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Old 04-16-2011, 10:46 AM   #51
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Oh shit! That reminds me, Legend of the Strongest Man Kurosawa has been fully translated now. Gonna get on that.

As for Talon's comment about Fukumoto not being able to draw women ... to be fair, she's supposed to be ugly. Let's take a look at Fukumoto's actual attempt at drawing hot females.



Not as bad, but yeah, still brown baggers.
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:07 AM   #52
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*eyes melt*
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:26 AM   #53
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Who is this Kurosawa people keep talking about? How does he tie in to the Akagi-Kaiji universe? Is he in the '90s like Kaiji or is he in the '50s/'60s like Akagi? Why would he be seen in the bum montage with Kaiji in Kaiji S2 OP1?
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:50 AM   #54
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Kurosawa is from one of Fukumoto's other works. The story takes place in 2002. He's a lowly construction worker who becomes an unlikely unofficial guardian to a group of kids. It's one of Fukumoto's most highly acclaimed works, so anticipation of it getting a complete scan has been high.

In fact, I'll join BPK in the fun.
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:54 AM   #55
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Awww , that sounds rather sweet. So he's basically a loser as far as society is concerned, but to the kids -- and to us reading the story -- he's a genuine hero? Awww. Poor guy. Hope he gets a break.

I don't see anything on Tosho though. I see a Masturbation Master Kurosawa (though it's short one i, I doubt "Onani" could mean anything other than "Onanii" ) but that's it. Is it not readily available? Who's working on the scanlations?
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:11 PM   #56
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I found online hosting on "HomeUnix" and on "MangaFox". Choose your poison. I didn't fancy the HomeUnix one but it's the only version that allows me to see everything without scrolling.

And wow, the first chapter punched me in the gut. I'm listening to "Muv-Luv" (the song) and knowing what the song's lyrics mean, this chapter is seriously depressing and unbelievably appropriate.
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:22 PM   #57
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I just read the first two chapters (thru jpeg 0070). I don't see anything about him protecting people. When does that start? He just seems like a (rightly so) miserable man who can't stand it that he's already in his 40s and has a bleak future. No wife, no kids, no career prospects, nothing. Kind of depressing, really, reading this. But I have yet to see anything that would make me expect that this manga is more popular than Akagi, Kaiji, or Ten. So what's the deal?
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:32 PM   #58
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Uh yeah, I'm through six volumes, and stuff like that does happen, but I wouldn't say it's "about" that. OR MAYBE IT IS, later on.

It's definitely NOT more popular than Akagi and Kaiji. Acclaimed does not necessarily equate to popular.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:58 PM   #59
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Just finished Episode 03 (Nutsub).
Spoiler: show
SHIIIIIIIIIT, this is worse than when Kaiji got scammed on the Espoir by that one fugly fucker!

Really dug the antlion comparison. It's too bad that Kaiji's only just realized it this late. But hey: at least he's realized it. Now the question is, ...
Spoiler: show
How will he make his comeback? That asshole manager of his is probably going to pass on being the dealer from now on in order to prevent the group from ganging up on him. Plus it's not like Kaiji can rely on those Espoir-grade dweebs anyway.

Still trying to figure out how they're cheating. Only thought I have is that they're palming the dice for rigged ones, but that only works for as they cast them. Don't see how they could reach back into the bowl to swap rigged dice for regular ones before passing the bowl forward without getting caught.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:24 AM   #60
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Just watched The Triad's episode 2. Loved the ending of this one, where Kaiji had been playing safe up to that point, but losing that big chunk of change re-ignited the fire (or lightning storm in this case) of his gambling addiction.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:42 AM   #61
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You ain't seen nothin' yet! I'd definitely say episode 03 more exciting than 02 more exciting than 01. Excited + very curious to see what's going to happen in Episode 04.

I'll have to get Triad's episode 02 tonight.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:11 PM   #62
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Let me know how it is. If you once again report a trivial difference in quality, I'll just watch Nutbladder with you guys. And I'm really dying to watch episode 3.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:53 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
Let me know how it is. If you once again report a trivial difference in quality, I'll just watch Nutbladder with you guys. And I'm really dying to watch episode 3.
I didn't watch them back-to-back. I only watched Triad's and then quit. Here's my assessment ...

1) I really suspect Triad's old translator is no longer working on projects with them. "Triad" as it existed may have disbanded for all we know and the only people working on this from the old label are LordBrian and one or two other souls. If it is Labaamen who is translating this, then I don't know what to say.

