Online Competitive Pokemon Battle Showdown Happy Fun Times

[Heather]

But you also get +4 SpDefense and troll all the mega latis with their draco meteors by being able to tank them and then smite them. Sure its only for soecial attackers but in BH the defense boost is nice to have.

[Emi]

Oh no I get that, but with boost punishing being a very common thing having to rely on something you can only do once is extremely risky.

[Heather]

The point is that at +4 SpAtk and +4 Speed you only NEED to do it once.

[Emi]

That's not how it works. What happens if you run into something with Prankster Topsy-Turvy? You get -4 in each and you lose the ability to ever use it again. Boost punishing is very common.

[rotomotorz]

Y'all forgot Tail Glow

[Heather]

Originally Posted by blazeVA

That's not how it works. What happens if you run into something with Prankster Topsy-Turvy? You get -4 in each and you lose the ability to ever use it again. Boost punishing is very common.

You forget that we live in two different realms of the ladder and so where I live Prankster Topsy-Turvy is rare as all hell. Though thanks, I'll use that now!

Accidental random battle but YOU WERE A FIGHTER ROTOM

[Snorby]

Heatmor is really, really cool in FU.

[Heather]

I Finally found my perfect Simple Shell Smasher, guys! He's...creepy...But he also slaughters Blisseys!

I mention Blissey getting killed becaus eof one of these that slayed my Blissey with ease. Damn Hyperspace Fury.

[rotomotorz]

More Skill Swap shenanigans

Oops I know Wide Guard

[Jerichi]

So Greninja's gone.

Reactions?

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

So Greninja's gone.

Reactions?

Missed the test almost entirely. I have probably battled a grand total of eight times, across all formats, since the test began. I only would have counted for one vote, but still.

Aside from that, Smogon's fighting a losing fight. Greninja is Ash's inevitable Kalosian MVP at this point, and things like Smash Bros. also promote the frog. Banning such a species is only going to make younger players question Smogon. This is like if they had banned Infernape in Gen 4.

[Heather]

Amd we bid farewell to the one starters hat didn't need a mega to be viable. Honestly, we handled the frog well enough at the start back when the meta was centralized as all hell on it near to the levels of Mega Kanga or Mega Lucario. What changed that it was suddenly Banworthy? Honestly if I could choose either Greninja or Aegislash to get unbanned, I'd pick the frog. I'm going to predict a resurgence of Starmie, Dragon types, or both, as Greninja was a pain in both their rear ends, Starmie for being outclassed, dragons for all the lolIceBeam. Sure, Protean might seem ridiculous with always having STAB, I felt that way back in Gen 6's early days back when I couldn't think of something better than BellyJet Azumarill as a sweeper. But honestly, with the right tools, ProteN is a non issue and can even become Greninja's Achilles heel for mons like Weavile to exploit by being faster. Greninja's one way out of that is Water Shuriken, and who runs that if they're not being insane and actually trying Physical Greninja? I've seen one person try that in my realm of the ladder, which says something. Basically, you can't say that Greninja is too broken now without saying you've let something extremely broken run around OU for about a year and a half or so while focusing on less important stuff like MegaMawile. Another ban I have to cock my head at, as MegaMawile has no saving graces from omnipresent EQ and oft requires an SD set up to sweep effectively. And if your opponent happens to be carrying fire coverage? You're cooked. Honestly, I don't think the ban council has the meta's best interests at heart anymore. This ban came too late to give that impression, not that it should have occurred.

[Jerichi]

I can't say I saw it that way but their axing of a fan favorite could create some trouble I suppose.

Honestly, though, I just think it shows how awful OU has become and how it's basically not worth playing anymore, but people stick with it because it's somehow become ingrained as the "real" format for Pokémon.

>Myles

It's pretty simple, I think. Lots of things that scared Greninja have either been further scared off by new threats, been banned or otherwise devalued. Gunk Shot and Low Kick definitely help Greninja since their sheer existence makes previous walls like Clefable a shaky switch and downgrade them from a counter to a check at best.

[Whimsy]

[Heather]

You act as if Weavile is the only way I have to skin the frog. Baiting an Ice Beam with Flygon, using Yache to survive it, then retaliating with Fire Punch can either murderize it or put it in enough pain to be revenge killed by something next turn, whatever it is is another thing I do. And MetaShifted!Frog is no issue for me as it has little to counter what I used to kill preShift!Frog save Low Sweep to kill Weavile, but I'd switch out of that faster than a max speed Deoxys-S. Sure, Weavile is one way to kill the frog, but there's more than one way to kill ninja amphibians. What slows those ways down requires running Water Shuriken for priority and lolWater Shuriken.

