American Politics

[Emi]

Originally Posted by Shuckle

You think Trump moving centrist involves him changing his stance on immigration?

Do you know what "moving centrist" means?

Yes, but do you know what "condescending" means? I hope so.

Anyways, he can't move central without getting rid of his image as a hard-line say what I want person. His immigration policies and gun control policies NEED to soften if he's to win over the moderate vote, because those are the policies that gain the most attention. He's not doing that, so I don't think he's trying.

I don't see evidence of any of this in my posts. I don't fanboy over Trump and I don't think he's infallible.

In fact I was whining about his mistakes from the very beginning. Holding his cards too tightly, making a stance about teleprompters that nobody cares about, kicking things off by attracting race-related attention, etc. He's made messes in his political campaign.

Those were all points you made at the very beginning, but as of late you've been weaving everything he does or says in a positive light. Need I not mention your deleted post which was a massive leap of mental gymnastics or "Trump will singlehandedly end racism".

I'm pretty sure the only reason that you're saying that I'm "UM levels of bad" is because I refuse to agree with you that Trump is racist based off of your feelings on the matter.

No its because you have a confirmation bias the size of a black hole.

Trump isn't going to change his mind on immigration, he's just going to talk more about ways in which he is moderate or even liberal.

Too bad he's not, and at this point in the campaign with about two months left to go, he really isn't going to changing his image without changing his biggest points so far.

He can't look moderate by mentioning a couple small things on the side when he's spent the entire time looking like a hard-line conservative.

[Zelphon]

Trump is dumb, his supporters are dumber.

#DemocratMasterRace
#FirstAmendment
#BasicallyWhatEveryoneElseIsSayingWithoutTryingToS eemIntelligent.
#AboutAsQualityAPostWhenYouThinkAboutIt

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Slash

So, I don't overly keep up with current events, so I just yesterday heard about the whole controversy with Kaepernick. I know most of us aren't very sportsy, but I don't think I saw anyone here mention it, and it might be a good change of pace from talking to death the innumerable low points of Drumpf.

So, an athlete not standing for the anthem: Right? Wrong? Well-intentioned but not the proper forum? Acceptable act but for the wrong reasons? Does his net worth make it irrelevant?

Kaepernick's protest itself is irrelevant. Instead, what to focus on is the circus it spawned.

The most important thing it revealed, on top of everything else corrupt about the NFL, is that it is the most racist organization in sports, and is also probably white supremacist. Black people exist just to entertain the blue collar, white man audience that enjoys football. They should absolutely not offend the white man's culture in any way.

Currently, super patriotism - bordering jingo - is considered the norm in Republican leaning, blue collar, white guy circles. If you don't support the troops, you're a terrorist (this isn't much of an exaggeration). The coded language in not being patriotic for the anthem is not supporting the troops. So suddenly, Kaepernick is the devil. The ultra white jock response from the NFL brass is incriminating.

What makes Kaepernick's protest more powerful is that he's a well known, post-hype, not very good quarterback. If Kaepernick is good, his protest is dismissed as a privilege granted by the rest of the league for him being good. Such privileges include Ben Rothislberger getting away with a rape where his bodyguard held down the girl so he could penetrate her, or the laundry list of DV incidents Roger Goddell suppressed for white football players. Fans would dismiss it, the NFL would dismiss it.

But because Kaepernick is bad, people pay attention and react to it as if he hasn't "earned" the right to make a show of himself like that. And so it gets people to debate the protest honestly, and not dismiss it as the privilege of a super athlete.

Ultimately, I think it was a great thing. Kaepernick is in trouble, but he's a true patriot.

[Stealthy]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

What makes Kaepernick's protest more powerful is that he's a well known, post-hype, not very good quarterback. If Kaepernick is good, his protest is dismissed as a privilege granted by the rest of the league for him being good.

Well, unless you're on the Patriots.

[Doppleganger]

You're talking about deflategate, right?

Even then, things don't add up. Deflategate is cheating to win the Super Bowl. That's within the scope of control of the NLF itself.

Meanwhile, protesting the anthem is something off the field. And the NFL's response has been monstrous.

There are probably going to be deniers about the NFL being deeply racist.

I point to the Washington Redskins.

[Mercutio]

I don't really understand why this has made the UK news. America is more nationalist as a political culture so it makes sense that people there care but why should I care that some player of a sport no-one plays here doesn't sing the anthem. If a footballer didn't sing the anthem I'd simply assume he couldn't use multi syllable words.

[Doppleganger]

I'm pretty sure the UK loves American Football.

Pretty sure the Leave voters and blue collar fans are the same demographic, though not in the same geographic.

[Emi]

Doesn't the UK like rugby a lot more and general regard handegg as a joke?

...maybe its the Brits I've been associating with

[Stealthy]

There's a decent enough following that the NFL has bandied about having a London based team, but never that seriously. They also play a couple games in the UK as well.

[deoxys]

Dopple, I just wanted to say that I completely agree with you. You killed it.


(damn, I broke my streak of not posting in this thread.. 18 days... was hoping to go a lot longer than that )

[Mercutio]

People in London quite like it but basically everywhere else it isn't seen as a real sport for obvious reasons.

[Slash]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

The most important thing it revealed, on top of everything else corrupt about the NFL, is that it is the most racist organization in sports, and is also probably white supremacist. Black people exist just to entertain the blue collar, white man audience that enjoys football. They should absolutely not offend the white man's culture in any way.