2) On average, Triad was much more liberal with the translations this episode than were Nutbladder. They (Triad) would often translate simple sentences into compound ones or vice versa. They would often create absurd technical nicknames for things (e.g. "trips" for triples) where it really wasn't necessary and was ultimately more distracting than anything else. So I don't know how to feel about that.

3) On the other hand, Triad's translations of some of Fukumoto's more poetic moments in the script really shone through. I'll give you one specific screen-by-screen comparison (since it'd take too long to cite them all):

Triad:
Kaiji: Gambles are more like drawn-out mudslinging fights.
Fights that make you look stupid.
It has to be more on the edge!

Narrator: Bets that will make his face flush and raise his body temperature in three wins.
Conversely, bets that will make him vomit in agony in three losses.
That is the basis of the "wager" in gambling!
Nutbladder:
Kaiji: Gambling is dirtier than that.
Fool!
It doesn't work without a twinge of pain!

Narrator: If he wins three times, his face glows and his temperature rises!
But if he loses three times, his blood freezes in his veins!
That is the truth of betting!
I would have translated the last three lines differently from all three of them, but it's clear to me that both are making errors in places. Triad got the bit where Kaiji turns into ice, but Nutbladder got the first bit better:

ギャンバルとはもっと泥仕合 
(That which we call) Gambling is more mudslinging-ey.
愚かな者!
Fool(s)!
ひりつかなきゃダメだ!
It has to hurt! / If it doesn't hurt, that's no good!

Given that this is what was said, I actually prefer Nutbladder's translation. I feel like Triad was too literal on line 1, and I feel like they weren't literal enough on Lines 2 and 3. I think Nutbladder struck the perfect balance.

But then fast-forward to the fire-and-ice scene and it's clear that Nutbladder was letting the animation guide them through the translating whereas Triad was leaning more heavily on either (a) fluency (you hope!) or else (b) the dictionary. Because the dictionary pretty clearly says that the definition of gyakuryuu is:
逆流 【ぎゃくりゅう】 (n,vs,adj-no) counter-current; adverse tide; regurgitation (of blood)
A, nothing about freezing. B, there's "regurgitation" which mirrors Triad's "vomit." C, it makes sense to hear in this context that Kaiji would be vomiting up blood if he lost three big bets in a row. I regret that Triad didn't say "vomit up blood" and instead wrote "vomit in agony," but it's clear they knew what they were listening to here and Nutbladder goofed.

Personally? I'd say go ahead and watch Nutbladder, because it's not like Triad's doing a bang-up job themselves with this release sadly. Not to mention their slow pace and passive abuse towards their fans, but they're not even nailing everything I hear. They get most of it. Their errors are less embarrassing than Nutbladder's. But ultimately this is not the TL skill I remember from Kaiji S1, so like I've said already, I'll be very shocked if they claim that they've got the same TL working for them now as they did back in the day. So surprised I'd question if they might not be lying just to save face.
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:22 AM   #64
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I'll use Nutbladder then. I really can't hold off on watching this badass shit the second it comes out. Maybe Triad really is using a different translator. I still can't see any names during the credits ... maybe they have something to hide?!

Damn shame if that's true. Without Triad's interpretation of the shows, we would have never had such classic lines as, "You're a retard, Yagi-san" and Kaiji's ballad of fucks at the end of the Espoir arc. After all, "shit" would have been more literal, but would not have accurately portrayed how very pissed off he was!

Also, I once downloaded the KAA version of Air for a re watch, because I was interested in the high video quality. I had to stop after one episode though, because Triad's translation made Misuzu sound so much more pitiful, which is important for building up that pathos (fancy words make me look smart)!
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:38 AM   #65
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Interesting observation. I think it is true that the choice of words a translator uses really do subtly influence our perception of characters. When one speaks the language fluently, one gets to decide for himself how to interpret a person's words. (And even then, there's ambiguity in places! ) But when one can't speak the language, one is really at the mercy of the translators. Their interpretations of what has been said will further affect his interpretation of what has been said. (As someone who's in between these two zones, I find myself in the uncomfortable position of needing crutches but also being aware of the flaws in all the various sets of crutches on the market.)

