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Old 07-13-2013, 09:15 PM   #1
deoxys
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George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty

Debate it here. If you want.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:20 PM   #2
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Someone explain to me what this is and why it matters, please.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:22 PM   #3
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For Amras:

this is a murder case in Florida, where a neighborhood watchman shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old kid after a fight/altercation, was night outside, no one really knows the situation except the survivor.. This case is significant for a few reasons. 1, it showed the problems of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law, which is pretty much a way to be able to claim self defense if you are threatened. 2. The case gained more concern after the shooter (George Zimmerman) wasn't held, arrested or even the case wasn't considered a crime for a month and a half afterwards. 3, it's partially a race issue- the kid who died (Trayvon Martin) is black, was unarmed, was allowed to be in the neighborhood (he had a parent living there), and was unarmed, Zimmerman is Hispanic/White, some of the comments during the investigation appear racist, etc. The main thing is that even though Martin did nothing wrong/was unarmed, and it appeared that Zimmerman started the conflict, Zimmerman was acquitted of all charges.

_______
My opinion


I haven't posted in a while, but I think the ruling is wrong. Yes, I know that the decision is final and a trial happened, etc. But that doesn't make the decision right. I'm biased, but I feel that Zimmerman was guilty because he did not follow the orders given by the dispatcher/911 caller, and he started the fight. If he hadn't gotten out of the car, no one's dead and Zimmerman gets to live his life without the knowledge that he's a murderer. In all, the state could have done better to get the prosecution, and I'm incredibly disappointed, but I mean there's nothing that can be changed.

At the same time, I feel that no one, not even Zimmerman wins in this situation because at least if he was convicted, there's some safety, even a small amount in prison, (solitary confinement, etc.) but now he's effectively doomed himself to a life of hiding because of the notoriety. I don't think it's ok that a 17 year old of any race died. I don't think you should be allowed to call out for self defense in the world where you follow someone and cause an altercation. It doesn't make sense to me at any point that if you are a grown adult in a fight against a 17 year old, you ever get the idea to shoot him, or why you follow him because he's "suspicious". I don't understand a lot of things, that I feel that the prosecution could have won if they had taken the time to use in a trial. At the same time, until the jury made its verdict, I thought there was some risk that there would be an acquittal, or a not guilty verdict, but I thought that there was enough evidence, or just common sense that would have convicted Zimmerman. I could see that the state wasn't using all of its potential angles, but I thought that the attempt to prove Zimmerman's story to be false and that he was a liar was good. I don't think that they were as strong at proving that Zimmerman was responsible, though he was. The defense did what they needed to do. I don't believe much of it, but they did their job. I'm watching the news conference afterwards, and it's still pretty apparent how disappointed that everyone, except the defense lawyers appear to be with this decision.

On a personal level, as a black man in America, this decision concerns me a lot. I think that this has caused a lot of problems that has proven, once and for all that racism exists, that the justice system doesn't work for me and others. I'm actually a little terrified because this decision makes it appear that black people aren't thought of as a group that deserves protection, or justice. THis could be seen as hyperbole, but it's not. there are times when racism, or harassment from security figures makes you feel less than a human being. You notice it when your parents tell you how to act around police officers or cops, how it's so important to not act crazy in public. It's not normal when you look around at a small store, and the person at the counter wants you to empty your pockets before you leave the store, it's not cool when you feel unwanted. In this case, given all of the evidence, I feel that this same feeling is spreading to all of the African American population in the United States because of this case. I don't expect violence, and would hope it never occurs because it would just give ammunition to those individuals who are racist. At the same time, with all of the evidence and circumstances in this case, and the decision that resulted... I don't feel comfortable with the justice system in the United States at the moment. Furthermore, it still seems that the second largest theme in this case, besides the fact that a kid was murdered, is the race factor, no matter how much all people involved try to say otherwise.


TL;DR version

I didn't have faith in a Zimmerman conviction even before the verdict was announced, was hoping for justice to be seen but that verdict is fucking stupid, but typical of America. Or at the very least, compared to Casey Anthony, Zimmerman's GUILTY AS FUCK.
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Last edited by Firewater; 07-13-2013 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:26 PM   #4
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tldr - guy feels threatened by a kid named trayvon martin, calls the police. they tell him to stay away from him and keep to himself. he ignored and instead follows the kid. the kid attacks him, throws punches and stuff. george pulls out a gun and shoots him in defense. winds up killing him.


