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Old 12-20-2016, 10:48 AM   #3226
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I feel things are a huge matter of perspective. I agree with Mozz entirely about the non-college jobs. I didn't see it in California, but I did see and learned to respect those choices after I moved.

There is a stigma in the United States when it comes to college - if you are intelligent, or of a certain amount of wealth, you are looked down on if you don't meet the following conditions:

-go to a competitive university
-go for four years
-earn a tough degree

It doesn't matter how success you are because this is like a rite of passage, and dodging it in any way, however more representative of intelligence, like the cheaper community college to university route, is considered inferior.

I live in an area now swarming with millionaires, but it's mostly small businessmen or people who have acquired wealth through inheritance. My feeling is high school students or my coworkers at Wal-Mart hold a lot of disdain for people like this, even though they lack degrees themselves. Further disdain is held for those who go to the local, party-school style regional university and get some cruise control degree.

Talon's correct in that my ASCP board of certification is probably my most powerful accomplishment and the one that matters for jobs, but I only have to flash my four degrees to stun an audience.

Although, I picked my majors based on utility, so even though I would have preferred having a single engineering degree, unlike the vast majority of college students I actually draw on my college education quite a lot.

Also Shuckle you misunderstood my point earlier. College students bring money, money into a community gentrifies the community. See: Merced, California after the opening of UC Merced. Granted, UC Merced sucks and the gentrification is slower than San Francisco, but it's happening. There was a HUGE HUGE HUGE spike in property values in that area once the university neared completion, forcing a number of existence residents out of the city.
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Old 12-21-2016, 08:08 AM   #3227
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This is the complete opposite of my experience and those of people I know.
The median starting salary for Business/Finance, the area you're most likely to come into contact to, is not actually the highest out of all starting salaries (Engineering, at $64k a year, wins that easily). Which is a little damning for BusA, honestly, since it's the poster child for School As Investment.

However, the lowest-paying college major (considered ONLY through median salary, remember) isn't even a humanities degree. It's Education. At a stinging $35k/yr. Ouch.

BusA: 52k median starting salary

English: 46k median starting salary

For the cost of 6k off your starting salary, you can do a major you like instead of some business horseshit you won't do well in.

Is it great? No. Will it pay the bills as fast? No. Will you have as many opportunities for advancement? Well, uh, technically, nah.

But! Even if you're looking at college as an investment, the Hamilton Project assures us that college grads still earn more than high school grads, and even education majors make enough to pay off their student loans.

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There's nothing wrong with getting a degree in something you want to do. That's my final answer, Mozz.
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Old 12-21-2016, 09:27 AM   #3228
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Wait, that chart makes no sense. Why is the high school grad making 3k a year out of school?

This also doesn't address the actual idea of ROI. I don't believe that NOBODY SHOULD EVER get an English degree, but maybe don't pay 60k a year for a (relatively) garbage school like Scranton, pay the 15k in-state for PSU instead.
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:48 AM   #3229
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In California, the starting salary for high school teachers is $60K and being a substitute is even better. The state is desperate for educators and has bottom barrel requirements.

Nobody should go into an expensive university as an English major if they intend to teach at high school or below. If you want to break into one of the specialty studies, like Renaissance Literature, and want to be published, you go to a stupid school to join one of the elite cliques of such a study. Rather than get an education, you are paying for the access to the gatekeepers of the profession.

Very similar to the actuary initiation process - you can do actuarial work, but are not recognized as an actuary until the professional society awards you that title.

...

Anyway, I disagree with your conclusion Shuckle:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle
There's nothing wrong with getting a degree in something you want to do.
Ideas like this are what perpetuate the college-migration stupidity. The correct advice should be:

"There's nothing wrong with going to college for something you want to do."

If you intend to be a construction site foreman, going to college is close to worthless. You could get a degree in civil engineering which might help out somewhat, but the opportunity cost is the on-job experience, foregone salary and tuition spent getting that education. The opportunity cost of my two years post-college, pre-graduate school was close to $48,000.

