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Old 12-28-2016, 04:02 PM   #276
Talon87
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Whoops, finished this last week and haven't posted about it until now.

I thought the finale was okay. As I told AK2, I thought there were elements to it that were dumb or weak and then I thought there were parts that were at least an 8 out of 10 level of quality. In the end, Diamond is Unbreakable stays put as the worst of the four JoJos I've seen so far. That doesn't mean it's bad -- it just means it isn't the best, and is in fact the worst.

Episode 39:

Spoiler: show
I thought that Kira trying to activate Bites the Dust one last time and then lol turns out you're already dead ... was pretty anticlimactic on the reveal. Like, I was excited to see what was happening, but the moment he showed up alongside Reimi it was already a 50-50 bet he was dead and then when they confirmed he was dead I was like "Weeeell shoot. "

I love that Jōtarō finally got an opportunity to be relevant, but man if Doppel didn't call it -- Jōtarō's powers render villains going forward (or at least, render Part IV's villains) utterly impotent. The only issue Araki presented for why Jōtarō couldn't neutralize the threat was, "He's out of range!" ......................... and then even that didn't matter in the end because lol I'm in range now bitch.

And it's like ... the range that we're talking about here, it doesn't even make sense. In Part III, when Dio used The World to defeat Kakyouin, the range there was easily a city block, with Kakyouin along the upper face of one building and Dio standing across the city block-sized area from him. And we expect that Jōtarō should have caught up to, if not wholly surpassed, Dio by now. So like ... what the fuck is 15 meters' distance, then? It's so stupid that Araki tried to play the distance card at a time like this. It just doesn't work.

Reimi was ridiculously gorgeous -- quite possibly the most beautiful female character in the JoJo universe to date, even beating out Jōsuke's mom and Mariah -- which made her departure that much more "Rnnnnngh " to me.

Kouichi getting to be the one who really can be credited with defeating Kira (what with how Act III immobilizes Kira's hand and prevents him from detonating his bomb) was kinda surprising. I 100% expected the champion to either be Jōsuke (who was not) or Jōtarō (who was in part). But yeah ... Araki really showering Kouichi with some love here.

Why can't Antonio's power be used to heal Okuyasu's father? That seems like a glaring plot hole to me. If Antonio can cure cancer and rotten teeth, why the fuck can't he reverse the damage caused by the flesh bud?

The scene with Shinobu and Hayato, with Shinobu awaiting her husband's return home, that was a pretty emotional if short scene.

The ending part with Joseph and Jōsuke was really lame and really weak, I thought. I especially dislike that they're taking the baby back with them to America and that, WELP, WE CAN'T FIND THE MOM SO WE JUST GIVE UP! Like, what the hell, guys. I guess it can be explained away, courtesy of Joseph's immense wealth, by saying, "If they find the mother, Joseph will be on the first flight back to Japan." Like, for a man of Joseph's immense wealth, there's little difference between "took the baby away from where I found it and kept it in my hotel in Morioh" and "took the baby away from where I found it and kept it with me in New York City." But yeah ... I dunno ...

And isn't it pretty fucking weird that we introduced the baby in this story arc, even had it derail the story proper, only to end up doing absolutely nothing with it!? If that baby doesn't end up mattering to Parts IV, V, VI, VII, or VIII, I'm going to have serious questions for Mr. Araki ...
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Old 12-28-2016, 04:51 PM   #277
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Going to say it right now: the baby is completely irrelevant to the future parts. Don't care if that's a spoiler to you!

Spoiler: show

I figured you would have mixed feelings toward the finale, as I did too. Some parts of it seemed really stupid/childish, like how Kira technically dies by being run over and not through Jotaro's pummeling (in keeping with the JUMP tradition of a morally immaculate hero) but would like him being dragged into a horrible underworld by the ghostly hands. Similarly, there's the somber scene with Shinobu and the rather silly one with Joseph.


Overall, I thought your watch of Part IV was very interesting. As I've mentioned before, I went from absolutely hating it to liking it a lot, more than Part III which was largely boring to me until the Jojo party landed in Egypt. I also had a lot more fun with both Phantom Blood and Battle Tendency, although the mystery of Morioh had an appeal to the VN lover in me who drew some transient connections to the like of Ever17 and Remember11.

Part V has been green-lit for animation. It's one of the worst Jojo parts by reputation, and for that reason I haven't read it myself. But for that exact reason, I'm going to actually pick-up the anime. I know next to nothing about Part V except the main character's identity, and maybe the bad guy's name.

V for Virgin!
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Old 12-28-2016, 05:16 PM   #278
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If Part V's really that bad, then I wouldn't say no to a Season 1 approach where they give us a nine-episode Part V and then a sixteen-episode Part VI. I really don't want to have to sit through a shitty arc for two full seasons or longer. Even if it's a stand-alone 13'er, just make it a stand-alone 13'er. Don't make it a 26'er. Don't make it a 39'er like Part IV. And certainly don't make it a 48'er or 52'er like Part III.

