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Old 12-05-2011, 11:11 AM   #1
unownmew
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Controversial Candidates for President

Since another debate thread seems to be trending in this direction, I figured I'd separate it from the other conversation so it can be discussed more clearly.

Firstly, to set the stage, The state of the country is:

Economy:
Nation: Originally a weak recession from the previous president, now considered a full blown depression as bad as the Great Depression. Unemployment having been generally stagnant around 9% for two years (not counting those who have quit looking for a job which are subsequently not considered or counted in the unemployment numbers anymore) Government Debt practically doubled within the past 3 years time, and the widest sweeping regulations on Business (Healthcare) of all time, enacted within that same time (but scheduled not to fully apply until after this coming election). Our AAA credit rating has been dropped as well during the current president's administration.
States: numerous states finding a lack of money, unsustainable budgets, and the need to cut programs and workers in order to keep from bankrupting.

President: Democrat, for 3 years, having followed a Republican of 8 years.

Congress: Senate-Democrat controlled since the final 2 years of the previous president; House of Representatives-Recently voted in overwhelming majority Republican.

Homefront: multiple Scandals in government being unearthed, (Solindra and Congressional Insider trading), and protests against all manner of things have occurred, from Government to Capitalism (the TEA party and Occupy Wall Street). And a lawsuit against the government regarding the Healthcare laws is planned to be reviewed by the supreme court this coming next year.

Foreign Affairs:
Wars: War weary, having been deployed and at war for the past 10 years against a hidden faction of terrorists, in two different countries. Recently supported a successful Rebel uprising in Libya, and successfully "taken care of" the leader of the faction we are at war with (unfortunately, engrained IDEOLOGIES are not so easily dispatched as enemy countries). Our Friend and Ally Israel is continually pressed from most sides by hostile intentions, also having lost a "Ally" in Egypt, in the way of an ousted dictator who had at least adhered to a protective treaty in Israel's behalf, which is now no longer in effect. Iran disregarding sanctions and developing a nuclear program, which may not be so disinclined to actually use them against Israel.
Economy: The Euro is on the brink of collapse, multiple countries in Europe are on the verge of bankruptcy, and Red China is slated to benefit the most from all this economic upheaval.


(I wrote all that from memory, so if you take issue with something I described here or wish to add something else, please link me to correct info, so that I may change this post, and not be dis-informing others.
All information presented here is designed only to list facts, and not suggest any correlation to anything else, if a statement is interpreted as suggesting a correlation, please ignore said correlation in regards to this post, and let any actual correlation be brought up and discussed in regards to the actual topic of this thread, which is the candidates running for president and their positions on "The Issues".)


Secondly, we have a large number of possible Presidents in 2012, several Republicans vying for the office, and the incumbent Democrat (should a contending democrat be found later, he or she will also be added for discussion)

I will list them here, and would ask that each poster joining the discussion copy this list, and list briefly the Pros and Cons of each candidate or at least each candidate they wish to discuss (either for or against), from their own opinion, before debate on their merits or dismerits is approached.

This is intended to promote a critical analysis of the candidates on a whole, instead of knee-jerk reactions and party rhetoric to the names.

Incumbent President: Barrock Hussein Obama
Pros:
Cons:


Texas Governor: Rick Perry
Pros:
Cons:


Minnesota Congresswoman: Michele Bachmann
Pros:
Cons:


Former Speaker of the House: Newt Gingrich
Pros:
Cons:


Former Utah Governor: Jon Huntsman
Pros:
Cons:


Former New Mexico Governor: Gary Johnson
Pros:
Cons:


Intended Independent Candidate: Fred Karger
Pros:
Cons:


Andy Martin
Pros:
Cons:


Rent Is Too Damn High Party: Jimmy McMillan
Pros:
Cons:


Career Flight Attendant: Tom Miller
Pros:
Cons:


Texas State Representative: Ron Paul
Pros:
Cons:


Former Louisiana Governor: Buddy Roemer
Pros:
Cons:


Former Massachusetts Governor: Mitt Romney
Pros:
Cons:


Former Pennsylvania Senator: Rick Santorum
Pros:
Cons:


Matt Snyder
Pros:
Cons:


Businessman: Vern Wuensche
Pros:
Cons:


And two others I'd like to "Write In," though not necessary to answer, I'm curious about your thoughts on them:

Businessman: Herman Cain
Pros:
Cons:


Former Alaska Governor: Sarah Palin
Pros:
Cons:




(Owing to the length of this post, my analysis will be in another post)

Last edited by unownmew; 12-05-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:42 AM   #2
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>Herman Cain

I thought he'd officially pulled out now?
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:54 AM   #3
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That's why I put him at the bottom with Sarah Palin, who also isn't running.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
That's why I put him at the bottom with Sarah Palin, who also isn't running.
Sarah Palin is a joke.