This is why people pay lawyers for legal advice rather than go to law school so they don't have to ask someone, the soft costs alone can outweigh the hard benefits.
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Old 12-21-2016, 11:48 AM   #3230
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Wait, that chart makes no sense. Why is the high school grad making 3k a year out of school?
The chart is mean, so that would suggest that people out of high school struggle to find reliable employment.

Quote:
This also doesn't address the actual idea of ROI. I don't believe that NOBODY SHOULD EVER get an English degree, but maybe don't pay 60k a year for a (relatively) garbage school like Scranton, pay the 15k in-state for PSU instead.
While I do agree, especially in your example, liberal arts/humanities degrees do vary significantly in value depending on what school you graduate from. You can end up making 40k/yr (Scranton, PSU), or you could end up making 150k/yr (Harvard, Dickinson). Getting a degree from a better institution can make a difference.

@Dopple: Semantics. Please. If you want to be a civil engineer, go ahead and get a degree in civil engineering. If you don't, and here's the tricky part: don't get a degree in civil engineering.
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Old 12-21-2016, 12:58 PM   #3231
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compare the earning power of someone learning a trade out of HS to someone getting an English lit degree from an average school. That chart smells incredibly bad.
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Old 12-21-2016, 01:19 PM   #3232
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In California, the starting salary for high school teachers is $60K and being a substitute is even better. The state is desperate for educators and has bottom barrel requirements.
I thought this was interesting and so looked into it. Sure enough:

http://www.ctc.ca.gov/credentials/teach-secondary.html

It looks like, while you still have to jump through a number of hoops (I chose the internship program for my example), it's a lot easier to become a teacher in California than I would've thought. For instance, it doesn't look like they require degrees in Education. And it looks like for a lot of their university accreditation requirements they also allow you to opt for a placement exam in lieu of these. So like ... theoretically, I could ask to take the exam, take it, and I guess I'd have most of the bullet points checked off after passing.

Still looks like 1-2 years' worth of effort though. I imagine that will scare away most softcore teachers who are only attracted by the allure of the $60k salary.
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Old 12-21-2016, 01:23 PM   #3233
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Quote:
However, the lowest-paying college major (considered ONLY through median salary, remember) isn't even a humanities degree. It's Education. At a stinging $35k/yr. Ouch.
IF YOU DO WHAT YOU LOVE THE MONEY DOESN'T MATTER :^D
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Old 12-21-2016, 01:53 PM   #3234
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IF YOU DO WHAT YOU LOVE THE MONEY DOESN'T MATTER :^D
unfortunatly
these days that proves more and more untrue.
We kind of have to make enough money to get by.
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Old 12-21-2016, 02:22 PM   #3235
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IF YOU DO WHAT YOU LOVE THE MONEY DOESN'T MATTER :^D
The worst part is that it's still over double the minimum wage

EDIT: the reason for this is because teaching does not make anybody money. because of this, the monetary value of educators is actually quite low, unless you're going into something like special education that can't be done by just anyone.

the government TRIED to fix this problem with programs like NCLB that tried to measure the performance of educators and reward schools based on this, but unfortunately it didn't go the way they'd hoped.

The only way to really raise the salaries of educators is to mandate it. Catholic and other private schools pay teachers even less, so the market is only going to drive educator salaries downwards.
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Old 12-21-2016, 04:49 PM   #3236
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>double the minimum jesus

Setanta.

Also that was pretty sarcastic, and in truth I would probably be going for more of a Chemistry major and Education if I could.
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Old 12-28-2016, 02:25 PM   #3237
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sup
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Old 12-29-2016, 12:37 AM   #3238
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sup
my blood pressure
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:24 AM   #3239
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Just a reminder, reworking NAFTA induces collateral damage in the interest of retaining American jobs. American companies voluntarily choosing to stay in the United States (like Ford, Carrier) directly solves the export problem without dismantling what good NAFTA does do.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:05 AM   #3240
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>mfw Trump praises Julian Assange 6 years after he called for his execution
>mfw the next President openly praised Wikileaks
>mfw I have no face
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:31 AM   #3241
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pls pardon Eddie, Donald #letitsnowden
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:38 PM   #3242
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pls pardon Eddie, Donald #letitsnowden
I know you're joking but Donald hates Snowden.