That's fine about the baby. If it genuinely never shows up again -- and we're already onto Part IX by now, iirc -- then I don't much mind the spoiler and can go ahead and say:

Spoiler: show
the baby is an utterly pointless and frankly bizarre introduction to the plot.
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Old 12-28-2016, 05:49 PM   #279
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I only know Part V by reputation, so I'm going to watch it to make a call myself. Granted, Jojo tends to gravitate around Part III in terms of fan opinion, where Part III is considered the best (at least, until Steel Ball Run), and the further you get away from that in either temporal direction, the worse the story gets.

Part I was said to be bad too, and I knew the story beforehand, but I liked it a lot. And I recall a lot of people expressing a higher opinion of Jonathan to whom they barely gave any recognition prior to Phantom Blood being animated. The (comparatively) unique, historical Victorian setting starring Dio, the most famous Jojo antagonist, helped it along a lot.

So, I am willing to give Part V the benefit of the doubt. Jotaro doesn't appear in it at all, and Joseph has already died, so it's as close to a stand-alone Jojo as you'd find.

Part VI is very similar to Part III in terms of structure, so I wouldn't be in a hurry to rush into it.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:59 AM   #280
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Been sitting on this post for like a month or two and I may as well introduce myself to the thread.

I started JJBA around summer, with the 2012 anime after hearing a lot about how great it is. I didn't have huge expectations for the series, going in, but I was pleasantly surprised. I liked the "unique" art style, the music, fights, the humor, and so on. I was pretty much hooked and was excited for the next episode. I didn't really catch up to the Part IV anime until early November, and when I did, I read the manga from that point and finished it. I haven't seen the episodes after 35 yet.

My favorite JoJo is Josuke, and I would rank them like this: Josuke > Joseph > Jotaro > Jonathan.

My favorite JoJo Part (so far) is Diamond is Unbreakable, and I would rank the parts like this: 4 > 2 > 3 > 1.

I hope to get more involved in the thread in the future.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:55 AM   #281
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We need more opinions on what Part IV is good. Do go on if you would, since the anime is a done deal.

Actually the anime is spurring on a lot of debate. A bunch of folks call Kira a "bad" villain because he's weak compared to even the Part III mooks. That misses the whole point of his character!

Not to mention Kira is Araki's favourite villain. Dio has more or less been a caricature of himself since Part I, his development has been set in stone, but Kira's inner turmoil went back and forth like the tides on a Castillian beach.

...

Also Talon, but I forgot to mention: Jotaro is much weaker in Part IV than Part III.
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Old 08-18-2018, 10:56 PM   #282
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Yo, it's Part V! And it looks like the official title is, after all the drama, Golden Wind. Okay that's fine.

I'm definitely coming aboard for this one. This one and Part VII.
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Old 08-22-2018, 06:26 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Yo, it's Part V! And it looks like the official title is, after all the drama, Golden Wind. Okay that's fine.

I'm definitely coming aboard for this one. This one and Part VII.
Hell.yeah.
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Old 10-07-2018, 08:50 AM   #284
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Golden Wind Episode 01:

Spoiler: show
A typically entertaining, exciting episode of JoJo. Frustrated by the cliffhanger ending. Aware I'm going to have to (re-)get used to this.

Still trying to figure out and understand what Giorno's powers are. The episode has well established the concept of, "If he generates something with his powers and you strike it, your attack will be redirected towards you and it will be as though you struck yourself." Fire a bullet at what he's generated and you'll be shot. Attempt to cleave it with a sword and you'll be cut in two. Attempt to bring it crashing to the ground and you'll find yourself thrown down against the floor. But there are other properties of Giorno's powers we've already borne witness to that I can't quite explain yet. Like the time two butterflies flew out of a woman's purse and turned into lira in his hands. Did he transform her money and pickpocket it? That's what appears to have happened, but it's not clear to me yet. Or how about his ability to transform Koichi's suitcase into a frog and then back into a suitcase? Not only would such a power be independent from the ability to redirect attacks, but Giorno spends an awful lot of time telling Luca about the sanctity of life only to then mercilessly transform the "living creature" back into a suitcase again. So what exactly is going on here? Giorno also mentions loyalty, telling Luca that the frog isn't fully loyal to Giorno yet. What does that even mean? Was the tree he generated to escape Koichi fully loyal to him? What does "loyalty" mean and how is it earned? These are all questions I am sure will be answered in due time. But for now, it's annoying to be left hanging.

Bruno is so ridiculously brutal (what with the mafia killings and whatnot), it's hard to say whether he'll be our next "foe turned friend" like Okuyasu from Diamond is Unbreakable. He certainly seems like, design-wise, he's meant to be Giorno's right-hand man. But vice versa one has to wonder if he's not either a) the series' main antagonist or else b) the series main antagonist's right hand man. B in particular if the series' main antagonist is the mafia don Bruno talked about this episode.

