UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-09-2016, 10:19 AM   #2876
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Did something happen just now? Last I checked, Duterte threw his towel in with Trump and was criticizing Obama, and was trying to distance the Philippines away from Obamerica.
Oh, it's nothing new he's done. Rather, I expect him to make some bombastic latest remark about America and it's going to blow up in his face when Trump responds in kind with equal bombast.

And he should be glad not bomb blast. *ba dum tish*
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 10:28 AM   #2877
Raves
a quick fly cuppa
 
Raves's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Life and love make fools of us all. Gods reject the existence of love and life.
Posts: 2,452
Send a message via Skype™ to Raves
Well, on the bright side it's only America that's fucked, rather than the entire world under the Clintons for another four years.

From my view, this vote was America's chance to give the biggest middle finger to the Establishment, to the bankers, to the big corporates, to the elitist percentile, and they've taken it.

Meanwhile we over in those isles also undergoing political turmoil regarding the EU are all cackling at the results of these elections in the same way people cackle at a good old fuck up. God bless America!

And damn, will you guys and gals need God.
__________________
Stale Water.

Unruly Premonition.
Raves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 10:45 AM   #2878
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raves View Post
From my view, this vote was America's chance to give the biggest middle finger to the Establishment, to the bankers, to the big corporates, to the elitist percentile, and they've taken it.
See, I don't understand this. How is Trump a middle finger to anyone aside from the Republican Party's ensconced leaders? How is it a middle finger to bankers or corporations? Trump himself has worked alongside bankers for decades. Trump himself has run businesses for half a century.

The real middle finger to Wall Street would have been Bernie. The white working class could have gotten behind a man promising better welfare and tax reform disfavorable to the wealthy, while the liberal college-educated America was behind him for other reasons like social equality and student loan forgiveness.

Trump may be many Americans' attempt at a middle finger, I don't deny you that. But I just fail to see how his election translates into one, into an actual, functioning middle finger to the corporate elite and money launderers.

I dunno. We'll see. Maybe Mozz can shed some light on this one.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 10:51 AM   #2879
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
I was talking with my mom (who worked on the Hill) and we agreed that most of the reason that Trump ended up elected is because:

1. People feel attacked and silenced by the Democratic establishment. Trump showed up, said stuff, got attacked and silenced. Said stuff louder, got attacked. If you say positive things in the Debate thread about Trump, you get attacked and silenced. Spoiler alert: that hands Trump votes. Yes, this is a White Midwestern Republican thing, but it's also a Hispanic Republican and Black Republican thing.

2. Trump had a surprising advantage among women. When running against a woman, he earned 42% of the women's vote: less than Republicans earned in previous years, but definitely more than he could reasonably be expected to get considering he was running against a woman.

3. With hindsight, Trump did more to defend against accusations of racism than Hillary did accusations of corruption. If people say "Is Trump a racist?" you'll get people going "well no not really," whereas if people say "Did Hillary have a private email server that held classified information?" you'll get people going "well yes, but." Trump understood that significantly better than Hillary did.

4. America is not already great right now. We lost our AAA rating years ago. 13% of black men do not have the right to vote, a figure which did not change over the 8 years of Obama's presidency (which Trump tapped into during the debates, claiming "she will not do anything"). The wages of most white people did not rise 1 cent during the last decade. Things are stagnant and it sucks. Trump wants to #MAGA and Hillary wants to get elected. Can you see why more of the country would favor Trump over Clinton?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Honestly I couldn't give a fucking damn about the right of religion and I feel pretty strongly that religion needs to sod off for the rest of human existence. Better hope I pass well if I ever travel anywhere right?
Emi, Hillary made zero promises about transgender rights (according to a site called "transadvocate.com"). Donald "You’ve got to protect all people, even though it’s a tiny percentage of 1 percent. I think from that standpoint, [states] should come up with a policy that’s going to work for everybody and protect people" Trump is probably the better choice for your vote.

https://thinkprogress.org/donald-tru...9b0#.j9o2pga5l

Quote:
He seems to agree with Democrats on what the outcome should be (trans protections), but he will cater to the Republican approach (state policies) to arrive at that outcome.
If the worst assault that an opinion piece from a site called "Thinkprogress.org" can come up with is "This means that he doesn't have a position at all," and the worst insult you can come up with is "he supports religious freedom," that means that you don't have a leg to stand on here, Emi.

