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Old 07-12-2014, 05:10 AM   #2751
rotomotorz
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>Aegi Ban
There is absolutely no reason behind this other than it's popular. Literally no reason. If people want to use weirder Pokemon that get stopped by Aegislash then use them.

>Unpredictable
I don't think I've ever seen a Physical Aegislash set that's stopped my team before. Just phase it out or wall it. Special aegislash is more common but can still be walled
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:14 AM   #2752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
"Within the span of thirty minutes theres 5 pages of posts that Im not gonna read"

And I instantly quit reading your post. I'm sure you made some good points, but don't expect others to give a shit what you have to say if you're going to have the nerve to proclaim that you won't bother reading what they had to say. [/pet peeve]

EDIT: Sorry for being rude. It's just a big pet peeve when people proclaim that they skipped over all the posts that came before but now they expect everyone to read their post. Very selfish. We all skip posts in life, but that's no reason to state that you've done it and in the same breath ask others to now please not skip your post. But never mind that right now. Sorry for being rude about it to you. That was not nice.
Thats understandable. I did skim through them, but all I saw was one of three things over and over and over again:

1). Aegis has a ton of versatility that can get past his normal checks, therefore he is broken.

2). Aegis is super common and the meta has adapted to his presence and that hes not hard to beat.

3). A slew of personal hatred for the damn thing and listing so many different points that can easily be countered if someone took the time to do so.

What you said made sense, and I really didnt even find it rude. You basically said the golden rule. So yeah.

Though a lot of people did read my posts and they agreed with at least the vast majority of them. Otherwise I dont think I wouldve gotten nearly as many likes I did (never would have thought that Id get over 20 likes...).

Regardless, this is gonna be a close call. Leaning towards no ban and thatll mst likely be my vote once I achieve reqs.
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Old 07-12-2014, 01:38 PM   #2753
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I'm honestly tempted to make a counter claim to every single post that supports the ban
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:47 PM   #2754
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Do it Roto, do it.
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:55 PM   #2755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukain
The fact that Aegislash is over centralizing is just that: a fact. If you don't see that the tier is literally built around Aegislash then you're not playing OU.
I feel like this rhetoric is misleading.
Exhibit A: the May 2014 OU usage stats, if you please. Aegislash is No.1 with 21.7% usage. The next closest Pokémon, Excadrill, is nearly three points away at 19.0% usage. The tenth most used Pokémon, Keldeo, has 15.3% usage.

Exhibit B: the May 2013 OU usage stats. Scizor is No.1 with 23.5% usage. The next closest, Ferrothorn, boasts 20.0% usage. The tenth most used is Garchomp with 13.2% usage.

Exhibit C: the May 2012 OU usage stats. Scizor is No.1 with 27.2% usage. Next is Dragonite with 20.0%. And in tenth we have Jirachi with 14.2% usage.
What's the takeaway from these three pieces of evidence?

First, that Aegislash's usage is not nearly as high as Jukain would have you believe with claims like "the tier is literally built around Aegislash." It is "only" 21.7%. While large, this figure is neither much larger than the other top Pokémon in the tier (compare: 19.0% usage for No.2 in May 2014) nor is it larger than the figure for past metagames' No.1 (compare: 27.2% in May 2012). If he were to just say, "Teams in OU are built with Aegislash in mind," he would be absolutely correct. But he doesn't say that. He says that teams are built around Aegislash. His choice of words implies two things: first, that teams in OU today are designed around Aegislash and Aegislash alone; and second, that designing your team around the No.1 threat in the format is not the way of things in Smogon OU. And both suggestions are preposterous. In 2012, if you didn't design your team around Scizor, you were sunk. In 2014, if you don't design your team around Aegislash, you're sunk. This brings us to the second point:

Second, if Aegislash is to be banned for being a centralizing threat (in the sense that you were forced to run certain creatures or moves to handle him), then Scizor should have been banned last generation even moreso. And not just Scizor. Dragonite's usage in May 2012 was only 1.7% points lower than Aegislash's was in May 2014. So why not ban Dragonite too while you're at it, Smogon of the past? But let's stick with Scizor for now.

