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Old 08-07-2022, 05:58 PM   #1
Sneaze
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Ho-oh Why Are We Talking About Feet?



Legends?! In This Economy?!

Welp. We promised everyone Legends by the end of the year, and we've had a lot of discussion on exactly how that will go. We're going to keep a few of the details secret for now, for reasons that will hopefully become apparent later. Still, as this is a significant change to the game, we are of course going to bring the base system up for discussion before implementation.

After a fair bit of poking around at how this will go, we have decided that ultimately the easiest way to implement Legends is through a method that will be exclusive to bi-monthly updater rewards. The primary reason for this, frankly, is that we cannot continue to have three to four (if that many) people carrying all of the zone updates and expect things to do well.

That said, we do wish to discuss exactly how this implementation will work. As it stands we are looking at a tier just above the current bi-monthly tiers that you would need to hit each bi-month to maintain an adventure in which a Legend could be encountered. This wouldn't be considered your actual chosen reward, mind you, just a bonus on top. This of course does have some problems in the case of slow periods and that sort of thing, so we may want to look at a grace period. If we do not want to go that route, there is also the idea floated of a one-time item to use, which if we did go with, would have to be the selected reward for the said bi-month period but wouldn't require further bi-month qualification. So that is point one of the discussion.

Point two is exactly how this would work within an adventure. We currently have two ideas floated. The first is simply a brand new adventure slot that would be used for this adventure to encounter a Legend. This of course brings the problem of needing additional updator activity, which is a bit of a worry. The second is an item that may be used at any point during an adventure to result in that adventure leading up to a Legend encounter. This route also has some issues in potentially interrupting the flow of an updator, but as any Legend adventure should result in the updator working with ZAs we feel this should be a bit more workable. This does still require discussion, though.

Now, you may note that I have been referring to these as Legend encounter adventures and not capture. The reason for this is simply to preserve the updator's ability to write a story, we feel that you should not at all times be guaranteed a specific Legend. With that being the case, it should still be coming down to Legends listed on your Memakyu in the majority of cases, but in the event of a trainer doing back-to-back Legend encounters, there may be a chance that you bump into something else. You obviously will not be required to capture any Legend you do not want, and if we go with the item route for discussion point one you will be given another of said item if you choose not to capture the Legend.

Please discuss as we would like to get things talked about in a manner that works for most people prior to finalization for implementation.
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Old 08-07-2022, 06:20 PM   #2
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I've had my thoughts in my back pocket for a little bit, now, so I'll post them here:

I personally love the idea of Legend encounter adventures, but I also think that making it a Bi-Monthly tier that has to be maintained would lead to some huge issues. Largest among them being that it would at first only further reward the most active updaters, followed by the issue that faster updatees would be favored over people who only reply occasionally.

While this is inherent in the FC and Bi-Monthly systems, anyways, I think Legendary Pokemon are a desirable enough reward that the potential problems that could arise from users unintentionally putting pressure on others to reply faster—all so they can meet quotas to keep their Legendary adventure going—needs to be considered.

Personally, I would favor an approach where each Bi-Monthly period awards credit toward a Legendary adventure. The higher the tier you've reached, the more credit you're awarded. This would mean that even if you have a slow period, you're still earning progress towards that adventure or an item that can alter the course of a current adventure. A potential shop for spending those credits on things besides Legendary encounters—such as associated items, Z-Crystals, Mega Stones, ect—could also be a consideration.

Alternatively, just folding it into the FC ladder, if a separate credit system isn't favorable. After all, a couple tiers relating to raids need to be replaced, anyhow.

Last edited by ShadowDRGN; 08-07-2022 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 08-07-2022, 06:41 PM   #3
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I agree with ShadowDRGN here; having a bi-monthly tier that high would exclude people who either burn out easily or write slowly. I'm not sure if I'm reading the OP right but gatekeeping writing an adventure involving legendaries like that might cause an inverse effect, where frequent low-quality updates supersede ones that take things into consideration.

The item approach is the better option, I can picture it being a special Poké Ball meant for legendaries only. I think that moving the item to staff rewards, making sure that you can only have a maximum of one, and weighting the FC gain from updates to be worth more than SO updates might be a good way to handle this, as it addresses the issues of scarcity, encouraging updator involvement, and encouraging quality over quantity. This is, as usual, very tentative, so I'm open to any further ideas.

