11-09-2016, 10:19 AM | #2876 | |
時の彼方へ
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11-09-2016, 10:28 AM | #2877 |
a quick fly cuppa
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Well, on the bright side it's only America that's fucked, rather than the entire world under the Clintons for another four years.
From my view, this vote was America's chance to give the biggest middle finger to the Establishment, to the bankers, to the big corporates, to the elitist percentile, and they've taken it. Meanwhile we over in those isles also undergoing political turmoil regarding the EU are all cackling at the results of these elections in the same way people cackle at a good old fuck up. God bless America! And damn, will you guys and gals need God. |
11-09-2016, 10:45 AM | #2878 | |
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The real middle finger to Wall Street would have been Bernie. The white working class could have gotten behind a man promising better welfare and tax reform disfavorable to the wealthy, while the liberal college-educated America was behind him for other reasons like social equality and student loan forgiveness. Trump may be many Americans' attempt at a middle finger, I don't deny you that. But I just fail to see how his election translates into one, into an actual, functioning middle finger to the corporate elite and money launderers. I dunno. We'll see. Maybe Mozz can shed some light on this one.
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11-09-2016, 10:51 AM | #2879 | ||
Problematic Fave
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I was talking with my mom (who worked on the Hill) and we agreed that most of the reason that Trump ended up elected is because:
1. People feel attacked and silenced by the Democratic establishment. Trump showed up, said stuff, got attacked and silenced. Said stuff louder, got attacked. If you say positive things in the Debate thread about Trump, you get attacked and silenced. Spoiler alert: that hands Trump votes. Yes, this is a White Midwestern Republican thing, but it's also a Hispanic Republican and Black Republican thing. 2. Trump had a surprising advantage among women. When running against a woman, he earned 42% of the women's vote: less than Republicans earned in previous years, but definitely more than he could reasonably be expected to get considering he was running against a woman. 3. With hindsight, Trump did more to defend against accusations of racism than Hillary did accusations of corruption. If people say "Is Trump a racist?" you'll get people going "well no not really," whereas if people say "Did Hillary have a private email server that held classified information?" you'll get people going "well yes, but." Trump understood that significantly better than Hillary did. 4. America is not already great right now. We lost our AAA rating years ago. 13% of black men do not have the right to vote, a figure which did not change over the 8 years of Obama's presidency (which Trump tapped into during the debates, claiming "she will not do anything"). The wages of most white people did not rise 1 cent during the last decade. Things are stagnant and it sucks. Trump wants to #MAGA and Hillary wants to get elected. Can you see why more of the country would favor Trump over Clinton? Quote:
https://thinkprogress.org/donald-tru...9b0#.j9o2pga5l Quote:
Even if your worst fears come to pass, the white working class voters who elected Trump do not care about transgender issues. You'll see mostly Mozzes among them; small business owners afraid of restrictions and rising wages, energy workers afraid of regulations to their industry that will prevent them from making a living wages, etc. etc. These people do not care about transgender issues, they care about their paychecks. You are no less safe with Trump as president as you are with Clinton or Bernie as president. If Cruz got elected, that would be another thing, and I would agree with you, but Trump is actually on your side on this one while Clinton is not. Put up (using a legitimate and well-put-together argument with strong evidence) or accept that the better candidate for transgender people just got elected and that you have basically nothing to worry about.
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11-09-2016, 10:59 AM | #2880 | ||
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From Forbes: Quote:
If you'd like to know a few reasons:
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11-09-2016, 11:05 AM | #2881 |
我が名は勇者王!
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Also, I don't think there was ever a time where people cared about social justice more than economics. Even the Founding Fathers' chequebooks were mostly spoken for as they came from wealthy backgrounds, allowing them ample leisure time to engage in Enlightenment philosophy. The average working joe who fought in the Revolution saw it as a fight against taxes and tyranny, their cause was not for natural rights.
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11-09-2016, 11:08 AM | #2882 | |
Ducks gonna duck
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And ignoring Trump's presence on the global stage and planned actions (he's on record advocating war crimes), this is an incredibly short-sighted approach. |
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11-09-2016, 11:33 AM | #2883 | |
我が名は勇者王!
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So it looks like we narrowly avoided global armageddon in electing Trump:
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That's comforting.
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11-09-2016, 11:41 AM | #2884 |
The hostess with the mostess
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Is this really a surprise? Clinton is the hawkiest hawk that ever hawked.