kthnxbai
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:02 PM   #5
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I like how you put in the "Hussein" for Obama but didn't use any of the other candidates' middle names.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyranidos View Post
I like how you put in the "Hussein" for Obama but didn't use any of the other candidates' middle names.
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY OBOMA IS A TERRORIST!
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:06 PM   #7
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As much as I, generally speaking, don't agree with Unownmew's political opinions as he's previously posted them on UPN, can we at least hold off on the stereotyping and strawman bullshit for one page?
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:19 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Nation: Originally a weak recession from the previous president, now considered a full blown depression as bad as the Great Depression.
No spin here at all! [/sarcasm]

The economy exploded under Bush in the Summer of 2008. The explosion was the end result of many events and decisions which took place during his eight years in office, many of which were beyond his (or any President's) control but some of which were not. None of the events took place during Obama's presidency. He inherited this mess and it's pretty pathetic how you guys keep trying to pin it on him.

Once again, I find myself in need of this image macro:


This came out back in 2009 (sad, huh?) but I see it's as salient and necessary as ever. Tea Partiers honestly believe that if they tell a lie enough times, people will accept that it's the truth. No. We're tired of your revisionist history. Enough is enough.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:36 PM   #9
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Going to agree with Talon on the above. It doesn't happen overnight - prominent economists were calling the incoming recession for years before it happened as a result of things that were happening (the real estate bubble, for example) largely in the US but also elsewhere, and I can tell you that the shit hit the fan here in the UK - not long but noticeably after it did in the States - while Bush was still in power.

It would be foolish to lay it entirely at Bush's door, because it certainly wasn't entirely one mans fault and while there are things he could've done there are things that other politicians and whatnot around the world could've done. Blaming it on the guy who came to power after shit hit the fan seems... ridiculous. I mean, no doubt there are things he could've done to lessen the problems but large scale human society is inevitably full of shit.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:13 PM   #10
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My Analysis:

Incumbent President: Barrock Hussein Obama
Pros:
"Obama Got Osama!" [/Obligatory kudos]
He's predictable
If you push hard enough he'll cave
If you put something in his own self interest, he'll usually do it, even if it goes contrary to his rigid ideals
Cons:
Socialist/Redistributionist
a main proponent of the Solindra scandal
Nationalized Healthcare
Wants higher taxes (for all)
Anti-business, pro-stifling business regulations
Closely associated with Jerimiah Wright and Bill Aires, both anti-American radicals (no matter how many times he denies it, it doesn't change the fact that he was with them for a long time before now)
Promotes Government Subsidized Green Energy
Anti-Drilling
Double the total absolute National Debt, from Washington to Bush, in just 3 years.
Doesn't lead.


Texas Governor: Rick Perry
Pros:
Fellow Texan, and my ideal candidate
Whether he is partly responsible for Texas' friendly business climate and increased job growth, or not, he at least knew enough not to mess with the pre-existing policies that helped create it.
True Rags to Riches story (Small Farmer to potential President)
A man of Faith, and unashamed of it.
Almost Radical plans to Reform the National Government, too many to list individually
End Base-line Budgeting
Flat Tax
Pro-gun
Defend the Boarder
Realizes the Country is in a dire situation
Other issues
Cons:
Stalled in the debates, and hasn't been able to regain momentum effectively since.
3 controversial Policy decisions made as governor that may bite him later. (immigration, a Government mandated vaccine, and, ...? )


Former Speaker of the House: Newt Gingrich
Pros:
Will enforce against illegal Immigration in as a feaseable manner as possible.
Knows how government works (which can be used to make it work as efficiently as possible)
optional flat tax
remove imposing regulations on business
balance the budget
repeal Obama Care
reform entitlements
make businesses more competitive with those around the world.
All-American Energy
Will protect life and Religious liberty
Willing to accept input from We the People
already working on legislation/executive orders to be enacted when/if he becomes president (He's on the ball!)
Secure the Boarder by Jan 1, 2014, "By any means necessary"
Transfer Power from the government back to the states
Seems aware the Country is in a dire situation.
Other issues
Cons:
has supported Man-made Global Warming in the past (a debate for another time)
has been associated with the legislature in the past (so he's "tainted")
has supported the healthcare mandate in the past



Minnesota Congresswoman: Michele Bachmann
Pros:
Repeal Dodd-Frank
Repeal Obamacare
Cut Taxes
Cut Spending
Cut Government
Cut Regulations
Pro-drilling
Will not rest until the War on Terror is won.
Knows small business
Wants to strengthen the family and defend marriage.
Realizes the Country is in a dire situation.
Cons:
Some people consider her too controversial
She stalled before she even started
Her Website isn't as informative or specific as Perry's


Former Massachusetts Governor: Mitt Romney
Pros:
Mormon, like myself, if he's a true practitioner of the religion, (which I'm ashamed to say, I am not), We can all be assured he will do nothing dishonest in his term, and will receive inspiration from God on how to correctly run the country.
Will repeal Obamacare
Will ease regulations on business
Will ease taxes
Knows business
Cons:
There can be no guarantees on how devoted he is in his religion
Massachusetts Healthcare Law
Believes in man-made Global Warming (a debate for another time)
has flip-flopped on statements regarding issues.