On a different note, I think that everyone should be able to encounter and fight legendaries if the updator calls for it. Limiting this would stifle creativity and limit the novelty of adventures to a degree, and I'm of the persuasion that they can tie into a plot really well if done right (see: every mainline Pokémon game post Kanto). Of course, they wouldn't be able to catch it without having the item that I mentioned above, but having the possibility of having the ability to do so should be more than enough to encourage someone to contribute to the game.
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Old 08-07-2022, 06:50 PM   #4
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On a different note, I think that everyone should be able to encounter and fight legendaries if the updator calls for it. Limiting this would stifle creativity and limit the novelty of adventures to a degree, and I'm of the persuasion that they can tie into a plot really well if done right (see: every mainline Pokémon game post Kanto). Of course, they wouldn't be able to catch it without having the item that I mentioned above, but having the possibility of having the ability to do so should be more than enough to encourage someone to contribute to the game.
For the record, this currently and will always be the case. The updator just has to check with mods first.
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Old 08-07-2022, 06:50 PM   #5
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All right, I'm gonna get into an important aspect of legendaries here, that being, which of them should be made available? And, through careful consideration and deliberation, I believe I've arrived at a sensible answer;

Spoiler: show
ALL OF THEM.


...Yes. I believe that there is not a single legendary, Mythical, or Ultra Beast that should be outright barred from being owned in FB. Now, I know a lot of you have concerns about balancing, and the potential for someone to join FB, get ahold of a Mewtwo or Groudon or whatever, and dive into a zone and just level the place or what have you. Yes. That absolutely sounds alarming. But I think we're all overlooking one crucially important fact- FB has had a system in place all along that would already restrict the more destructively powerful legendaries from using their full power. Namely, the fact that all Pokémon owned by members must be caught in some manner of Poké Ball. Why, you might ask, does this matter in the slightest? Glad you might have asked! As an answer, lemme show here a file from the computer in Cyrus's office in Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, Brilliant Diamond, and Shining Pearl;

Quote:
According to myths, the Pokémon created Sinnoh with its power. However, capturing the Pokémon with a Poké Ball prevents it from using its full power... But with the Red Chain, the Pokémon can be shackled, and its power can be used without restraint...
...and there you have it. Catching Dialga or Palkia in a Poké Ball would prevent it from using its full power, which to Cyrus is a problem because that full power is exactly what he wants, hence Team Galactic going to all that trouble to create the Red Chain in the first place. And what's more, while this excerpt is clearly in reference to Dialga/Palkia specifically, the clear implication here is that this sort of restriction would apply to any legendary of comparable power caught in a Poké Ball. Even Arceus, in the Sinjoh Ruins event in HGSS, can't create a little baby legendary without the help of what looks to be like a thousand Unown, and guess what- you own the Arceus in that scenario, it is in a ball. It would also explain why Giovanni in the anime didn't simply catch Mewtwo and keep it in a ball- he wanted control of its full power.

So, what's the takeaway here? Some hotshot comes into a zone, sends out their Mewtwo, and orders it to level a city, the updator can just go "lol nope" and have any destruction greatly lessened, citing the fact that the Mewtwo is kept in a ball. If someone tries to be sneaky and get around this by breaking the ball, even if there's the implication that they're going to put it back into another one after the destruction is done, you can have the legendary simply express disappointment in the human and vanish. Like, it's gone, they lose it forever. Extreme, yeah, but we're talking an extreme scenario in the first place, and a blatant abuse of power. My point being, there's perfectly good ways to keep this from being game-breaking without having to say no to certain species.

Another point I wanted to address- size. Some of these things are just fucking huge. Celesteela and Guzzlord are prime examples. And honestly... we allow Wailord in this game. Those are even bigger. I know, Celesteela can fly, Wailord can't. Not normally, anyway- recall if you will how easy it is to shell out a few hundred Pokédollars to teach literally anything Magnet Rise. So, yeah, like... it'll be potentially obnoxious, but no more obnoxious than scenarios already possible within the game, so I don't really see this as a deal-breaker.

TL;DR: implementing legendaries, UBs, and Mythicals, I don't see it as something that has to be, like, us picking and choosing which ones are allowed based on power and size. I don't see it being a real issue, and I don't see there being any potential power trips that we couldn't nip in the bud with ease. The only real questions that I feel need to actually be addressed would be how to get them, as opposed to which ones should be possible to obtain. A discussion I might weigh in on later, but for now I at least wanted to get this much out there. Thank you.
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Old 08-07-2022, 06:52 PM   #6
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Rather than tie Legendaries to the Bi-Monthly Updater Rewards, I have an entirely different idea.

I think we should tie Legendaries to Zones.

Let me explain... We have Shadow Zones, correct? Well, wouldn't it stand to reason that, in the various Zones of Fizzytopia, certain Legends exist and are known to appear? They could be thematically tied to each zone - picked based on which Legendaries the community feels are OK to catch and own.

If you want to earn a particular legendary that's part of the Zone's pool, you need to update AND/OR adventure in that Zone. We already have people's updates and replies tracked - why not track those updates and responses? Those can be the "currency" people accumulate (with updates probably accumulating more "currency" than responses, but both counting towards earning a legendary), and once they earn enough points through updating/responding in a particular zone, they can encounter that legendary in a special area within that Zone, and capture it.