[Snorby]

>Myles
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Flygon: 377-447 (125.2 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yache Berry Flygon: 377-447 (103.5 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yache Berry Flygon: 265-312 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

You need max Sdef to avoid being OHKO'd through Yache by mixed Greninja. And even then?

4 Atk Flygon Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 150-178 (52.4 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You barely even 2HKO back. This calc uses pure Ice typing for Greninja, by the way.

Seriously, if you're gonna say that Greninja is easy to beat, cite things that are relevant in OU, and actually beat Greninja.

[Heather]

I'm aware of Life Orb. I'm aware my strategy isn't perfect, but that's why its a secondary option. Besides, it's not meant to handle it entirely on its own, but rather sacrifice something that's in your own words "not OU relevant" to be able to use nearly anything to revenge kill the thing. The frog has never been a problem for me. Trust me on that one. I'd remember if it was.

[Sparkbeat]

You've also said it yourself that you "dwell on a different part of the ladder," meaning the lower end where the average player is not very good in the grand scheme of things. As such, the fact that the frog was never a problem for you doesn't mean anything in terms of whether it should have been banned or not. When bans happen, the justification comes from the top percentage of players. Whether you had problems with Greninja or not is entirely irrelevant, and your thoughts and opinions on its banning are going to hold no weight whatsoever because of the fact you apparently don't care for playing or observing competitive Pokemon at its highest level of play, which is the level of play bans are meant for.

I mean, it's fine you want to use underused things, but people are probably going to call you out if they don't work or you act like they should justify a decision made by the top players of the game. Having fun with underused things is good, but I guess what I'm trying to say in the nicest way I can is don't expect higher level players, or players who want to play at a higher level, to listen to your opinions on decisions that effect high level play. I like you Myles, and I like using things that are just fun to use too, but I've also come to terms with the fact I am completely out of touch with the meta because of it, so I don't expect anyone to listen to me.

[Heather]

I would agree except that the frog is kinda ubiquitous in that you'll find him in top form no matter where you are on the ladder, a truly OverUsed pokemon. Every meta has that one Pokemon that stands out a ton that people use a ton. Balanced Hackmons has Sturdydinja and Imposter Blissey, for example. You'll find those on all parts of the Balanced Hackmon ladder because Sturdydinja is a fantastic momentum killer and Blissey's shtick is "anything you can do I can do better," making the two of them fantastic assets no matter your level of play. Greninja is much the same, however, not being a Hackmon, it's much easier to kill. Now maybe since I'm not high ladder my team isn't defined for me by a bunch of top ten snobs that are having the actual problems, but personally, I'll take dealing with the frog over having the "perfect team" team defined for me to decide whether the frog is okay or not. If you're not prepared to face natural selection allowing something to make a comeback from certain counters while opening itself up to new ones, it's my opinion that you don't deserve a place on the ladder. If we keep banning the star player of OU every other month like this, we'll not have an OU tier anymore soon enough.

[Snorby]

I somehow doubt you're seeing this Greninja on "your" part of the ladder as much as you would on higher parts:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse / Extrasensory / Hydro Pump
- Low Kick / Spikes / Hidden Power Fire / Grass Knot

This is essentially the Greninja that Smogon was looking at when they banned it. No Water Shuriken, no item other than life orb, the EVs needed to take out things like Clefable and AV Azumarill without trouble, etc. The difference between this and Imposter Blissey is that, by virtue of the way Imposter Blissey plays, they're all basically the same, guarenteed, no matter what level of play you're at. Greninja, on the other hand, has a movepool the size of the sun, with some excellent options, some interesting niche options, and many mediocre and even downright horrible options. Generally, you're more likely to see the latter two categories on the lower ladder than you are on the higher one.

Also, on the topic of what you said earlier about saccing something to get a revenge kill? You've defeated your own argument right here. The way Greninja should be played, besides as a cleaner, is to force you to sac things, particularly things that beat the opponent's sweeper, and then flee from the match to kill something else later, and rinse and repeat into LO recoil kills it, it gets hit with Pursuit, or Greninja isn't useful anymore. By making sacs in order to attempt a revenge kill, you are doing exactly what a competent Greninja user wants you to do, as this hands the momentum to them and softens up your team for a mid- or late-game sweep.

[Heather]

No, Greninja is pretty common, and very commonly copypasted as for your Sacing point, that's why you sac something that's not likely to be the sole counter to another team member, doofus. Something that you yourself said is not OU relevant. It is BAIT.

As for Blissey, the move pool isn't the point I'm making. What Blissey does in BH makes her extremely hard to kill, while killing OU Greninja just takes some thought. I don't use Greninja anymore because frankly it's too predictable because of how overused it has been in its lifetime and too likely to be countered if I do run it.