Interesting that Giorno is "half Japanese" yet genetically and phenotypically all we've seen of him so far is his relationship to Jonathan and Dio. The "he looks like you, Joutarou" has to be the Jonathan blood in him, whereas the "muda muda" and blond hair are all references to his Dio heritage. Araki is doing fucky and typically comic booky things here with inheritance -- I don't think it works quite this way if a vampire attaches his head to someone else's body, but what do I know? -- but the one looming question is, "What is the source of Giorno's Japanese ancestry?" We're told he's half Japanese. Not one-quarter or distantly. Half. This suggests that Dio had sex with a full-blooded Japanese woman. Holly we can cross off the list, a) because she was in bed in Japan the entirety of Stardust Crusaders and more importantly b) because she isn't even gentically Japanese herself, being of pure European ancestry (father: Joseph, mother: Suzie Q). Tomoko, Jousuke's mother, we can also probably rule out since the events of Golden Wind seem to take place shortly after the events of Diamond is Unbreakable, requiring Giorno to be only slightly younger (at age 15) than Jousuke (who was in high school in DiU), and there's no reason to expect Tomoko (who is herself rather young in DiU) to have been bedded by Dio during the events of Stardust Crusaders. So instead of Holly or Tomoko, it seems far more likely that Giorno's mother is some Japanese female character we've yet to have been introduced to. The weirdest thing about his Japanese parentage though is ...
  • Dio's victims don't typically survive; so if Giorno's mother was one of Dio's sex slaves, that casts her survival in doubt
  • Dio was mostly in Egypt during the events of Stardust Crusaders; as far as we know, he was never in Japan or Italy
  • yet Giorno appears to have grown up in Italy, suggesting that the baby somehow wound up here, far from Japan or Egypt
So who knows, man. O_o Who knows what's going on.

It'll be interesting to see how Araki writes Giorno vs. Dio, i.e. both men grew up in the same squalor but Dio turned out one way while Giorno turns out quite a different way. It will also be interesting to see how much Araki argues for Giorno's Joestarness vs. how much he casts Giorno as the spawn of Dio.

This episode sure doesn't do Naples any favors, promoting tourism-wise.

What assignment is Joutarou on that's so important that he sends Koichi to investigate the mysterious case of Dio's missing heir? I'm surprised Joutarou isn't personally there on site. Not saying Koichi's inept. Just that ... if Joutarou is deputizing Koichi like this and sending him on a solo mission to Italy, what can Joutarou be busy with that is keeping him from going to Italy himself? Running the Speedwagon Foundation?

I'll be interested to see if we do end up meeting any Zeppelis. IIRC it was implied that Caesar was the last of Will A. Zeppeli's line, but a) I could be wrong about that and b) even if that is true it doesn't have to mean that there aren't other Zeppelis. Maybe Will had some cousins or siblings. Maybe Caesar, in this post-Diamond is Unbreakable world that is so fond of taking our old favorite characters and raking them through the muck of sexcapades and marital infidelity, happened to sire an heir at the young age of 15/16/17 while he was in Italy. Who knows!~

It will also be interesting to see what this Big Bad's powers are (if it's not Bruno, which I doubt that it is), and what this Big Bad's motivations are. Is he another descendant of Dio's, only from the Victorian England time period of Dio's activity and not the 1980s time period? (Which would of course make him 0% Joestar, vs. the X% Joestar that Giorno would appear to be.) Is he trying to bring Dio back from the dead? What does he want? What are his goals? UGH! Questions. Questions we likely won't have any answers to for at least a good other 13 episodes.

Overall, I enjoyed the episode. I'd say it was a solid 7/10, maybe an 8 for the excitement factor. We're off to a good start here with Vento Aureo ... Oh wait. Yeah. Elephant in the room:

Vento Aureo vs. Golden Wind for the show name, and then Golden Wind vs. Gold Experience for the Stand power. Just like with Diamond is Unbreakable, they've done it again and changed the name of the protagonist's Stand power just to avoid legal issues. "Gold Experience" is the name of an album by Prince and is what we hear Giorno saying in Japanese every time he summons his Stand, yet for legal reasons the sub has had to go with "Golden Wind", the name of the series ... This calls to question whether the anime title of Vento Aureo / Golden Wind is, in the original Japanese, referring to the Stand power or whether it's referring to something else and the translation is now fucked up. But oh well. Whatever.
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Old 10-07-2018, 02:01 PM   #285
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I'm getting this now.

There was a curious upload on Nyaa, a subtitle fix. The description said Horrible's release didn't use the proper stand names or something to that effect. Since they're named after bands that would be quite the blunder. So I'm going to go with Some-Stuff's.
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Old 10-07-2018, 02:52 PM   #286
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Spoiler: show

Giorno's voice is pretty good. Unfortunately he was recast from Grand Battle, but he sounded like a younger version of that CV (Daisuke Namikawa).

I was horrifed to see his name as Kenshou Ono, though. Why is superchad BURASTO BAAN getting more roles?! Is this a meme?? Oh well, he's fine.

Yay, I haven't been hype for Jojo in years.

@Talon

Dio traveled around the world before establishing Egypt as his base. That's why he was able to recruit Stand users from many different nations. Remember he was pulled up several years before the events of Stardust Crusaders.