The reason I want to propose this is because I feel like, more than anything, we should be incentivizing Zones and zone adventures, from both sides of the proverbial coin. The Legendaries should be PART of the world they inhabit - and weaving them into the lore of a location, I think, would make them all the more interesting and intriguing.
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Old 08-07-2022, 07:41 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Marion Ette View Post

The reason I want to propose this is because I feel like, more than anything, we should be incentivizing Zones and zone adventures, from both sides of the proverbial coin. The Legendaries should be PART of the world they inhabit - and weaving them into the lore of a location, I think, would make them all the more interesting and intriguing.
I agree with this, as one of the newer people I want a legendary but I lack the knowledge of how everything works and would find it too pretty much impossible to feel comfortable updating any adventure anytime soon.

As an option for the legendary Pokeball why not use the GS Ball?

That being said I think just granting access to all of the legends willy-nilly is a poor idea because of scarcity. Some of the gods can get away with having multiple versions available via time shenanigans, like Dialga, Celebi, and I would say Hoopa, Palkia, and Arceus. And some of them are able to feasibly have just multiple around the world, like shamin, the bird and dog trio, manophe and pheon, dioxis on an intergalactic level, ultra beast obvi, the lake guardians, mewtwo are engineered same with magirna, so on and so forth. Not all of the pokemon can be counted for in the same way though and it should in my opinion stay that way. This is because you'd then have to explain why there are multiple and you could further advance the lore of legends by having the gods create a new version of that legend to fill the power vacume left in its absence. but what would happen if that captured get's released? it would create an imbalance in the cosmos and need to be rectified aka it needs to become something else. Does it become a shadow of what it once (marshadow) was does it loses its identity becoming unknown?
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Old 08-07-2022, 07:48 PM   #8
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I like the idea of legendaries being rewards for the most active of updaters, and it would be a disservice to the Pokémon themselves for them to get any less than an adventure to obtain them. My only hesitation is that Adventures as rewards like this often can get bogged down, (thinking of how the Realm of shadows could get bogged down because each silver umbra meant like 3 RP posts minimum for both shop owner and purchaser).

Now I don’t think this is enough dissuade the idea at all, because like I said it would suck for Legendary Pokémon too get any less, I just want it to be made aware of how I experienced this kind of reward in the past.
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Old 08-07-2022, 08:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Marion Ette View Post
Rather than tie Legendaries to the Bi-Monthly Updater Rewards, I have an entirely different idea.

I think we should tie Legendaries to Zones.

Let me explain... We have Shadow Zones, correct? Well, wouldn't it stand to reason that, in the various Zones of Fizzytopia, certain Legends exist and are known to appear? They could be thematically tied to each zone - picked based on which Legendaries the community feels are OK to catch and own.

If you want to earn a particular legendary that's part of the Zone's pool, you need to update AND/OR adventure in that Zone. We already have people's updates and replies tracked - why not track those updates and responses? Those can be the "currency" people accumulate (with updates probably accumulating more "currency" than responses, but both counting towards earning a legendary), and once they earn enough points through updating/responding in a particular zone, they can encounter that legendary in a special area within that Zone, and capture it.

The reason I want to propose this is because I feel like, more than anything, we should be incentivizing Zones and zone adventures, from both sides of the proverbial coin. The Legendaries should be PART of the world they inhabit - and weaving them into the lore of a location, I think, would make them all the more interesting and intriguing.
The only issue I have with this is that no matter how you slice it, if this "currency" only applies to one given zone and there are separate balances for each, then you have the scenario of "figure out where a Legendary you want lives, and grind activity in that Zone to the exclusion of all else." I'm already updating Blue in Djinn's, but let's say that, I dunno, Celebi showed up in Unreal tomorrow, whereas none of the Legendaries/Mythicals in Djinn's appeal to me all that much. Because no Zone will last forever, and their closure could happen at really any time, I suddenly have a huge incentive to prioritize any and all activity in Unreal that I have going, over any commitments I have elsewhere. But if this "currency" is universal, how do you handle the situation of one earning their points in other zones, then changing tack to a zone that they are only really interested in for a given Legendary?