It was a well-known, oft-stated fact in Gen 5 that Fire types were generally speaking a liability to have on your team. There was too much rain, too much threat of Earthquake and Stone Edge, and too damn many Stealth Rocks. In the top 20 Pokémon of OU in August 2013, only three Fire types were present: Heatran, Volcarona, and Ninetales. One legendary with the excellent Steel typing, one pseudo-legendary with threats in Quiver Dance and Giga Drain, and one weather setter. But at the same time, it was also a known fact back in Gen 5 that every team worth its salt would squeeze a Fire move on there somewhere. And this was because, as you can see from the August 2013 usage stats, the two top Pokémon in the tier were both 4x weak to Fire. So even if the meta was unkind to Fire-type creatures, you'd have to have been a fool not to pack a Fire-type move on there somewhere. A Flamethrower here. A Flare Blitz there. Something, somewhere, to deal with these two threats.

If I asked for Scizor to be banned in August 2013 for being overcentralizing and forcing my team to run a Fire move, I'd be laughed out of Smogon. So why is it that now in July 2014, only eleven months later, we're seeing some of the most respected members of the Smogon community coarsely expressing this very point of view -- and seemingly winning the PR war with it!? Why is it suddenly okay to mock those who suggest that Aegislash can be easily answered by a laundry list of creatures and attacks and therefore should not be banned yet it wasn't okay this time last year to mock those who'd have suggested the very same for why Scizor should not be banned? The same people who are saying that the meta would be so much kinder to Fairies and Psychics if Aegislash were gone ... would people still agree with them if they were to voice the same argument in favor of banning that goddamn Technician Bullet Puncher? One layer of Stealth Rock on the field and Scizor can guaranteed KO my Togekiss. Is that fair? And if so, then why is that fair yet Aegislash's Shadow Sneak OHKOing a Starmie not fair?
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:18 PM   #2756
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I think in order to understand the clamor against Aegislash, you'd have to look at what it hard counters. When you figure out what OU's favorite play toy is that is rendered ineffective by Aegislash but not by Scizor or Dragonite, you have your answer.
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Old 07-12-2014, 03:26 PM   #2757
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I'm not too confident in actually posting in the thread at the moment, if I even can, but I'll say this. My ladder squad packed Special Aegi. Caladbolg, while a good performer, was doing no clinching whatsoever, that went more to Greninja and MegaChomp, the more powerhousey or verstile and ACTUALLY unpredictble types. Sure, Aegi could bust out a Sacred Sword on a Ferro, but it was gonna take lots of recoil And be left out in Blade Forme as Ferro is slower, giving it an opportunity to pack him away with EQ. Mega Chomp would just roast him in one Fire Blast and be done with it. And that's just one example. What I'm basically saying is, een from my minimal and lower level experience, Aegi will not be clinching wins, and against other common mons like Ferrothorn, needs to one shot, but usually cant, leaving it wide open. THIS IS AEGI'S DOWNFALL. Having an Aegi on the field is reason to move second, meaning this is the perfect time for slower mons to hit like a truck on Aegi while it's in Blade Forme. Remember, it can only hide behind King's Shield for so long. Say you're in Doubles, and you have a Taunt using Prankster Sabeleye on the field, and a Conkeldurr. Taunt Aegi the first turnso that it can't use KS next turn, spend Conkeldurr's turn on the other opponent, then next turn, watch as Aegi is forced into Blade Forme, only to be Megaton Fire Punched into oblivion. I only bring up this doubles scenario as im unsure f Conkeldurr can use Taunt itself. if it can, even better, and its possible to do it in Singles.

