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Old 08-21-2019, 05:34 AM   #4926
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Tapu Fini is destroyed by all the other Tapus: Lele kills her with pure offensive power while Koko and Bulu destroy with super effective moves.

Fini also loses to Rotom-W, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Tangrowth. I basically have to resort to Nature's Madness to hurt these Pokemon, which would be fine if Fini had some other way of doing damage that isn't a pittance (v. Chansey) or resisted (v. the others). Misty Terrain also doesn't help Rotom or Pelipper because they're not grounded.

If I could clone a Pokemon (short of getting a decent Water/Steel), another version of Pelipper or Swampert would be ideal, and that's sort of what I end up falling back on: either Gyarados, or Seismitoad, poor men's versions of Pelipper and Swampert. Neither Pelipper or Swampert can switch into attacks, but their offensive presence is formidable. For example,

252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Pelipper: 132-156 (45 - 53.2%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO
124+ SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 294-348 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I look at Palkia and from what I've seen in OU, I don't think he'd be broken. The only useful resistance is the x4 to Water, and he'd struggle to handle neutral hits even with 90/100/120 bulk. I know this because Gyarados has trouble taking neutral hits AFTER Intimidate from the likes of Kartana and Tapu Bulu. Palkia also can't run 101 HP substitutes, so even Focus Punch/Substitute would lose to Seismic Toss Chansey. He can't Taunt Clefable or hit Clefable for super effective damage. Palkia is also walled by Toxapex, but he might be able to PP stall her.

The only destabilizing part is I don't think another offensive Water can exist, or else Lando and Heatran are immensely threatened. Palkia might not be broken in a vacuum but + Ash-Greninja would be intensely overpowering alongside the Tapus and UBs.

I ran a team of Tapus + Unburden spammers (Sceptile, Hawlucha, Slurpuff) and it was just devastating.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:19 AM   #4927
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I'm about 1400 now with monotype water in OU. Welp, now I have to deal with the big boys. Last time I was here there was some obnoxious scoop rules? I hope that doesn't happen again.
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:29 AM   #4928
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I went back to Seismitoad, even though that screws me against some Grass-types.

The main reason was Rotom-Wash was impossible to break through without misplays. My only answer to the Volt Switch is Swampert, who is vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp and Hydro Pump, making Rotom-W essentially always have a plus play. Rotom is so common, much more common than Venusaur, Mew, or even Tangrowth.

I'm using Water Absorb on Seismitoad to ruin standard Rotom-W. Seismitoad is immune to Water and Electric, and as a special attacker doesn't care about Will-O-Wisp. I actually do have Earthquake on Seismitoad because 95 ATK + 100 BP + STAB kills steels like Magearna better than Hydro Pump in the rain.

The Seismitoad is spec'd in such a way to survive 2 EQ from Garchomp, while also 2HKO Toxapex with EQ and Garchomp with Hydro Pump. I'd have preferred Scald, but it's not possible to spec Seismitoad in a way to tank 2 EQ while also getting a 2HKO with Scald.

Well, that's not exactly true. I have some speed EVs to outspeed 230 EV Tapu Bulu. The problem is I run into 4MSS with Seismitoad.

Stealth Rock/Toxic
Earthquake/Sludge Bomb
Hydro Pump/Scald
Knock Off

Knock Off is essential for Chansey, since Chansey switching in to Greninja was the main reason I stopped the Life Orb set. This is an absolute must too in case the Life Orb is knocked off. The others, I'm not so sure about.

Sludge Bomb is a OHKO against Tapu Bulu and does good damage to Tapu Fini, who is immune to Toxic. It is also the strongest move (except for Sludge Wave) to hit Rotom-Wash. Earth Power is less useful than Earthquake because Toxapex and Magearna are EV'd against special attacks, and with 90 BP coming off 85 SPA, it's significantly weaker than EQ.

So the problem becomes, what do I use?

Scald, Earthquake is a good all-around offensive combo. Knock Off is self explanatory. But I can't decide between Stealth Rock or Toxic.

I'm leaning toward Toxic/Hydro Pump and Stealth Rock/Scald, but I don't see scenarios where either is super good right now. Against most defoggers, Toxic is much better. Against offensive teams Stealth Rock is better.
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Old 08-22-2019, 05:46 AM   #4929
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Alright, this will be my last battle until Generation VIII. I don't like the sensation of playing in a "final format" knowing a new one is coming soon. I've been through this with Yu-Gi-Oh! already and it never sat well.

