The Egg House

[Altocharizard55]

Well, we've gone long enough without a thread on the elephant in the room.

I'll be frank; I think this is something we can and should keep around in some form. Frankly put, Gachas are fun, and was something I came back for time and time again. I think the form the Egg House was in prior (facebook game style) was quite unhealthy. However, I don't think we should jump to the other extreme.

Marion (and myself even earlier) brought up a very fun sounding idea a few weeks back, where the new!Egg House would indeed give eggs (I believe in the same fashion of the previous installment) conditional on the completion of some sort of side quest/short RP session.

Anyways, discuss.

[Talon87]

Eggs being rewarded for RP is a fine idea, but if eggs are an RP reward then there is absolutely no need for an Egg House. You get the egg during your RPed adventure, and it hatches after x many posts in that or some later adventure.

"Water follows the path of least resistance" is, I think, a good thing to remember when trying to overhaul this game. A lot of what ultimately plagued FB in the past has been people taking the easy road. You can't blame them for this, but it is what it is. Humans are hugely logical and economical creatures. They're not going to write a 20,000-word novella over the course of six months for a 5% chance at a dreammon when they could simply write "I'd like to collect a {*} Egg, please" once every three weeks and have that same 5% shot at the Pokémon instead.

The point being here, the old Egg House shop took focus away from the zones for any and all players whose goal was to assemble their dream team (which is apparently many players) or who simply wanted to amass Pokémon (which has always been most players). And it did this because it was simply loads easier than zone captures. Easier, faster, more reliable ... Superior in just about every way.

If you do decide to keep an Egg House around, I feel like it would have to, by necessity, be gimped so badly as to make it a less viable route for teambuilding than zone captures would be, such that most players take the zone captures route.

Perhaps you could lock off the Egg House to members unless they qualify to use it, and achieving those qualifications is harder than it is to catch Pokémon in zones. Examples:

• in order to use the Egg House, you need to have posted 50 times in the zones since your last use of the Egg House
• in order to use the Egg House, you have to be an updater
• in order to use the Egg House, you have to have gotten an Egg House pass

These are just examples. Egg House, closed off to the general public, only qualifying members may enter. Then, once you're inside, hatching an egg could be a lot better than it was in the past. Example: you say a Pokémon name, mod gives you an egg with a 1-in-5 chance of hatching that Pokémon, 4-in-5 chance of hatching whatever else. While you can't decide the species or the shininess, you can decide the gender. (Mod will ask you for this information as your egg hatches.)

Something where like ... the Egg House is strictly better for dream team builders than eggs you acquire and hatch in zones (which would be more random), but it's much harder to access than simple zone captures would be.

[Nerd Violence]

I definitely want to see the Egg House stay. I don't have any clever ideas for it, however. Maybe have the wait period be that you have to finish an adventure, in any zone, before picking up your next egg?

Example:

Tate hatches a Pidove from a Flying Celestial Egg on May 8th.
Tate posts an intro in Bedlam Ridge on May 9th.
Tate finishes said adventure June 29th.
Tate picks up a flying Celestial Egg on June 30th.
Tate hatches a Hoothoot on July 7th.
Tate posts an intro in Cortoza on July 11th.
Tate finishes said adventure November 24th.
Tate picks up a Flying Celestial Egg on November 25th.

A player would have to an intro after hatching their egg and complete an adventure before claiming a new one. It doesn't require updating manpower for a specific egg-only zone taking away from other zones but still has an RP requirement.

[Altocharizard55]

I think that's too variable, Tate. Some adventures are short, some are long, and it's highly unfair to potentially punish members with slow update speed/long adventures. Whatever restriction we have on egg attainment should be at least relatively uniform.

[Nerd Violence]

That's a valid concern, Alto. I understand wholly.

If you mean that the side quest/short adventure would be in full fledged zones, your & ME's idea could work. I think if we have a zone just for Egg quests though, it'll just get repetitive, pull focus away from other zones, and probably burn out updators. I'm assuming you meant the former though.

[Altocharizard55]

I did indeed mean the former!

[Nerd Violence]

Then while I lack ideas to contribute, the preliminary proposition does have my support. How do you propose the player establish that they wish to have an Egg side quest, without making the entire adventure about the Egg pass?

[Princess Ana]

As many people know I don't really have any love for the Egg House. I've seen it as a source of problems for years, providing an easy, cheap, and efficient way for people to accrue Pokemon without ever having to RP. When people think of Shop Culture, the Egg House was arguably the biggest proponent in that. My opinion is still to gut it. Gut it and leave it basically only for certain events, like Easter or campaigns, or to hatch eggs gotten as RP rewards (or updator rewards, shall we want to do this).

