Generation 5 incoming?! You bet! Black & White coming at ya!

[Treepandaone]

But the whole point of BL is that it's a banlist for pokemon too powerfull than UU. This whole 'series of tests' is done by who uses what and if something NEEDS one specific counter then it gets bumped up to BL rather than deciding on its power and usability and then deciding what tier it's in.

[Kindrindra]

^Wrong.
They do a series of test by seeing how well the pokemon does when pitted against other pokemon.


PS: Alakazam is raped by priority moves.

[Treepandaone]

So is Breloom, but off the top of my head, very few UUs have worthwhile priority.

[Rangeet]

Are you kidding me? UU is the like king of priority. Sucker Punch(which rapes Alakazam more) is especially prevalent.

[Kindrindra]

Also, if Alakazam was let into OU...
You do realize the No. 1 currently most used pokemon in the metagame is scizor, the bearer of the dreaded technician+STAB Bullet Punch?

[Treepandaone]

You guys are idiots. I've been saying for the past couple of hours that Alakazam should be BL but all you can do is counter it being OU.

[Rangeet]

Explain how exactly Alakazam overcentralizes UU.

[Treepandaone]

What can switch in on it?

Absol - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Aggron - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Altaria - OHKO (Hidden Power Ice)
Ambipom - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Arcanine (Bulky) - 2HKOd (Psychic) 30 odd % chance of OHKO with rocks
Azumarril - OHKO (Hidden Power Electric)
Blastoise - 2HKO (Hidden Power Electric) Can't hit back
Blaziken - OHKO (Psychic)
Chansey - 2HKO (Focus Blast) Can't hit back
Claydol - 2HKO (Signal Beam) Can't hit back
Clefable - Most sets are OHKO (Focus Blast) Can't hit back
Cloyster - 2HKO (Hidden Power Electric) Can't hit back
Cresselia - 2/3HKO (Signal Beam) Needs luck to survive second hit.
Donphan - OHKO (Psychic)
Drapion Attacking - OHKO with rocks (Focus Blast)
Drapion Special Defense - 2HKO (Focus Blast) Can't hit back
Drifblim - 2HKO (Psychic) Can't hit back
Dugtrio - OHKO (Psychic)
Feraligatr - 2HKO (Hidden Power Electric) Can't hit back
Frosslass - OHKO (Psychic)
Harriyama tank - OHKO (Psychic)
Hitmonchan - OHKO (Psychic)
Hitmonlee - OHKO (Psychic)
Hitmontop - OHKO (Psychic)
Kabutops Attacking - OHKO (Psychic)
Kabutops Support - 2HKO (Psychic) Can't hit back
Lanturn Tank - 2HKO with rocks (Psychic) Can't hit back
Lanturn Attacking - OHKO (Psychic)
Leafeon - OHKO (Psychic)
Ludicolo - 2HKO (Psychic) Can't hit back
Ludicolo Stall - 2HKO with rock
Mespirit antisweeper - 3HKO (Signal Beam) 1st Counter
Mespirit - 2HKO (Signal Beam) Can't hit back
Milotic - 3HKO (Hidden Power Electric) 2nd Counter
Mismagius - 2HKO (Psychic) Can't hit back
Moltres - 2HKO and OHKO with rocks (Psychic) Can't hit back
Nidoking - OHKO
Nidoqueen - OHKO
Omastar attacker - OHKO (Psychic)
Omastar utility - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Poliwrath - OHKO (Psychic)
Porygon-Z - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Qwilfish - OHKO
Raikou - 2HKO (Psychic) Can't hit back
Regirock - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Registeel - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Rhyperior Attacking - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Rhyperior Special Wall - 2HKO (Focus Blast) Can't hit back
Rotom Attack - OHKO (Psychic)
Rotom Screen / Rest - 2HKO (Psychic) Can't hit back
Sceptile - OHKO (Signal Beam)
Scyther - 2HKO and OHKO with rocks (Psychic) Can't hit back (Quick Attack doing 60% max)
Slowbro - 2HKO and OHKO with rocks (Signal Beam) Can't hit back
Spiritomb - 3HKO 3rd Counter
Steelix - OHKO (Focus Blast)
Swellow - OHKO (Psychic)
Tangrowth - 2HKO and OHKO with rocks (Psychic) Can't hit back
Torterra - 2HKO (Psychic) Can't hit back
Toxicroak - OHKO (Psychic)
Umbreon - 2HKO (Focus Blast) Can't hit back
Uxie - 2HKO (Signal Beam) Can't hit back
Venasaur - OHKO (Psychic)
Weezing - OHKO (Psychic)

To me, only having three true counters in the entire UU metagame suggests overcentralization. Any set with Signal Beam, Psychic or Focus Blast is the specs set while any others is the scarf. Any changes in 1HKO to 2HKO between defending sets has been listed though most are the same.

One of the would-be-counters, Cress, has 47% damage done to it by minimum damage from a Signal beam. As this would require a minimum and then anything but maximum to kill it I've not listed it as a counter, because counting on luck isn't very good. Sure, Cress can moonlight the damage away but unless Alakazam gets less than 50% for one and 50% for the other, it'll be too slow and not a counter.