A good example can be found in the dollar amounts that have been being discussed in episodes 02 and 03. Often, Ohtsuki will say "roku" (6) or "kyuu" (9) when referring to the 60,000 perica he's lent Kaiji or to Kaiji's 90,000 perica monthly income. I actually preferred Nutbladder's not-so-literal translation where they wrote out 60,000 and 90,000 in those places because I am a follow-the-numbers kind of guy and I can't stand it when people abbreviate figures like that. (Don't say fifty thou! Say fifty thousand! But even worse is something like this, where if you say '3' I'm going to think you really mean 3 and not 30,000!) But the thing is, it really is how Ohtsuki talked: and Triad preserved that. This alone can influence how you see Ohtsuki given the mask he wears. If you watch it with Nutbladder and don't see him using any contractions or abbreviations, then you don't think that he speaks like a low-class uneducated goon. You think he has some class, some education to him. He doesn't say "fiddy cent" but "fifty cent." If you watch it with Triad, however, you get the opposite impression: that Ohtsuki is nothing more than a higher-ranking loser, much like the other losers here, and that the only difference between them and him is probably that he's less kind, he's maybe a little smarter (not necessarily by much though), and that he probably had a little bit of luck.

Same thing with the trips talk. Ohtsuki uses a term I'm not familiar with, one that is probably gambling slang for "triples." So Triad opted to translate this as "trips." I can't fucking stand that. Even if it's what he said , I can't fucking stand it. So I'll go with Nutbladder's "triples" in a situation like this.

Anyway, thist post makes it sound like I'm saying Triad is always the one who does better. I haven't found that to be the case, but the examples I'm citing here were all ones where Triad's translation happened to be closer to the truth than Nutbladder's. Still, there are plenty of examples that -- if I were home right now and could pull up the files -- I could point out where Triad's translation is none too pretty. Which is a shame. Like I say: either Labaamen is gone or else he's gotten damn rusty. And like you, I'm thinking the lack of credits in the opening is suspicious and thus I'm more inclined to go with the former theory over the latter.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:01 PM   #66
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WHY DOES THIS BULLSHIT ALWAYS HAPPEN TO ME indeed!

By the way, I like the opening song to season 2, even though it disturbingly reminds me of that infamous crabcore song, Stick Stickly. What is crabcore you ask?

"Crabcore is a contemporary offshoot from the emocore/screamo sub-genre of hard rock music. Unlike almost all other genres and sub-genres of music, crabcore is defined not by aural motifs, tones, lyrical content, or specific instrument ensembles; but rather by crab-like physical gesticulations and contortions of the arms and legs of individual band members during live performances of their music."
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:01 PM   #67
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What is with the way those guys stand!? And those neck movements! Ouch!

So now that you've caught up on Kaiji, you get to wait, like, only two or three more days until the next release. (Last Nutbladder release was 4/21, so the next could be as soon as today.) Lucky! But the honeymoon ends there, I wager, as Episode 04 will almost surely be as cliffhanger-ey as Episode 03 was, leaving us wanting more for a solid week.

Any thoughts as to how Ohtsuki and his goons may be cheating?
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:37 PM   #68
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I actually have no idea how you're supposed to cheat in a game where you throw god damn dice into a bowl. Maybe Ohtsuki was thrown in prison, and the only thing he had in his cell to entertain himself was some dice, and for 10 long years he trained himself every hour of every day to do a perfect dice throw.

Although I guess if he did that, he wouldn't be in an underground labour camp, but would be owning up craps tables and seedy, Yakuza sponsored Monopoly games.
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:40 PM   #69
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I still think the way the dice roll is predetermined, and the managers memorized the patterns.
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:56 PM   #70
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EDIT: No spoilers. Used spoiler tags to condense arguments in #1, #2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by big bad birtha View Post
I still think the way the dice roll is predetermined, and the managers memorized the patterns.
Problem #1: if that were true, then Kaiji would have absolutely no chance of winning.
Spoiler: show
Ohtsuki decided who would deal first (him), Ohtsuki may or may not have decided where Kaiji sat (by instructing the others as to where to sit), Ohtsuki may or may not have decided the number n of players allowed to join the circle, etc. When nothing is in Kaiji's control, the game is lost. For comparison, in E-Card the game was rigged but, even without resorting to the drastic measures he did, Kaiji could have won. Indeed, did win. There was a way to turn the game against Tonegawa. That wouldn't hold for a dice game.


Problem #2: if the dice roll in a certain pattern, they do so with respect to an equivalent delivery into the bowl. However, Ohtsuki cannot anticipate how Kaiji or the others will deliver the dice into the bowls.
Spoiler: show
That is to say, if the pattern would be:

Roll 1: four, three, six
Roll 2: two, five, five
Roll 3: one, three, six
Roll 4: one, five, two
Roll 5: one, one, six
Roll 6: two, four, three

It would only be that pattern assuming the dice were delivered the same way into the bowl each time. But what if one guy gently drops them while another guy swirls them in? It'd mess things up, wouldn't it?