I understand the concerns about Pokemon not being readily available for new people. But we just don't know if that's going to be the case. This is something that I kind of want as a shock test for FB: if we remove the source of the issue completely, its going to force people to try to RP. I want to see if we as an RP can survive without the Egg House, and I believe we can. I worry that trying to ease us out instead of pulling the bandage might just enable the problem for longer.

[Altocharizard55]

I super strongly disagree with Emi's position here. It isn't as if people didn't RP because the Egg House existed. Why not just let it exist in a different form?

I don't see a good reason to take the radical approach when a better compromise can clearly be reached.

To Tate, I'll get a formal writeup of my idea soonish.

[Toyo]

Echoing Emi on all points. The Egg House is a major factor in the fall of RP in FB, and seeing it gone for a little bit with the exception of maybe events and zone eggs would be ultimately beneficial for us. Alto, you're totally right that this is a radical change but the Egg House could always come back in a different form later on.

Also, the changes to the Adoption Center (random pokemon popping in on occasion) really helps solve the issue of Pokemon for newbies.

[Missingno. Master]

Speaking as someone who has made frequent use of the Egg House in the past, who has gotten many of his Pokémon from said shop... I'm not opposed to the idea of severely gimping it. Special events, hatching Eggs obtained in zones, but not much, if anything at all, beyond that. I think Emi's got kind of a good point- as nice as the Egg House has been, it's a good idea to see if we can survive without it.

[Marion Ette]

Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131

Alto, you're totally right that this is a radical change but the Egg House could always come back in a different form later on.

I think this will be an important point if we do end up getting rid of the Egg House entirely. It coincides with the more general point that a lot of these decisions are not set in stone, and will be re-evaluated. I anticipate there will be a lot of revisions and changes in the next few months, so things may be somewhat hectic, but as long as people remain involved and continue to feel like they're being heard, I'm confident the end result will be worth it.

Back to the topic at hand, I am eager to hear Alto's proposition, as (from a somewhat selfish perspective, admittedly) ever since I was a young teen playing FB I've loved me some gashapon Pokebabies. I have a real nostalgic love of the Egg House and its eggs - the spirit of the shop is something I enjoy - but in practice it needed a LOT of help. In some eras of FB, it was practically the sole source of obtaining Pokemon.

Actually - FUN FACT - if you look at my Member Post, despite all of my activity in FB and in RP, my only Zone Capture was Vulpix (now Ninetales). From Kumo City. Some time in 2003.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah.

So, absolutely, let's work on the egg house, but remember... Unless zone captures are adequately filling the gap, we will end up with problems. This will be where the reevaluation needs to come in. And for all the problems the Egg House had, it was still a fun thing, especially way back when, and I'd like to go back to the Egg House being a fun aspect of FB if at all possible.

[Altocharizard55]

BEHOLD.

http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthre...118#post789118

[Whimsy]

So what's stopping us from just extending the wait period between eggs to be like... 1/2/3 months?

I mean it seems like the easiest way to patch up most of the existing problems with the shop - it's no longer more reliable than zones (if we assume it'll take a month or three to finish an adventure), not as many pokemon will be generated from it (it'll go down to like... 4-6 per year?),
and people will actually have to think whether the chance of hatching something they don't want is worth waiting another month or 4 to get another chance.

I mean, I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but I assume it has though. If so, what made us ditch the idea? Sure, you're not "working" for pokemon if you get them from the egg house, but if we extend the cooldown period then you'll be paying for the eggs in time which is just as big an investment.

[Altocharizard55]

The problem extends beyond the timeframe, as we're essentially trying to answer "Should the Pokemon resource be available outside of roleplaying?". I think the resounding answer is no.

[Lil'twick]

My thoughts on the Egg House is that it should primarily be used to hatch eggs. It was always fun to see the mass predictions and the general excitement the Egg House brought back when I was locked out. Should the Egg House specifically hand out eggs? No, I don't think so. Eggs should primarily be adventure rewards and given out from events/birthdays. Honestly if we just take out Eggs being obtained from the Egg House besides hard to obtain/incredibly rare Egg Passrs, it'll stand by as being fine to me.

[Whimsy]

Originally Posted by Altocharizard55

The problem extends beyond the timeframe, as we're essentially trying to answer "Should the Pokemon resource be available outside of roleplaying?". I think the resounding answer is no.