Notes:
'Can't hit back' indicates that it's either too slow and doesn't have priority or cannot kill Alakazam before it gets killed itself, thus, not making it a counter.
'and OHKO with rocks' doesn't always guarantee the 2HKO. Most are 98.2% but some are rough estimates taking type into account. I wont do all the calcs.

[Kindrindra]

And you are assuming that someone can predict that easily what will be swapped in?
And let us not forget the prospect of revenge killing.

Alakazam can be devastated by simply luring it into using psychic, switching to Absol, and Sucker Punch was all she wrote.

Though, I agree that Alakazam could be moved up into BL, but seeing as there is no BL teir battles, he would only be used in OU, which would defeat the whole purpose.

Of course, seeing as a new gen is right around the corner, he may get some new attacks which immediately bump him up to BL, or maybe even OU.

[ZoraJolteon]

I think the 5th gen should have a Badger based on the Badger Mothers from Redwall. Discuss.

[Kindrindra]

Pokemon never has pokemon based on other series, unless they are impossibly old, so no.

[Treepandaone]

Originally Posted by Kindrindra

And you are assuming that someone can predict that easily what will be swapped in?
And let us not forget the prospect of revenge killing.

Alakazam can be devastated by simply luring it into using psychic, switching to Absol, and Sucker Punch was all she wrote.

Though, I agree that Alakazam could be moved up into BL, but seeing as there is no BL teir battles, he would only be used in OU, which would defeat the whole purpose.

You don't realize what a counter is do you? Nor do you know what the BL tier is.

A counter is something that can switch in a force the attacker to switch out. Only three pokemon can do that and so therefore it's overcentralization to the UU tier.

BL is a banlist to the UU tier. It is not a tier itself and it doesn't matter that the pokemon don't get used in OU, the whole reason for it is that the pokemon is too powerfull for UU and not powerfull enough for OU.

Revenge killing is also overcentralization.

[Kindrindra]

Counter: You don't need a counter if you can trick the opponent to give you a free swap in. And let us not forget the amazing item called the Focus Sash.

BL: THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. L2R.

Revenge killing: I know that. Notice, however, that I mentioned other methods than revenge killing. Pretty much any pokemon with sucker punch who is either A) A Dark-type or B) capable or holding a focus sash rapes alakazam. And seeing as Sucker Punch is actually Ambush in japanese, loads of pokemon can learn it.

[Treepandaone]

You can't count focus sash in counters. There's a thing called Stealth Rock.

[ZoraJolteon]

I THINK EVERY POKÉMON WITHOUT A GIMMICK LIKE SMEARGLE'S OR SHEDINJAS SHOULD HAVE ITS BASE STAT TOTAL BUFFED TO AT LEAST 500. DISCUSS.

[Kindrindra]

Ah, true, Entry Hazards could wreak that way. But anticipating psychic then switching to a dark-type works. Or you could just rape him with a Choice Scarf.

[Hanatori]

Yes! Pump up Parasect's defenses by 45 and 50, respectively, so it only dies twice over to a Granbull's Fire Fang and three times over to a Magcargo's Lava Plume.

[ZoraJolteon]

Actually it would survive a Granbull's Life Orbed Fire Fang if you put EVs in HP and Defense.

[Kindrindra]

Or they could just give Parasect an evolution.

[ZoraJolteon]

But that doesn't help shitty stage 2 Pokémon, like Dustox.

[Loki]

You're forgetting some essential things. You can't perfectly predict a switch-in. Alakazam is usually quite focused on using Choice items for extra potency. This means if you see a Psychic, you can easily move in a Houndoom and Pursuit for the kill. And even if you can't switch in a Pokemon, you can easily Revenge kill Alakazam, especially Dugtrio with Sucker Punch and possibly Choice Scarf Night Slash.

There are plenty of Pokemon in the game too powerful for UU and too weak for OU.

[Emp]

HEY GUYS! CENTRALISATION ISN'T DETERMINED BY COUNTERS!

It's determined by their usage, and there where 17 Pokemon used more often than Alakazam last month lol. Why are you drudging up such a bad arguement? The people at smogon (who put a lot more thought into the metagame than you or me) aren't even considering Zam as a suspect. Please change the subject, Alakazam is fine where it is, and the majority of those Pokemon you listed could switch in on a move they resist and take it out. If you think he needs moving to BL, try using him more often.

[Treepandaone]

Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite

HEY GUYS! CENTRALISATION ISN'T DETERMINED BY COUNTERS!

(Yes they are actually)

Smogon use usage statistics to determine a part of their criteria however all others don't use usage.

Originally Posted by Loki

There are plenty of Pokemon in the game too powerful for UU and too weak for OU.

That's why we're discussing the cons of using usage as a factor. There are some pokemon too powerful for UU and that's why there is a BL tier.

[Kindrindra]

Well if, as long as Porygon-Z and Cresselia (the ulimate sp sweeper and ulitimate tanks of the UU metagame, respectively) are UU, I don`t see Alakazam getting moved to BL.

[Jerichi]

Stop spamming up this thread and spam up this one instead.

I want a Farfetch'd evolution.