Also, Giorno's Stand is Gold Experience. That's the original name, not a censor.
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Old 10-12-2018, 04:38 PM   #287
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Golden Wind Episode 02:

Spoiler: show
Didn't enjoy this one as much as the first, even though it delightfully answered a whole lot of questions and was in general a pretty good JoJo episode. I dunno. A lot of people are excited for "the yaoi arc", and I'm not ... Then a lot of people are excited for the story, but having avoided spoilers (and worrying that the most obvious Big Bad outcome is upon us), I can't get too excited there yet either ... Giorno's easily my least favorite protagonist so far, yet he's one friend's all-time favorite because of the degree he sees himself in Giorno ... Bruno seems pretty boring, about as shallow of a character as Okuyasu but without any of the charm ... I dunno! I guess we'll see what happens.

One thing's for certain, though: Araki probably shares with me a strong love for Yakumo Yukari. All these portal users!

Not too thrilled with the plot idea of "Giorno is trying to reach the top and become head mobster in Naples." As a sentence it sounds very different from "Jousuke is trying to protect the town his dearly departed grandfather so loved," but fundamentally it's the same damn plot done twice in a row: protag is trying to become his hometown's guardian. Arcs 1, 2, and 3 each had their own stories different from 4's, and yet now 5 apes 4's and we get 4's twice in a row. Seems disappointing.

Still don't have a great handle on how Giorno's powers work. He tells Bruno that he turned Bruno's tooth into a fly so that it would and could return to its master, yet when he turned Kouichi's suitcase into a frog the frog neither headed for Kouichi nor for the Speedwagon Foundation but instead went straight to Giorno. I'll agree that a suitcase "isn't a part of someone" the same way a tooth is, but still: why go to Giorno at all?

Also don't have a great grasp on how Bruno's powers work. Most people can't see Stands, so I'm left wondering what the 13 year-old was thinking the entire time Bruno was playing the shell game with their arms. Similarly, I don't really get the consequences for Giorno "tearing off his own arm" and throwing it at Bruno if, seconds later, Giorno's able to walk out of the circle and his arm is reattached to his body perfectly fine, no pain, no blood, nothing.

As for Bruno managing to hide inside of the 13 year-old without causing him any injury, yet we're told in Episode 01 that Bruno uses his zipper powers to place fingers in Giorno's mouth, an eyeball in Giorno's hand, and remarks to Giorno that he could have stuffed a watermelon in Giorno's head if he had wanted to but that it wouldn't have been pretty for poor Giorno since watermelons don't fit ... The implication appears to be that Bruno's powers have the narrative properties of both portals and of hammerspaces: that he can relocate something from Position A to Position B by first relocating it from A to C, his hammerspace, and then from C to B. He doesn't kill the boy because he simply created a door on the boy's body (A) leading to his hammerspace (C) within which he hid, but Giorno gagged up fingers because Bruno relocated them from wherever (A) to his hammerspace (C), and then from his hammerspace (C) to the inside of Giorno's mouth (B). This reminds me a lot of how Yakumo Yukari is also shown to frequently operate, with things either going A->C or else going C->B in a lot of her depictions in fanart and stories.



Yakumo Yukari: Araki's favorite Touhou?

While we're on the topic of Touhou in a JoJo thread , I may as well bring up: I wonder if, indeed, Yukari is not at least partly inspired by Bruno in the same fashion that Sakuya is (greatly) inspired by Dio Brando. Googling for it, it seems I'm not even the first to notice the similarities:

"Fans tend to draw Yukari and her gaps with Bruno Buccellati from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, who is able to open gaps (zippers) in the same fashion as Yukari." - https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Gap



"Huh."

Aw man, does that mean I have to like Bruno now? D: Yukari is my favorite Touhou character (Byakuren is either tied with her or in 2nd, but Yukari's always tops), and here comes this guy and he steals her power is probably ZUN's inspiration for her power. >_> Goddammit.

Giorno's power of heightening someone's senses(?) when punched by his Stand is definitely something we're going to revisit in the future. Will be interesting to see if he can use his powers on himself or if, like Jousuke, there is a self-exception placed on his powers. Obviously it seemed to disadvantage Bruno here, but I wonder if we'll see it in some future fight where Giorno can use it on himself to great effect or if, vice versa, he tries to use it on the Big Bad but it only further empowers the Big Bad rather than hindering him.