I'm not gonna state my opinion just yet, if at all, but I wish people would stop making this about race and just look at what happened between two people and why both of them made bad decisions that created a terrible situation that never needed to happen.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:30 PM   #5
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Yeah sounds like they both fucked up in that situation. Based solely on your description deo it sounds like Zimmerman should have been found guilty for something at least.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:33 PM   #6
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The correct decision was made. The evidence was too circumstantial for anything at all. America's legal system works on the basis that it doesn't matter if 99 guilty people go free, no innocent person should ever have the chance of going into jail. Based on that, Zimmerman wasn't guilty of any crime. Just being a complete asshole and an idiot.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
tldr - guy feels threatened by a kid named trayvon martin, calls the police. they tell him to stay away from him and keep to himself. he ignored and instead follows the kid. the kid attacks him, throws punches and stuff. george pulls out a gun and shoots him in defense. winds up killing him.


I'm not gonna state my opinion just yet, if at all, but I wish people would stop making this about race and just look at what happened between two people and why both of them made bad decisions that created a terrible situation that never needed to happen.
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Yeah sounds like they both fucked up in that situation. Based solely on your description deo it sounds like Zimmerman should have been found guilty for something at least.

I get what you all are saying, but this is at least partially a race issue. What did Martin do wrong? He was a resident of the area since his parents lived there, he even contacted other people about Zimmerman following him, and it looked and sounded like Zimmerman started the conflict by following Martin for a rather long distance afterwards. And even then, why shouldn't Martin have been able to defend himself? Why was Zimmerman so inept that he had to shoot a kid he was stronger than and larger than? What would have happened had the roles been reversed? Those are all important facts to think about because I don't think Martin did anything wrong. Besides, if you think someone's following you, why would you try and fight them or confront them anyway?
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firewater View Post
Why was Zimmerman so inept that he had to shoot a kid he was stronger than and larger than?
Are you crazy? If this is your sole argument about why Zimmerman shouldn't have had to defend himself then I know plenty of 5'5 guys who know karate and would be willing to teach you how. I mean, seriously. This isn't MMA.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
Are you crazy? If this is your sole argument about why Zimmerman shouldn't have had to defend himself then I know plenty of 5'5 guys who know karate and would be willing to teach you how. I mean, seriously. This isn't MMA.
This is not my sole argument. If you watched the trial, apparently Zimmerman had taken MMA lessons of his own. I'm not saying Zimmerman can't defend himself, I just have 2 exceptions to this case.

1. you don't get to follow someone for being "suspicious", and you shouldn't follow someone when the proper authorities tell you not to.

2. your concern still doesn't answer my main concern. Why does a grown adult need to pull out their gun to stop a kid, or even more why did he shoot to kill, or even shoot Martin at all- there are other ways to stop a fight that aren't nearly as violent.

3. I'm sorry but looking at Zimmerman he doesn't look so weak/small that he couldn't find some other way to restrain a kid who was smaller than him than shooting him. THere would be a difference if Martin had pulled a knife or some sort of weapon, but none of the pictures shown this entire time, or any testimony from either side proves that Martin did or had anything that would have put Zimmerman at risk.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:49 PM   #10
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There was not enough evidence to 100% convict Zimmerman of breaking any actual laws. Therefore, he was acquitted, as he should have been.

What we should take from this trial is:

A. The Stand Your Ground law is bullshit

B. Racism really came into play /after/ the murder, with how the media responded (or didn't respond) to it (although i def believe Zimmerman pursued Trayvon due to racial prejudice)

C. If the roles were reversed, you can bet things would be completely different
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:51 PM   #11
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FW:

1. That's not a crime, since it didn't amount to stalking. And it raises the question of why didn't Martin call the cops instead of attacking Zimmerman?

2. Because a gun is pulled any time you think your life might be in danger and in a heated fight that can be anything from him putting a hand in his coat pocket to picking up a brick.