@ Talon: Don't even mention that technician Bullet Punch to me. If Aegi is toxic to OU as Smogon would like to say, this thing is Toxic left for a few turns, and that's talking from experience, not from your post. Even in the lower ladder, stuff like that is dangerous, and it makes having a Fire move and a decent attacking stat to go with it a win condition. Except its not banned because doing so is easy and will likely happen with no extra effort or thought. So why isn't that going to fly with Aegi, who has no Technician priority to abuse in the first place? Of course, if Aegi is banned, it will show a degradation in the overall common sense in Smogon and soon UU will be OU from all the bans. Feel free to share this for me if you'd like, as I'm sure they'll listen more to you, the consistent 1500s, rather than the fresh 1300s down here with a crap W:L.

But I can say this after all is said and done: I've used Aegi lots, and while he's good, he's no more broken than my first go to strat, Sitrus BellyJet.

And i found this is the OU chat just now. Aegi is OP my ass. They were discussing Bulletproof, but look at this. LOOK AT IT.

Oshony: 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 204-240 (53.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (plz go do ur own calcs maju, cannon=/= ball or bomb)

Edit 2: To avoid contagious stupid, avoid OU chatroom. The current residents believe MegaChomp is unstoppable and refuse to believe that Greninja is a counter and think "oh Earthquake is instant OHKO to Greninja." Maybe with sand, but otherwise, LOLNO.
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Old 07-12-2014, 05:51 PM   #2758
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I am perfectly happy to let people think that Greninja loses to Mega Garchomp. More OHKOs for me.

(Just did the calculation for fun and:
Quote:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 686-811 (191.6 - 226.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
191.6% HP damage at a minimum. lol Make it an Expert Belt and it's still 177%. Make it no item at all and it's 147.4%.)
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Old 07-12-2014, 06:21 PM   #2759
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252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 277-327 (96.8 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
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Old 07-12-2014, 06:28 PM   #2760
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Yes. And who goes first again? ;p

Anyway ...

"Your Trick Room? My Trick Room." (VGC 2014, 7 turns)

Spoiler: show
I could've also called this one 計画通り / All According To Plan. Though I'd be a slight liar if I said that: while I was prepared to let Gardevoir became paralyzed since she'd then be the fastest in Trick Room, it still wasn't something I wanted to see happen since paralysis hax is so powerful. But when I saw her gain that paralysis status, I said, "You know what? We wanted this. " And we sure benefited from it in the end!

More Mr. Magoo than All According To Plan was the turn where Talonflame used Brave Bird against Rotom-W. I had expected it to Brave Bird Gardevoir, hence the Protect on that turn. Had I known he was gunning for Rotom-W, I'd have ordered Gardevoir to use Dazzling Gleam that turn instead while keeping Rotom-W's orders the same. Oh well. It worked out for us in the end since SURPRISE DARK PULSE. O_o Usually the only special move I see out of Tyranitar is Ice Beam. This was a surprise.
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Old 07-12-2014, 06:44 PM   #2761
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I know, I was just showing Myles that it is, more often than not, an OHKO. However, if you're leaving your Greninja open to an attack from Megachomp, you're probably doing something wrong.
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Old 07-12-2014, 06:50 PM   #2762
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So I steeled myself up and expanded my rant to include a lot of this thread's discussion and posted in the thread for Aegi's test. I even added in a challenge. I basically said, "hey top dogs at Smogon! Here's my showdown name, come fight Caladbolg and have fun as you rip him apart! Guess what? He's an Aegislash."

Two likes so far. Why haven't I been flamed to death and or banned yet?
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:00 PM   #2763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
So I steeled myself up and expanded my rant to include a lot of this thread's discussion and posted in the thread for Aegi's test. I even added in a challenge. I basically said, "hey top dogs at Smogon! Here's my showdown name, come fight Caladbolg and have fun as you rip him apart! Guess what? He's an Aegislash."


This does more harm than good. You're not a very skilled player. Which means that you're giving pro-ban players the opportunity to execute the logical fallacy which goes, "Myles claims A; and I just played Myles and clobbered him; therefore Myles's opinions are incorrect; and therefore it's not A but -A which is correct." It doesn't change the fact that they're committing a logical fallacy if they do this, but we've already seen how susceptible this crowd is to poorly-reasoned arguments that superficially resemble well-reasoned ones backed up by evidence.