Matt Snyder
Businessman: Vern Wuensche
Career Flight Attendant: Tom Miller
Former Louisiana Governor: Buddy Roemer
Rent Is Too Damn High Party: Jimmy McMillan
Intended Independent Candidate: Fred Karger
Andy Martin
Former New Mexico Governor: Gary Johnson
Pros:
Not Obama
Republican
Cons:
I've never heard of these people before


Businessman: Herman Cain
Pros:
Proposed and heavily promoted a flat tax before it was trendy
Knows business
congenial, likeable personality
9,9,9, the first two nines; (9% for business and personal taxes, I'm all for paying less.
Cons:
9,9,9, the final 9; I don't want to be paying a 9% sales tax on everything I buy.


Former Alaska Governor: Sarah Palin
Pros:
The antithesis of Liberalism
unabashed conservative
likeable, and identifiable with the middle class.
unphased by attacks, smears, libel, slander, lies, and other attempts to discredit her by those who hate her.
Emphatic
Cons:
Apparently "too conservative" for people to vote for her.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
My Analysis:

Incumbent President: Barrock Hussein Obama
Pros:
"Obama Got Osama!" [/Obligatory kudos]
He's predictable
If you push hard enough he'll cave Not sure that us a good thing. :/
If you put something in his own self interest, he'll usually do it, even if it goes contrary to his rigid ideals this is hypocritical right here.
Cons:
Socialist/Redistributionist believe it or not, socialism is not that bad in theory, only in practice has it failed
a main proponent of the Solindra scandal elab
Nationalized Healthcare OMG LET'S NOT BE LIKE CANADA!
Wants higher taxes (for all) stop your whining, *insert obligatory post on how British people have higher taxes than we do and laugh at our complaining
Anti-business, pro-stifling business regulations elab please
Closely associated with Jerimiah Wright and Bill Aires, both anti-American radicals (no matter how many times he denies it, it doesn't change the fact that he was with them for a long time before now) elab please
Promotes Government Subsidized Green Energy so....he wants to be greener and not rely on foreign oil.....
Anti-Drilling elab again
Double the total absolute National Debt, from Washington to Bush, in just 3 years. Reagan, your "hero" tripled the debt in his presidency
Doesn't lead. "If you push hard enough he'll cave" HYPOCRITE!

Texas Governor: Rick Perry
Pros:
Fellow Texan, and my ideal candidate uh.....who gives a crap where he is from
Whether he is partly responsible for Texas' friendly business climate and increased job growth, or not, he at least knew enough not to mess with the pre-existing policies that helped create it. so, he does not lead? so, leaders should just keep everything the same even though the world economy changes? This is stupid.
True Rags to Riches story (Small Farmer to potential President) this is nice and all, but....
A man of Faith, and unashamed of it. being religious has nothing to do with it
Almost Radical plans to Reform the National Government, too many to list individually a lot of his plans are bullshit, like reforming the EPa, getting rid of the department of education(when our kids are dumb enough as it is. Some of them are good. His "audits" are going to cost so much money it is not even funny
End Base-line Budgeting elab please
Flat Tax no
Pro-gun Hi, welcome to Columbine
Defend the Boarder this is good
Realizes the Country is in a dire situation and don't we all know that :P
Other issues
Cons:
Stalled in the debates, and hasn't been able to regain momentum effectively since.
3 controversial Policy decisions made as governor that may bite him later. (immigration, a Government mandated vaccine, and, ...? ) so, he made a vaccine that you had to take so you could be healthy. This is SO bad. :P

