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Old 04-02-2016, 11:03 PM   #1226
Heather
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Slash, stop. You're doing it wrong. Rather than telling someone all the negatives they'll identify with by identifying as republican, negatives they may not even identify with no less, you should ask what parts of the republican platform do they get behind. Why do they lean right rather than left? Doing what youre doing essentially labels sato as all of those things, and I don't think it's fair to do that to anyone, much less someone so young, for simply stating an opinion, especially if most or all of those labels don't even accurately describe sato. We didn't do that to Shuckle for being a Trump supporter, or at the very least not this violently. Come on.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:32 PM   #1227
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Then why? Do you agree with the homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, oppressive, sexist, racist, F-in-economics, religiously-intolerant, climate change-denying platform of the Republican party? Is that really the party you want to affiliate with?
I never criticised you, so why do you have the right to criticise me? Just because you're a Liberal doesn't mean I have to be. And I really don't think that any other 13 year old would think differently from what their parents think. At least not yet. You're treating me like I'm 10 times older than what I really am.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:36 PM   #1228
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I'm not saying they describe sato. But they undoubtedly describe the Republican base. I don't think they do describe sato. What I'm saying is, unless a significant amount of those do describe sato, what reasons would he have to support what is quite frankly a backwards and oppressive party.

Not saying all Republicans are all bad, and not saying Democrats are universal good, either. There's a lot of corruption and unwillingness to work across party lines by far too many higher-ups on both sides. But the Republican establishment, at least at its top levels, is actively dangerous for a huge number of people. The Democrat establishment may be corrupt as fuck, too, but at least they try to make the world a better place, even if just a few steps.

It's not even a partisan thing here. I'm not a Democrat. Last cycle I voted green, and I'm registered as unaffiliated. I'd gladly vote republican if there were a progressive, healthy candidate they had to offer. And I do hold some views that are typically republican (such as gun rights). But even their center-rights are usually bordering on fundies, and they get called RINOs for not being right-wing enough.

So, yeah, if that lists sounds rough, it was meant to be. That list is a strong core of a lot of the issues Republicans as an establishment represent. Unless you identify with a number of those, there's not much reason to identify Republican.

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I never criticised you, so why do you have the right to criticise me? Just because you're a Liberal doesn't mean I have to be. And I really don't think that any other 13 year old would think differently from what their parents think. At least not yet. You're treating me like I'm 10 times older than what I really am.
I may be treating you as too old, and for that I do apologise. When I think of young'uns who visit debate forums, I do admittedly tend to think more about the Rangeets. As far as 13 year-olds thinking differently than their parents, I did. Vastly. Kinda happens when you're gay and your parents are Southern Baptists. Its never too early to try to start thinking for yourself. In fact, it's better to start young, makes it less likely you'll be indoctrinated into things like religions and discriminatory beliefs
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:42 PM   #1229
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Look I'm way to young to get into these kinds of conversations, or more like arguments. I don't want people looking at me in different ways just because of my political beliefs.
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:46 PM   #1230
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Well, it's a politics thread, so it's inevitably going to get a little heated at times. And while I think supporting Republican beliefs is a bad move, it doesn't affect my opinion of you either way. You've not by far reached the levels of He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named, so it's all cool. I can disagree with your positions on some things and still not dislike you.

Peace?
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:56 PM   #1231
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Peace. Thanks, Slash
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Old 04-02-2016, 11:58 PM   #1232
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EDIT: Nevermind, not gonna chew anyone out since it's resolved. Just gonna talk to Sato real quick.

Sato, don't let this argument get to you and turn you off of politics. It's completely okay to be Republican in a great many aspects! While I, as a stalwart liberal, would disagree with you in literally every aspect of politics, that's not a bad thing. Honestly, the only two things in the Republican platform that are objectively bad are denying Climate Change and Anti-Gay policies. Other than that, it depends entirely on your own outlook and past experiences. For example, I'm a lower-middle class guy from Chicago. Being lower-middle class, I'm a staunch supporter of things like Single Payer Health Care and expanding Social Security, and being from a city torn apart by gun violence I am one of the strongest advocates for gun control you'll ever meet. You seem to be from a fairly privileged family, so you haven't dealt with economic hardships, nor have you lived in a place like Chicago. Nor, I imagine, have you really known anyone from the LGBT community, or anyone else negatively affected by the policies of the Republican Party.

And all of that's okay! It's good that you haven't had to deal with the hardships that plague the world at your age. You shouldn't have to. But when you're old enough to vote and form your own views, not based on those of your parents, I really hope you'll put yourself in the shoes of other people. You're still young, and it's hard to have that kind of perspective when you're barely a teenager, I know. You don't need to have it now. But at some point you'll have that capability, and I really hope you'll take a step back when that time comes, and evaluate the positions your parents have instilled in you. If you still agree with what you've been taught, embrace it and advocate for it. It's your life and your beliefs, not Slash's, not mine. But if you find you don't agree with what you've been taught as much as you once thought you did, always be open to new alternatives.