Also please PLEASE tell me you typo'd low kick and meant Low Sweep. Because why anything would run Low Kick in a meta where most heavy things are defensive/bulky as hell when the thing running it isn't meant to be physical is beyond me, while speed drops are better and ensure that stuff like Scarf isn't ruining Greninja's speed dominance, which it heavily relies on.

[Snorby]

Okay, first off, give me one Greninja counter not named Chansey or Porygon2. Have fun, because you can't.

Secondly, if you are running non-viable mons in OU because you want to have mons that you don't need so you can sac them to Greninja, you are, quite frankly, playing pokemon entirely wrong. You might as well put a level 1 Magikarp in that slot. Since I hope to God that isn't what you're implying you do, I will elaborate on another point. Greninja is so ridiculously difficult to actually kill, because of the existence of a switch button, that eventually you will be saccing your counter to their Xard, their Pinsir, their Lopunny, their Metagross.

The fact that you think Low Sweep is better than Low Kick is absolutely laughable. I implore you to actually calc the damage.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-377 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 174-205 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 452-536 (112.1 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 250-296 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 250-296 (67.2 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 203-242 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 190-226 (53.9 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 125-148 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 172-203 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 312-369 (88.3 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 369-437 (91.1 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 198-237 (48.8 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 164-195 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 250-296 (88.9 - 105.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 218-260 (60.7 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 406-478 (113 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Sweep vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 198-237 (61.3 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 369-437 (114.2 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you can't see why Low Kick is a better option for Greninja than Low Sweep now, I honestly don't have anything more to say to you. Surprising a Scarf Keldeo on the switch or something is pointless when you can just hit it with Gunk Shot on the switch and then switch out, with their Keldeo check neutered for the rest of the match. Low Kick, however, consistently deals more damage to important threats in the metagame, even getting significant OHKOs/2HKOs that Low Sweep wishes it could get.

[Heather]

So, if you're giving me that list as a list of OU threats, Empoleon's inclusion might be a hint of good news. But it's one of the few relevant examples here. Trying Magnezone is chancey at best, Heatran is capable of being one shotted by several water moves, Why Ferrothorn is running Leftovers instead of Rocky Helmet as it most often does I don't know, I can't consider Kyurem valid as you've altered the variables to benefit your case between the two calcs (giving yourself an extra 12% while giving Low Sweep only 6, Mamoswine is also water weak, and same goes for Terrakion. However, there are some lighter threats to the frog as well and cutting their speed is certainly nice.

Back to the Sacing point again. Counters to things do not run solo on my teams, as my team members usually are running a royal ass load of type coverage. If one thing knows the moves to kill XZard, something else does too because chances are it takes care of some other weakness it has. I would be the guy to run a physical Empoleon and have it have EQ to cover electrics, and then be able to hit XZard hard with it. And Drill Peck for those Low Kicking ninja frogs. I know my way around Protean, because I've used it before, I know how it's exploited because people exploited it before with me. I'm no stranger.

[Emi]

Heatran isn't one-shot by Water moves. Just saying.

[Sparkbeat]

Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II

So, if you're giving me that list as a list of OU threats, Empoleon's inclusion might be a hint of good news. But it's one of the few relevant examples here. Trying Magnezone is chancey at best, Heatran is capable of being one shotted by several water moves, Why Ferrothorn is running Leftovers instead of Rocky Helmet as it most often does I don't know, I can't consider Kyurem valid as you've altered the variables to benefit your case between the two calcs (giving yourself an extra 12% while giving Low Sweep only 6, Mamoswine is also water weak, and same goes for Terrakion. However, there are some lighter threats to the frog as well and cutting their speed is certainly nice.

He's not showing a list of OU counters to Greninja. He's just showing Pokemon seen in OU, not necessarily seen a lot, but seen, that Greninja would use a Fighting coverage move against. He's just showing you that Low Kick does more damage to all of these possible threats that may have been checks to Greninja previous to it gaining this coverage move. The speed drop from Low Sweep is irrelevant when none of the Pokemon you'd use it against are faster than Greninja and only Magnezone is commonly seen with a Scarf (Maybe Terrakion and Heatran too, but it's irrelevant for the former as Low Kick OHKO's.) As for Kyurem...he didn't edit the calc at all between the two. Both Kyurem's have the same about of HP, and both Greninja have the same attack. I have no clue what you mean by he edited them. With Kyurem's weight, 120 BP is the base damage for Low Kick, while Low Sweep still sits at it's standard 65 BP (May be off on Low Sweep's base damage since I'm just trying to pull it from memory.) MMS may be a prick, but his info isn't off and he knows what he's talking about, competitive Pokemon wise at least.

And going off of what Blaze said, Greninja doesn't even run Water coverage much anymore, now that it has Gunk Shot to handle Clefable and Low Kick to hit Tyranitar and Heatran.