Former Speaker of the House: Newt Gingrich
Pros:
Will enforce against illegal Immigration in as a feaseable manner as possible. alright, makes sense
Knows how government works (which can be used to make it work as efficiently as possible) and government is corrupt, right?
optional flat tax no
remove imposing regulations on business what is imposing?
balance the budget if he is a republican, this won't happen
repeal Obama Care so, no Canada?
reform entitlements elab please
make businesses more competitive with those around the world. if this is going to happen, then minimum wage needs to go lower.
All-American Energy he is good here
Will protect life and Religious liberty religion should not be a factor
Willing to accept input from We the People like this is going to happen
already working on legislation/executive orders to be enacted when/if he becomes president (He's on the ball!) he is PROACTIVE! finally
Secure the Boarder by Jan 1, 2014, "By any means necessary" sounds like the most recent part of legislation for battlefield U.S.A.
Transfer Power from the government back to the states not too much, okay ;)
Seems aware the Country is in a dire situation. WE ALL KNOW THIS!
Other issues
Cons:
has supported Man-made Global Warming in the past (a debate for another time) this is not a con. This is a pro. Because it is true.
has been associated with the legislature in the past (so he's "tainted") ME FOR PRES!
has supported the healthcare mandate in the past this is good.
I will deal with this one first, because it made me piss myself in laughter. Will edit in other ones once I change my pants.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:51 PM   #12
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And here I thought we could actually have a civil debate, yet not one person seems to be truly interested in debating merits, as evidenced from the apparent lack of following the guidelines outlined in the first post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeVA View Post
Sarah Palin is a joke.

kthnxbai
Do an analysis, like I mentioned in the first post please, if you want to talk about the demerits of any particular person. I don't care how biased your analysis is, so long as you include both a pro and a con. Then please let us discuss actual substance instead of throwing around insults at people we don't like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyranidos View Post
I like how you put in the "Hussein" for Obama but didn't use any of the other candidates' middle names.
I didn't know the others' middle names, and didn't want to spend any more extra effort to find them out. If you know them I'd be happy to edit my post to put them in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
As much as I, generally speaking, don't agree with Unownmew's political opinions as he's previously posted them on UPN, can we at least hold off on the stereotyping and strawman bullshit for one page?
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
No spin here at all! [/sarcasm]

The economy exploded under Bush in the Summer of 2008. The explosion was the end result of many events and decisions which took place during his eight years in office, many of which were beyond his (or any President's) control but some of which were not. None of the events took place during Obama's presidency. He inherited this mess and it's pretty pathetic how you guys keep trying to pin it on him.
I never said anywhere he was responsible for it in my post, obviously you're putting words in my mouth. (Admitted I espouse to the belief that he's very much responsible for part of it, but hear me out, and don't put words in my mouth I didn't say.)

I simply mentioned that which I've heard reported. And particularly, I heard the economy spoken of as a recession, back when Obama was running for office, and now if I'm not mistaken, even he himself has called it the "worst economy since the Great Depression," or something like that. So, I'm not putting any spin here.

Obviously the housing bubble was a major factor (which was due to restrictions and legislation enacted by the democrat legislators in the way of Fanny-Mae and Freddy-Mack). That occurred under Bush, yes.
Obama is at fault here, for failing to respond in the correct way, if at all, and enacting "more of the same," throughout his past 3 years. More taxes, more regulations, more government bureaucracy, and no repeal of the culprit legislation.

The way he's doubled the debt and government spending hasn't helped either, and his stalwort refusal to do anything different, besides token lip service and political ploys, only puts him lower in my books.

So, no, Obama did not start the problem, but he's failed to fix it, and only made it worse by trying. Economy can fix itself better with a hands-off approach, but Obama seems to think the best thing to do it to keep shifting the mess around in hopes he'll somehow reconfigure it back the way it was.


Quote:
This came out back in 2009 (sad, huh?) but I see it's as salient and necessary as ever. Tea Partiers honestly believe that if they tell a lie enough times, people will accept that it's the truth. No. We're tired of your revisionist history. Enough is enough.
Same goes for the Left. They tout lies as truth all the time as well, neither party is clean, so don't suggest it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Going to agree with Talon on the above. It doesn't happen overnight - prominent economists were calling the incoming recession for years before it happened as a result of things that were happening (the real estate bubble, for example) largely in the US but also elsewhere, and I can tell you that the shit hit the fan here in the UK - not long but noticeably after it did in the States - while Bush was still in power.

It would be foolish to lay it entirely at Bush's door, because it certainly wasn't entirely one mans fault and while there are things he could've done there are things that other politicians and whatnot around the world could've done. Blaming it on the guy who came to power after shit hit the fan seems... ridiculous. I mean, no doubt there are things he could've done to lessen the problems but large scale human society is inevitably full of shit.
For the most part, I agree with you here. Nothing is entirely one man's fault, though, the desire to blame the prominent figurehead, goes back forever. Obama and the left place all the blame on Bush, Others place all the blame on Obama, and smart people like yourselves, blame everyone else affiliated as well, but recognize the figurehead has the responsibility to do as much as he can regardless of whatever power he may or may not have, and when/if it doesn't turn out, know that he will be the one held responsible in the history books.

Last edited by unownmew; 12-05-2011 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:27 PM   #13
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I can't breathe right now and it's not because of laughter.