If you want to try that now, don't hesitate! It's never too early to start looking into things and forming your own opinions, all I'm saying is you don't have to yet. If this conversation has, beyond upsetting you for very good reason, made you at all curious about the other side of the aisle, by all means, look into some issues! Even if your opinion doesn't change, you'll be wiser for it, guaranteed.
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Old 04-03-2016, 12:02 AM   #1233
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Thank you so much and I agree. You guys are really nice.
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:18 AM   #1234
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Sato you really can't use the "I'm not Republican just because my parents are" excuse and then turn around and say "Which 13 year old would think differently from their parents anyway?". I mean, come on, I think even you can see that's a little bit logically inconsistent.

Also if you think that you're too young to get into political discussions (which I believe is quite wrong, but it's your decision) then I really want to tell you in the kindest possible way that this probably isn't a thread you want to be in, given that the name of this thread is "American Politics."

I also want to disagree with Snorby. Becoming your own person is the most important part of not being a child anymore. It is something you have to do, whether you like it or not. The longer you stay away from challenging your own beliefs, the more it becomes a bad habit.

Finally, I'd like to state my own opinion. There is nothing wrong with being Republican. There is everything wrong with voting along Republican lines.
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:38 AM   #1235
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Republican does not necessarily equal hardline conservative.

Conservative does not necessarily equal bigot or ignoramus.

Before we jump down each other's throats let's all consider the fact that no one is going to just blindly agree with everything a group or party or representative says, and if they do they're either lying or haven't taken the time to think it through.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:07 AM   #1236
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But Jeri, that's the thing. Vast swathes of the viewpoints of the Republican party are things that I find morally abhorrent. Everything from LGBT rights to abortion rights to abolishing social welfare to opposing almost any form of gun control to trickle-down economics. I have to assume that if you're voting along Republican lines, you agree with at least one or more of these: because the Democrat party, while certainly having its own issues, is on "my" side on all these issues.

I'm not counting when the Republican candidate for governor/similar is blatantly better than the Democrat candidate. Locally, voting along party lines doesn't necessarily work, and locally speaking the difference often tends to blur.

But the fact remains that if you call yourself Republican, logic suggests you have to agree with one or more of these, right? Because again, it's only fair to assume that the current Republican candidates for President are a fair representation of Republicans. How telling is it that Republicans tend to be Tea Party during primaries and more central during elections? They cannot get votes without being extremist right. And even their "central" is what I would consider extremist right.

Am I wrong in saying that the Republican party would be considered far-right in England, in Finland, in France, in most of West Europe?

So see, that's my thing. I cannot see how and why you would legitimately vote Republican. Hillary Clinton is better than every one of the Republican candidates; she is socially progressive, won't abolish healthcare, etc etc etc, and that is a goddamn scary statement to make, because she is as much of a corrupt politician as they come!

I'm happy to debate on this; I promise I won't get personal if anyone wants to tell me about what views they have that coincide with actual positions that the Republican party holds and also explain where they disagree with the Democrat party.

But yes, I will say this, that almost all of my dislike comes from the ludicrously socially regressive policies of the Republican Party. I can't handle that. It does not belong in the world's largest country in 2016. Period, done. Also the ridiculous proselytization, for lack of a better word, and undermining the secular roots of America. I can't understand why someone would vote for people holding views like that: but the thing is, how many Republicans are there who don't hold views like that? None of the current Republican candidates, at least.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:47 AM   #1237
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You're making the (false) assumption that all or a majority Republicans who run on platforms that you call "morally abhorrent" actually eschew these things and take action upon them and aren't just pandering to the base, only to become more or less moderate when they actually take office.

This is basically 100% the case for presidential elections on both sides, and the case for the most part in Congressional politics as well.
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:23 PM   #1238
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But the fact remains that if you call yourself Republican, logic suggests you have to agree with one or more of these, right?
The perception of the Republicans as a homogenous, monolithically conservative organization is a myth created by the Republican leaders themselves, to portray the party as unified. It's a narrative fabrication.

The Republican Party is, essentially, no different from any organization that people can claim membership toward. Like the Roman Catholic Church, where the majority of people who identify as members don't go to church or even know much about it.

My family, for example, has been Democrats as far back as my lineage in America goes. Yet, my mom and dad are pretty conservative, while my sister and I are centrists (though she is left of centre). We're not liberals by any stretch of the imagination, although I could fake it pretty well with a line-item list of where I stand on issues.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:43 PM   #1239
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Ok this conversation should be over and done with. I thank everyone who has given me advice and all, but really it was I who began all this. (i was going to say "started it" but I definitely do not want to sound like Trump)

And btw I told my parents about this whole thing about me getting involved in this thread and they told me to let it go. They said I really shouldn't be discussing these sort of things with people I don't even know well.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:13 AM   #1240
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You're making the (false) assumption that all or a majority Republicans who run on platforms that you call "morally abhorrent" actually eschew these things and take action upon them and aren't just pandering to the base, only to become more or less moderate when they actually take office.