Even if your worst fears come to pass, the white working class voters who elected Trump do not care about transgender issues. You'll see mostly Mozzes among them; small business owners afraid of restrictions and rising wages, energy workers afraid of regulations to their industry that will prevent them from making a living wages, etc. etc. These people do not care about transgender issues, they care about their paychecks. You are no less safe with Trump as president as you are with Clinton or Bernie as president. If Cruz got elected, that would be another thing, and I would agree with you, but Trump is actually on your side on this one while Clinton is not.

Put up (using a legitimate and well-put-together argument with strong evidence) or accept that the better candidate for transgender people just got elected and that you have basically nothing to worry about.
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 10:59 AM   #2880
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
See, I don't understand this. How is Trump a middle finger to anyone aside from the Republican Party's ensconced leaders? How is it a middle finger to bankers or corporations? Trump himself has worked alongside bankers for decades. Trump himself has run businesses for half a century.

The real middle finger to Wall Street would have been Bernie. The white working class could have gotten behind a man promising better welfare and tax reform disfavorable to the wealthy, while the liberal college-educated America was behind him for other reasons like social equality and student loan forgiveness.

Trump may be many Americans' attempt at a middle finger, I don't deny you that. But I just fail to see how his election translates into one, into an actual, functioning middle finger to the corporate elite and money launderers.

I dunno. We'll see. Maybe Mozz can shed some light on this one.
ME! ME! PICK ME!

From Forbes:
Quote:
Given the unpredictable nature of Trump, it’s hard to see what he will do. Although himself a businessman, he was opposed overwhelmingly by his own class. Clinton won more support from big business and the business elite. If you had a billionaire primary, Clinton would have won by as much as 20 to 1.

Initially many of those business interests closest to both Obama and Clinton — Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood — will be on the outside looking in. Their advantages from tax avoidance could be lessened. Merger-mania, yet another form of asset inflation, will continue unabated, particularly in the tech and media space.

The clear challenge for (I can’t believe I am writing these words) President Trump will not be so much to punish these enemies, but to embrace those people — largely middle class, suburban, small town and white — who are not part of his world, but made him President. If he embraces his role as a radical reformer, he could do much good, for example with a flatter tax system, restoring federalism, seizing the advantage of the energy revolution and reviving military preparedness.

The question is whether he will, or is capable, of doing these things. A Hillary Clinton administration would have been safer, and predictable, but it would not have addressed the very things that made Americans turn to this bizarre political poseur. Now it’s up to Trump to live up to his promise to restore the country’s self-confidence, and, for the rest of us, to make sure he does it in accordance with the Constitution and basic decency.
This is where the argument ends, conclusively. Big businesses do their research into political candidates and show support for the candidate that holds policies favorable to their interests. This is part of the fallacy that leads people to believe that corporations control congress; they simply cast their votes using funding, rather than going to the ballots.

If you'd like to know a few reasons:
  1. Did not accept funding from big businesses, showing that he does not wish to cater to corporate lobbyists
  2. Favors the middle and working class, with no mention or care towards business elites
  3. Is poised to close corporate loopholes and block people from taking shortcuts to wealth (hi Bernie!) while forcing corporations to bring their assets back to America where they can be taxed at the American rate. (I mentioned this when I talked about Trump's tax plan. Everyone whined about how poor people already pay 0 taxes and ignored why the plan might be terrifying to huge global corporations.)
  4. Though he is ultra-rich himself, he tossed his entire business away to his children (who he trained himself to run businesses well), which means he doesn't give a single solitary flying fuck about big business anymore and has talked about how he knows the abuses and loopholes that led to those big businesses seizing so much power...and wants to close them for good. That makes him dangerous to the Apples and Walmarts of the country.
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:05 AM   #2881
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Also, I don't think there was ever a time where people cared about social justice more than economics. Even the Founding Fathers' chequebooks were mostly spoken for as they came from wealthy backgrounds, allowing them ample leisure time to engage in Enlightenment philosophy. The average working joe who fought in the Revolution saw it as a fight against taxes and tyranny, their cause was not for natural rights.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:08 AM   #2882
SoS
Ducks gonna duck
 