Ok then ignore the old egg house style, and then answer my question with regards to the minizone you've drafted up (which I guess I should ask in said minizone's thread but fuck it I'm lazy)

Why don't we make it so you can only pick up an "egg RP mission" or whatever once every 3 months? Do the whole song and dance to RP whatever mission you're given to earn the egg, hatch it, then bang - cooldown of 3 months.

You're limiting the "reliable" way of getting pokemon to around 4 times a year, and you still have to RP for them. Meanwhile, in the 3 months waiting between pick ups, you could possibly complete an adventure or three in a real zone.

Like I just feel like the issue of how to fix the egg house is becoming way too overcomplicated now because of how much of an issue it is. Yes, people should not have a way to get Pokémon outside of roleplaying, but that's not the full reason the egg house was such a burden. The reason, I believe, was twofold was it not? It was because adventuring had become too time consuming and unreliable to depend on, with some people even being stuck due to updators not picking them up or finishing their adventures, or being restrained by the old rules so that they couldn't get their "dream team" or whatever. Thus, the Egg House became the only reliable way for most people to get Pokemon. If you make the Egg House "RP only", what happens if the other prong fails again, and we enter another state of slowed down updates and immoving zones?

Like sure, remove the shop aspect of it and enforce it to be RP orientated. If the Egg House becomes solely for hatching eggs found in adventures or given out in special events, I'm sure people will be fine with such changes. But if the adventures fall into a slump and the giving out of eggs at special events becomes the next reliable way to gain team mates - will that not become as concerning as taking away the focus from RP?

tl;dr, I just feel like the way to address the issue of how "reliable" the Egg House is to gain new pokémon (even via RP) could be solved by putting a large time restraint on how often you can use the service, and if you want, make it so you're not even guaranteed a pokemon from the "egg". It could be a candy egg full of coins or an evolution item or ~whatever~
Either way this would mean the only reliable way to get more team members over time would be RPing in zone adventures.

Edit: Actually, that makes me wonder - a person shouldn't be allowed to gain pokemon outside of RP is something we've agreed on, yes?
Wouldn't that be unfair to a newer member with only their starter to RP with? Like, us vets with our "large" squads are pretty much set I guess,
with our only remaining wants being things we like. A new member doesn't have that luxury. I know it's a dumb question but it's just occured to me and I might as well ask it.

[Lil'twick]

Iirc we haven't actually agreed on that. I think the consensus was that RP should be the main method of obtaining Pokemon, not the sole method.

[Altocharizard55]

I did put a time restraint. It's literally in the proposed minizone description.

[Whimsy]

Originally Posted by Altocharizard55

I did put a time restraint. It's literally in the proposed minizone description.

Originally Posted by Altocharizard55

Due to a limited number of available missions, each trainer will only be able to take on one of each mission every (X/Y amount of time). [/size]

It's a vague time restraint. Like I said, I did read this first before asking my questions. So why would 3 months not be a valid (X/Y amount of time)?

[Ex-Admiral Insane]

Since this has become such a hot topic issue, I'll throw in my two cents on this.

The two methods of "Egg Attainment" that differ from the old Egg House appear to be:
1) Keeping the Egg House but limiting its use, either by making it something you have to purchase with Pokédollars or Coins, or increasing the time-lapse so fewer are given out.
2) A zone of sorts where players RP to obtain or hatch an egg, whether this is the Egg Zone or the Guildhouse or something else entirely.

In addition to this, I suppose eggs can be obtained as zone rewards or be made into quests within a zone adventure.

There's a tangible clove on both sides for which method is better. There are issues for both such as updater resources for mini-zones or the fact that we create a shop culture if we still allow purchasables or free-pick-up eggs. The point of the Eggs was to add to what zones were lacking; essentially filling in the gaps by supplying an alternative method for Pokémon attainment. With a huge overhaul being made on every aspect it's hard to exactly determine what the right method is for the future.
Because of this I want to suggest that we put a pin in this topic for later.
If Eggs are supposed to remain as a supplement to what Zones and FB in general are lacking then I prefer we wait and see how the other aspects of FB develop before we decide on a method. I know I'm not the first to say this. We can revisit this topic once the rest has been established, such as Zones and Currency.
I don't want to stop the discussion of this entirely but I think there are other topics that need to be finalized first - topics that will inevitable influence how we decide to go about eggs - before we can make any concrete decision. I have a preference for an option but I also know that preference will change depending on the circumstances.