All told, I'm more for the usable item-sorry, but sustaining a bi-monthly tier simply isn't a guarantee that can be made by anyone on either side of the coin. But rather than using the item to just show up wherever, it should be something one uses at the start of an adventure in a Zone, to find a Legendary that makes enough sense to show up there, through one means or another. That said, Memakyu influence is...a little hard to sort with this, because I'd imagine that most players aren't looking to amass a full set of Legendary Pokémon. There's only so many any given player will want, and it could be as few as just one. We already have the Birthday Egg set to not be a guaranteed Mema draw if the Mema has less than 8 Pokémon on it, and quite frankly the only player I can see as realistically putting 8 or more Legends on a Memakyu is MM, who has enough characters that I could probably make a spiders georg joke about it. I feel like a fair amount of people will usually be listing around 1-3, maybe 4-and at that point it's probably better to just have it consistently be a choice. In the interest of not making it a collectathon speed run, though, I would propose a cooldown something like-you earn one through bi-monthlies, and cannot earn another through bi-monthlies until two full periods pass from the time you caught that legendary. I specify "from bi-monthlies" in this cooldown because I know the plan is to essentially refund the item if the capture is turned down and I explicitly want to leave that alone.
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Old 08-07-2022, 08:38 PM   #10
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The only issue I have with this is that no matter how you slice it, if this "currency" only applies to one given zone and there are separate balances for each, then you have the scenario of "figure out where a Legendary you want lives, and grind activity in that Zone to the exclusion of all else." I'm already updating Blue in Djinn's, but let's say that, I dunno, Celebi showed up in Unreal tomorrow, whereas none of the Legendaries/Mythicals in Djinn's appeal to me all that much. Because no Zone will last forever, and their closure could happen at really any time, I suddenly have a huge incentive to prioritize any and all activity in Unreal that I have going, over any commitments I have elsewhere. But if this "currency" is universal, how do you handle the situation of one earning their points in other zones, then changing tack to a zone that they are only really interested in for a given Legendary?
A possible solution would be to have the legendary pools only apply to the special adventure that would be earned with sufficient credits, with the accumulation of points being across all zones. I would assume that, if a zone closes down, that legendary pool (and the zone's credits) would have some means to either transfer to a new zone or to an existing zone. It would mean that, in some instances, people would be earning credit in other zones for a legendary that resides elsewhere, but I don't necessarily think that's unworkable, especially since people who only update are not going to have that narrative buildup regardless.

Another possibility... Give updaters that flexibility, but for those who are adventuring, they can only earn credit for the legendaries in the pool of that zone. This could be the way that updaters have an advantage over their updatees, in that they earn towards all legendaries, while updatees only earn towards whichever pool they're receiving updates for. Again, these credits would need to be transferrable if the zone closes, so that they can continue to earn credit towards their pool, but I honestly think that's something that can be done. I'm not really concerned about zone closures, tbh.
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Old 08-07-2022, 08:48 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Marion Ette View Post
Rather than tie Legendaries to the Bi-Monthly Updater Rewards, I have an entirely different idea.

I think we should tie Legendaries to Zones.

Let me explain... We have Shadow Zones, correct? Well, wouldn't it stand to reason that, in the various Zones of Fizzytopia, certain Legends exist and are known to appear? They could be thematically tied to each zone - picked based on which Legendaries the community feels are OK to catch and own.

Just tossing this out there, Aboeral Cradle actually already had a list of Legends tied to it. There was a google doc floating around ( probably still is, I just don't have access to it anymore because I left the group chat that it was pinned in I think ). Hell, I even threw Volcanion and Diancie at TKF for plot shtuff.

Even EMP did it too, Tapu Bulu and Zygarde if I remember correctly so, in my opinion, I would not be against this. Even Victini is tied to Victory Island right now within NFC

My only concern is, IF we go this route, Legendary/Mythical/UB disbursement between zones because We have plans to eventually grow outside of UPN again even if that's far away enough for it to not be a problem now, what then? There's gonna be a lot of zones that will in some way or form that will have stakes to claim (insert legendary/UB/Mythic) in their zone and unless we allow for "Yeah these pokemon migrate between zones so its all good" I don't understand how we would solve it.

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Originally Posted by Marion Ette View Post
A possible solution would be to have the legendary pools only apply to the special adventure that would be earned with sufficient credits, with the accumulation of points being across all zones. I would assume that, if a zone closes down, that legendary pool (and the zone's credits) would have some means to either transfer to a new zone or to an existing zone. It would mean that, in some instances, people would be earning credit in other zones for a legendary that resides elsewhere, but I don't necessarily think that's unworkable, especially since people who only update are not going to have that narrative buildup regardless.

Another possibility... Give updaters that flexibility, but for those who are adventuring, they can only earn credit for the legendaries in the pool of that zone. This could be the way that updaters have an advantage over their updatees, in that they earn towards all legendaries, while updatees only earn towards whichever pool they're receiving updates for. Again, these credits would need to be transferrable if the zone closes, so that they can continue to earn credit towards their pool, but I honestly think that's something that can be done. I'm not really concerned about zone closures, tbh.
Like this might work in the here-and-now terms of the foreseeable future of Fizzby but Im thinking wayyyyyy long term here.