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11-09-2016, 11:51 AM | #2885 | ||
Getting married! :D
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Good article indeed though. And true for most of the western world I imagine. Quote:
He might want to close loopholes to prevent others from using them, but I won't be surprised if he opens up others for himself and/or his family to exploit. And that said, sure he cares about big business and the business elite. Maybe not on a person-to-person basis, but certainly as "class" (for lack of better word) cause he and his family belong to it themselves. And I don't think he's out to hurt himself or his family financially. One thing I'll give him though, better relations with Russia will help the world further a lot more than continuously fighting them. And I hope Europe will realize that too at some point.
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11-09-2016, 12:09 PM | #2886 | |||
Archbishop of Banterbury
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The choice was between someone probably selling their political integrity and someone who was buying it. Somehow, I don't see a meaningful difference there. Quote:
On a side note, I said several positive things about Trump as various points (not enough to outweigh the copious negatives, in my mind, but I did) without getting "attacked and silenced". Watching Trumps plans for... most of anything, really, being repeatedly shot down by wide consensus of expert opinion* and then continuing to voice support for those same plans is rather the equivalent of being told by a ton of doctors "yeah you have X and should do Y about it" and deciding "I think it's actually a purpleness of my aura, imma take powdered root of Xander to return it to its natural orange hue". Why we're fine requiring doctors to train for years and get their degree and whatnot before practicing medicine but don't view even a rudimentary grasp of foreign policy or economics a necessity to be in charge of those things for an entire nation boggles the mind, it really does. *Our opinions =/= expert opinions, but I try to advocate and vote in favour of expert opinions even if - especially if - I don't understand the argument those experts are making myself.
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11-09-2016, 12:18 PM | #2887 | |
Golden Wang of Justice
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Trump is a wild-card. Will he repeal Dodd-Frank? Will he change the hedge fund loophole? Will be block or limit H1B visa holders? Will he completely re-overhaul the health-care industry? Will he institute a Wall St. transactional tax? What will he do with trade deals, that typically favor connected big businesses? Holy shit, we can't buy access to him like we have most other Presidents? When the auto loan crisis hits, will Trump bail anyone out? When the student loan crisis hits, will Trump bail anyone out? HRC was business as usual, and Wall St. could just rely on the last 25+ years of politicians to see what would happen under X situation. Trump is a wild-card. Finance hates uncertainty.
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Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website. |
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11-09-2016, 12:22 PM | #2888 | |
時の彼方へ
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An interesting read: an Imgurian details why he knew Trump would win. It's pretty thoughtful, whether you believe in his powers of prognostication or not, and he's promised to share more later. At the very least, I will be interested to read his and others' thoughts on this:
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11-09-2016, 12:29 PM | #2889 | |
Aroma Lady
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The problem however is his VP, Mike Pence. Trump has also said that he'd leave a lot of stuff to his VP so he can concentrate on making America great again. And like you said, the duped middle class don't give a damn about transrights one way or another so this might very well be something that Mike Pence gets a say in and that's why people are afraid, not Trump himself. |
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11-09-2016, 12:40 PM | #2890 |
Caffeinated
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Welp, we're boned.
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Life, but a series of paths and flows Down many one can go May yours run smoothly and be soft to your feet |
11-09-2016, 12:42 PM | #2891 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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Shuckle I'm not afraid of Trump, I'm afraid of Pence and the social conservative movement he has just validated. Granted, I no longer want to argue about this to you, because you continually have dismissed me in this regard. I'm scared about the Senate and the House and the potential for Pence to be the voice for LGBT discrimination. And before you say anything, yes, Pence has probably been one of the worst people ever for LGBT people. Trump himself may not be bad, but he also probably doesn't care on the matter too much, and that apathy worries me. I'm going to ask that you not reply to this. I believe that things are going to be worse for LGBT people, and it has little to do with Trump the candidate himself. If you can't understand that, whatever. Have fun with your choice for Pres.
What I want to do now is prepare for 2018. I want to make sure that our state government doesn't go red, because that could potentially be bad. I want to make sure that the Senators and House Reps I respect stay in office.
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11-09-2016, 01:17 PM | #2892 |
Ducks gonna duck
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Thoughts on Obama's address/Clinton's concession?
I found it all pretty spineless to be honest. |
11-09-2016, 01:29 PM | #2893 |
The hostess with the mostess
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Interesting read, Talon.
