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Old 02-05-2017, 01:54 PM   #3551
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The US has done a pretty good job on keeping a lid on automatic weapons. I wonder how they did that, since it does provide some successful precedent for a country-wide firearm ban.

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Why? The idea that not all rights are equal and the idea that not all lives are equal seem entirely unrelated to me. I don't see what one has to do with the other. I'd personally consider the former obvious and the latter nonsense, tbh.

(Apologies for the double post, on my phone).
If rights are unequal, is it that much of a stretch to consider right holders unequal?

Let's put it this way. You're a special forces operative and have the choice to save one of two people prisoner after the fall of a military junta (effectively saving their lives): a random black man, or the leader of the military junta. Who do you pick?

Technically speaking, both lives matter. But the military junta leader has rights and privileges associated with his position that exceed that of an ordinary person. You could argue that status has rights associated with it, even though I would rather kill the junta leader who probably committed many atrocities in his capacity as dictator.

Also consider that before the enlightenment and the conceptualization of Natural Rights, rights were a subject of class status, i.e. you needed to be a citizen of a certain country to be entitled to citizen-defined rights in that country. If you weren't a citizen anything goes. Not every country recognizes Natural Rights, and the US didn't take any chances and codified them into an actual Bill of Rights, yet here we are arguing against one of those "natural rights" (the right to bear arms).
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:26 PM   #3552
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If rights are unequal, is it that much of a stretch to consider right holders unequal?
Yes, of course it is. There's no correlation there whatsoever. Everyone has the same natural rights, and therefore everyone is equal in that regard. A right to life is more important than a free press, but that can only even be stretched into making people unequal if you assume the people you talk about don't have both (spoilers: they do). Even if they didn't, that would be a massive stretch that I think moves into irrationality. By your own logic, people outside of the US are currently lesser than people in it because they don't have the codified bill of rights we have, and that's flatly absurd.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:49 PM   #3553
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If rights are unequal, is it that much of a stretch to consider right holders unequal?
Yes? Like I said, the two seem to me to have nothing whatsoever to do with one another.

The rest of your argument seems to rely on the motion that status and rights are in some way correlated; this is an idea that has held sway for large parts of history (and indeed in parts of the modern world), but so is the idea that the sun goes round the earth drawn by a god in a chariot. Both strike me as equally absurd. In fact it strikes me that that idea undermines the very notion of human rights in the first place.

For your thought experiment; tbh I'm kind of a deck so I'd probably save whoever I liked most. Nothing to do with then being unequal as rights holders because they obviously aren't.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:48 PM   #3554
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By your own logic, people outside of the US are currently lesser than people in it because they don't have the codified bill of rights we have, and that's flatly absurd.
You've misunderstood my point. The US was founded on the idea that natural rights are true and universal, but still went ahead and codified them into amendments just to be on the safe side. But the basic idea is that they're rights that are protected for all humans within the jurisdiction of the US...including allowing non-citizens the right to bear arms.

That said, as a healthcare worker, it's hard for me to accept that a single right to life is a free pass to infringe on the rights of other people. Especially when you consider that such a right can compete with other people with a right to life (as in my example), creating a tier whether you want it or not. I have seen many examples of blatant abuses of that right.

Finally, I'm also of the view that a right to life isn't nearly as valuable as the right to a quality life. Being a orphan in this area, which is the norm, is a guaranteed life of emotional distance, drugs and violence. Being an elder is one of constant emotional distress and pain. I would rather see children be aborted that enter this life, as their only value to the community is in the form of the population count. And there is no hope for the old folks either.

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In fact it strikes me that that idea undermines the very notion of human rights in the first place.
It's the opposite. What I outlined is the common sense of history, you could cynically say inequality is an inherently human idea. The concept of human rights by comparison is new and probably offensive to the majority of the rich world even today. How it took root in the US was a group of special rich people managed to enlist the support of the disenfranchised.
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:28 PM   #3555
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Your example doesn't mean anything though because you make a bogus assumption; the assumption that when two possibilities compete, one has to be better than the other. I disagree. Both decisions in your little thought experiment are exactly as justifiable as each other, because those two peoples rights and their importance as rights holders are exactly equal. Just because their rights compete and fulfilling them both is impossible does not mean one has option has to be morally better than the other, it means there is no morally superior solution to that problem. This is the real world; dilemmas where all the options are morally shitty are the rule rather than the exception.