Worse, your post is riddled with poor understanding of the metagame. When I brought up Scizor earlier, it was because I was comparing Smogon's actions of 2012 and the metagame of 2012 with Smogon's actions of 2014 and the metagame of 2014. I never said, "Scizor today must be banned." That is lunacy given the current OU environment. You have Mega Charizard X in there. You have Talonflame. You have so, so many threats to Scizor which resist his Bullet Punches and fire back with OHKOs. You can see this in Scizor's current usage stats: while they're still respectable, they're also less than two-thirds of what they once were. 15.8% today versus the 27% he peaked at. In 2012? One in four teams ran Scizor. In 2014? Fewer than one in six teams run Scizor. I did mention how Scizor makes it impossible for Togekiss to thrive as well as she otherwise might -- but I specifically used that example as a reasoned argument against an Aegislash ban, not as evidence for a Scizor ban.

But worst of all, you write lines like this one:
Quote:
Of course, if Aegi is banned, it will show a degradation in the overall common sense in Smogon in my mind and I will gladly abandon this sinking ship for Poké Battle.
as though you expect them to pack any persuasive punch. No. "Who the fuck is ARandomNoob? And why should I as a Smogon moderator care if he's threatening to abandon the site if we don't do as he says? Fuck him -- let him quit!" That's how the staff is going to approach lines like this one.

Quote:
And so can my Empoleon!
So much facepalm again here when I read this line. Because:
Code:
| 112  | Empoleon           |  0.55022% | 51714  |  1.113% | 42311  |  1.149% |
Do you know what those numbers are? Those are Empoleon's usage stats. He ranks 112th in OU, embarrassing, showing up on only one out of every two hundred teams. Pokémon seen in OU more commonly than Empoleon include:
  • Shuckle (95th)
  • Kabutops (63rd)
  • Alomomola (108th)
See, it's because you write things like this that no one on the staff is going to take your post seriously. Like I'm saying ... I know you mean well, but posts like yours do more harm than good to the anti-ban side. It's best to leave the arguments to people who actually know what they're talking about and who have the scores to back it up.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:35 PM   #2764
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>Empoleon
That was the point, bring up a mon that most laugh at and apply their logic and show them that it would, by their logic, make Empoleon Banworthy.

My challenge was to show that Aegi is not broken. My entire argument was to show that he's EASY TO BEAT ANYWAY. This is why I said come clobber him, see how easy he really is to beat with stuff that's everywhere.

->going to pokebattle
When did I say I expected that to pack a persuasive punch? I didn't. Offhand remark more than anything.

>Scizor

Did you READ that entire paragraph? Because what your countering me with is all of what I talked about in there: he WOULD be dangerous as fuck, except Fire is everywhere. So why ban Aegi when it's weaknesses are everywhere in the SAME MANNER?
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:00 PM   #2765
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Quote:
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My challenge was to show that Aegi is not broken. My entire argument was to show that he's EASY TO BEAT ANYWAY. This is why I said come clobber him, see how easy he really is to beat with stuff that's everywhere.
A five-year old boy approaches you. He claims that Primal Kyogre should be allowed in OU. You scoff at him, but he insists he's right. "And I'll prove it to you!" he proclaims. "Battle me and you will see." You know he's wrong but you agree to battle him anyway. You win the battle easily; while Primal Kyogre would be a terror in an older, more experienced player's hands, in the hands of this five-year old boy it is no better than a mere Swirlix. The boy grins at you after the match. "See?" he says. "I told you Primal Kyogre wasn't such a big deal." A brief pause. "So ..." he asks you, "... you gonna unban Primal Kyogre in OU now? "