SoS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raves View Post
Well, on the bright side it's only America that's fucked, rather than the entire world under the Clintons for another four years.
You know he'll have the nuclear codes right

And ignoring Trump's presence on the global stage and planned actions (he's on record advocating war crimes), this is an incredibly short-sighted approach.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Why are you always a pretty princess?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son_of_Shadows View Post
Because I look damn good in a dress.
Fizzy Bubbles Team
PASBL
Wild Future
SoS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:33 AM   #2883
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
So it looks like we narrowly avoided global armageddon in electing Trump:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo Finance
Russian President Vladimir Putin has sent a telegram to congratulate U.S. President-elect Donald Trump on his victory over Hillary Clinton.

According to a statement from the Kremlin Wednesday, Putin said he hoped the “crisis” in U.S.-Russia relations would come to an end, and the countries would work together to resolve international challenges.

The Kremlin said: “In a telegram, Putin expressed hope toward joint work to lift Russian-U.S. relations from the state of crisis, as well as to address the pressing issues of the international agenda, and the search for effective responses to global security challenges.”

The Russian President said he looked forward to engaging in constructive dialogue with Washington, based on mutual respect. “It is important to act according to the principles of equality, mutual respect and taking account of each other’s positions,” Putin said.

Earlier on Wednesday, Sergei Glazyev, one of Putin’s advisers, said relations between Russia and the U.S. would be reset following Trump’s victory. “The Americans objectively have two choices: either another world war or consent to a multipolar world. Clinton was a symbol of World War III, but Trump now has an opportunity to change this situation,” he said.
So. It looks like the Russians planned for World War III had this outcome not happened.

That's comforting.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:41 AM   #2884
Lady Kuno
The hostess with the mostess
 
Lady Kuno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 226,522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
So. It looks like the Russians planned for World War III had this outcome not happened.
Is this really a surprise? Clinton is the hawkiest hawk that ever hawked.
__________________
JUST NUKE THE FUCKING SUN


PROUD OWNER OF A MISSINGNO. IN FIZZY BUBBLES
Lady Kuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:51 AM   #2885
Escalion
Getting married! :D
 
Escalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,158
Send a message via Skype™ to Escalion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Kuno View Post
Popular vote doesn't mean a lot here. Maybe if EV were closer or something, but Trump got this one pretty solidly.

Anyway, here's a really good article about the election. Which is surprising cause it's on Cracked.

How Half Of America Lost Its F**king Mind
I know, but a "democracy" in which it doesn't matter who gets more votes, where votes don't count equally, and where lots of votes don't count at all, you can't call that a democracy and be serious about it. Isn't there anyone in US politics who wants to do something about it? Like change the entire system?

Good article indeed though. And true for most of the western world I imagine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
  1. Did not accept funding from big businesses, showing that he does not wish to cater to corporate lobbyists
  2. Favors the middle and working class, with no mention or care towards business elites
  3. Is poised to close corporate loopholes and block people from taking shortcuts to wealth (hi Bernie!) while forcing corporations to bring their assets back to America where they can be taxed at the American rate. (I mentioned this when I talked about Trump's tax plan. Everyone whined about how poor people already pay 0 taxes and ignored why the plan might be terrifying to huge global corporations.)
  4. Though he is ultra-rich himself, he tossed his entire business away to his children (who he trained himself to run businesses well), which means he doesn't give a single solitary flying fuck about big business anymore and has talked about how he knows the abuses and loopholes that led to those big businesses seizing so much power...and wants to close them for good. That makes him dangerous to the Apples and Walmarts of the country.
Lol, you really think that?