Your morality hits the same issue incidentally; if you have two options both of which violate the exact same quantity of rights - what you claim to be the only metric that matters - do you a) break the tie with some other metric, breaking your own rule or b) accept that both options are morally equal and that the fact that the two options are competing does not force you to rank one as more important than the other, and allow us to do the same?
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:06 PM   #3556
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Both decisions in your little thought experiment are exactly as justifiable as each other, because those two peoples rights and their importance as rights holders are exactly equal.
It's easy to find refuge in an uncomfortable moral decision in seeking relief through theory. Theoretically, there's no difference between these two men, stripped naked you might not be able to even tell them apart. But in the real world, you have to make a call on one of them, and my scenario specifically dictates zero-sum, so one gets to live and one has to die. Whether your make a normative judgment based on status, with a calculated net benefit for your country, or a moral judgment for your own spiritual satisfaction, one of these guys is getting his rights violated for circumstances beyond his control.

I do believe status and rights are correlated, but there's no intrinsic weighted difference of rights. People aren't born into status, rights are conferred by nature onto humans. But within context of our world, inequality leads to discrimination when it comes to execution of those rights. Nature itself often results in situations where there's mutual exclusivity, think of two castaways on a boat in a situation that devolves into cannibalism.

But, there's no point in arguing whether rights are theoretically equal, because they've never been treated such in history, and never will be.

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Just because their rights compete and fulfilling them both is impossible does not mean one has option has to be morally better than the other, it means there is no morally superior solution to that problem. This is the real world; dilemmas where all the options are morally shitty are the rule rather than the exception.
I believe taking the lesser of two evils is a morally superior solution. If you made the best decision possible, why should you ever feel remorse or regret?

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Your morality hits the same issue incidentally; if you have two options both of which violate the exact same quantity of rights - what you claim to be the only metric that matters - do you a) break the tie with some other metric, breaking your own rule or b) accept that both options are morally equal and that the fact that the two options are competing does not force you to rank one as more important than the other, and allow us to do the same?
If the quantity of rights is the same, I am totally indifferent as to what way the decision falls, and if I have to make a decision I'd use a arbitrary metric to make the decision.

Luckily, I think you really have to stretch my philosophy to find a situation where an equal number of "petty" rights are tiered against an equal number of "heavy" ones. It wouldn't happen empirically so I would be able to run away from having to make a decision like that in the real world.
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Old 02-06-2017, 01:49 AM   #3557
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"If something happens, blame the court system."

I believe we've seen this before.
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Old 02-06-2017, 07:34 AM   #3558
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It's easy to find refuge in an uncomfortable moral decision in seeking relief through theory. Theoretically, there's no difference between these two men, stripped naked you might not be able to even tell them apart. But in the real world, you have to make a call on one of them, and my scenario specifically dictates zero-sum, so one gets to live and one has to die. Whether your make a normative judgment based on status, with a calculated net benefit for your country, or a moral judgment for your own spiritual satisfaction, one of these guys is getting his rights violated for circumstances beyond his control.
The fact that one of them ends up getting screwed over doesn't in any way mean they were unequal as people, it means that whichever one ends up getting screwed over its unfair at best and not really morally defensible. That's my point; just because two outcomes are mutually exclusive does not mean one is the lesser of two evils or morally superior or whatever. It means that - as you yourself said - the choice would be arbitrary. A coin flip is as good a method as any for making that decision. Would you not have to do the same? After all it's an equal quantity of rights - one persons right to life vs anothers, - either way.

Again, I'd emphasise that the idea that all people have equal rights regardless of status etc and their rights are equally important (even if the rights themselves are not) is a fundamental cornerstone of human rights - without it the entire edifice collapses because what are supposed to be fundamental rights become subject to the arbitrary whims of culture. Either we believe in the equality of people having rights, or we don't believe in fundamental rights at all imo. For all those cultures in history that tied rights to status, they can't be said to have had the idea of fundamental rights in any meaningful way.

On the specific topic of gun control; there is no legitimate reason to own a handgun or assault weapon (stuff like hunting rifles and shotguns are a slightly different question, and indeed are not illegal in the UK) and damn straight I'd take away a hundred peoples guns to save one person from being killed against their will. In an ideal world it'd be easy to enjoy both rights. Sadly the insane levels of gun homicide in the US make it clear that you can't have both. I still find it ridiculous how crazy the US has gone stripping rights to combat terrorism when three times as many Americans are killed by a gun every year than have been killed by Islamic terrorists since (and including) 9/11.
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:08 PM   #3559
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

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Any negative polls are fake news, just like the CNN, ABC, NBC polls in the election. Sorry, people want border security and extreme vetting.
Trump supporters, please, try to defend this. By all means.
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:25 PM   #3560
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It's Trump's narcissism, which is almost a comedy routine at this point.