Would you be convinced by this experience that the boy was right and that Primal Kyogre is okay to allow in OU? Or would you instead conclude either:
  1. that the boy threw the match
  2. that the boy sucked and that his skill is no proper indicator of how good Primal Kyogre really is
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:04 PM   #2766
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I'm not going do dignify that with a response. A, a five year old in comp is something to marvel at in the first place, and B, I am VERY offended that you're essentially equating me to a five year old,
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:06 PM   #2767
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Your OU rank is maybe 1300. The people in that thread laugh at anyone below 1750. You are that five year old to them, like it or not. (And for the record, so would be I.)
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:08 PM   #2768
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Well at least they have the dignity to not mention it, and counter my arguments with something at least quasi legitimate rather than "lolusucknub"
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:11 PM   #2769
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First, anyone with your scores and skill is as good as a five-year old in the staff's eyes. They're not going to respect arguments, however well-reasoned they may be, from people who lack the necessary scores. We saw that with the SwagPlay ban this past winter. Even if people spoke the truth, the staff found their arguments unpersuasive as they came from newly-registered members with low Elos in OU.

Second, you do not seem to understand how unpersuasive your challenge is. Even if you can trust yourself, no one else has any reason to trust you. You're a stranger with fewer than twenty posts on their forum and a poor OU record. Even if they want to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your skill as a trainer, why should they not believe that an incredible loss suffered by you against their team was not the result of you deliberately throwing the match to prove your point?
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:17 PM   #2770
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When you offend someone, the next step isn't to offend them more, Talon. If you want to accuse me of throwing a match, don't do it in my presence, as I will lose lots of respect I had for you. Sure, call me inexperienced, but NEVER accuse me of unethical practices that I never do. That's should go for anyone, pick and choose your words carefully.
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:38 PM   #2771
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I haven't accused you of throwing any matches. I've stated that no one in the suspect discussion thread has any reason to trust that you won't. Do you not understand this? The test you submitted to them -- "Fight me, watch me lose, and become convinced that I am speaking the truth!" -- is not going to be persuasive to anyone on Smogon's staff. Not when it's coming from someone with your scores and skills. Even a stranger with excellent scores they would be right to suspect.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Wherein Water Spout becomes Water Piddle. (VGC 2014, 4 turns)

Spoiler: show
Quoting the relevant battle text from Turn 4:
Quote:
Brynhildr used SolarBeam!
Brynhildr absorbed light!
It's super effective! The opposing Blastoise lost 95.9–99.9% of its health!

The opposing Blastoise used Water Spout!
It's super effective! Brynhildr lost 0.6% of its health!
Irisviel lost 0.7% of its health!
Amazing. I can't know for certain, but just looking at his health bar, it looks like he had exactly 1 HP left. I'd wanted to ask him if that was the case but alas he exited the room before the last of the text had finished showing up. Anyway, whether it was one HP or seven, check out how little damage his Water Spout did in intense sunlight at such low health! 0.6% HP damage to Charizard! To a Charizard!
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Old 07-12-2014, 10:48 PM   #2772
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You're still insinuating that Inwould in the first place, and I don't think Smogon staff is going to think I'm throwing a match. After all, I said that I specifically have tried to improve recently. I don't think that implies game throwing in any way.

But I AM laughing like hell at that Water Spout. 0.6% on a CHARIZARD, OMG my sides I'm dying
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:05 PM   #2773
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How About a Warstory to Break the Tension?

*Waltzes in*

An Utter Haxfest

Spoiler: show
So I decided to take a break from the suspect ladder as the team Im using isnt prepared for Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir, and a friend said hed help me make a team. So I decided to go to the normal OU ladder, and found out that in less than a weeks time, my account had dropped almost 40 points. wtf. Anyways, I won and lost, then came across this fucking guy. Semi Stall with Support Toge, TankZard, CBBNite, SpDef Gliscor, and SubToxic Aegislash. Great. So I lead with mamo.

Turn 1: I get up rocks while he burns me. At the time I didnt know if it was TankZard or not, so I went for rocks incase he was trying for an early game sweep (Im sashed btw). So not good for me.

Turn 2: He doubles to Toge while I switch in Keldeo. Once again Im in a disadvantageous position.

Turn 3: I burn him while he Air Slashes.

Turn 5: He Heal Bells. Great. Now I knew for sure that this was semistall.