Virizion eating that Ice Beam is a tell that it's time to quit. I had a similar moment in Ubers last time, where Modest Specs Greninja couldn't OHKO a bulky version of Necrozma-DM.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 247-292 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Like huh? Being unable to kill Necrozma-DM back then told me that there was a limit to how I wanted to play. I got a similar sensation here. Hopefully, Gen VIII brings buffs to these Pokemon so I can go through another fun time pretending to be a Water-type Gym Leader.
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Old 08-25-2019, 03:54 AM   #4930
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Is there a conspiracy behind Deoxys-D staying in Ubers? It was tested in Generation VI but not in Generation VII, to my knowledge. I highly suspect if it was tested in Generation VII it would be deemed OU.

The ONLY conceivable advantage I can see of Deoxys-D over Mew as a lead is Spikes. Their bulk is very similar (using Physical/Special versions of E-Speed for comparison):

252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 70-84 (23 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 19.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are a Bold nature, with 252 EVs in both HP and Defense. Deoxys-D has a slight advantage in special bulk under these circumstances, but also lower speed that Mew, meaning that Deoxys won't outspeed Tapu Bulu or Tapu Fini without speed investment. Uninvested Psycho Boost is also only slightly more powerful than Mew's Psychic:

0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 96-114 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- 1.7% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 84-99 (19 - 22.4%) -- possible 5HKO

So to me, Deoxys-D is like a more specialized defensive Mew, with the only real advantage being Spikes. Is Mew an Uber if it gets access to Spikes? I highly doubt that.

The only way Deoxys-D is broken is if it allows Mew to take on a new, centralizing role because it's not forced into the defensive lead position. Which I also doubt.

Am I missing something here?
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:06 AM   #4931
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It is literally because of Spikes. It's the best Spikes user in the game and made HO teams so much more difficult to deal with because of it. Its bulk means it can run Mental Herb instead of Focus Sash like many other Spike leads have to, it has moveset variety unlike many other Spikes leads (like Tentacruel and Forretress) and can actually kill things.

We can speculate about whether Mew would also be ban-worthy if it had Spikes (the answer is probably) but that's not really relevant. Deoxys-D basically outclassed any, and all, other hazard leads.
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:49 AM   #4932
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That doesn't explain why it wasn't even tested in Gen VII, though. There was a 20% turnover in OU Pokemon, many above base 90 speed. You would think that would give it more reason to be tested over something like Aegislash. Especially since Greninja is an even faster Spikes setter, can run sash and is immune to Prankster Taunts. Protean can match Deoxys-D's coverage options with the STAB boost it gets from its coverage.
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:35 AM   #4933
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Not having to run Sash is a significant boon, not a bane. In addition, Greninja doesn't have Stealth Rock.

Also, of course, if you use Deo-D, you don't have to use Greninja at all to set up hazards.

I'm not part of the OU council so I can't explain why it wasn't tested. They also quick-banned Landorus, and then complained about Stall's prevalence, so.
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:55 PM   #4934
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I looked at Volcanion and immediately thought "Heatran", and indeed a lot of people compared him to Heatran when he came out.

Unfortunately, I don't think that comparison holds up. Even if you squint reeeeally hard to try and put Fire/Water with a Water immunity on the same level as Fire/Steel with a Fire immunity, Volcanion's real weakness is a bit more subtle.

Namely,

0- Atk Volcanion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 124-148 (34.1 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0+ SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 80-96 (22 - 26.4%) -- 12.5% chance to 4HKO

It's the same for Toxapex too. Earth Power, though rarer than EQ, sucks unless it's on a Pokemon that has Sheer Force, because a lot of OU mons will spec against special attacks, knowing that burns can deal with physical attackers.

Volcanion has an absolutely worthless 110 Attack, and though he gets a lot of physical moves including all the physical Rock-type moves, he doesn't get Stealth Rock. I feel like 130 Special Attack with high BP moves is enough to spam without investment, but the lack of SR and that stupid high Attack stat really bring him down.

Even without SR, swapping that Attack for SpD or Speed would be great. Or giving him SR. Either minor buff would have been night or day.
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Old 08-26-2019, 11:07 AM   #4935
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I have that we live in a world where 110 Attack is "absolutely worthless"
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Old 08-26-2019, 11:28 AM   #4936
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Volcanion's weakness is that its typing sucks compared to Heatran. Fire / Water is a lot worse than Fire / Steel.

Also, you don't really need to run much defensive investment.

0- Atk Volcanion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 98-116 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 112-132 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Sure it doesn't 2HKO but Toxapex also cannot touch Volcanion and is forced to switch out.
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Old 08-26-2019, 12:07 PM   #4937
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Without defensive investment, Volcanion is 2HKO'd by Magearna's Volt Switch, is 3HKO by Power Whip or OHKO by Wood Hammer.

