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Old 03-08-2013, 01:20 PM   #51
Mercutio
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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Chikorita was well-written period, I don't know what you're talking about. I loved her in 2000, most fans loved her in 2000, I love her still in 2013, and most fans consider her the best developed Johtomon to this day. Hindsight has got nothing to do with it. Maybe for you it does, but that makes you weird. You weirdo.
In 2000 I was 10,go figure. Chikorita was not appealing to me in the slightest, while Totodile (who is just awful) did.
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As for Oshawott, Snivy, Krookodile, and Emolga ... "there's no accounting for taste." Not really sure how you can rationalize hating the four single most developed Pokémon with unique personalities that pass the RedLetterMedia test, but that's life for you. Opinions: people have 'em.
Developed does not equal good. I mostly agree that this team is the most developed of all, but this does not equal quality. Oshawott is a mediocre rehash of previous main character pokémon. Krookodile is kind of the same, but in this case of improved quality and a combination of previous raits as opposed to just being a carbon copy. Emolga is good now that I think about it.

Snivy is as wasted as Brock's Mudkip. I think that it would have been better in every way possible if Ash had not captured Snivy and it had ben left as a rival pokémon. They set her up as this badass powerhouse and then did nothing with her. No real progression, not even new moves learned (though, admittedly, Snivy as a pokémon is pretty crap).
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:00 PM   #52
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I had been answering Amras's post but I lost it due to a power failure. Allow me to address Mercutio's easier-to-address post first and then I'll cycle back around to yours, Amras.

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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
Developed does not equal good. I mostly agree that this team is the most developed of all, but this does not equal quality. Oshawott is a mediocre rehash of previous main character pokémon. Krookodile is kind of the same, but in this case of improved quality and a combination of previous raits as opposed to just being a carbon copy. Emolga is good now that I think about it.

Snivy is as wasted as Brock's Mudkip. I think that it would have been better in every way possible if Ash had not captured Snivy and it had ben left as a rival pokémon. They set her up as this badass powerhouse and then did nothing with her. No real progression, not even new moves learned (though, admittedly, Snivy as a pokémon is pretty crap).
First ... "developed does not equal good," you say. True. But I would say that developed, whether well or poorly, still beats not developed at all. If you consider Ash's Unova team, here's who we have currently:
  • The Developeds:
    • Pikachu
    • Oshawott
    • Snivy
    • Krookodile
  • The Sorta Developeds:
    • Pignite (generic crybaby as a Tepig and pretty much forgotten as a Pignite outside of the occasional formal battle)
    • Scraggy (generic infant/baby of the team)
  • The Not Very Developed At Alls:
    • Unfezant
    • Leavanny
    • Palpitoad
    • Boldore
Ten Pokémon. Now, you're free to say that "I don't care for Oshawott" or "I think Snivy is shit" or whatever, that's fine, there's no real accounting for tastes. But what you can't do is sit there and tell me "I like Pokémon that are well-developed. And Unfezant/Leavanny/Palpitoad/Boldore! Now that's a well-developed Pokémon! " They aren't well-developed Pokémon: they aren't any developed Pokémon! These guys are the most pitiful dead weight (as far as character development goes, not as far as utility in battles goes) characters I have seen in Pokémon since Krabby, Muk, and Tauros way back when in Kanto. That's pretty much what they are. Unova Krabby. Unova Muk. Completely devoid of any character depth and only brought forward when needed for a battle or (in Leavanny's case) one "we feel really bad for this character " character development episode that very, very quickly quits even being about Leavanny and is more about a colony of Durant. Whether you feel like the others' developments are weak or not, and whether you feel like they're unoriginal or not, at least they have 'em. At least Snivy has some development.