Quote:
I simply mentioned that which I've heard reported
And that about sums up all of your arguments in one sentence.

You didn't even know who Murdoch or the Kochs are. Almost all of your "sources" are brain washing, lying machines of hate disguised as "the true voice" in a world full of liberal media all out to get you and destroy this country, and that Obama and his 'czars' continue to corrupt the government via a secret network of loose ties, while they themselves continue to do backroom deals with various corporations because you'll never get it through your head that they are in it for the damn MONEY. You have one side of the fucking story and you refuse to have both. Because of this, you will always have a bias. When your sources muck up or lie, who's going to tell you they did? No one. Because they sure as fuck won't. I'm sorry to be a complete fucking dick about this and a party pooper who gets to use your birthday cake as toilet paper but to be quite frank debates with you have become pointless because you have this clever way of going "Oh yeah, I see that... but you're wrong, because... Rush Limbaugh." Don't twist it around and say "You're the pot calling the kettle black!", because believe it or not, almost all of us have listened to the other side of the story or still do, but unfortunately it's too far in the left field a majority of the time to take seriously, although I suppose they will occasionally hit a foul tip. You are stuck with pundits and a consistent circlejerk of lies and choir preaching--- cutting myself off here because I've gone too far.


I applaud you for one thing, mew, and that's that you've successfully brought out the immaturity in most of us including myself time and time again whilst staying levelheaded yourself, thus making our arguments look incorrect to you.

I'm sorry. A lot of my rant is completely out of line, but I'm not taking it back now that I've gotten it off of my chest. I just don't see why you won't just try to open up your horizons more and realize that there's more to the story than just what you're spoonfed.

Let me ask you one thing. Don't beat around the bush, just answer it truthfully:

Do you believe personally that Obama wants to implement Sharia Law into the United States?

Last edited by deoxys; 12-05-2011 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:53 PM   #14
unownmew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeVA View Post
Incumbent President: Barrock Hussein Obama
Pros:
"Obama Got Osama!" [/Obligatory kudos]
He's predictable
If you push hard enough he'll cave Not sure that us a good thing. :/
If you put something in his own self interest, he'll usually do it, even if it goes contrary to his rigid ideals this is hypocritical right here.
Cons:
Socialist/Redistributionist believe it or not, socialism is not that bad in theory, only in practice has it failed
a main proponent of the Solindra scandal elab
Nationalized Healthcare OMG LET'S NOT BE LIKE CANADA!
Wants higher taxes (for all) stop your whining, *insert obligatory post on how British people have higher taxes than we do and laugh at our complaining
Anti-business, pro-stifling business regulations elab please
Closely associated with Jerimiah Wright and Bill Aires, both anti-American radicals (no matter how many times he denies it, it doesn't change the fact that he was with them for a long time before now) elab please
Promotes Government Subsidized Green Energy so....he wants to be greener and not rely on foreign oil.....
Anti-Drilling elab again
Double the total absolute National Debt, from Washington to Bush, in just 3 years. Reagan, your "hero" tripled the debt in his presidency
Doesn't lead. "If you push hard enough he'll cave" HYPOCRITE!

Texas Governor: Rick Perry
Pros:
Fellow Texan, and my ideal candidate uh.....who gives a crap where he is from
Whether he is partly responsible for Texas' friendly business climate and increased job growth, or not, he at least knew enough not to mess with the pre-existing policies that helped create it. so, he does not lead? so, leaders should just keep everything the same even though the world economy changes? This is stupid.
True Rags to Riches story (Small Farmer to potential President) this is nice and all, but....
A man of Faith, and unashamed of it. being religious has nothing to do with it
Almost Radical plans to Reform the National Government, too many to list individually a lot of his plans are bullshit, like reforming the EPa, getting rid of the department of education(when our kids are dumb enough as it is. Some of them are good. His "audits" are going to cost so much money it is not even funny
End Base-line Budgeting elab please
Flat Tax no
Pro-gun Hi, welcome to Columbine
Defend the Boarder this is good
Realizes the Country is in a dire situation and don't we all know that :P
Other issues
Cons:
Stalled in the debates, and hasn't been able to regain momentum effectively since.
3 controversial Policy decisions made as governor that may bite him later. (immigration, a Government mandated vaccine, and, ...? ) so, he made a vaccine that you had to take so you could be healthy. This is SO bad. :P