Toxpaex is an issue because Volcanion can't touch it without Earthquake, and without Stealth Rock there's no real way to take advantage of the switch. Clicking EQ opens you up to a switch with Lando-T or Tornadus-T or some other obnoxious Flying or Grass-type that is faster.

I thought that Volcanion would be a good Tapu Fini check, since he resists Moonblast and is immune to Scald, but he's crippled by Nature's Madness. And again Volcanion can't really hurt Tapu Fini without Sludge Bomb, .

He's a good concept Pokemon but I'd rather run Fire coverage on something unexpected than a Stealth Rock weak Fire-type. The weaknesses, low speed and poor BST spread really hurt his use, even though the out the gate 130 SpA is so nice to use.
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Old 08-26-2019, 12:17 PM   #4938
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You can just Sub on Toxapex. It's not an issue. It cannot stay in and you can proceed to hit other things hard with Steam Eruption or Fire Blast.

Like Volcanion isn't a strong OU mon but it consistently forces Toxapex out because Toxapex cannot do anything except try to stall out Earth Povver and risks a Sp.Def drop.
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:00 PM   #4939
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I use sub on Mega Swampert to force out Toxapex. I have HP investment so that Toxapex's Scald cannot 2HKO the Swampert sub under the rain, which allows me to setup Stealth Rock and EQ it away. The sub also protects Swampert from Intimidate, Toxic, WoW and Leech Seed from Ferrothorn.

But the main point of that sub is Stealth Rock, since it guarantees that I set it up, and switching to Lando doesn't matter because I get a full-strength or rain-boosted Waterfall on Lando if he stays in to EQ.

I hadn't thought of sub on Volcanion, but I don't see it working if a setup sweeper is switched in. Clefable, or Calm Mind Keldeo can come in and Volcanion can't do anything as they set up Calm Minds. Tapu Fini's Nature's Madness breaks substitutes, so she isn't outsped.

I had this problem where Volcarona was being switched into Seismitoad and Azumarill in the rain and setting up Quiver Dance. Unevolved Specs Greninja can't OHKO Volcarona with Hydro Pump at full health and +1 SpD - not that it matters since Volcarona outspeeds Greninja at +1 speed.

That said, Volcanion is a UU Pokemon for a reason: if he was good enough for OU these traits wouldn't be such a problem. I get jealous of Heatran so I was kind of hoping I could make him work somehow, but he needs team support (beyond rain) that I can't really provide.
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Old 08-27-2019, 02:50 AM   #4940
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I tried looking in to STABmons because I was interested in if my team could be better with access to more powerful moves. Knock Off Greninja and Dragon Ascent Gyarados are the big ones, but also access to Steam Eruption simply for the accuracy buff over Hydro pump.

Also worth noting is major headaches to water, Kyurem-B, Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko, are banned.

And while most of my moves are buffed, the Pokemon operate exactly the same. Azumarill has weird access to a lot of moves because Azurill is a Normal-type, but none of that helps. Nature's Madness does give it immediate offense that works with AV somehow. I gave Oblivion Wing to help out AV Pelipper but it hasn't had much of an impact.

I've gotta say, the most bonkers part is Rotom: someone decided that Rotom can learn all moves of any form change it has. That means Rotom-Wash has access to every Fire, Flying, Ice, Grass, Ghost type move. I don't know why it's not considered the best Pokemon in the game, seeing as it could carry stupid coverage for almost anything. Shadow Sneak means it steals boots from Substitute sweepers, Moongeist Beam means it runs a soft Mold Breaker. Seed Flare obviously is murder to other Water-types but I can also run Aeroblast to obliterate Grasses too. Just crazy.

In regular OU, almost all of my Pokemon are running the Assault Vest. I know this sounds kind of dumb but it works for a few reasons: the boost to rain makes up for the lack of a boosting item, and Pokemon like Pelipper and Azumarill cannot die because they're needed to check certain threats.

Pelipper in particular works pretty well with AV. Physically defensive + AV and Hurricane, Hydro Pump, U-Turn and Knock Off give it offensive presence and the utility to handle walls. Pelipper has an 80% chance to survive Mega Tyranitar's Stone Edge from full health while also taking under 50% from Serperior's Lead Storm, allowing it to tank both physical and special threats.

So you'd think that a leeching move like Oblivion Wing, even with the low BP, would be the prefect complement to the rest of the moves when Pelipper has a super effective target.