Second ... I wouldn't agree with you that Oshawott's development is either poor or derivative. Who would you point to and say it's derivative of? As far as a marketing role goes, Oshawott is this series' Piplup (they're both Water starters, they're both being kept unevolved to appeal to children, they both feature heavily in their respective series), but even there the comparisons start to fall flat. They're nothing alike in personality. Piplup's more accurate series role analog would be Axew, as he's the traveling partner's always-out-of-its-ball companion, while Oshawott's more accurate series role analog would be Charizard (the second most popular Pokémon of Ash's right after Pikachu; kept in his Pokéball but frequently summoned). So my point is, he's not really a Piplup clone. Who else then might you be saying he's derivative of? Totodile, perhaps? They're both sort of silly, fun-loving Water types? Yeaaaaah ... but that's pretty much all of Ash's Water starters. That was the case with Squirtle (prankster of the group, loved to have fun), that was the case with Totodile (lobotomized Squirtle), and that's sort of the case with Oshawott (not a prankster or anything but, like his cousins, he's fun-loving, energetic, spry).

Really though, I just don't agree with you that Oshawott is poorly developed or a clone of past things, simply because we can point to all the elements of his fleshed-out personality and see that they match none of the other Pokémon Ash has ever had by 50%, 60%, let alone by 90%, 100%. He's ...
  • paradoxically overly confident in his ability to win yet easily panics / fears he will lose when confronting certain opponents. Most of Ash's Pokémon historically haven't displayed this sort of confidence+cowardice hybridization. They're usually either overly confident to the max (like Charizard) or they're overly cowardly (like Cyndaquil or Tepig). Some examples for Oshawott include when he's confronting someone using an Electric or Grass-type attack or when he's facing the evolved forms of his own evolutionary line. As Bulbapedia puts it, "Oshawott loves to battle, but only against opponents Oshawott thinks he can win against."
  • very, very eager to prove himself. Comparable with Charizard, Chikorita, a couple of others.
  • one of only very few Pokémon to frequently release himself from his own Pokéball. (Misty's Psyduck, Jessie's Wobbuffet)
  • is afraid to open his eyes under water (unique quirk; later played upon to develop his mastering Aqua Jet, culminating in no longer being afraid to open his eyes underwater)
  • acts first, asks questions later never (like when he eats the Trubbish's food and doesn't even consider that the food might've belonged to someone else)
  • a bit of a glutton, going along with the above anecdote. (It's come up quite a lot. The 'mon enjoys his food!)
  • lookin' for love (develops a crush on quite a few Pokémon over the series, including that one Purrloin and of course Meloetta)
  • needs his security blanket (his scallsword; a trait shared by fellow Gen 5'er Krookodile but by pretty much no one else I can think of)
  • seeks Ash's praise but doesn't seem to live for it (contrast: Chikorita)
I could keep going, but I think this already establishes two things fairly clearly. The first is, he's developed. This framework is good enough for any author to work with and develop a character around. If I asked you to sum up Dumas' Porthos for me, you'd probably only be able to give me a list about as detailed as this. ("Loves to hear himself talk," "loves to eat", "loud, boisterous", "a bit of a rascal", etc.) But everyone loves Porthos. Or if I asked you to sum up Crichton's Dr. Alan Grant. Could you really list off twice as many unique personality traits for him as you could for Oshawott? I kind of doubt it. Don't let that stop you from trying, but my point is, Oshawott is adequately developed. He may not be Edmond Dantes or Liu Bei, but neither is he Bob the Builder nor Dalek #3733. The second point that this list illustrates is, Oshawott is not merely a Charizard clone, or a Chikorita clone, or a Piplup clone, or an anybody clone. There really isn't any one Pokémon on Ash's team that I can recall who matches Oshawott with near 1:1 precision. He may well be an amalgam of various character traits seen over the years in dozens of other Pokémon, but that's sort of unavoidable when you've created as many Pokémon as the anime's writers have at this point.