So, getting it out of the way: the red herring is that the boss of Bruno's mafia organization is none other than Giorno's benefactor, the man whose life he spared all those years ago. The flashback does such a job of driving home what an "honorable mafioso" Giorno's benefactor was that one can't help but to suspect that that was Araki deliberately trying to lead us astray and that the mafioso ends up selling drugs to Naples' youth after all. ("Hey, I never denied the kid's claim [when he accused me of being scum too]. I just said his dad was.") But the thing is, it's so obvious ... that I feel like it has to be a red herring. Araki is baiting us into thinking that Bruno's boss is Giorno's benefactor. Some things to consider:
  • Giorno's benefactor knows who he is, so if he heard that "Giorno Giovanna" had killed Leaky Eye Luca he wouldn't have sent Bruno after him. Luca was a low man on the totem pole, and Benefactor owes Giorno a blood debt. Even if he was Bruno's boss, and even if he was pissed at Giorno for killing Luca, and even if he would have normally repayed that killing with a murder of his own, in this one case he would have said "Now we're even" and let bygones be bygones.
  • It's doubtful that Bruno's boss would have said "Bring him to me dead or alive, I don't care" if he were Giorno's benefactor. The benefactor would have at least wanted Giorno brought there alive, to hear his side of the story from his own lips.
  • either Araki or Urasawa (Monster) would be plagiarizing the other if we're going to go down the path of, "You saved my life ... thank you ... now I get to become the monster who will oppose you in the future! " (Looks like it'd be Araki doing the plagiarizing, too. Monster started in December 1994, whereas Golden Wind started in November 1995. I'm willing to bet that teenage Johan was already revealed in the manga by that time.)
So we'll see. For now, I'm placing my money on "Giorno's benefactor is NOT the Big Bad!" But we'll see. If he is, I'd still like to think I get to say I called it. That and ... man, I'll be disappointed if he is. For the aforementioned list of reasons. (It's otherwise a pretty cool-if-predictable plot twist! )
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Old 10-12-2018, 05:21 PM   #288
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I'm watching the episode now and saw a bit of your spoilers. So let me set you on the right track then Talon:

What is the relationship between Parts I-III?
What is the relationship between Parts IV-V? (so far)
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:36 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
What is the relationship between Parts I-III?
What is the relationship between Parts IV-V? (so far)
From what little we know so far, I would say, in one word:
I-III: Family
IV-V: Community
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:45 PM   #290
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You're on the right track, but I wouldn't say "Community" necessarily.

Rather, how were the main characters in Parts I-III related, and how are the main characters in Part IV-V related? Who don't you see around who either were or probably would have been around in the earlier three?

Episode II

Spoiler: show

I like Giorno a lot. It's early, but his personality is pretty distinct from Josuke, Joseph and Jotaro. Why I like him is he's closest to my favourite Joestar protagonist: Jonathan Joestar.

I'm in a huge minority picking Jonathan as my favourite, but he's the most underrated Joestar by a longshot because of how crude Phantom Blood was relative to the rest of the story. Jonathan was a good guy who got screwed over, his short life defined by tragedy. Yes he had a small brain but he had a big heart and he was not properly recognized both in-story and in the fan community that subsequently grew around Jojo, though he's the patriarch of the franchise.

Dio fathered Giorno by will, but he used Jonathan Joestar's body to do it. Giorno is Jonathan's son and so he shares some recognizable traits.

Namely, I'll point out that Giorno is a good guy. He didn't live an idyllic childhood: his mother was neglectful and absentee, his foster father beat him. Dio underwent similar conditions and became a monster. Giorno didn't have it quite as badly as Dio but that mentorship early in his life probably saved him from being as evil as Dio, even though Speedwagon thought Dio was born bad and a bad childhood only goes so far.

Giorno's stand is also notable because it's not offensive at all. It's like the conceptual opposite of Dio. It has basic grappling but the "offense" involves disorienting the opponent, and giving/creating life. The opposite of The World which is purely destructive. I feel like this is further evidence of Giorno's inheritance from Jonathan.

Bruno: I like that he's got morals but I preferred how cutthroat he was earlier, as that gives him more distinction from other would-be Jojo sidekicks. I agree with Talon that he doesn't have much going for him yet. I would hate for him to turn into Kakyoin, a character who is well liked on the strength of what he did and what happened to him, not because his Stand or his personality was all that impressive or remarkable.

It is my hope that the "big boss" of this arc is not a Stand user, although he'll certainly employ them as we see with Bruno.
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Last edited by Doppleganger; 10-12-2018 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:17 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
You're on the right track, but I wouldn't say "Community" necessarily.

Rather, how were the main characters in Parts I-III related, and how are the main characters in Part IV-V related? Who don't you see around who either were or probably would have been around in the earlier three?
Surely you're not going to say it's:

Spoiler: show
"Dio" for I-III and "Not Dio" for IV and V. Dio is demonstrably absent from (and unimportant to) II; and he is out-of-the-gate a part of V. So that doesn't work!

I think my answer works pretty well based on what we have seen so far. I-III is definitely about the Joestar lineage and their world-saving quest against the vampiric forces of evil. IV is about the city of Morioh while V would appear to be about the city of Naples. I'm not really sure what you're going for, but I'm not in the mood to play Guess What Teacher's Thinking when I'm actively avoiding spoilers for Part V. I'll have to ask you to keep your "correct" answer to yourself for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I like Giorno a lot. It's early, but his personality is pretty distinct from Josuke, Joseph and Jotaro. Why I like him is he's closest to my favourite Joestar protagonist: Jonathan Joestar.

I'm in a huge minority picking Jonathan as my favourite, but he's the most underrated Joestar by a longshot because of how crude Phantom Blood was relative to the rest of the story.
So, ranking protags based on what we've seen so far ... (Admittedly super, super little for Part V!)