He might want to close loopholes to prevent others from using them, but I won't be surprised if he opens up others for himself and/or his family to exploit. And that said, sure he cares about big business and the business elite. Maybe not on a person-to-person basis, but certainly as "class" (for lack of better word) cause he and his family belong to it themselves. And I don't think he's out to hurt himself or his family financially.


One thing I'll give him though, better relations with Russia will help the world further a lot more than continuously fighting them. And I hope Europe will realize that too at some point.
__________________
Escalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:09 PM   #2886
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 7,030
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raves View Post
From my view, this vote was America's chance to give the biggest middle finger to the Establishment, to the bankers, to the big corporates, to the elitist percentile, and they've taken it.
So to give the finger to big corporate, to the elitist percentile you... elect it? Look at the decades Trump's spent cosying up to the Clintons (amongst other politicians), the dodgy tax deals. Let's face it; if we're talking about the "Establishment" as career politicians and the wealthy special interests that use money to leverage influence for their own selfish benefit, Trump is as establishment as it gets.

The choice was between someone probably selling their political integrity and someone who was buying it. Somehow, I don't see a meaningful difference there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
1. People feel attacked and silenced by the Democratic establishment. Trump showed up, said stuff, got attacked and silenced. Said stuff louder, got attacked. If you say positive things in the Debate thread about Trump, you get attacked and silenced. Spoiler alert: that hands Trump votes. Yes, this is a White Midwestern Republican thing, but it's also a Hispanic Republican and Black Republican thing.
I mean, this is more a human thing than a Republican thing (see also; "lock her up" and "nasty woman" garnering support for Clinton).

On a side note, I said several positive things about Trump as various points (not enough to outweigh the copious negatives, in my mind, but I did) without getting "attacked and silenced". Watching Trumps plans for... most of anything, really, being repeatedly shot down by wide consensus of expert opinion* and then continuing to voice support for those same plans is rather the equivalent of being told by a ton of doctors "yeah you have X and should do Y about it" and deciding "I think it's actually a purpleness of my aura, imma take powdered root of Xander to return it to its natural orange hue".

Why we're fine requiring doctors to train for years and get their degree and whatnot before practicing medicine but don't view even a rudimentary grasp of foreign policy or economics a necessity to be in charge of those things for an entire nation boggles the mind, it really does.

*Our opinions =/= expert opinions, but I try to advocate and vote in favour of expert opinions even if - especially if - I don't understand the argument those experts are making myself.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:18 PM   #2887
Mozz
Golden Wang of Justice
 
Mozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escalion View Post
Lol, you really think that?

He might want to close loopholes to prevent others from using them, but I won't be surprised if he opens up others for himself and/or his family to exploit. And that said, sure he cares about big business and the business elite. Maybe not on a person-to-person basis, but certainly as "class" (for lack of better word) cause he and his family belong to it themselves. And I don't think he's out to hurt himself or his family financially.


One thing I'll give him though, better relations with Russia will help the world further a lot more than continuously fighting them. And I hope Europe will realize that too at some point.
From someone who actually works on Wall St., I'll just echo Shuckle's post.

Trump is a wild-card. Will he repeal Dodd-Frank? Will he change the hedge fund loophole? Will be block or limit H1B visa holders? Will he completely re-overhaul the health-care industry? Will he institute a Wall St. transactional tax? What will he do with trade deals, that typically favor connected big businesses? Holy shit, we can't buy access to him like we have most other Presidents? When the auto loan crisis hits, will Trump bail anyone out? When the student loan crisis hits, will Trump bail anyone out?