I dunno. I enjoy him. Really hated him for his design when he was first unveiled in CoroCoro Magazine, but thanks to the anime, I've really quite come to like him, and I don't even really hate the design that much anymore. (Objectively I still think it's poor, but subjectively I've come to like it. The power of positive association with a beloved character, I guess.)
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:26 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Amras.MG View Post
Talon, why do you think they nerfed Ash even more in Unova, in general?

Does that need to be spoilered? /fuckifIknow
Why do they nerf Ash:
Because Pokémon is a kids show? Because it's in the hands of people who are more interested in the perpetuity of the franchise rather than creating an enduring piece of art with a definite beginning, middle, and end? Pokémon is not Avatar: the Last Airbender (though, as I've soapboxed before and much to my personal chagrin, it could be! / it could have been!). There's no real sense of risk here. There's no real sense of danger, no threat of permanent loss. When people do leave "for good," they don't: they just "go somewhere else in the world", very much happy to do so, very much still alive and well. Butterfree, Primeape, Tracey, Brock, Misty, Oak'd Pokémon, on and on we can go. Ash never ages. There's no mortal peril for him. Even when he dies, he comes back to life just fine. Numerous times. Numerous, numerous times. So if you're writing a series like this, where the primary goal is being a mouthpiece for a tireless video game franchise and the usual threats of mortality or narrow windows of time in which one's goals can be achieved are all but erased, what reason do you even have to seriously advance the character, to bring your franchise one step closer to its logical end? You don't.

Why do they nerf Ash even more in Unova:
The Unova nerf may be one of the worst nerfs he's ever had in comparative terms*, but in absolute terms, they're all pretty much on the same scale. If we start listing off the problems with Unova Ash and ShoPro's mashing of the Reset Button -- he dropped off everybody but Pikachu, he forgot how to battle properly and lost to a scrub who just got their starter, he has to re-learn how to properly battle and only by the end of the series is he battling well by fan standards -- these are all problems you find in the other series too. Johto? Loses to Casey and her scrub Chikorita, has trouble with many of the gym leaders despite being one of sixteen Indigo League finalists and the Orange Islands champion, the great gym battles don't come along until the very end with Pryce and Clair. Sinnoh? Loses to Paul and his Elekid -- a pre-evo, for God's sake --, etc.

* If anything, I feel like Unova at least was somewhat better than average, but then again, I was just coming off of Johto around the same time, so that may have had something to do with it. I dunno. You can point at numbers and say "OMG HOW COME ASH ISN'T DOING AS WELL AS BEFORE!?" but I feel like he's doing about as well as ever. Which is frustrating, of course, in that we'd like to see some growth between regions, but it also stands as evidence against your line of reasoning that Unova has seen Ash regress more than usual.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:25 PM   #54
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I really just think that Oshawott is a lame version of Piplup. There's probably no way of you convincing me otherwise. I'm not saying that he's underdeveloped, he isn't. But nothing in him is new at all.

And I disagree with the assumption that some development is inherently better than no development.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:57 AM   #55
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We have our answer to the filler

Spoiler: show
ARE YOU READY FOR ORANGE ISLANDS 2: UNOVA EDITION

FUCK YES YOU ARE

OH WAIT IT'S JUST A BUNCH OF "SPECIAL" ISLANDS WITH "SPECIAL" POKEMON AND OSHAWOTT GETS HIS VERY OWN PIKACHU'S GOODBYE EPISODE


Would post full spoiler translation, but phone / lazy
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:24 AM   #56
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Well I sure didn't mean to read that. But since I did, I may as well reply. But first: some comments about the latest episodes.

Sadly, it looks like the writers burned themselves out on writing non-stop non-fillers. Every other episode of the latest batch (1, 3, and 5) has been a filler, and the remaining episodes have only not been filler because they've had to do with {that character}. Stupid Team Rocket is back, having made appearances in at least three episodes (1, 2, 5) where they arrive with their Meowth hot air balloon (thankfully missing all series long until now) and discuss their plans to capture Ash's Pikachu. The motto is back, the blasting off is back, and finally with the fifth episode of this new arc even the 嫌な感じ! / "Looks like Team Rocket's blasting off again!" is back. -_-; Seriously, we are this close to seeing Comic Relief Team Rocket back in full force, and it pisses me off. Everyone was thrilled by your decision to inject Serious Steroids into their arms and make them show up only once every six or seven episodes. Why the sudden change of heart?