Former Speaker of the House: Newt Gingrich
Pros:
Will enforce against illegal Immigration in as a feaseable manner as possible. alright, makes sense
Knows how government works (which can be used to make it work as efficiently as possible) and government is corrupt, right?
optional flat tax no
remove imposing regulations on business what is imposing?
balance the budget if he is a republican, this won't happen
repeal Obama Care so, no Canada?
reform entitlements elab please
make businesses more competitive with those around the world. if this is going to happen, then minimum wage needs to go lower.
All-American Energy he is good here
Will protect life and Religious liberty religion should not be a factor
Willing to accept input from We the People like this is going to happen
already working on legislation/executive orders to be enacted when/if he becomes president (He's on the ball!) he is PROACTIVE! finally
Secure the Boarder by Jan 1, 2014, "By any means necessary" sounds like the most recent part of legislation for battlefield U.S.A.
Transfer Power from the government back to the states not too much, okay ;)
Seems aware the Country is in a dire situation. WE ALL KNOW THIS!
Other issues
Cons:
has supported Man-made Global Warming in the past (a debate for another time) this is not a con. This is a pro. Because it is true.
has been associated with the legislature in the past (so he's "tainted") ME FOR PRES!
has supported the healthcare mandate in the past this is good.
I appreciate your comments. If you could though, please do a personal analysis of these candidates yourself, so we can debate both at once.
(Also, please don't put your replies in my quotes, it prevents me from quoting you back, instead forcing me to cut/paste.)
Quote:
If you push hard enough he'll cave Not sure that us a good thing. :/
It's a good thing for me, because that means he can be forced by the people to rule for the people

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If you put something in his own self interest, he'll usually do it, even if it goes contrary to his rigid ideals this is hypocritical right here.
I'm saying he's ultimately more interested in saving his own skin, then in establishing his radical policies.


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Socialist/Redistributionist believe it or not, socialism is not that bad in theory, only in practice has it failed
Socialism, is an offshoot of the "Law of Consecration" from the bible. Basically, everyone worked, gave ALL they had to the church, and then the church distributed it evenly and justly among all the members. It is a very high law (which didn't work for long in the bible either), and eventually, (if you believe the bible), we'll all be living it in the millennium after the apocalypse. The problem is, it can NEVER truly work, while humankind is corrupt. Socialism/Communism/Marxism, is the absolute tyrannical enforcement of that Law. The only other way it can actually work, because everyone is literally forced to do so. Under any system enacted by imperfect humans though, it will become rife with abuse. People will not work, and receive the benefits, and those at the top will deal themselves more benefits then everyone else, and ensure they keep their workers in despotism to prevent uprisings.
Because "Socialism" is impossible to enact properly, Capitalism must take it's place, because it is the only law that allows complete independent freedom for the individual, it uses Human's Corruption, aka self interest, to empower others.

Quote:
a main proponent of the Solindra scandal elab
Solyndra Scandal; Basically Obama rushed the loan process to get them tax $$$s in the form of a loan, despite a provably shaky business plan, and then used them to tout the future of Green Energy, and now they're bankrupt and our Tax $$$s are never coming back. It's also possible it was a reward for support during his campaign, basically money laundering.

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Nationalized Healthcare OMG LET'S NOT BE LIKE CANADA!
I don't want national healthcare, so its a con for me.
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Wants higher taxes (for all) stop your whining, *insert obligatory post on how British people have higher taxes than we do and laugh at our complaining
We're Americans, we overthrew the British over a measly 3% tax, and we've complained about every other tax since, we'll keep complaining.

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Anti-business, pro-stifling business regulations elab please
Obamacare requires businesses pay for their employee's healthcare or pay a fee. Most businesses can't afford that extra expense. Restrictions on CO2 emissions lower business profits, which inhibit that business' growth and expansion. Oil drilling is super restricted, which reduces their growth and ability to expand and employ more workers. Among others.

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Closely associated with Jerimiah Wright and Bill Ayres, both anti-American radicals (no matter how many times he denies it, it doesn't change the fact that he was with them for a long time before now)elab please
Jeremiah Write
Bill Ayers

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Promotes Government Subsidized Green Energy so....he wants to be greener and not rely on foreign oil.....
Both of which we can do without needing government subsidies using our Tax $$$s to promote them.
greener: Let the free market determine alternatives in their own due time.
not rely on Foreign oil: Drill here, Drill Now, Drill Baby Drill

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Anti-Drilling elab again
Obama Moratorium on Drilling
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Double the total absolute National Debt, from Washington to Bush, in just 3 years. Reagan, your "hero" tripled the debt in his presidency
But he didn't put us in the trillions.
Besides Defense Spending, which Reagan used to pressure The Soviets into surrendering the Cold War, without a single loss of American life in combat, Reagan completely balanced the National budget.