Spoiler: show
Favorite Joestar: Joseph (in Part II specifically, which disclaimer required me to spoiler tag this) > Jonathan >>>>> Jousuke > Joutarou > Giorno

Or, put another way: 2 > 1 >>>>> 4 > 3 > 5

Jonathan is actually my 2nd favorite of the five protags I've met thus far. I agree with you that the general public doesn't give him much credit, but I feel a little wronged that you think you're all alone in this. He may not be my personal No.1, but it's frankly a toss-up between him and Joseph and on most days Joseph ekes out the victory 'cause I just simply enjoy him more. But Jonathan is a true blue hero.

I'm not a huge fan of Jousuke (4), Joutarou (3), or as of yet Giorno (5). 3 ends up doing so well thanks to its expansive cast of characters, both heroes and villains. Where Joutarou fails me, Polnareff, Avdol, Grandpa Joseph, and even Kakyouin and Ziggy more than make up for. 4 is in a similar position: Kira is a thrilling villain to watch the heroes face off against, so once he's a regularly-occurring character the story really gets off to the races. But DiU also offers us the lovable idiot Okuyasu, the yandere Yukako, an aww =(-dorable ghost in Reimi, and of course the enigmatic self-insert that is Kishibe Rohan. I think 5 is likely to go down a similar path -- already this story promises to be the tale of Giorno Giovanna & his motley crew of pirates mafiosos -- but what remains to be seen is how enjoyable Giorno himself is when standing on his own two feet. We'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Spoiler: show
Dio fathered Giorno by will, but he used Jonathan Joestar's body to do it. Giorno is Jonathan's son and so he shares some recognizable traits.
Oh, I quite agree on the shared parentage point. I already wrote about this somewhat in my post for Episode 01, but allow me to revisit it:

Spoiler: show
I fail to see how Jonathan could not be Giorno's father if Dio is going to be argued to be so. Dio may have attached his head to Jonathan's body, but at the end of the day it's Jonathan's ball sack making Jonathan's sperm with Jonathan's DNA. It shouldn't be "Giorno is Dio's son but being Jonathan's son is a stretch" -- if anything, it should be the other way around! The obvious father for Giorno is Jonathan, making him a genetic half-uncle to Joseph Joestar and half-brother to Lisa Lisa. And I feel like we do see that in several places, like:
  • his physical features (Koichi comments on this, noting Giorno's physical resemblance to Joutarou)
  • the fact that he doesn't turn out like Dio despite sharing an upbringing not too dissimilar from Dio's
    • absent mother
    • abusive father
    • urban environment
    • shitbags everywhere
    this can either be argued from the Dio side of things -- "I'm genetically just like Dio, so isn't it remarkable that I didn't turn out like him" -- or it can be argued from the Jonathan side of things -- "I grew up in similar circumstances to what Dio grew up in, so isn't it remarkable that I didn't become like him?"
I'm not sure how much I like the idea of inherited morality, i.e. that Giorno is good only because his father Jonathan Joestar was so good, but I do think there's some poeticism to it and that it can't be ignored in this particular story.

One thing you've talked about in the past, especially when we were earlier on in the franchise and I was bemoaning the death of Jonathan in Part I and the impotence of Joseph in Part III, is the idea of inherited will, and how that was a big thing in the Japanese shounen stories of the '80s. So let's revisit that topic if you like, since I think it becomes relevant here: with Giorno being Jonathan's son, he is the character most closely related to Jonathan we have ever seen, tied with daughter Lisa Lisa who we have not seen since Part II and with father George Joestar who we have not seen since Part I. More closely related than grandson Joseph who was a Ripple prodigy. More closely related than great-great-grandson Kujou Joutarou who has The Bestest Stand™ we've seen so far. And more closely related than great-grandson Higashikata Jousuke. Giorno is Jonathan's son. Does this not then mean that he is a prime candidate for our narrative look at inherited will? I should think he is!

Jonathan, I think, would never have gone along with the proposal of, "In order to root out crime from this community, I must become the crime boss myself! And to do that, I have to start from the bottom and become a peon of the criminal organization that's calling the shots!" Jonathan was so pure-hearted he would never consign to do, join, aid, or abet evil. But when we get past the point that no one can ever be as pure-hearted as Jonathan Joestar and we forgive Giorno his unorthodox(?) solution, we then have to ask: what would Jonathan make of his son's plan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Giorno's stand is also notable because:

Spoiler: show
it's not offensive at all. It's like the conceptual opposite of Dio. It has basic grappling but the "offense" involves disorienting the opponent, and giving/creating life. The opposite of The World which is purely destructive. I feel like this is further evidence of Giorno's inheritance from Jonathan.
Interesting. But I think we can say Crazy Diamond / Shining Diamond was similar to this, indeed Gold Experience / Golden Wind's predecessor. Because:

Spoiler: show
Gold Experience feels like a hybrid between pacifism and Crazy Diamond, whereas Crazy Diamond feels like a hybrid between pacifism and Star Platinum. So like:

Star Platinum: 100% ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA
Crazy Diamond: 50% ORA, 50% pacifism
Gold Experience: 25% ORA, 75% pacifism