So on to Deoxys's news ...

Spoiler: show
I'm not surprised. Pretty much everyone was fearing a filler season that extended Ash's stay in Unova and it looks like that's exactly what we're going to get. I doubt it'll have a league like the Orange Islands did though, simply because we've only got roughly 26 weeks between when this season starts and when Gen 6 comes out in mid-October. They could do an Orange Islands-style league, with four episodes devoted to four Gym Leader battles and two episodes devoted to the battle against the reigning Champion, the rest all being able to be filler, but I dunno. Just strikes me as kind of unlikely. Why cut the N arc so short only to then write a meaty, non-fillery arc right after it? You wouldn't. The only reason to cut the N arc short is "We don't have enough ideas to non-filler-ly detail Ash and N's fight against the Plasmas until October." Even though they totally should and the video games've already done the bulk of that work for them. No, I'm afraid that if they're cutting the N arc so short, it's because they've run out of creative gas -- and if they've run out of creative gas, that means the we may as well be calling the Decolora Islands the Filler Islands.

If Ash releases Oshawott, that would be the worst. It would be like releasing any of Bulbasaur, Squirtle, or Charizard in Gen 1 or Chikorita in Gen 2. I think you're probably right that this will be a Pikachu's Goodbye episode and that in the end Oshawott will remain with Ash.

Clicked the news story to get the full scoop on that ... and got a faceful of an even bigger spoiler. -_-;

Spoiler: show
Looks like Jirachi will be making an appearance, its first on TV. Interesting.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:59 AM   #57
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A certain other post elsewhere on the forum made me google something and this was the result that surprisingly returned.

Potential big spoilers with this one, be warned:

Spoiler: show


So here we see the island of Oshawott, a "detective" episode, Ash vs. Iris, BUTTERFREE RETURNS? (remember, he went to go mate on a far away island, so this might be it!), and goodbye to Iris and Cilan? AND CLAIRE? WITHA SHINY DRUDDIGON? THE FUCK?
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:27 AM   #58
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Everything in that spoiler makes me happy inside.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:40 PM   #59
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So, I'm watching the eighth episode of the latest mini-season (BW116 according to Bulbapedia), and Ash busts out his PokéDex to look up ... a Charmander. And here I thought Roxie's Koffing was bad ...

God I want a rebooted anime for teens and young adults. -_-;
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:42 PM   #60
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He was probably just adding it to his National Dex. Also younger kids might not know what Charmander is.

But yeah, we need a reboot. It's time to put this one to rest and finish it up nicely.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:51 PM   #61
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Ha, good luck with that.

It's times like this I wish I could draw or I'd make some kind of comic.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:53 PM   #62
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THIS IS SO FUCKING NUTS!

(spoiler for BW116)
Spoiler: show
They reanimated all of Charmander's, Charmeleon's, and Charizard's most famous scenes from Kanto! :O We got Damien reanimated, we got Primeape reanimated, we got Koga reanimated, we got Aerodactyl reanimated, we got Sparky reanimated ... SO CLOSE, SHOPRO! So fucking close! Let's just go back and start all over!
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:55 PM   #63
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lol Talon

Spoiler: show
Yeah I liked that. The fact that they actually acknowledged Primeape gave me hope that they might see him come back like Butterfree is allegedly going to.
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:29 PM   #64
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ARGH, this episode was so good right up until the very end!

BW116
Spoiler: show
First off, N interrupting the match. Goddammit! >_< I hate when that happens! Like with Ash and Misty at Cerulean City! Charizard totally had that fight too.