Clinton sounded more human than ever before. If she was like that the entire race things would have been different. |
11-09-2016, 01:31 PM | #2894 | ||
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Second, that's a pretty legitimate argument...but I think it ignores the fact that Trump apparently does care about LGBT issues. As the article I linked noted, he's most likely going to try to headlock the Republican Party into doing things he wants (LGBT rights, help for minorities, closing loopholes, universal health care, etc.) by offering them in nice little Republican-shaped packages - and the series of articles I looked at seems to support the idea that he picked Mike Pence for that exact reason. Mike Pence is not a voice, he is a bridge. Trump is not just letting him run free to set up whatever religious bills he wants, he is using him to keep the Republican Party happy while he does things that they would usually not be happy about. Nobody understands image better than Donald Fucking Trump. Third, I am trying not to dismiss your concerns. I know I come across as challenging your points, but you've posted a lot about how electing Trump is bad for you, then moved the line in the sand further and further back so that you can continue to hold that opinion. First you talk about how Trump is bad because he is a bigot. Then you talk about how he wants to sign the FADA. Then you talk about how his supporters are bigots. Now you're talking about how his VP is a bigot. I honestly don't feel like these shifting arguments are a result of me dismissing your points. I usually address these arguments pretty head-on, actually. And the plain truth of the matter is that Trump himself is supportive of trans rights, and that will lead to improvements for trans rights in the future. I know it's scary to trust that Republicans will help you, but that's what seems to be happening right now. Better to roll with it and maybe even be grateful, since that means that Republican voters might actually show sympathy to your cause for a change. And if things don't go as I predict, then please, feel free to slap me with the biggest, fattest "I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO" in history. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut thinking back, I'm like 75% sure that everything has gone as I predicted. With the exception of "Hillary's gonna win" and "Hillary helped out BLM" (she should have helped out BLM though, would have helped her campaign and her numbers a lot and kept them from becoming domestic terrorists who fucking shoot police officers). Quote:
I think I've talked about why specific policy plans aren't as important during the election as they are after the election. Whether or not Trump builds a wall is immaterial. Hell, Trump supporters don't even think he'll build a physical wall. What matters is: 1. He recognized a problem the people were experiencing 2. He was unafraid to offer a bold solution 3. He yelled that solution in plain language as loudly as possible Bloodless victory. Trump wins among people who care deeply about immigration, and Hillary can't do anything about it; she has to fight somewhere else. Really what the people care about is that their problem is solved, and even if that means stronger border patrol and smarter legal immigration policies instead of a wall, those people know that Trump is going to do it. And he will! Same with the law&order speech, same with the "nasty women" speech, same with "bad hombres," same with "the woman card," same with any other sound bite you care to name. Trump practically followed a fucking formula here. Pick a problem that was discussed in the debate and Trump has a solution to it. It doesn't have to be a good solution, it just has to be a bold solution that people can say "Wow! That's a pretty fucking strong solution! I didn't think we would go 0-100 like that but hey, this guy has the right idea! This problem is IMPORTANT to me, and I care a lot about getting it fixed as fast as possible!" Compare this to Hillary. What problems did she identify? What solutions did she offer? How understandable was her language? Compare to Bernie on the other hand: "I'm gonna make college free." 1. Recognize the problem 2. Offer a bold solution 3. Yell that solution in easily-understood language as loudly as possible Who gives a fuck if it's "free" in the sense that student loans are easier to pay for and less punishing to hold? Who gives a fuck if it's not "free" but instead "affordable?" Who gives a fuck if it just means that there will be more and better-paying jobs for college grads? BERNIE'S GONNA DO IT!
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11-09-2016, 03:29 PM | #2895 |
Primordial Fishbeast
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Via WhatsApp:
Kush was wrong about everything! |
11-09-2016, 03:37 PM | #2896 |
The hostess with the mostess
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11-09-2016, 03:41 PM | #2897 | |
Problematic Fave
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11-09-2016, 04:04 PM | #2898 |
Problematic Fave
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Exit polls, for your personal perusal.
Remember: These results are "Of the people who answered [THING], Blue% voted Hillary, Red% voted Trump, and Gray% voted Independent." Interpret them only in this way. Hard numbers are I guess not available. It's therefore not possible to just look at the red and blue proportions and guess at who did better overall. For example, only 10% of the population is LGBT, so that bar is just an interesting look at the demographic, not a meaningful percentage of the vote. ALSO, please remember that these proportions are self-selected, so you can't make the claim that 78% of LGBT people want Hillary in office. The number is probably a lot lower than that, it's just that most of the LGBT people who voted did so because they were afraid of Donald Trump/Mike Pence or legitimately believed that Clinton was the better candidate for their LGBT identities.
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11-09-2016, 04:34 PM | #2899 | |
Getting married! :D
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11-09-2016, 04:38 PM | #2900 | |
時の彼方へ
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I will keep reading though, because you said it's a good read. 1 Indirectly, yes. Through actions like mine (primary vote for Sanders, write-in rejection of Clinton). Or through actions like half the voters' (voting Trump because FUCK YOU DNC).
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