Problem #3: Ohtsuki cannot anticipate when or how many times any particular player will pass. If the point of the game was to break Kaiji, and if the point of having rigged dice is to have Kaiji roll poor rolls while Ohtsuki rolls good rolls, then what would be the point of allowing Kaiji and the others to pass on being the dealer? It would be suspicious if everybody passed after Kaiji declared "Pass" just so that they could ensure he was the next one to roll the dice.

Problem #4: how would the dice be rigged to roll in a fixed pattern anyway? ^^; Weighting the dice wouldn't do it: they'd roll the same way each time. Microchips and micro-hydraulic pistons? Unlikely. So then how? This theory raises more questions then it answers.

You could be right, but there are a whole lot of problems your theory'd need to address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
I actually have no idea how you're supposed to cheat in a game where you throw god damn dice into a bowl.
If I could "Like" this webforum-wise, I would.

Last edited by Talon87; 04-28-2011 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:40 PM   #71
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It's not a theory. It's a guess. That's the best I could think of considering their reaction to the new guy taking notes on the rolls.

Though, I can somewhat address the problems in my own halfass thinking.

#1: He indeed can. If there is a pattern, then he can learn the pattern from the guy's notes. If he does that and takes advantage of the rolls, he has a chance of winning.

#2: I just assumed rigged dice come out the same no matter which way they're rolled.

#3: Since Kaiji is mostly psychological, I'm guessing the managers simply knew how Kaiji would handle the game. It's a bother explaining in examples. Though, the managers seem to know how a person's mind works pretty well, so it's not unbelievable that they'd know how Kaiji would act in the game.

#4: I'll leave explaining that up to the writers on the off chance that I'm right. I have no clue myself.

Once again, this is a halfass guess. It's the first thing that came to mind after the secondary manager guy flipped out about the new guy taking notes.
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:47 PM   #72
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#1: Maybe. But then Ohtsuki can counter. Then again, if it becomes obvious to Kaiji that Ohtsuki is cheating, then I have to wonder why he wouldn't tell the others and have them all gang up on Ohtsuki. And if Ohtsuki refused to finish the game or something, they could report him to the guy above Ohtsuki (their supervisor's supervisor, in effect) and get his ass canned. I dunno. You may have a point here.

#2: This is also possible. But it leads us back to #4.

#3: Ehh, this one I don't buy.

#4: Sure. I'm in the exact same boat.

I think we all agree that the guy getting upset about the small fry taking notes was a major, caveman-club-over-the-head clue that the game is rigged. That's not the question. The question is not whether or not the game is rigged, but how it's rigged. And I've got no more clue than Mcsweeney does. Kudos to you for voicing a theory, but still.
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:50 PM   #73
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Now that I think about it, weighted dice is a possibility. Ohtsuki would have a special 4, 5, and 6 dice in his pocket, which he would switch in when it's his turn to roll. If you watched Akagi, you'd know that this sleight of hand stuff was a really common cheating technique.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:08 PM   #74
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Haven't seen the episode(s) yet, but a technique for a perfect dice roll exists in Japanese gambling lore. You can control the number of times the dice rotate before they land, so if you know what the dice were when you're about to throw them, you can dictate what faces you want.

I saw this in Tetsuya.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:08 PM   #75
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Mcsweeney, I've posted about it already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Still trying to figure out how they're cheating. Only thought I have is that they're palming the dice for rigged ones, but that only works for as they cast them. Don't see how they could reach back into the bowl to swap rigged dice for regular ones before passing the bowl forward without getting caught.
Swapping reals out for fakes is easy. Swapping the reals back in and taking the fakes out seems like it'd be much, much harder. Unless ... *eureka moment*! :O

What if this is why Ohtsuki has to have goons!?
No idea if he strictly needs the guy to his left, but the guy to his right would be the one who swaps real dice back in! So here's what happens ...

1. Ohtsuki makes to receive the bowl. As he does ...
2. Sleight-of-hand, he scoops up the real dice and slips in the fake dice. He palms the real dice ...
3. Before pocketing them as he puts the bowl down on the ground.
4. After he's done rolling with the fake dice, he passes the bowl to his lackey on his right.
5. This guy's the one who then rinses and repeats what his master did, only he's swapping out the fake dice for some real dice. Sucks to be him that he's about to lose, but his boss will recompense him for it later, I'm sure.

Now there's a small problem: the goon on the right has the fake dice now. How are they supposed to get back to Ohtsuki? Only reasonable answer I can think of (though again it's one I'd think Kaiji and the others could detect) would be the men passing the dice back and forth between themselves when it's not their turn to deal: specifically, passing them back and forth when someone else is passing the bowl and all eyes are upon it (as is human nature).

Hmm ... maybe this is it.
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