HRC was business as usual, and Wall St. could just rely on the last 25+ years of politicians to see what would happen under X situation. Trump is a wild-card. Finance hates uncertainty.
__________________
Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website.
Mozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:22 PM   #2888
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
An interesting read: an Imgurian details why he knew Trump would win. It's pretty thoughtful, whether you believe in his powers of prognostication or not, and he's promised to share more later. At the very least, I will be interested to read his and others' thoughts on this:

Quote:
There's plenty to talk about. How Trump had more Hispanic voters than any Republican in history, how Trump had more LGBT voters than any Republican in history (even though his VP is the biggest anti-LGBT in politics), or how Trump ended up with 48% of the woman vote even after those Access Hollywood tapes.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:29 PM   #2889
Selena
Aroma Lady
 
Selena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post

Put up (using a legitimate and well-put-together argument with strong evidence) or accept that the better candidate for transgender people just got elected and that you have basically nothing to worry about.
Beleive it or not I agree that Trump himself is nothing to worry about when it comes to transgender rights and might even be the better candidate. I mean a republican who on the record said that "In my buildings people use the bathroom they dang please" is pretty promising.

The problem however is his VP, Mike Pence. Trump has also said that he'd leave a lot of stuff to his VP so he can concentrate on making America great again. And like you said, the duped middle class don't give a damn about transrights one way or another so this might very well be something that Mike Pence gets a say in and that's why people are afraid, not Trump himself.
__________________
Trainer level 3: 53 KO \\ 187 TP \\ 37.5 SP
21 win 29 loss 1 draw (17/21/1 Without DQ)

B- grade ref.
Quote:
Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite View Post
Shouldn’t the Hoff be doing something if he’s still around? I have strict rules about leaving the pool, and I’m sure vanishing the pool out of existence breaks those rules in some way :P
Selena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:40 PM   #2890
Zelphon
Caffeinated
 
Zelphon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Bed
Posts: 2,788
Send a message via Skype™ to Zelphon
Welp, we're boned.
__________________
Life, but a series of paths and flows
Down many one can go
May yours run smoothly and be soft to your feet

Zelphon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:42 PM   #2891
Emi
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
 
Emi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12,068
Send a message via Skype™ to Emi
Shuckle I'm not afraid of Trump, I'm afraid of Pence and the social conservative movement he has just validated. Granted, I no longer want to argue about this to you, because you continually have dismissed me in this regard. I'm scared about the Senate and the House and the potential for Pence to be the voice for LGBT discrimination. And before you say anything, yes, Pence has probably been one of the worst people ever for LGBT people. Trump himself may not be bad, but he also probably doesn't care on the matter too much, and that apathy worries me. I'm going to ask that you not reply to this. I believe that things are going to be worse for LGBT people, and it has little to do with Trump the candidate himself. If you can't understand that, whatever. Have fun with your choice for Pres.

What I want to do now is prepare for 2018. I want to make sure that our state government doesn't go red, because that could potentially be bad. I want to make sure that the Senators and House Reps I respect stay in office.
__________________
Emi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 01:17 PM   #2892
SoS
Ducks gonna duck
 
SoS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,824
Thoughts on Obama's address/Clinton's concession?

I found it all pretty spineless to be honest.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Why are you always a pretty princess?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son_of_Shadows View Post
Because I look damn good in a dress.
Fizzy Bubbles Team
PASBL
Wild Future
SoS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 01:29 PM   #2893
Lady Kuno
The hostess with the mostess
 
Lady Kuno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 226,522
Interesting read, Talon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son_of_Shadows View Post
Thoughts on Obama's address/Clinton's concession?

I found it all pretty spineless to be honest.
Clinton sounded more human than ever before. If she was like that the entire race things would have been different.
__________________
JUST NUKE THE FUCKING SUN


PROUD OWNER OF A MISSINGNO. IN FIZZY BUBBLES
Lady Kuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 01:31 PM   #2894
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Shuckle I'm not afraid of Trump, I'm afraid of Pence and the social conservative movement he has just validated. Granted, I no longer want to argue about this to you, because you continually have dismissed me in this regard. I'm scared about the Senate and the House and the potential for Pence to be the voice for LGBT discrimination. And before you say anything, yes, Pence has probably been one of the worst people ever for LGBT people.