3. You're an idiot if you honestly think there was no way Martin could've gotten the advantage in that fight.


BTW, I don't think the Stand your Ground law is bullshit, I think if someone escalates anything to attacking you, you have the right.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:52 PM   #12
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Rangeet stop trolling.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
FW:

1. That's not a crime, since it didn't amount to stalking. And it raises the question of why didn't Martin call the cops instead of attacking Zimmerman?
Probably because he was a young black male.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Copygoo View Post
There was not enough evidence to 100% convict Zimmerman of breaking any actual laws. Therefore, he was acquitted, as he should have been.

What we should take from this trial is:

A. The Stand Your Ground law is bullshit

B. Racism really came into play /after/ the murder, with how the media responded (or didn't respond) to it (although i def believe Zimmerman pursued Trayvon due to racial prejudice)

C. If the roles were reversed, you can bet things would be completely different
Agree on all three points, at the same time, I think there was enough evidence, but the state didn't explain it/use that info well enough.

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Rangeet stop trolling.
Pretty much this, I know or think you're trying to be devil's advocate...but you're going about this in the worst possible way
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:55 PM   #15
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Stating your opinion in a debate forum is not trolling, MG.

He's just being Rangeet in the way he does it -_-
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:59 PM   #16
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The reason I think that Rangeet is trolling is because the part of the case that he's focusing on is literally the part that makes the least sense in any part of Zimmerman's defense.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:00 PM   #17
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Stating your opinion in a debate forum is not trolling, MG.

He's just being Rangeet in the way he does it -_-
I was more referring to the ad hominem personal attacks. And assaults on Lady Reason.

Believe me deo, I am the last person to want Rangeet to shut up just because I disagree with his opinion.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:04 PM   #18
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This was pretty much a no-win situation from the moment it happened. No matter what the verdict would have been, it would have sucked for one fight or another. An acquittal feels like a smack in the face of logical reasoning while a conviction would've felt like a smack in the face of upholding the law.

I think that this case illustrates that pretty much all of the stand-your-ground laws that we have in this country should at the very least be rewritten to put in some obvious clauses that would separate out legitimate stand-your-ground scenarios from illegitimate ones.

I don't agree with Firewater's fixation on Martin's age though. Being an older teenage boy is plenty old enough to already be a danger to people's lives. Most gang members are in their teens or twenties. (Only 13% of gang members in the mid-1990s were over 24 years old!) I'm not saying that Martin was a gang member or that anything we know about him would suggest that he would have threatened Zimmerman's life. I'm just saying that I think your fixation on Martin's age is inappropriate. I don't think his age is good evidence of his innocence. If anything, if you wanted to go off of gang demographics, it'd be more damning that he was 17, not less damning. So you should probably drop that line of reasoning. "He was just a boy, therefore he couldn't possibly have threatened a grown man" isn't really a firm foundation. "He was just a lean boy with no weapons on him and no history of physical violence" is a much better foundation for your argument.

Quoting CNN:

Quote:
To convict Zimmerman of manslaughter, the jurors would have had to believe that he "intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of Trayvon Martin." That charge could have carried a sentence of up to 30 years in prison, though the jury was not told of that possible sentence.

For second-degree murder, the jurors would have had to believe that Martin's unlawful killing was "done from ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent" and would be "of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life."

Ultimately, they believed neither. And that means Zimmerman can walk free.
I do think it's pretty strange that they didn't find him guilty of manslaughter, given that he clearly intentionally committed acts (including intentionally pulling the trigger!) that ended Trayvon Martin's life ... but at the same time, maybe the jury felt squeamish about finding him guilty of manslaughter when that hadn't even been a formal charge against Zimmerman until this very Thursday:

Quote:
Earlier in the day, jurors asked the court for clarification on its instructions regarding manslaughter. Such a query couldn't even have been posed a few days ago: Judge Debra Nelson ruled Thursday, over the defense's vehement objection, to include manslaughter as an option for jurors, in addition to a second-degree murder charge.
The original charge was second-degree murder. The manslaughter charge only just showed up a couple of days ago out of the blue. I'm sure there's a story behind all of this: behind why it didn't show up initially, why it did finally show up Thursday, and why the jury still didn't feel comfortable going for it once it was presented before them.