Turn 9: He blocks my Volt Switch with Gliscor. Okay, thats fine. Ill just spam Hydro Pump... till it misses 2 turns later. Wonderful. Next turn he Toxics my Lando-T, which comes into play later.

Turn 14: I get Mamo in and Icicle Spear him, only for him to recover pretty much all the HP he lost -_-

Turn 21: Aegis kills Keldeo, scoring the first blood and killing what was my main win condition. Wasnt complaining too much about him being "OP" at all. Next turn hes revenge killed by Pinsir, which was my secondary win condition.

Turn 23: He sends in Crocune, which doesnt bother me in the slightest.... untill he crits me.... and burns me.... Now Im getting pissed off irl. Next Turn Pinsir dies to Scald while I do a measly 40% to him.

Turn 25: I predict the switch to Gliscor on the "obvious" Volt Switch. At this point, I have two Pokemon down and two more crippled. Not looking good for me. At all. Turns 26 and 26 are him stalling out Hydro Pump. Luckily I hit both and get him down to 22%.

Turn 29: I burn his Dragonite. This saves me later on. I then Volt Switch to Lando next turn.

Turn 30-35: I spam Rock Slide against DNite in hopes for a flinch. Instead I get a miss turn 32 and a dead Lando turn 35 thanks to the aforementioned Toxic.

So now its 5-3 him. I have a burned Mamoswine at 38%, a full health Latias, and Rotom at 78%. Not good.

Turn 36: Things start to go in my favor. I Draco while he sends in Togekiss. Not bothered since SR dropped her down to 30%. Next turn I psyshock her ded. Now its 4-3 him.

Turn 38: Crocune is sent in. Rox drop him down to 47%. I calc Draco and sure enough its enough to KO Crocune at this range. I click it, he dies. Now things are starting to turn in my favor. I now have a new win condition: Mamoswine. If I can get the Healing Wish off I win. Its tied 3-3.

Turn 39: I recall Latias and send in Rotom who takes a Will o Wisp. Not particularly bother cuz its ChestoRest and I can use that if I need to.

Turn 41: For whatever reason he sends GLiscor into Rotom. My guess is he miscounted Hydros, as I had one left. It connects, and Gliscor is ded. Now its 3-2 me and things are starting to look good for me.

Turn 42: I get the Slow Volt switch off on Xard, which allows me a safe switch in to Latias. I KO him next turn with Draco. At this point I have the match in the bag. Its 3-1 me and alls he has left is DNite.

Turn 43: I make a fatal mistake. Instead of Healing Wishing to Mamoswine, I switch into Rotom, who is out of Hydro Pumps. Its DNite at 86% vs. Rotom, and Im faster. Fuck. I do the only thing I can which is to Volt Switch. My safest play is to go into Latias. I cant risk mamo dying (tho in Hind Sight Draco was a OHKO so theres that). He Dragon Claws, and Latias is now at 12%. She then dies to Extreme Speed. Now Im panicking. Its 2-1 me, but he still has a clear advantage. So I do the one thing I can to prevent roost stall which is to switch in my burned Mamoswine which is at 38% health.

Turn 47: I hope and pray for a decent damage roll. If I get 2 hits, he can potentially live and Roost to win. I click Icicle Spear, and I get a good roll, and end up winning. Holy fuck that was probably one of my hardest wins ever. I save the replay then leave. He left first so I couldnt say gg.


*Waltzes out*
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:14 PM   #2774
Heather
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Nice going, Clone. While I'm not interested in a 40 something turn match in watching it, I can say that Talon's Water Spout fiasco was enough to break the tension.

But a lot of the current Aegi ban discussion in the thread could use this replay with how BEAUTIFULLY you handle Aegi with my man a mega Pinsir. A brilliant performance indeed.
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:19 PM   #2775
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Myles, he's not saying or insinuating that you would do anything, he's purely trying to put you in the mindset of the people you were "challenging" They wouldn't have any reason to believe you wouldn't do something like throw the match. At least, if I'm understanding Talon correctly.
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