Polls are mixed. I will admit that the loudest voices have been anti-Trump, but "loud" is not "majority". Those who voted for Trump, that I've spoken to, have approved of his policies. I have approved of his meme-killing the TPP, and don't care/don't like the other stuff.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:47 PM   #3561
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2017: the year of the buzzword.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:56 PM   #3562
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Trump doesn't understand what Fake News actually means. He seems to think that Fake News is when the news is wrong in general, rather than deliberately and maliciously wrong.

Or maybe he legitimately thinks that those news sources are being deliberately and maliciously wrong. It's not that hard of a conclusion to draw for the specific question at hand.

He compares those polls to ones published in the election - we all know by now that Americans are a divided nation and that a CNN poll is usually going to accurately reflect what 36000 random citizens (from California) think about Trump's policy.

Polling is unreliable right now simply due to demographics (we all saw the bubbles), and I think it's irresponsible for these news stations to be polling so heavily at this time. Would I agree with Trump that the media is maliciously and deliberately polling to mislead the public? In part. I think it's deliberate, but not malicious. I think that the media legitimately thinks that its polls are the truth, and that a lot of confirmation bias goes into these polls. (see: the election)

I don't personally agree that Trump is narcissistic. I think it's part of his brand. Trump is all about confusion, blending brilliant moves with outright stupidity, and for him to brag about something or defend "his ego" is probably just a nice little facade to let him excuse anything he's previously said as "blowharding." People are okay with a blowhard, they're okay with an idiot, they love an exaggerator, but they cannot STAND a liar. And that is a major reason that we saw such a big voter discrepancy - liberals consider Trump a liar, conservatives consider Hillary a liar.

That's my thoughts as someone who, I must remind you, does not have any eggs in the Trump basket. I am not praising him for this tweet. I think he's gotten a bit too comfortable with the "I won" mentality and is allowing himself to make bad decisions that he thinks won't matter.
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:07 PM   #3563
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I'd like more evidence that Trump is legitimately putting on an act and isn't actually easily ego-bruised.

When you write such a character for a drama or anime, there's always some hints the clever audience can pick up to tell that the character is putting on an act. I've yet to hear anything out of Trump's show that says such, we've mostly inferred that it's an act based on similar circumstances and hopeful optimism that someone so easily offended didn't make it as far as the presidency.

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Polling is unreliable right now simply due to demographics (we all saw the bubbles), and I think it's irresponsible for these news stations to be polling so heavily at this time. Would I agree with Trump that the media is maliciously and deliberately polling to mislead the public? In part. I think it's deliberate, but not malicious. I think that the media legitimately thinks that its polls are the truth, and that a lot of confirmation bias goes into these polls. (see: the election)
Trump and other Boomers grew up in the era of the Big 3. Gen X and Millennials only know Cable News. Trump doesn't have to convince Boomers that cable TV is un-trusworthy; the only people who would believe it are those intoxicated by the like-minded. His challenge is convincing Millennials and Gen X to not pay attention to them, and listen to him instead.

If cable news is saying the exact opposite of what you are going through (i.e., Rust Belters seeing jobs lost but CNN quoting Obama claiming he created jobs), you are going to be distrustful. Right now, the media is so saturated with loud anti-Trump rhetoric, it's more or less playing into his hand to get people distrustful of the media.

It's a bit ironic, but I think when history looks back on this election, Trump's anti-establishment position, successfully parlayed by Clinton and Obama before him, was probably second to his anti-media campaign. The media got him elected in spite of itself because Trump manipulated its core nature, in the same way you could manipulate a hungry animal to do tricks.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:18 AM   #3564
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I like this read, I stumbled on it while searching for Fullmetal Jacket stuff.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:02 PM   #3565
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I'm watching the Betsy DeVos livestream...

Why the hell does the Senate have a prayer at noon? Why do they have a Senate chaplain!?

WHAT the hell? Not all Senators are even Christian!

What the hell is this? Where's the separation of church and state?
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:19 PM   #3566
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Common practice in NI too deo. It's absurd.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:20 PM   #3567
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I'm watching the Betsy DeVos livestream...

Why the hell does the Senate have a prayer at noon? Why do they have a Senate chaplain!?

WHAT the hell? Not all Senators are even Christian!