Trump himself may not be bad, but he also probably doesn't care on the matter too much, and that apathy worries me. I'm going to ask that you not reply to this. I believe that things are going to be worse for LGBT people, and it has little to do with Trump the candidate himself. If you can't understand that, whatever. Have fun with your choice for Pres.
First off, I voted for HRC. To just put that out there. My state sent all of its delegates to Hillary. This was not "my choice," it was the country's choice that I am deeply okay with.

Second, that's a pretty legitimate argument...but I think it ignores the fact that Trump apparently does care about LGBT issues. As the article I linked noted, he's most likely going to try to headlock the Republican Party into doing things he wants (LGBT rights, help for minorities, closing loopholes, universal health care, etc.) by offering them in nice little Republican-shaped packages - and the series of articles I looked at seems to support the idea that he picked Mike Pence for that exact reason.

Mike Pence is not a voice, he is a bridge. Trump is not just letting him run free to set up whatever religious bills he wants, he is using him to keep the Republican Party happy while he does things that they would usually not be happy about. Nobody understands image better than Donald Fucking Trump.

Third, I am trying not to dismiss your concerns. I know I come across as challenging your points, but you've posted a lot about how electing Trump is bad for you, then moved the line in the sand further and further back so that you can continue to hold that opinion.

First you talk about how Trump is bad because he is a bigot.

Then you talk about how he wants to sign the FADA.

Then you talk about how his supporters are bigots.

Now you're talking about how his VP is a bigot.

I honestly don't feel like these shifting arguments are a result of me dismissing your points. I usually address these arguments pretty head-on, actually. And the plain truth of the matter is that Trump himself is supportive of trans rights, and that will lead to improvements for trans rights in the future. I know it's scary to trust that Republicans will help you, but that's what seems to be happening right now. Better to roll with it and maybe even be grateful, since that means that Republican voters might actually show sympathy to your cause for a change.

And if things don't go as I predict, then please, feel free to slap me with the biggest, fattest "I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO" in history.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut thinking back, I'm like 75% sure that everything has gone as I predicted. With the exception of "Hillary's gonna win" and "Hillary helped out BLM" (she should have helped out BLM though, would have helped her campaign and her numbers a lot and kept them from becoming domestic terrorists who fucking shoot police officers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept
On a side note, I said several positive things about Trump as various points (not enough to outweigh the copious negatives, in my mind, but I did) without getting "attacked and silenced". Watching Trumps plans for... most of anything, really, being repeatedly shot down by wide consensus of expert opinion* and then continuing to voice support for those same plans is rather the equivalent of being told by a ton of doctors "yeah you have X and should do Y about it" and deciding "I think it's actually a purpleness of my aura, imma take powdered root of Xander to return it to its natural orange hue".
Rangeet literally chewed you out every time you said anything positive about Trump, so Idk about that.

I think I've talked about why specific policy plans aren't as important during the election as they are after the election. Whether or not Trump builds a wall is immaterial. Hell, Trump supporters don't even think he'll build a physical wall. What matters is:

1. He recognized a problem the people were experiencing
2. He was unafraid to offer a bold solution
3. He yelled that solution in plain language as loudly as possible

Bloodless victory. Trump wins among people who care deeply about immigration, and Hillary can't do anything about it; she has to fight somewhere else.

Really what the people care about is that their problem is solved, and even if that means stronger border patrol and smarter legal immigration policies instead of a wall, those people know that Trump is going to do it. And he will!

Same with the law&order speech, same with the "nasty women" speech, same with "bad hombres," same with "the woman card," same with any other sound bite you care to name. Trump practically followed a fucking formula here. Pick a problem that was discussed in the debate and Trump has a solution to it. It doesn't have to be a good solution, it just has to be a bold solution that people can say "Wow! That's a pretty fucking strong solution! I didn't think we would go 0-100 like that but hey, this guy has the right idea! This problem is IMPORTANT to me, and I care a lot about getting it fixed as fast as possible!"

Compare this to Hillary. What problems did she identify? What solutions did she offer? How understandable was her language?