Numbers not exact, because obviously Gold Experience (so far) feels more like it's 10% ORA and 90% pacifism. But still. A, I'd argue there is some close combative punch to the Stand despite what you've argued. And B, I'd say that it's by no means the first example of a pacifistic Stand, and that Crazy Diamond should really be taken as such (especially when taken through the lens of how Star Platinum operates). Crazy Diamond's entire schtick was "I heal or repair that which I touch." Gold Experience doesn't heal its user's enemies (and in that sense can be argued as less pacifistic), but instead operates under the premise "I mirror everything back at you; try to punch my user and find yourself punched instead." Rather than calling it a non-violent Stand, it might be more accurate to say it is pacifist in one extreme (its user takes all the blows while throwing none of his own) while more violent than Crazy Diamond in other senses (e.g. Crazy Diamond would never harm Kouichi the way that Gold Experience did when Kouichi attempted to use his Stand powers against Giorno).
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:25 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
I think my answer works pretty well based on what we have seen so far. I-III is definitely about the Joestar lineage and their world-saving quest against the vampiric forces of evil. IV is about the city of Morioh while V would appear to be about the city of Naples. I'm not really sure what you're going for, but I'm not in the mood to play Guess What Teacher's Thinking when I'm actively avoiding spoilers for Part V. I'll have to ask you to keep your "correct" answer to yourself for now.
I know very little about Part V, so be at ease. I'll let you know ahead of time if there's something I know rather than recuse myself from discussion since I'm going in otherwise blind.

I'll ask this - what do you know about Part VI? I'm asking not because what I want to talk about is not necessarily plot specific, but I want to avoid a disaster like the Dio Brando clothing thing. What I want to talk about, I believe, is going to play a role in Part V.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Jonathan is actually my 2nd favorite of the five protags I've met thus far. I agree with you that the general public doesn't give him much credit, but I feel a little wronged that you think you're all alone in this. He may not be my personal No.1, but it's frankly a toss-up between him and Joseph and on most days Joseph ekes out the victory 'cause I just simply enjoy him more. But Jonathan is a true blue hero.

I'm not a huge fan of Jousuke (4), Joutarou (3), or as of yet Giorno (5). 3 ends up doing so well thanks to its expansive cast of characters, both heroes and villains. Where Joutarou fails me, Polnareff, Avdol, Grandpa Joseph, and even Kakyouin and Ziggy more than make up for. 4 is in a similar position: Kira is a thrilling villain to watch the heroes face off against, so once he's a regularly-occurring character the story really gets off to the races. But DiU also offers us the lovable idiot Okuyasu, the yandere Yukako, an aww =(-dorable ghost in Reimi, and of course the enigmatic self-insert that is Kishibe Rohan. I think 5 is likely to go down a similar path -- already this story promises to be the tale of Giorno Giovanna & his motley crew of pirates mafiosos -- but what remains to be seen is how enjoyable Giorno himself is when standing on his own two feet. We'll see.
Nice. It's been two series since I last checked up on this, so I wasn't sure how your opinion had shifted. I'd say the fandom at large rank 'em like this:

Jotaro > Joseph = Josuke > Giorno > Jonathan

Jonathan & Joseph got shafted in the English community early on due to no scanslations existing for Phantom Blood or Battle Tendency. Stardust Crusaders had scanslations and then got a localized release, and the OVA focused on Jotaro and came out relatively close to the 1980's when Kenshiro clones like Jotaro were at their most popular.

While the anime has served to boost the popularity of Jonathan and Joseph, Joseph got the biggest boost since he appeared in three series in different roles. Jonathan, of course, didn't make it out of Phantom Blood and the anime didn't alter Araki's writing at all.

Josuke...I think of Stardust Crusaders and Diamond is Unbreakable were released at the same time, or had the same level of exposure, Josuke would have taken the reigns because attitude-wise he's similar to Jotaro but with a personality closer to Joseph. But while Phantom Blood/Battle Tendency had no scanslations, the best we had for DiU was duwang. Not necessarily better than nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Oh, I quite agree on the shared parentage point. I already wrote about this somewhat in my post for Episode 01, but allow me to revisit it:

I fail to see how Jonathan could not be Giorno's father if Dio is going to be argued to be so. Dio may have attached his head to Jonathan's body, but at the end of the day it's Jonathan's ball sack making Jonathan's sperm with Jonathan's DNA. It shouldn't be "Giorno is Dio's son but being Jonathan's son is a stretch" -- if anything, it should be the other way around! The obvious father for Giorno is Jonathan, making him a genetic half-uncle to Joseph Joestar and half-brother to Lisa Lisa. And I feel like we do see that in several places, like:
  • his physical features (Koichi comments on this, noting Giorno's physical resemblance to Joutarou)
  • the fact that he doesn't turn out like Dio despite sharing an upbringing not too dissimilar from Dio's
    • absent mother
    • abusive father
    • urban environment
    • shitbags everywhere
    this can either be argued from the Dio side of things -- "I'm genetically just like Dio, so isn't it remarkable that I didn't turn out like him" -- or it can be argued from the Jonathan side of things -- "I grew up in similar circumstances to what Dio grew up in, so isn't it remarkable that I didn't become like him?"
I'm not sure how much I like the idea of inherited morality, i.e. that Giorno is good only because his father Jonathan Joestar was so good, but I do think there's some poeticism to it and that it can't be ignored in this particular story.