What the hell is this? Where's the separation of church and state?

Somewhere before the cold war.
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Shouldn’t the Hoff be doing something if he’s still around? I have strict rules about leaving the pool, and I’m sure vanishing the pool out of existence breaks those rules in some way :P
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:26 PM   #3568
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Breaking: Inexperienced rich woman with no educational background becomes Secretary of Education after her family pays hundreds of thousands to senators for their votes
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Old 02-07-2017, 04:11 PM   #3569
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#draintheswamp m I rite

Also your daily reminder that education is not important.
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Old 02-07-2017, 05:03 PM   #3570
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Of course education isn't important Trump thrives off of the votes of the poorly educated.
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Old 02-08-2017, 10:41 AM   #3571
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It's starting to feel like the republicans just want control of the government, consequences of whoever they put in office be damned. I don't think that impeachment is coming.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:04 AM   #3572
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I'd like more evidence that Trump is legitimately putting on an act and isn't actually easily ego-bruised.

When you write such a character for a drama or anime, there's always some hints the clever audience can pick up to tell that the character is putting on an act. I've yet to hear anything out of Trump's show that says such, we've mostly inferred that it's an act based on similar circumstances and hopeful optimism that someone so easily offended didn't make it as far as the presidency.


Let's start by carefully establishing the boundaries between anime and real life. And yes, I'm being serious here.

In animes and dramas, the audience receives third-person omniscient perspective. Real life uses third-person limited. We don't know what Trump talks about with his cabinet, except for what he reveals to us in public. Which we can choose to accept if we believe it is accurate.

Not only that, but in dramas and animes, any information you receive is usually firsthand. We on UPN get our information third- or fourth-hand. Trump says it, someone writes it down, someone else rants about it on Reddit or 4Chan later, then we discuss it on UPN. With that many filters, it's impossible for the correctly relevant information to appear in your anime. Imagine you're watching Puella Madoka Magica but someone who was standing nearby told me the full story and now I'm relaying the events to you in a Skype call with an occasionally spotty connection.

So that's why it's ridiculous to say "But Trump hasn't left any clues for the sugoi desu ne ~very clever~ audience to figure out his secret machinations, so I don't even know if he has any!" Because a.) it's ridiculous to assume that he would leave any clues, ESPECIALLY since we're trying to figure out if he is secretly not an egomaniac (and thus does not care if the public knows), and b.) Even if you did have a trail of clues, they're disorganized and disassembled, and lots of them are missing because some people along the line didn't consider them important. Also, you don't usually read the clues yourself, you're usually having people tell you about the clues from what they remember from hearing about them from someplace else.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Trump is not an idiot. Even reading his Twitter feed, the source of most of the idiocy claims, doesn't give me that impression. And I think his "egomania" and "narcissism" are probably played up a lot more by the press than by Trump. He has this happy little accident of being a smart guy and being seen as an idiot, and he's more than happy to play into it in order to keep his brand rolling and make decisions that he sees as best for his company/country.

Think of it more as Guy Fieri than Kyuubey. Guy Fieri is not using his weird hair and voice and appearance and obsession with food to further any kind of neo-Nazi agenda any more than Trump is. But with a little clever business sense and some great branding, he ends up wildly successful and internationally known. Trump's probably a little smarter and more ambitious than Fieri, though, because Fieri just rolls around eating food and Trump is now the President.*

*In some timelines, Guy Fieri becomes the third and final Anti-Christ during a dual Juggalo presidency, presiding over death camps and personally overseeing the deaths of 5 billion people. No human being was responsible for more death and suffering.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:16 AM   #3573
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Shuckle, speeches are narratives crafted by writers in the same way a script is. In fact, they're literally a script you don't have to memorize. And Trump's decisions, while originating from him and receiving his final stamp, are also processed by his staff before they got into effect.

What you purport as real-life isn't really real-life. It's a presentation, a show.
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Old 02-08-2017, 09:22 PM   #3574
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Republicans Vote To Silence Sen. Elizabeth Warren In Confirmation Debate

It's like the GOP wants Secession, Part II -- damn the geopolitical obstacles.
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Old 02-08-2017, 09:37 PM   #3575
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Shuckle, speeches are narratives crafted by writers in the same way a script is. In fact, they're literally a script you don't have to memorize. And Trump's decisions, while originating from him and receiving his final stamp, are also processed by his staff before they got into effect.

What you purport as real-life isn't really real-life. It's a presentation, a show.
Do writers personally believe the things their characters say?
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