Doesn't lead. "If you push hard enough he'll cave" HYPOCRITE!
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I fail to see your point. Obama has not lead this country, all he's done is campaign, and he sure as heck isn't interested in changing his ideals. Fortunately, if we put enough pressure on him, he'll relent, grudgingly, like any non-leader would do. Unfortunately, Congress has yet to apply enough force against him. Of course, even if he did lead the country while properly stating his ideals, it would be better then what we have today.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:57 PM   #15
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Drill here, Drill Now, Drill Baby Drill
Ladies and gentlemen, we're done here.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:02 PM   #16
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Whenever someone mentions Obamas middle name in any sort of argument, to me, it is a cue to just not bother reading it.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by deoxys View Post

You didn't even know who Murdoch or the Kochs are. Almost all of your "sources" are brain washing, lying machines of hate disguised as "the true voice" in a world full of liberal media all out to get you and destroy this country, and that Obama and his 'czars' continue to corrupt the government via a secret network of loose ties, while they themselves continue to do backroom deals with various corporations because you'll never get it through your head that they are in it for the damn MONEY. You have one side of the fucking story and you refuse to have both. Because of this, you will always have a bias. When your sources muck up or lie, who's going to tell you they did? No one. Because they sure as fuck won't. I'm sorry to be a complete fucking dick about this and a party pooper who gets to use your birthday cake as toilet paper but to be quite frank debates with you have become pointless because you have this clever way of going "Oh yeah, I see that... but you're wrong, because... Rush Limbaugh." Don't twist it around and say "You're the pot calling the kettle black!", because believe it or not, almost all of us have listened to the other side of the story or still do, but unfortunately it's too far in the left field a majority of the time to take seriously, although I suppose they will occasionally hit a foul tip. You are stuck with pundits and a consistent circlejerk of lies and choir preaching--- cutting myself off here because I've gone too far.
Well, I for one, would love to know how and where you came to this conclusion, because I have seen nothing worth report indicating it.

And honestly, I couldn't care less how many of them are "paid off" by "big evil corporations," as long as they espouse the Constitution as originally founded and written, love America, support small and limited government, and declare freedom and liberty for all, even those who disagree with them.
Geez, I wish I could get paid for doing all that.

What is wrong with the Heritage Foundation?
What is wrong with Hillsdale College?
What is wrong with (the essense, not the architechure) of Christian Religion?

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I applaud you for one thing, mew, and that's that you've successfully brought out the immaturity in most of us including myself time and time again whilst staying levelheaded yourself, thus making our arguments look incorrect to you.
Not my intention, and I've not always stayed so level-headed, I get embroiled in rants too, and hostily defend myself when I feel like I'm being treated hostily.
I haven't devolved to personal insults though, to the best of my knowledge, and if I have, I apologize for it.

Quote:
I'm sorry. A lot of my rant is completely out of line, but I'm not taking it back now that I've gotten it off of my chest. I just don't see why you won't just try to open up your horizons more and realize that there's more to the story than just what you're spoonfed.
Apology Accepted, I know how it is to be frustrated with something. As for my Horizons, what am I to look at then? the Left is entirely out of the question, and that's not simply because "Rush Limbaugh said so!"
Apparently my Conservative Principles are incorrect as well, according to you guys.

I guess I should join the middle and stand for being "lukewarm," in a place that could not exist were there not two opposing sides around me?


Quote:
Let me ask you one thing. Don't beat around the bush, just answer it truthfully:

Do you believe personally that Obama wants to implement Sharia Law into the United States?
Short answer: No.

Elaborate explanation: Sharia Law, no, however, I do believe, that, if he had the chance, he would implement Communistic and Dictatorial Rule into the United States. He's already on the record saying he wants to "Fundamentally change the constitution," he's apologized to numerous countries for this country's past actions (which actions, I think there is little wrong with), and his association with a convicted and unrepentant terrorist, along with a Marxist Scholar, reveal, IMO, his true motivations.


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Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
Ladies and gentlemen, we're done here.
Tongue Firmly in Cheek when I said that. Though the concept remains. How else are we to become energy independent when "Green" generally just means "expensive"
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Originally Posted by Holy Emperor View Post
Whenever someone mentions Obamas middle name in any sort of argument, to me, it is a cue to just not bother reading it.
Yet you felt the need to comment anyway. Do join in, there's room enough for everyone, you won't be the first person to try and argue me without reading anything I say.

Last edited by unownmew; 12-05-2011 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:22 PM   #18
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he's apologized to numerous countries for this country's past actions (which actions, I think there is little wrong with)
Eradicating an entire populace from the face of the globe ... times thirty+.

Locking up American citizens without due process on the basis of their race and the fact that it happened to be the same race as the people in a nation we went to war with even though many of them had been law-abiding, upstanding members of their communities and were not even first-generation citizens but instead second, third, or more.

Enslaving an entire race of people and teaching the children of the master race that (a) they were of a master race and (b) that the slave race wasn't even fully human.

Interfering with a nation's attempt to win freedom from their colonial overlords in the name of stemming the Red Tide.