This is basically 100% the case for presidential elections on both sides, and the case for the most part in Congressional politics as well.
I'm sorry Jeri, but this is the exact same argument Trump supporters use, and I think it's even worse from my point of view. What on earth am I supposed to think if you say, "I'm going to vote for this guy, but don't worry, I think he's lying about the part where he says gay marriage is bad and God needs to be in every school."

If Republicans have to pander to the base, what does that say about the base? And keep in mind, it's the base that's Republican, not the politicians: the politicians are, in theory anyway, representative of the base. And if the majority of Republicans didn't support my "morally abhorrent" platforms...the Republicans would not need to pander to such extremist right views.

Even in the general elections, Romney still put forth ridiculous views about gay marriage, 47%, you know it. And keep in mind, from my point of view, even Kasich can go stuff it, because he's pro-life(I don't want to have a debate on abortion: again, I'm just stating my opinion on this and I want to talk about how I view Republicans, and especially because I know it's probably not a very healthy opinion to have.) This isn't high school where a grade of 40% means you pass; there's no reason anyone should tolerate even ONE out of the beliefs that the current running politicians tend to have.

If Republicans really aren't as far right as I think, then how come nobody on the top level who's representing them...isn't left enough to acknowledge social issues? If they have to pander to the base so much, what does it say about Republicans?

And see, from where I'm standing, if you call yourself a Republican, you are allying yourself with those viewpoints. It is only logical, is it not? If you call yourself a Catholic, I assume that you believe in God, believe in communion, etc. If you really don't follow any of the views the current Republican candidates have...why would you call yourself that, then? And, in America, "conservative" means Republican. That's the problem when you have a two-party system.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:24 AM   #1241
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And, in America, "conservative" means Republican. That's the problem when you have a two-party system.
Bahaha I'm sorry but no.

Republicans are conservative (even reactionary, at times) but conservatives aren't necessarily republicans. You can hate the LGBT community and want to bomb the shit out of the middle east but still be desperate for your welfare check every months. There's a lot of people like that. They're social conservatives, but they're likely to run into the open arms of right-leaning democrat, for example, Hillary Clinton before she flopped on Same Sex Marriage a few years back, before they run to a nutcase like Ted Cruz or even a Kasich, both of whom would surely be willing to cut spending on their financial aid.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:55 AM   #1242
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In this election, perhaps, but I think it'd be hypocritical if you called yourself conservative(relatively speaking from an American POV) and yet voted for Clinton, and I don't want to start off an argument assuming someone's hypocritical.
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:39 AM   #1243
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Supporting someone you disagree with isn't exactly hypocrisy. It's only hypocrisy when you claim moral authority then proceed to do something in opposition to it, and specifically for that reason.

You can disagree with Clinton on many issues but still think she's a good candidate. Hypocrisy would be believing that life begins at conception but also that illegal immigration should be stopped, so you vote Clinton specifically because you think abortion would kill off Mexican babies and limit the problem.

True hypocrisy is a logical fallacy that isn't realized by the individual, and so is rather rare. Otherwise, you're just lying to people about your true intentions.
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Old 04-05-2016, 08:10 PM   #1244
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Fox News calling Wisconsin for Bernie at 0% results in... ayy lmao
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Old 04-05-2016, 09:13 PM   #1245
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Sanders and Cruz won Wisconsin's primaries, Sanders' victory being important mostly due to momentum rather than cutting much into Clinton's delegate lead (following a win in Wyoming this upcoming weekend, Sanders will have won 8 out the 9 last contests), which would certainly aid him going into New York on the 19th. Cruz's victory is mostly important due to delegates and potential momentum as well, as Wisconsin being mostly winner take all helps to frustrate Trump's path to a non-contested convention.
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Old 04-05-2016, 09:20 PM   #1246
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Sanders has now won 7 of the last 8 elections, 6 of those by total landslides. He is also expected to win Saturday's caucus in Wyoming by such a large margin that he could make Hillary non-viable.

He's currently leading Hillary by 8% in Wisconsin. If he holds that that would still be a big win for him.

In other news, Cruz and Trump continue to be pissed off by Kasich's existence, as Kasich knows that if he goes into the convention he has a shot at contesting it and coming out the nominee. Which I would be okay with. I'm not a huge Kasich fan but if Kasich were to win the presidency, I would just be annoyed more than upset. Which I am completely okay with, over the alternatives.

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Old 04-05-2016, 10:40 PM   #1247
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YES, Cruz won Wisconsin!!!!!

yaaaaaay
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Old 04-07-2016, 04:30 PM   #1248
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Cruz > Trump by 13%. Huge victory!

Sanders > Clinton by 13%. Close call.

I... see.
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Old 04-07-2016, 07:18 PM   #1249
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The media is super biased.

But yeah its proportional for Democrats which i think most people forget
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Old 04-07-2016, 07:43 PM   #1250
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Yeah it's not entirely unreasonable to make that assessment in this particular case because Sanders doesn't really gain much of a material advantage.
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