Second, when they made fun of Iris for thinking Charizard was a Dragon-type Pokémon. Given how the anime writing staff works closely with / gets instructions from GameFreak years in advance (or so I'm told), this basically amounts to a soft spoiler that Gen 6 won't be the generation to finally give me Fire/Dragon Charizard. Goddammit. -_-; Obviously if it were going to be, they wouldn't have made Ash say something as declarative as "Charizard isn't a Dragon-type, even if he looks it" only to then have his words be enshrined in the halls of Anime Dated Claims along with all the moves affected by the Physical/Special split or all the done-evolving Pokémon who later got new evos. Son of a bitch, I want my retconned Charizard and I want it now.

Aside from those two complaints, this was a fun episode.
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:59 PM   #65
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Here's a hi-res copy of the poster for the next story arc in the BW anime. Warning: contains spoilers for (I dare say) over half of the episodes that'll air!

Spoiler: show

It looks pretty filler-tastic. Thinking I might just sit it out and wait until August or September before watching. "The best laid plans of mice and men," as they say ... but still. Can't say I'm excited for a glut of fillers. I guess the one saving grace is the fan service in such things as:

Spoiler: show
Ash running into his old Butterfree and Ash running into Clair.

Definitely feels like a lame duck season though. Even the excitement that would've ordinarily been there for the current story arc is largely absent, our excitement instead focused on the upcoming sixth generation.

Here's a video sneak peek on YouTube.
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:51 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
THIS IS SO FUCKING NUTS!

(spoiler for BW116)
Spoiler: show
They reanimated all of Charmander's, Charmeleon's, and Charizard's most famous scenes from Kanto! :O We got Damien reanimated, we got Primeape reanimated, we got Koga reanimated, we got Aerodactyl reanimated, we got Sparky reanimated ... SO CLOSE, SHOPRO! So fucking close! Let's just go back and start all over!
So I just watched this episode
Spoiler: show
and it was just filled with nostalgia. I absolutely loved it. I wish for a return to Pokemon's glory days as an anime.... Something I think could only be done with a reboot and limited seasons.... sigh.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:47 AM   #67
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Spoiler: show
Maybe FUNi doing an uncut redub of Pokemon like they did with One Piece and DBZKai? That'd be fun.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:03 PM   #68
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Haven't posted here in a while. Will just say that I've watched up through Episode 03 of the Decolora Adventures arc. It's very, very Johto filler-esque, but honestly it hasn't been too awful. Episode 02 was like a standard Johto filler (so ... epically forgettable ^^; ) but Episodes 01 and 03 were surprisingly fun if cliché. Well, as fun as a filler episode can get, anyway. They're pretty damn fillertastic.

Silly though it is, I really am loving the new ending (Daily Motion; skip to 1m28s). It's just filled with personality. Watching this ending makes it so clear how the writers of the anime tried to make Unova stand out as "the supporting characters-driven series," and I think it was one of the series' real strengths. While they kinda sorta overdid it (especially with all of the in-hindsight incessant Don Tournaments ^^; ), having all of these personality-filled supporting characters really made Unova feel like an actual anime with an actual story at times instead of like Scooby Doo & Pikachu Too. And it's not just the humans either. The video does a great job of illustrating the personalities of Pokémon like Oshawott and Snivy or the interrelationships of ones like Charizard and Dragonite. Here's a Vimeo version for those who either can't or don't want to use Daily Motion. Sorry that YouTube's not an option -- all the videos are muted. =\ (EDIT: YouTube -- skip to 21m53s. You're welcome. )

YouTube recommended the English dub of Iris's match against Langley from the Junior Cup Tournament, so I decided to re-enjoy one of the best moments of the Unova anime. It's not every day you get to see one of our heroes in control of a Level 90+ ... The English voices are kinda eh, and I have no idea why they decided against keeping Langley and changed her name to Georgia, but whatever, it's still serviceable.