But yeah, if you read the requirements for second-degree murder, there's just no way that the prosecution could have proven this. All of the supposition about Zimmerman's intentions is pure speculation. Obviously it makes sense, given the picture, but it's still just speculation. We don't convict people of second-degree murder based on mere speculation. The prosecution would've had to have shown evidence that Zimmerman didn't value all human lives equally, something which would have been very tough for them to do given his history. They would've had to have shown that he killed Martin not from terror but out of an evil malice within his heart, a dark desire to snuff out another's life. They couldn't do anything like this, given the crime scene and the defendant's record, so the second-degree murder charge was pretty much dead in the water. I think that's why they must have pushed so hard for the manslaughter charge. Because they knew that they couldn't get the murder conviction.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:05 PM   #19
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It's also the point you seemed intent on bringing on.

The fact remains that there was no evidence against him. If you have to face the facts simply, it's that Zimmerman, perhaps being racist, perhaps being a paranoid idiot, perhaps both(neither of which is a crime) decided to follow Martin. Martin, instead of calling the cops, fought back(this we know for sure), Zimmerman was forced to shoot him- what provoked this escalation and made him think his very life was in danger isn't known, but considering he was being attacked, he was well within his right by the law to do it.

If you really are going to bring up racial arguments...Zimmerman was Hispanic. I'm just bringing up the fact.

Also I shouldn't have called fw an idiot but come _on._ If you're being suddenly attacked by someone you thought was acting suspicious, that in itself could be enough reason to think your life was in danger.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
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If you really are going to bring up racial arguments...Zimmerman was Hispanic. I'm just bringing up the fact.
I agree with most of the rest of your post, but not with this. Racism/prejudice can and does occur between oppressed groups. White feminists will abandon intersectionality and inclusion to reach gender equality for themselves. Black people will abandon Latin@s and vice versa in order to reach racial equality for themselves. "LGBT" activists will abandon transgender and genderqueer people to reach marriage equality for themselves. It's a sad fact.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:15 PM   #21
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Talon worded my feelings about it better than I ever could have. And that's all I have to say at the moment.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:20 PM   #22
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If you really are going to bring up racial arguments...Zimmerman was Hispanic. I'm just bringing up the fact.
You do know that Hispanic isn't a race right? It's an ethnicity, which means you can still white and Hispanic.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Copygoo View Post
I agree with most of the rest of your post, but not with this. Racism/prejudice can and does occur between oppressed groups. White feminists will abandon intersectionality and inclusion to reach gender equality for themselves. Black people will abandon Latin@s and vice versa in order to reach racial equality for themselves. "LGBT" activists will abandon transgender and genderqueer people to reach marriage equality for themselves. It's a sad fact.
PikaGod brought up the fact that Martin didn't want to call the cops because he was a young black male. That was just my rejoinder to that part, not any other portion of the argument, unless of course it becomes relevant again.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:24 PM   #24
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You do know that Hispanic isn't a race right? It's an ethnicity, which means you can still white and Hispanic.
If Zimmerman is white, then Obama is white. There are certainly racial issues surrounding the case itself, but please don't turn this into a white on black racial issue when it isn't one. The dude is latino.

edit: Mind if I ask why you write it as "Latin@" copy? Is 'Latino' now considered offensive or something?

edit 2: Nvm, looked it up, sorry, I wasn't sure what it initially meant. For anyone wondering it's the gender neutral term.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
This was pretty much a no-win situation from the moment it happened. No matter what the verdict would have been, it would have sucked for one fight or another. An acquittal feels like a smack in the face of logical reasoning while a conviction would've felt like a smack in the face of upholding the law.

I think that this case illustrates that pretty much all of the stand-your-ground laws that we have in this country should at the very least be rewritten to put in some obvious clauses that would separate out legitimate stand-your-ground scenarios from illegitimate ones.

I don't agree with Firewater's fixation on Martin's age though. Being an older teenage boy is plenty old enough to already be a danger to people's lives. Most gang members are in their teens or twenties. (Only 13% of gang members in the mid-1990s were over 24 years old!) I'm not saying that Martin was a gang member or that anything we know about him would suggest that he would have threatened Zimmerman's life. I'm just saying that I think your fixation on Martin's age is inappropriate. I don't think his age is good evidence of his innocence. If anything, if you wanted to go off of gang demographics, it'd be more damning that he was 17, not less damning. So you should probably drop that line of reasoning. "He was just a boy, therefore he couldn't possibly have threatened a grown man" isn't really a firm foundation. "He was just a lean boy with no weapons on him and no history of physical violence" is a much better foundation for your argument.