[Lil'twick]

Okay since zones are going to be rolling out soon, let's discuss Eggs again. Note, this is not to discuss out of Zone Pokemon/Free Eggs. At this point that belongs in its own thread. I want to discuss the mechanics of Eggs. How exactly will eggs work? I understand that they are potential rewards from zones. I think that is perfectly fine. In terms of hatching, the Egg House should be used. In a sense, the Egg House should also be renamed to The Hatchery. So how will the SO/SU roll for these hatches? How will a ZA/ZU determine the type of egg their Adventurer gets. Will we get more Special egg types next to Shadow/Starter/Enigma eggs? Will Eggs be treated as items now, if they are considered rewards? If we don't keep the Egg House/Hatchery to hatch eggs, how will eggs hatch?

[Muyotwo]

I think that while the zones should be the easiest way to get Pokemon for your team, an Egg House does have a role to fill in helping people build the team that they want/idealize. It also makes it easier to get caught up in zone quests that may not actually have a Pokemon as a reward at the end. I fear that if zones are essentially the only place to get Pokemon you may have adventurers bail out of quests or be disappointed that they're spending X number of updates only to be rewarded with a shard or a Pokemon they don't actually want. Yes, the RP should be the main goal of FB rather than just collecting your favorites, but there does need to be some middle ground. I'd propose an egg hatch every three months, with the possibility of say, a super rare egg hatch voucher being a prize in zones. That way you're still getting some Pokemon turnover and people feel a bit more in control in looking for Pokemon that they want without flooding the market with eggs.

[Marion Ette]

A point has been raised by Gemini Spark, and echoed by lilblue, which I believe makes a compelling argument for why the Egg House existed in the first place (beyond the gachapon-esque thrill and mystery of wondering what's inside and RNGing one's way to filling one's wishlist).

This argument actually factors in the RP perspective: essentially, eggs provide a tabula rasa as far as personality goes for Pokemon. They are not influenced by updaters (aside from the one or two-sentence flavor text sometimes provided by the previous mods), nor by previous owners in the case of the AC. This allows the RPer to completely form that Pokemon's personality from scratch.

The "birthday egg" (anticipated to go into effect on 01 January 2018, as well as the rest of the new trainer birthday rewards), will provide one such opportunity for this. The Springtime Pyukumuku may return next year, too, as that event seemed quite popular and well-received. This provides an anticipated two opportunities a year - some may consider this plenty. Others, not.

I am interested to see how this argument may factor in to this discussion, in particular.

[Schala]

I can agree with that sentiment. Having had most of my Pokemon come from eggs, I can say that the freedom it has afforded me to craft their background and personality is very nice, and was vital to the creation of many of their personalities.

When I got the idea for my second character, I had a very specific starter Pokemon in mind with a distinct backstory and personality. Hatching her from an egg allowed me to implement all of that. Capturing her in a zone with my other character would have resulted in me having to retcon that entire adventure, because that Pokemon needed a clean slate to work with.

I've got two Pokemon on my wishlist that I have ideas for that would just flat out not work for Pokemon coming from a zone adventure, and several that I have distinct personalities in mind that might clash with personalities updaters choose. My current options for them would be managing to snag them from the AC (which would both require them to be there, and for me to get to them first, which is rather unlikely), finding someone willing to trade them that doesn't mind me wiping their background (also very unlikely), or getting them in a zone adventure and either ignoring all of the background and personality from that adventure, or giving up on my character ideas and going with what was presented to me (the most likely thing to happen, and I don't like either option for it).

The Egg House did fill that niche. It filled it too well, and flooded Fizzy Bubbles with Pokemon obtained without RP. Lengthening the time between eggs, or restricting them behind special events or things you get from RPing would help prevent the flood. It still requires the RNG giving you the Pokemon you wanted to hatch so you can create the backstory yourself, however.

Not related to Eggs, but in regards to the problem of opportunities to obtain a "blank slate" Pokemon: Honestly, I feel like the solution to Pokemon you want to craft backstories/personalities for is the idea that was suggested with the wishlist thread. A place you can go a few times a year (last I saw was every six months, I believe), where you can RP obtaining a certain Pokemon. Discussion on it mostly stalled because it happened at the tail end of the original proposal thread before the Development Forum was created, but we could certainly start discussing it again. I don't recall an answer to whether it would be update based or just a person writing a post about how they obtained a Pokemon, but with the latter, you have the ability to create a backstory and personality for your Pokemon. As long as it is restricted to a few times a year, and has some minimum requirements (at the very least the post should meet the minimum requirement for a zone post: 250 words), It would give people the opportunity to get those Pokemon whose backstory and personality wouldn't mesh well with a zone adventure without completely devaluing getting Pokemon from zones.