One thing you've talked about in the past, especially when we were earlier on in the franchise and I was bemoaning the death of Jonathan in Part I and the impotence of Joseph in Part III, is the idea of inherited will, and how that was a big thing in the Japanese shounen stories of the '80s. So let's revisit that topic if you like, since I think it becomes relevant here: with Giorno being Jonathan's son, he is the character most closely related to Jonathan we have ever seen, tied with daughter Lisa Lisa who we have not seen since Part II and with father George Joestar who we have not seen since Part I. More closely related than grandson Joseph who was a Ripple prodigy. More closely related than great-great-grandson Kujou Joutarou who has The Bestest Stand™ we've seen so far. And more closely related than great-grandson Higashikata Jousuke. Giorno is Jonathan's son. Does this not then mean that he is a prime candidate for our narrative look at inherited will? I should think he is!
I'm going to hold off on this until you address the first thing I talked about in this post. Because if you know anything about Part VI, I can safely discuss the "relationship" between them as it were.

Part I-III were definitely an inherited will story, linked by Dio's curse. Joseph Joestar was affected by this even though Dio didn't appear in the story:

-one of Dio's minions killed George Joestar II
-Straights was seduced by Dio's vampiric power
-Joseph spent a great deal of his adult life trying to locate Dio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Jonathan, I think, would never have gone along with the proposal of, "In order to root out crime from this community, I must become the crime boss myself! And to do that, I have to start from the bottom and become a peon of the criminal organization that's calling the shots!" Jonathan was so pure-hearted he would never consign to do, join, aid, or abet evil. But when we get past the point that no one can ever be as pure-hearted as Jonathan Joestar and we forgive Giorno his unorthodox(?) solution, we then have to ask: what would Jonathan make of his son's plan?
There's no way Jonathan would have approved of this, but we didn't get the opportunity to see him challenged by morally gray behaviour. He would be very upset by a world like Giorno's with all the poverty and drug use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Interesting. But I think we can say Crazy Diamond / Shining Diamond was similar to this, indeed Gold Experience / Golden Wind's predecessor. Because:

Spoiler: show
Gold Experience feels like a hybrid between pacifism and Crazy Diamond, whereas Crazy Diamond feels like a hybrid between pacifism and Star Platinum. So like:

Star Platinum: 100% ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA
Crazy Diamond: 50% ORA, 50% pacifism
Gold Experience: 25% ORA, 75% pacifism

Numbers not exact, because obviously Gold Experience (so far) feels more like it's 10% ORA and 90% pacifism. But still. A, I'd argue there is some close combative punch to the Stand despite what you've argued. And B, I'd say that it's by no means the first example of a pacifistic Stand, and that Crazy Diamond should really be taken as such (especially when taken through the lens of how Star Platinum operates). Crazy Diamond's entire schtick was "I heal or repair that which I touch." Gold Experience doesn't heal its user's enemies (and in that sense can be argued as less pacifistic), but instead operates under the premise "I mirror everything back at you; try to punch my user and find yourself punched instead." Rather than calling it a non-violent Stand, it might be more accurate to say it is pacifist in one extreme (its user takes all the blows while throwing none of his own) while more violent than Crazy Diamond in other senses (e.g. Crazy Diamond would never harm Kouichi the way that Gold Experience did when Kouichi attempted to use his Stand powers against Giorno).
Any of the humanoid stands, I think, can fight in melee, even weak or ranged stands like Hierophant Green or Magician's Red. It's telling to me that Bruno comments on Gold Experience's weak punch - when characters have dialogue committed to highlighting something like this, we should take it as fact, since it's the author speaking through the character.

In the Episode 02 battle, Gold Experience punches Bruno several times, but he recovers enough to run away from the battle, and continue fighting. If this were Star Platinum or Crazy Diamond we're looking at either a 1HKO or a barrage of fists leading to a KO. I have no reason to believe Giorno was willing to spare Bruno until the end of the episode, with all that "kill or be killed" dialogue they shared on the train.

I may have mentioned this comparison before - in Stardust Crusaders, Jotaro was the overpowered boss with a wall of stats that Dio's minions had to come up with creative ideas to defeat. Attack his friends, trick him, trap him, anything to avoid a one-on-one with Star Platinum itself.

Even though Kira had a powerful and deceitful, mulch-faceted Stand, Crazy Diamond's ridiculous physical prowess still forced him into hiding for the most part, to avoid a direct confrontation.

My hope for Part V is that, if Gold Experience really is a support or passive first Stand, Giorno's role will be more of a manager than a front line fighter. One of the things I loathe in shounen is where fights "pair off" with similar strength opponents. One Piece is pretty notorious for this as it happens in every fight. There are very few mismatches.

Jojo has largely avoided this, the closest we came was toward the end of Part III where Dio and Vanilla Ice fought the cast in his mansion. But if it happens in Part V I won't welcome it.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:45 PM   #293
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The -ultimate- trolling would be Araki's social media accounts being blown out with people posing in Naples having a safe and fun time, topped off with the side-ways peace sign.
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