Giving money, arms, deals to both Iraq and Iran in the exact same war and telling them "Have at!" and laughing all the way to the bank while the two sides eliminate one another and set each other back by about 20-30 years due to all the infrastructure and lives lost by the costly eight-year war.

You can't even think of one thing we've done worth apologizing for? Are you fucking kidding me?
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:11 PM   #19
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Hmm, there's two different ways I could approach this accusation, I think I'll use both:

1
Damn Straight we did! This is America, the largest force of Good on the planet. I'm not sorry for bothering a few commies or bombing the shit out of our enemies-at-the-time. I shouldn't have to be either. Patriot Pride! Country over everyone else, just like in olden times!

2.
There is a fine line between absolutes, and you seem to enjoy taking what I say, exaggerating it, and then telling me it's ridiculous to have such an absolute view.

To clarify my statement:
Quote:
(which actions [In reference to what Obama went around the world apologizing for, that we did to "those countries"], I think there is little [not completely perfect, but not overly sinful either] wrong with)

Yes our government has done some bad things, most of which were to our own people:
backing down on Treaties with the Indians: Bad any way you slice it
rounding up Japanese Americans and sending them to camps: Very bad, but understandable for the situation
Breaking constitutional bounds: inexcusable
Breaking faith with it's own Citizens: inexcusable


What have we done to other nations that is to be apologized for?
Nuked Japan: no apology needed, War is War, they started it, and they refused to finish it, so we did it for them. Now we're allies, and Japan is a huge part of our culture.

Slavery: We didn't start it, it was a carry over from Britain. The Consitution was a major triumph against it, even though it could not be done away with completely at the time. We eventually fought a war over it, and abolished it completely. Considering how long slavery has been a part of human history, it's close to a miracle it was abolished and rectified as fast as it was. Changing an entire way of thinking takes time, especially since it's swept the entire world since that time too.

Messed with communists: We did what we did. We don't have to be happy about those we affected that were unaffiliated, but fighting a war without civilian casualties, is impossible and should never be expected to occur, no matter how you try to spin it.

Iraq-Iran Double Dealing; I'm not aware of the surrounding circumstances of this action, which you mentioned Talon but as far as I'm aware, both have been an enemy for some time. Getting two enemies to duke it out in a proxy war, not only is it good business, but it's excellent strategy. Would you rather we have committed our own troops and monetary resources to fighting them both? War sucks, but it's still an inevitability. The wisest thing a nation can do in that case, it to displace the fighting as far from themselves as possible so their own citizens can live in relative peace. Any attempt to say war is unnecessary is the height of folly. Only unnecessary war is unnecessary.


Breaking Treaties with Allies: inexcusable, except if our Allies turn on us first, even if our temporary leader truly dislikes them. This I can see worthy of an Apology. Japan and Israel need our apology for leaving them high and dry these past few years, along with a recommitment to uphold our end of treaties fully.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:23 PM   #20
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Guys, unownmew has stated that most of his news comes from Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. That pretty much explains everything and really makes it difficult to have a reasonable debate with the guy. It also doesn't really help when all we are actually doing is insulting unwonmew's intelligence more than anything.

That being said, unownmew, please consider reading news from a variety of sources before bringing up arguments. I'm fully aware that all news is inherently biased, but getting a good range of news from both sides helps clear the picture.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:27 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post

What have we done to other nations that is to be apologized for?
Nuked Japan: no apology needed, War is War, they started it, and they refused to finish it, so we did it for them. Now we're allies, and Japan is a huge part of our culture.
You should probably read up on what provoked such attacks

The US knew exactly what they were getting themselves into and in fact knew Pearl Harbor was an inevitability, and used it to allow us to be dragged headfirst into WWII


Quote:
Breaking Treaties with Allies: inexcusable, except if our Allies turn on us first, even if our temporary leader truly dislikes them. This I can see worthy of an Apology. Japan and Israel need our apology for leaving them high and dry these past few years, along with a recommitment to uphold our end of treaties fully.
edit: sorry guys I went full retard on this comment, have taken it down

Last edited by deoxys; 12-05-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:38 PM   #22
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Damn Straight we did! This is America, the largest force of Good on the planet.
You're deluded.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:46 PM   #23
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You're deluded.
This.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
You're deluded.
In other news, the sky is blue, the earth is round (probably news to Unownmew actually) and bears like to defecate in forested areas.
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Old 12-06-2011, 11:11 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Lonely Cubone View Post
In other news, the sky is blue, the earth is round (probably news to Unownmew actually) and bears like to defecate in forested areas.
Did you know that the government lied to us, space pictures are fake(as we never went to the moon), and that Antartica is actually a wall of ice surrounding a flat earth?

Legit, there are peooke who believe this.
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