As for further opinion on usable item, I've got no real opinion on it


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Old 08-07-2022, 08:54 PM   #12
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I feel like we should be fine as long as we keep Djinn's Archives around, and have a copy of it on any board we expand to, since we could have adventures in basically any conceivable setting in that zone, and thus, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility to find any conceivable legendary in there in some fashion.
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Old 08-07-2022, 09:04 PM   #13
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I feel like we should be fine as long as we keep Djinn's Archives around, and have a copy of it on any board we expand to, since we could have adventures in basically any conceivable setting in that zone, and thus, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility to find any conceivable legendary in there in some fashion.
How would we track this in Djinn's? Would Djinn's basically serve as a special zone for all legendaries? Then, what would adventuring in Djinn's earn points towards? Just Hoopa? Its own pool? Or do we actually make it an "earn points toward any pool you want" to incentivize people to adventure there?
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Old 08-07-2022, 11:09 PM   #14
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Alrighty, time for me to toss my ideas into the pot. I have always been someone who has tried and pushed for legends or whatever GF has decided to call them into this game. Of course, please take all of what I've said as my own opinion, which were ideas I had brought up when discussing this. So no official mod stance here, just me as a member of the game.

First and foremost, I feel it's best if we allowed one Legendary, Mythical, and Ultra Beast per account. That way we keep the "scarcity" to them (which to me feels like bs with how GF gives them away like candy but w/e), as well as not overload someone with legends. One of each. We have sixty legends, twenty-two mythical, eleven ultra beasts, and counting for all. Hell, we have legends with regional forms now, the term is nothing special.

Next of all for these not-so-overpowered rabbits, we have COUNTLESS ways to have multiples of each and every single kind of legends whatsit in the game. Let's talk about the Hoopa in the room, whose multiversal shenanigans has even been used by game freak in ORAS to access multiple legends. Ultra Space, which has shown UBs being extremely dominant in their home worlds, also allows us to reach legends and mythicals. Not to mention we've seen multiple Lugia and Latios in the anime. Or uh, just look at Pokemon Go. Long story short, we have a ton of lore explanations that make these things incredibly common.

As for what's off the table? In my opinion: none. We don't allow Gardevoirs to create black holes on demand, don't have a Shedinja automatically steal your soul, etc. Most Pokedex entries, as pointed out with most of canon, are written by children. When a Pokemon is a Pokemon, it's a Pokemon, plain and simple. We use its in-game abilities. Use its move pool. Hell with Fizzy rules we have multiple Pokemon who far overpower a baseline legendary. MM's Weedle could probably eat a Genesect for breakfast, and I fear I have given him his next VG idea. jk MM go for it keep FIzyz Fizzy

Now, with that established, the question of obtaining them comes up. I'll be honest, at first, I was against it being updater only, but we are in an updating dearth. Take it from the most active updater in Fizzy Bubbles right now. We need updaters. It took me about a MONTH to just find a second replacement updater for Zelphon in my zone. That is unacceptable. If someone is willing to dedicate themselves that much, then they should be rewarded in return besides just a ladder and an extra reward six times a year.

While the idea of tying certain legends/whatever to zones is something that intrigues me, as a ZA who had just rewritten a zone... I'll be honest in saying that we really, really, REALLY need to avoid super lore-steeped zones. I had cut a lot of lore-heavy areas because it scared people off. It didn't interest them, and this is the feedback that we've had time and time again. The majority of people do not feel like a lore-heavy zone is approachable for them and their characters. Most zones should be open-ended enough where any of these Pokemon could realistically appear and have a story written around it. That's what I envision with MR, at the very least, where anything can appear there, and it is up to the updater and updatee to add that to the living story.

As for an item, I don't necessarily like it. It should just feel like any other encounter a story is built around. They are Pokemon at the end of the day. Things we catch in Pokeballs, regardless of their size or power. So, why do we have to gate something that Gamefreak and its subsidiaries are very much not? Let them be caught. Let them be our friends, our partners. Let them be Pokemon, instead of this other entity. We're not talking about catching Cthulhu, are we?

So, I feel legends should be tied to adventures. Initially, until we see more activity and growth in zones, I feel they should be an updater only reward. As adventures become more active, and people start updating more, then we can try and transition them to be available for the public. They are treated as any other Pokemon are once caught, and can be interacted with in the same capacities as others. Keep it so one per category per account, just so we can still keep the feel of these kinds of Pokemon, without making more arbitrary restrictions on them or what can be available. But yeah, legends and co are good and should have been more widely available and in the game long ago.