I think Azumarill would be fine if it could still combine Seismic Toss/Nature's Madness. There's no redeeming the low offensive stats so fixed damage is the way to go.
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:56 PM   #4941
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252+ Atk Life Orb Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Attack: 123-146 (51 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

/small violin plays
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Old 08-30-2019, 07:58 AM   #4942
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No Water/Steel really hurts. A team of Toxapex/Tangrowth can just switch endlessly, even when hazards are up and BOTH are burned, because Grass/Poison and Water/Toxic basically cover everything except other types.

Why is there only one Water/Steel? Zamazenta gives us two Fire/Steel Pokemon. Yet Water/Steel is nowhere near as overpowered as Fire/Steel, Fairy/Steel or Steel/Flying, yet the only Water/Steel is Empoleon, who not only sucks GameFreak actively tried to make him worse.
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Old 08-30-2019, 08:46 AM   #4943
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Where e heck did you get that information? As far as I'm aware, the only things that have been revealed about that thing are its appearance and its name.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:33 AM   #4944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Median Dia View Post
Where e heck did you get that information? As far as I'm aware, the only things that have been revealed about that thing are its appearance and its name.
Not official. Unconfirmed anonymous leaks I personally found amenable.

Also blaze...I have used Volcanion for a couple days now and 100% people switch in Toxapex to deal with it, they don't switch out.

This is very common. It's scarf rather than specs, because the low speed isn't passable in OU, and Volcanion basically hits with specs anyway under the rain with Steam Eruption. But this is like the last 5 battles I went through: switch in Toxapex, Toxic, and stall.

EP doesn't do over 50%, so it isn't forced out since Toxapex is weaker on the physical side and Volcanion's EQ hits harder by contrast. The sub, I feel, is what forces pex out because it can't handle toxic immunity + scald immunity + burn immunity.

I also have a major issue with getting Toxic trapped. Pelipper, Rotom are slow, but not slow enough to go after Ferrothorn and Toxapex. So those two just spam toxic until my entire team is poisoned. Without a poison or steel type, there's no way to deal with this except hope for bad play.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:38 AM   #4945
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Looks like Sub sets are better :3
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Old 08-30-2019, 06:57 PM   #4946
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Yeah but that might just be any sub user. I have enough HP investment on Mega Swampert to survive Toxapex Scalds in the rain.

I really freaking hate the luck element that comes with Hydro Pump. It's the only negative that comes with spamming water attacks: Surf is too underpowered to nab important KOs thus requiring Hydro Pump. Lame!
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Old 08-31-2019, 01:04 AM   #4947
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Maybe it's because I can't get out of the 1300 rating range, but people here don't follow the guides on Smogon at all.

Take this fellow. Toxapex is recommended for Toxic Spikes, not Toxic, but I see Toxic on it a lot. Similarly, the only way for Tapu Koko to outspeed Scarf Volcanion is with max or close to max speed EVs.

Then, the player uses Thunderbolt on Volcanion...didn't they see I have Swampert? At least, once I knew that the opponent was the type to max speed Tapu Koko and attack with an Electric-type move, I adjusted by strategy accordingly. Once Swampert is revealed they try to kill it with Earthquake and Grass Knot, so I just kept attacking.

I forgot that High Jump Kick causes crash when hitting into Protect. I mostly used it to block Fake Out, but now I see Mega Medicham also uses it. It's definitely a good utility move for stalling or blocking priority.
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:46 PM   #4948
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Altaria

Jolteon cleans up! MVP for sure 😤
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Hi, I'm Daisy!

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W(DQ)- 22(3) L(DQ)-14(0)
KO-55
TP-131 SP- 64.5/96.5 (5SP to Deh, 5SP to FW, 5SP to Desert Spirit, 8.5SP to Fallen Icarus, 10SP to Kyro12, 8SP to Charminions, 10 to aposteriori)
SHUCKS I GOTTA FIX THIS SOMETIME
~TL3~

~Fizzy Bubbles~


Credits to Charm for making this!


Come, my birdies!!!! Mwahahahaha!!!!!!


Thanks Pingu for being so nice and making me this~


Credit to TheKnightsFury for the sprite!

Fear my abnormally large signature~

Be Positive Ref~ I <3 you, Lonely Cubone and those who eval'd me~
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Old 09-02-2019, 01:58 AM   #4949
Doppleganger
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I was fooling around and found a fun matchup.
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Old 09-03-2019, 03:55 AM   #4950
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I had a random battle where I was shocked to learn that unevolved Greninja cannot OHKO Aegislash with Dark Pulse + Choice Specs. What the fudge?
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