At least, he did. Maybe Russia's changed his tune
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:53 PM   #3243
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That's the worst hashtag I've ever seen, regardless of my feelings towards Snowden.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:01 AM   #3244
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I don't even care if this news is fake, this is amazing.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:16 AM   #3245
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What news?
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:26 AM   #3246
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The long and short of it is that, according to a (more than likely fake) report publicised by Buzzfeed, Trump was recorded by russian bugs in the presidential suite of the Ritz Carson hotel hiring prostitutes to defile (for lack of a term that's both more accurate and work-safe) a bed the Obamas slept in.

I am greatly enjoying the second coming of a "pig gate"-esque political situation, for those that recall the scandal former Prime Minister David Cameron was accused of a year or two ago.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:44 AM   #3247
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The long and short of it is that, according to a (more than likely fake) report publicised by Buzzfeed, Trump was recorded by russian bugs in the presidential suite of the Ritz Carson hotel hiring prostitutes to defile (for lack of a term that's both more accurate and work-safe) a bed the Obamas slept in.

I am greatly enjoying the second coming of a "pig gate"-esque political situation, for those that recall the scandal former Prime Minister David Cameron was accused of a year or two ago.
Half the Internet seems to echo your "lol Buzzfeed jumped the gun and published a /pol/ fanfic" take on it, but the other half is saying stuff like this:

Quote:
Intelligence chiefs allege Russians have compromising personal information on Donald Trump: The claims allege the now-President-elect had been in contact with Russian intermediaries for five years
Quote:
Has anyone bothered to ask John McCain about the report since he's the person who reportedly provided the intelligence to the FBI?
Quote:
From the Guardian article:

"The Guardian can confirm that the documents reached the top of the FBI by December. Senator John McCain, who was informed about the existence of the documents separately by an intermediary from a western allied state, dispatched an emissary overseas to meet the source and then decided to present the material to Comey in a one-on-one meeting on 9 December, according to a source aware of the meeting. The documents, which were first reported on last year by Mother Jones, are also in the hands of officials in the White House.

McCain is not thought to have made a judgment on the reliability of the documents but was sufficiently impressed by the source’s credentials to feel obliged to pass them to the FBI.

The Senate armed services committee, which Senator McCain chairs, launched an inquiry last week into Russian cyber-attacks during the election.

McCain was reluctant to get involved, according to a colleague, for fear the issue would be dismissed as a personal grudge against Trump. He pushed instead for the creation of a special Senate committee to look into connections between campaign staff and Moscow, but the proposal was blocked by the Republican leadership."

Edit: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ussia-contacts
Whether the Guardian is a trashy tabloid or not, the claims made within that third block of text would certainly seem to suggest that, at bare minimum, John McCain really has carried out his own private investigation of Trump's connections with Russia.

Also, separate from the matter of the veracity behind these claims, there is the issue of whether the Republican Party establishment is trying to rally their voterbase against Trump, despite the election, as preparation for a planned early ouster. Whether that ouster would result in Mike Pence as President, someone else in line as President, or (crazy as it would certainly seem) our first ever presidential re-election.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:57 AM   #3248
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That's a good point - I've long thought the Republicans considered Trump's nomination as a shot to their own metaphorical foot, and I don't see reason to doubt any of the other files present in the dossier. This could be... incredibly condemning for Trump.

I'd think of those possibilities, Pence coming into the role is the most likely, but I wouldn't be all too surprised if the entire Trump campaign and everyone associated was jossed. This could very well be the beginning of some political turmoil.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:17 AM   #3249
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>Whether the Guardian is a trashy tabloid or not

For what it's worth the Guardian is one of our serious newspapers (probably the most left wing credible news source in the UK). For good quality UK news you're looking at the Guardian, Independent, Times, Telegraph, BBC and Channel 4.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:02 AM   #3250
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Yeah, that wasn't a swipe at it. You guys just have so many newspapers that it is seriously hard to keep straight which ones are which quality. All I really have memorized are "Daily Mail = garbage" and "BBC = traditionally world-class but has declined over the last 20 years; still a serious outlet though".
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