Actually scratch all of that hidden scavenger hunt and rewards from the Cram shop only *SHOT*
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Old 08-07-2022, 11:14 PM   #15
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Something that I forgot to mention earlier because brain-no-worky: I'm pretty sure that there's some sort of one-legendary-only limitation being discussed behind closed doors ninja'd, hi leo. I'd totally gun for it but I'd imagine that it would cause an absolute bloodbath because someone could catch, say, Shaymin and then try to auction it off in the White Market, resulting in a bidding war that would make an auction house blush. I doubt that this will happen considering that we're all mature enough to not intentionally do anything like that, but I just wanted to bring it up just in case we do eventually bring in other people who slip up on that front.

Anyway, I don't personally agree with the concept of legendaries being tied to specific zones, unless there's a very good reason for it. The problems brought up earlier in this thread would be very apparent, in addition to things just generally being very lopsided lore-wise. How would something like Groudon just stick around in UA when it's closely tied to Hoenn? This is admittedly a little petty of me to bring that up, but in a setting where storytelling is really important, it wouldn't make sense to leave a giant plothole hanging like that.

For all intents and purposes, I feel that legendaries should simply be gated behind a reward for being sufficiently active and positively contributing in some way (it doesn't have to be updating, but I understand that it's a big priority right now) to Fizzy Bubbles. Any extra limitations only serve to complicate an RPG that's already really complicated as is with all of the bookkeeping that you have to keep track of—something which I also have a few opinions on but aren't too appropriate to talk about in this thread.
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Old 08-08-2022, 12:30 AM   #16
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Honestly? I'm fine with one legend per account. There's technically two that Catharine would be inclined to have, but if I had to pick one of them it wouldn't be a hard choice, given that she literally built a shrine to it in her backyard. (Also, I'd absolutely Shiny Spray it. No sense having to invent a shiny hunting method for the thing, and I'd imagine that I'd earn the spray along the way to updating enough in the first place).
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Old 08-08-2022, 02:18 AM   #17
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Legendaries and Mythicals, one of each per account, I can get that. Maybe take it a step further and allow one legendary that's considered a sublegendary (y'know, your Articuno, your Thundurus, your Regidrago), and one legendary that isn't (so stuff like Groudon, Yveltal, Calyrex, that sort of thing). Meaning one member would be allowed to own a Spectrier, an Eternatus, and a Genesect, to give an example.

Ultra Beasts, though? I am in favor of zero restrictions on those specifically. In terms of the games' internal code, they're lumped in with the sublegendaries, but in terms of ingame lore, they're their own thing, decidedly not limited in quantity, and with no more destructive potential than your larger and more rampage-happy sorts of Pokémon that we're already allowed to own. I'm talking, a Cloud Garden Snowdown-type event to introduce them into FB, we each get one Beast Ball and get to walk away from the event with one UB. I'm talking Beast Balls added to the Department Store, and UBs encounterable normally in zones. Maybe not super frequently, maybe you gotta work a little more for them, but in any case, the more I think about them, the more I feel they really don't need to be lumped in with the legendaries and Mythicals to quite that extent.

As for how to obtain them, I'm OK with it being locked to updators if only for the time being. I am not in favor of that staying the case moving forward- only for as long as it takes for this to resolve what I think we can all agree is a huge problem FB faces right now- the aforementioned lack of updators. This is why I'm OK with that proposal for the time being, because I cannot blame the mods for seeing this as an opportunity to solve the problem.

As far as how to make them available, I like the idea of an item, but not one that you would use to actually do the physical catching, like- no, not a new kind of Poké Ball (much as I would relish what I see as a perfect opportunity to bring up Master Balls even after getting confirmation that the mods don't think they should exist in the game). I'm thinking more along the lines of a Silver Umbra kind of deal- a token you can exchange for either starting an adventure in which you would have the chance to catch a legendary, or for getting your updater to insert a legendary in an ongoing adventure for you, provided you hash it out with said updater beforehand and ensure that's actually cool with them. Call it something like a Myth Token. In fact, that's what I'll call it for the remainder of this post for sake of example.

For the time being, locking this to updators, OK, fine, I do get it. Shortage of updators is a real problem that needs fixing, and taking this as an opportunity to try and do so, makes perfect sense to me. But later on down the road, once the updator problem is either resolved completely or at least lessened to a point we're comfortable with, I say stick the Myth Token in Staff Rewards, so the availability of legendaries and Mythicals extends to anyone capable of earning FC.

On another note, we'll need to address the issue of how to evolve Meltan, but I feel there's a pretty simple solution- implement the Mystery Box as a consumable evolution item and add it to the Department Store.

...and as a side note to close this on, is it updater or updator? I've been using the two spellings pretty much interchangeably for as long as I can remember.
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Old 08-08-2022, 07:10 AM   #18
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So, from my perspective... If we're making the argument that:

1) Catchable legendaries do not have the same world-bending powers that their Pokedexes claim, and we're making that canon in Fizzy,
2) There are multiples of all of them, and
3) We're using them to incentivize updaters...