Compare to Bernie on the other hand: "I'm gonna make college free."

1. Recognize the problem
2. Offer a bold solution
3. Yell that solution in easily-understood language as loudly as possible

Who gives a fuck if it's "free" in the sense that student loans are easier to pay for and less punishing to hold? Who gives a fuck if it's not "free" but instead "affordable?" Who gives a fuck if it just means that there will be more and better-paying jobs for college grads? BERNIE'S GONNA DO IT!
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 03:29 PM   #2895
DaveTheFishGuy
Primordial Fishbeast
 
DaveTheFishGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 12,258
Send a message via Skype™ to DaveTheFishGuy
Via WhatsApp:

Kush was wrong about everything!

DaveTheFishGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 03:37 PM   #2896
Lady Kuno
The hostess with the mostess
 
Lady Kuno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 226,522
Another good read:

Dear Democrats, Read This If You Do Not Understand Why Trump Won
__________________
JUST NUKE THE FUCKING SUN


PROUD OWNER OF A MISSINGNO. IN FIZZY BUBBLES
Lady Kuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 03:41 PM   #2897
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Kuno View Post
Damn this is good.
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 04:04 PM   #2898
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
Exit polls, for your personal perusal.

Remember: These results are "Of the people who answered [THING], Blue% voted Hillary, Red% voted Trump, and Gray% voted Independent." Interpret them only in this way.

Hard numbers are I guess not available. It's therefore not possible to just look at the red and blue proportions and guess at who did better overall. For example, only 10% of the population is LGBT, so that bar is just an interesting look at the demographic, not a meaningful percentage of the vote. ALSO, please remember that these proportions are self-selected, so you can't make the claim that 78% of LGBT people want Hillary in office. The number is probably a lot lower than that, it's just that most of the LGBT people who voted did so because they were afraid of Donald Trump/Mike Pence or legitimately believed that Clinton was the better candidate for their LGBT identities.
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 04:34 PM   #2899
Escalion
Getting married! :D
 
Escalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,158
Send a message via Skype™ to Escalion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
When you look at the numbers other than the those related to who voted who, the only correct conclusion can be that Republicans are basically just a bunch of angry people. And that the country is seriously divided.
__________________
Escalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 04:38 PM   #2900
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Kuno View Post
I don't like that read at all. He lays at our feet a lot of the problems of the DNC's corruption, none of which are our fault / directly within our power to control.1 Just to list off the several that have leapt out at me in the first twenty seconds of reading:
  • he blames me for thinking the WikiLeaks Russian propaganda. I never thought that nor said that.
  • he blames me for turning a blind eye to WikiLeaks' leaks. The hell I did! Yet more fuel to add to my write-in fire.
  • he accuses me of labeling anti-HRCers "conspiracy theorists". I myself was one of the thread's resident "conspiracy theorists" with my talk of Clinton having this rigged from the inside, Trump running to sabotage the GOP and ensure his bff Hillary won, etc. (I may not have been right about everything, but to say that I'm the one who was calling others "conspiracy theorists" is just wrong.)
  • I defended my intellectual Republican friends who were glumly voting for the Donald. I (by proxy) / They would get attacked by the likes of Rangeet.
  • I tried to give a microphone to Mozz on several occasions but gave up when the UPN liberal circlejerk became too much to handle. (And I say this as a self-identified moderate liberal.)
  • "Everyone was simply insulating themselves within their own echo chamber ignoring anything outside their bubble." IS THIS NOT THE VERY ACCUSATION I LAID AT THE THREAD'S FEET ON AT LEAST TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS!? Fuck me, right?
So yeah. No. This guy's a pretentious asshole who doesn't speak for me. He may speak for hipster douchebags who are trying to come to terms with a Donald Trump victory, but he sure as hell doesn't speak for me.

I will keep reading though, because you said it's a good read.

1 Indirectly, yes. Through actions like mine (primary vote for Sanders, write-in rejection of Clinton). Or through actions like half the voters' (voting Trump because FUCK YOU DNC).
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:13 PM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.