOA fans have their heads up their butts. I love DOA, like I said, it's my favorite 3D fighter, but it is nowhere near the most hardcore fighter. Of the 3D fighters, it's the closest one to being the bicycle with training wheels or the bowling alley with bumpers. Then again, that doesn't necessarily make it bad or mean that it can't have a significant fighting scene.

Still, I have a hard time enjoying the 3D fighting scene as much as the 2D scene. SF4 has bridged the gap for me but in the end I find myself respecting most, and being most fascinated by, Guilty Gear [and similar]'s scene as opposed to VF's, Tekken's, or others'. Tom may not like the juggles/dustings or the heavy emphasis on hidden combos, but I really enjoy GG.

Also, I think this Youtube commenter puts it into better words than I can why Tom may be right but why I still enjoy DOA:

"Sounds to me like the top tier of the community is broken, not the game. I happened to enjoy DOA4 a whole lot, and I never understood the negative comments about the game itself - not then, not now. I play Tekken at a fairly high level now, but I find myself missing DOA very often."

Change "DOA4" to "DOA:U", "Tekken" to "GG", and "fairly high level" to "middling at best " and you'd have me. I'm no good, but I enjoy it well enough. But I still miss DOA. It was a fun fighter. Great stages, very beautiful-looking game, loved the realism of the martial arts feel in that game and the lack of fireballs or weapons or (lol MK) body maimings that ought to incapacitate a combattant right then and there.

I'll confess: if I get a next-gen console, just knowing that you run a Soul Caliber site, Jason, has me interested in giving the game a look. I've actually never owned an SC, not one, only having played 2 and 3 at friends' houses. Was never really interested in SC's heavy emphasis on Ring Outs. Didn't care for its lore or characters much either. (Half of DOA's characters may suck balls, but the half that don't really carry the franchise for me.) But ... I'm interested in giving it a try. It would be fun to be in an active fighter community. Only problem is, I wouldn't be paying for XBL should I get a 360 and I doubt you guys would want to run it off of the PSN were I to get a PS3, soo.... I doubt I could play online with you guys anyway. If XBL were like $5/mo, then maybe.
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