Quoting CNN:


I do think it's pretty strange that they didn't find him guilty of manslaughter, given that he clearly intentionally committed acts (including intentionally pulling the trigger!) that ended Trayvon Martin's life ... but at the same time, maybe the jury felt squeamish about finding him guilty of manslaughter when that hadn't even been a formal charge against Zimmerman until this very Thursday:


The original charge was second-degree murder. The manslaughter charge only just showed up a couple of days ago out of the blue. I'm sure there's a story behind all of this: behind why it didn't show up initially, why it did finally show up Thursday, and why the jury still didn't feel comfortable going for it once it was presented before them.

But yeah, if you read the requirements for second-degree murder, there's just no way that the prosecution could have proven this. All of the supposition about Zimmerman's intentions is pure speculation. Obviously it makes sense, given the picture, but it's still just speculation. We don't convict people of second-degree murder based on mere speculation. The prosecution would've had to have shown evidence that Zimmerman didn't value all human lives equally, something which would have been very tough for them to do given his history. They would've had to have shown that he killed Martin not from terror but out of an evil malice within his heart, a dark desire to snuff out another's life. They couldn't do anything like this, given the crime scene and the defendant's record, so the second-degree murder charge was pretty much dead in the water. I think that's why they must have pushed so hard for the manslaughter charge. Because they knew that they couldn't get the murder charge.


For my fixation on the age, it's just a simple fact that it doesn't matter if the person was 13, 17, 16, 8, white, black, yellow, green, etc. the point is that a grown adult killed a (in legal terms) child under a suspicion of illegal activity. Yes, children can kill or seriously injure adults. That doesn't make it right when a younger person is killed.

Makes sense once again, I agree, I think 2nd degree murder was a stretch, but I expected some conviction on some level. I just don't get how he was found not guilty of at least manslaughter since he chose to follow and chose to shoot the gun (yes, I will give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt that he did not intend to kill Martin), but that doesn't excuse the fact that you killed someone and admitted it, and still couldn't prove or appear to have any injury that would call for deadly force.

Quote:
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It's also the point you seemed intent on bringing on.

The fact remains that there was no evidence against him. If you have to face the facts simply, it's that Zimmerman, perhaps being racist, perhaps being a paranoid idiot, perhaps both(neither of which is a crime) decided to follow Martin. Martin, instead of calling the cops, fought back(this we know for sure), Zimmerman was forced to shoot him- what provoked this escalation and made him think his very life was in danger isn't known, but considering he was being attacked, he was well within his right by the law to do it.

If you really are going to bring up racial arguments...Zimmerman was Hispanic. I'm just bringing up the fact.

Also I shouldn't have called fw an idiot but come _on._ If you're being suddenly attacked by someone you thought was acting suspicious, that in itself could be enough reason to think your life was in danger.
1. There was evidence, you're right, it wasn't very good but it existed, and even if Martin "attacked", Zimmerman was the aggressor since he disobeyed the orders of law officials and went after Martin- had he listened, no one dies, and Zimmerman isn't a social pariah for the rest of his life.

2. did you listen to PikaGod? have you read a US history book, or any studies on the criminal system in the United States? YES, Martin could have called the cops, but things are different for black people. There are multiple historical examples of police discrimination and brutality against minority groups, but especially African American males. It hasn't been said, but I'm willing to bet that like myself and the majority of black men who live in the southern US/places with a lot of police interaction is to be careful because things can happen that aren't justified. And you aren't answering my question still. Why should the first response to when you follow someone and meet up with them be to kill them? Given the circumstances, and the fact that Martin called someone and was concerned, even if it wasn't the police, does bring a lot of suspicion to the claim that Martin was the attacker in this situation

3. Once again, others proved the point, just because Zimmerman was Latino doesn't mean that he's automatically not racist/pro black people/not prejudiced, that stuff still exists among other races that aren't white.

4. Answered this earlier, but even if Martin attacked first (which is something that is in doubt), why would, or should the first response from Zimmerman be "oh shit I'm in a fight- I need to use my gun?"
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