I actually feel like there's no strong argument to limit the number of legendaries each person receives per account.

1) Someone, theoretically, could have a full team of Legendaries in Fizzy, and if we agree that they're no more powerful than any other Pokémon, really, then they're not going to have any material advantage.
2) If there are multiples of each, then there's no risk of someone "Catchin' 'em all" and leaving no legendaries available for everyone else. Theoretically, everyone could own every legendary, if they all update enough.
3) Which brings me to point #3... If we limit number of legendaries per account, and an updater earns their 1 legendary and 1 mythical... Well, they're done. That carrot no longer exists for them. That updater is no longer incentivized by legendaries.

My previous arguments had been made with the core idea in mind that legendaries should still have some... mystique, or lore, or aspect to them that deserves a narrative - that they should be the stuff of legends. If we take the opposite view that they're just Pokémon who represent these legendary forces, rather than wielding them, then I don't understand the point of having limitations on them at all, other than making them something you earn.
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Old 08-08-2022, 09:48 AM   #19
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Also having to choose just one legendary for Forever is kind of a bummer. FizzB is a Long lived game and resets and multiple characters are a product of indecision and need to avoid stagnation like that. If you have to limit them I think they should be Per Character at minimum but probably more than that. Not to mention it’s bad future proofing while new games are coming out. If a new game has the coolest legendary ever would you have to give up the one you already went on an epic adventure to get and potentially used in other spaces to bond with?
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Old 08-08-2022, 10:18 AM   #20
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Will try and expand on this when I'm at my laptop, but honestly I agree with Marion and biggggg. If they're gonna be effectively no stronger than the Pokémon we already have access to, why restrict legendaries and Mythicals at all at this point? By all means keep them special and make us work for them but the more I think about it, if, say, having a Regidrago is in practice no worse than having a Haxorus, and we can conceivably own multiple Haxorus, why not multiple Regidrago? This also brings up the whole fusion mechanic that some legendaries have- B/W Kyurem, Nebbycrozma, and the rider forms of Calyrex. All forms that obviously entail owning more than one legendary, and going by logic we already agreed upon, possessing of no more destructive potential in FB than stuff we're already allowed to have.
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Old 08-08-2022, 11:03 AM   #21
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Wow, a lot has been discussed since I conked out last night.

I think everyone has good points, honestly. This is a really delicate topic to navigate because to my knowledge, Legendaries for most of FB history been seen as something unattainable, to the point where they were subject to a April Fools' prank gone wrong several years ago.

Because of that perception, I can understand why people would be hesitant to open this particular can of Wurmples. This is potentially a very big change, and the onus behind it is also a big issue for the community right now.

However, building off of what several others said: If we want to normalize Legendaries as companions that Trainers can encounter or attain like any other Pokemon—albeit rarely and potentially under special conditions—then we also have to cast away the idea that they are super-powerful gods. Bring them more in line with how they actually function in the games, especially since games like PLA already imply that the act of catching a Pokemon suppresses their full power, or just outright state that some Legendaries are merely fragments of a larger being.

I think that's for the best, overall. The potential for a power-trip during an adventure, Gym Battle or Secret Base RP is something that has been brought up—and I agree that if we continue to put Legendaries up on this pedestal even while people start obtaining them, drama may very well be the result.

To that end... I don't see why they need to be restricted per account, if the method of even encountering them is already something you'd have to work long and hard for. If someone wants to trick themselves out with a full team, and they put in the necessary work—why stop them? It's not like we're making them breedable or available though the gacha Hatchery.

I'll second what Marion has said, as well. If this is to be our ace in the hole for getting more activity, then once people have hit their cap, that's where the incentive ends. Now, personally, I would hope that people would continue even beyond that point because they've found updating something they enjoy, but I also recognize that not everyone is motivated by the same things.

As for how it's implemented: I do like Legend Zones, but I also recognize that they are at odds with current plans to reduce the amount of lore-dependent areas, and to expand beyond UPN in the far future. If we decide to tie it to Bi-Monthlies, the FC Ladder, or to a new shop entirely, I'd like to keep the zone idea on the backburner for when we feel comfortable letting it expand to the wider userbase.

---

All that said, I also want to cut to the heart of the issue, and part of why this change is being considered: I'll reiterate what has been said before, and that's that we NEED more updaters to help keep Fizzy active.

If people are waiting for adventures to get picked up, it's not because those of us who are active aren't interested in your adventures or characters—we're just already loaded up on adventures right now, and not wanting to overburden ourselves and potentially burn out on FB.

I've heard some talk that people are hesitant to update because they don't know the game well enough. I was in that position when I first joined the game, myself—however, I can say with certainty that you don't need to be a Fizzy Expert to start updating. Even after all this time and all this updating, I still ask questions about how certain systems work—and it's thanks to the mods and our Fizzy veterans that I get the help I need, when I need it.