Afaik, there's still no word yet on what we'll be doing in Region 6. A lot of kids on YouTube on both sides of the Pacific seem to be feverishly discussing the possibility of ShoPro retiring Ash a) because of how the newest ending credits make it seem like Ash's journey is coming to a close (?) and b) because of how positively and enthusiastically fans reacted towards the BW2 animated promotional trailers. I think the kids are living in a dream world myself. ^^; But it sure would be interesting (and shocking!) if they retired Ash out of nowhere this October. But yeah, there's no effing way that that's happening. No way in Hell would they retire Ash without at least first giving him the opportunity to re-enter the Indigo League tournament and this time win it.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:10 PM   #69
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ugh I need to never watch the anime again it just makes me mad how bad they are at Pokémon.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:36 PM   #70
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ugh I need to never watch the anime again it just makes me mad how bad they are at Pokémon.
With an attitude like that, you guys should seriously change your name. Keeping it as "anime-style battling" is just downright fraudulent at this point.

What didn't you like about the battle I linked? Remember that the Dragonite in question is depicted as being as experienced as and as capable as a Champion's Pokémon.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:49 PM   #71
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I know, I'll use Focus Blast on that Dragonite! That's a great idea!!!!

We're just like the animé but with less plottwist related flukes. And we have Beedrill that can rend the universe asunder.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:02 PM   #72
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With Ash reverting to a 10-year-old beginner at the start of every series it's clear that older fans will never get the closure they deserve. I hate the anime's formula with every bone in my body because it's all abundantly clear that they care more about milking their cash cow than they do about plot.

You can only spend so many years, watch Ash travel through so many regions, collecting so many badges and coming top-16 in so many tournaments before you realise that Ash is never going to become a Pokémon master and the show is never meant to end. It annoys me more than you could imagine.

Just give us a mature Pokémon anime with 14 episode seasons already. Or make an anime adaptation of the Pokémon manga.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:05 PM   #73
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I suspect that a pokémon Manga movie would give my inner child heart palpatations.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:09 PM   #74
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I don't even watch the anime anymore, just catch up on key events on Bulbapedia, but I was actually left feeling almost angry when I read up on the recent Butterfree episode only to discover that Ash's Butterfree was only featured in flashbacks.

What the fuck. Seriously, that annoyed me. They set it all up and then took it away.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:09 PM   #75
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I know, I'll use Focus Blast on that Dragonite! That's a great idea!!!!

We're just like the animé but with less plottwist related flukes. And we have Beedrill that can rend the universe asunder.
The Focus Blast and Hidden Power use was dumb, sure, ... until you realize that:
  1. starting some time in Hoenn or Sinnoh, the anime suddenly started to care about the video games' four-move limitation on movepools
  2. the Beartic in this battle is one we've seen multiple times before now
  3. they couldn't just cut to the chase with him using his Ice-type moves. They wanted to build some suspense. "Well obviously a Focus Blast wouldn't do shit, but an Ice Beam ...!"
  4. it would have been even more retarded, given #1, to have displayed the Beartic knowing and using 3+ different Ice-type moves. While I'm not going to sit here and argue that Special moves make the most sense on a Beartic or that Fighting and Ice pair off as wonderfully as Ice and Electric do, you've gotta admit that Focus Blast at least decently complements Ice Beam and Blizzard, offering some utility against Steel, Rock, and Normal, with Steel being kind of a big one since it resists Ice.
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = they did the best they could with the restrictions they've put into place upon themselves. The point of the battle wasn't to see a Beartic using video game-competent commands immediately. The point of the battle was to work your way up to the HOLY SHIT DID THAT DRAGONITE JUST TAKE AN ICE BEAM!? and HOLY SHIT IS THAT DRAGONITE CHARGING THROUGH A BLIZZARD AND PUNCHING HIS OPPONENT IN THE FACE!? If that doesn't crack a smile or a "Holy shit " look of surprise on your face, then your last drop of childhood must have evaporated by now. ;p
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