But, this also raises a deeper point: We've been discussing this under the assumption that rewards like these—rather than the copious amounts of rewards we already offer—are what will get people updating. This is the third or fourth iteration of a strategy that, evidently, hasn't been doing enough work to get us out of this drought.

So, I want this question to be directed to EVERYONE, not just the people already here in this thread:

Are Legendary encounters a reward that would motivate you to try updating?
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Old 08-08-2022, 11:28 AM   #22
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So, for my idea on restricting them, that was something I came up with back in early 2021 when I was first elected, since I knew the userbase/moderation team at the time was a lot more conservative towards the idea of legendaries being in the game. That was something part of my shot-down proposal as a way to try and keep the mystique to them that the player base at the time wanted to keep. I know we still have members that feel that way, and I don't want to disrespect them on this matter.

As for me personally, I'm fine without a limit. Since, well, it's going to take a long time to even get these in the first place. If anything, I rather just have the limit when first implemented to test the waters and see how the user base handles that. If things go full well, then we can have the limit removed. I can't speak for Sniz or Enigma on this, this is just my own thoughts. If we think to just toss the limit out as a whole, then yeah that's fine too. I rather just test the waters with this and see how they go.

To answer Shadow's question: Yes. It is a further motivator to keep updating.

Now, onto something that caught my eye and that's what MM said about mechanics about specific legends. I feel like we do need to hard discuss this as well, and that once we figure out if legends are just a yes or no and how they're obtained, we should dive head first into that. We're talking about over 90 or so Pokemon with a lot of unique mechanics just to them.
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Old 08-08-2022, 11:29 AM   #23
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Shutting some of this down to get us back on track a bit.

This discussion is not about number of obtainable Legends, only how to make them obtainable. We will be setting a number limit to keep things initially easy to monitor that may or may mot expand in the future.

I'll be combing through discussion later with the intent to prune ideas that won't work (yes you'll be told why), and shining a light on points that I feel may be best workable.
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Old 08-08-2022, 11:43 AM   #24
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Shutting some of this down to get us back on track a bit.

This discussion is not about number of obtainable Legends, only how to make them obtainable. We will be setting a number limit to keep things initially easy to monitor that may or may mot expand in the future.

I'll be combing through discussion later with the intent to prune ideas that won't work (yes you'll be told why), and shining a light on points that I feel may be best workable.
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Old 08-08-2022, 12:03 PM   #25
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First off I'd like to say how happy I am that we're finally taking the steps to allow Legendaries and their ilk into FB! I feel like it's been a long time coming and honestly, it just feels weird they weren't around already after we did away with a lot of the artificial scarcity older systems had.

One thing I would like to touch on in regards to the proposed limitations is that I feel is the slot allotment, I feel like instead of being allowed 1 of each per account that the slots should instead be usable on any of the 3 groups. Put simply some folks are just going to be much more inclined towards one group of these pokemon more than others, notably, I know many don't particularly care for UBs or may simply have trainer characters more interested in "big smashies" which Mythicals don't provide that much of.

Another subject I'd like to touch on is the (somewhat) common thought that various pokemon should be considered too rare or extraterrestrial to be obtained by trainers. Put simply we are the main characters of our own stories so rare phenomena taking place around our characters makes enough sense to hand wave wormholes and the like...and there is plainly more evidence for there being multiple of every Legendary pokemon than there is against it. Heck, we've even seen a proverbial sea of Shaymin, a Mythical.

Onward to the acquisition method, I am wholly behind the idea of it being Updator only, we've frankly been dry on them and this is a nice shiny thing to reward them with. I do think the bi-monthly could be a bit sketchy but frankly, if this does work as an incentive for folks the "needing someone to update the Legendary Adventures" problem kind of solves itself since folks could simply update amongst themselves.

However, I do completely disagree with the idea of these being "Encounter" adventures, frankly, if people are contributing enough to unlock one of these special adventures they should be able to catch it and choose what pokemon it is straight out, their updator can simply treat it as a writing prompt so their individual flow shouldn't really be impacted.


As a final point, I'd like to make regardless of what limitations, systems, and other decisions we end up having made once this discussion comes to a close and everything is implemented, everything is always subject to change. We might not always have just 3 slots, the exact update requirements may lower or increase and it's generally better to implement things more conservatively and work our way to a more open/free state than start too big and dial things back.

P.S. If you're in a legendary adventure, please bring a "shitmon" of a similar type but tricked out with a move ocean and ping me when you do, I wanna see shit like a Magikarp kicking the shit out of Kyogre lol!

P.S.S. I apologize to anyone who had to read my atrocious sentence and word structure for 500+ words, this is why I'm always so quick to the point when I write >_<
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