I completely agree. I think a lot of people forget these athletes are actual people and not just ideas or numbers on a screen. The fact that this controversy (which I still am not sure why it's even controversial from any reasonable viewpoint) has brought light to a problem we all know exists but a lot of people don't want to talk about or acknowledge is very important.

[QUOTE]Currently, super patriotism - bordering jingo - is considered the norm in Republican leaning, blue collar, white guy circles. If you don't support the troops, you're a terrorist (this isn't much of an exaggeration). The coded language in not being patriotic for the anthem is not supporting the troops. So suddenly, Kaepernick is the devil. The ultra white jock response from the NFL brass is incriminating.[QUOTE]

I'm not sure you can call it bordering jingo. I think it well crossed that already.

I think by now quite a few people here know of my disdain for the fairly meaningless exercise of things like the pledge of allegiance. Not only does it become entirely meaningless when done without thought as if going through the motions (and in fact, doing it on autopilot is far more disrespectful than opting out), it's also an absolutely horrifying display of nationalism. And I think that's really the key word, too. The sacred, zealous fervour that the primary Republican base put into anything involving or representing the flag is not patriotism, it's straight-out nationalism. I'm not saying patriotism does not exist, but many, possibly even most, self-proclaimed "patriots" are nothing but nationalists using a word with a positive connotation instead of a negative one that is more correct.

Ultimately, I think it was a great thing. Kaepernick is in trouble, but he's a true patriot.

Again, while I have some deep reservations about use of such a term, I have to agree he's far more patriotic in the real sense than most "true patriots" are. He stood up (or rather, sat) for something he believed in, knowing full well there could and likely would be consequences, and chose to stay firm in his beliefs rather than cave.

As another note, I have to say, I've found one aspect particularly interesting. The kind of people who support Trump for "telling it like it is" (even though he provably doesn't), not caring about being politically correct, and having a major point in his campaign about America not being great (how else would one make it great again?) are seemingly the largest portion of people who are calling out Kaepernick (calling him a traitor, burning his jerseys, trying to get him fired, and even, as per your link, comparing him to a man who killed a woman late in pregnancy) for actually telling it like it is, doing something not deemed politically correct, and having a reasonable point about problems in America. Which super heavily also overlaps with the circles who constantly spout "liberals are too damn offended at everything", and feel their freedom of expression and speech should also given them freedom from consequence of it.

Originally Posted by Mercutio

People in London quite like it but basically everywhere else it isn't seen as a real sport for obvious reasons.

What would these obvious reasons be?

[Ironthunder]

Because in most places it's seen as, and I quote from actual people here, 'Rugby for pussies because they have padding and have to stop play every ten seconds'.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Slash

I'm not sure you can call it bordering jingo. I think it well crossed that already.

I think by now quite a few people here know of my disdain for the fairly meaningless exercise of things like the pledge of allegiance. Not only does it become entirely meaningless when done without thought as if going through the motions (and in fact, doing it on autopilot is far more disrespectful than opting out), it's also an absolutely horrifying display of nationalism. And I think that's really the key word, too. The sacred, zealous fervour that the primary Republican base put into anything involving or representing the flag is not patriotism, it's straight-out nationalism. I'm not saying patriotism does not exist, but many, possibly even most, self-proclaimed "patriots" are nothing but nationalists using a word with a positive connotation instead of a negative one that is more correct.

I wouldn't call it true jingo because it isn't real patriotism, and really isn't much different from the fanaticism out of the Islamic State.

What is defined as "patriotic" in the United States is really just a a pattern of heavily choreographed, acceptable public behaviours of white blue collar origin.

"support the troops" for example, is a meme. That movement began as a reversal of the negative treatment the military received from their involvement in Vietnam, paired with the crushing defeat of the Baaths in the Gulf War.

But people who profess to "support the troops" are not really interested in helping out broken former military, they're interested in the superficial elements - the uniforms, the music, the parades. They shy away from the truth and brutality of war.

It makes me think of television, honestly. One of the things that bothers me about where I live now is there is a giant cigar store Indian Chief statue downtown, in an area with a high Native American population. The area itself is willfully trying to project its own interpretation of the world on reality, instead of trying to accept reality and change in response to it. With movements like inner city gentrification going on, they're actually managing to transform their distorted vision into reality.

Originally Posted by Slash

As another note, I have to say, I've found one aspect particularly interesting. The kind of people who support Trump for "telling it like it is" (even though he provably doesn't), not caring about being politically correct, and having a major point in his campaign about America not being great (how else would one make it great again?) are seemingly the largest portion of people who are calling out Kaepernick (calling him a traitor, burning his jerseys, trying to get him fired, and even, as per your link, comparing him to a man who killed a woman late in pregnancy) for actually telling it like it is, doing something not deemed politically correct, and having a reasonable point about problems in America. Which super heavily also overlaps with the circles who constantly spout "liberals are too damn offended at everything", and feel their freedom of expression and speech should also given them freedom from consequence of it.

I'm not in that camp, though a cautious Trump supporter. While I don't like a lot of what Trump says, I have been frustrated by communities where political correctness has been twisted into an weapon to force toeing the line for certain dogmas.

Here's an example of that, taken from a certain blog:

Spoiler: show

Originally Posted by Brand

The conversat1on w1th XXX made me real1ze that cops are more l1kely to unjustly k1ll a black man due to the stereotype that the1r race 1s 1nherently more dangerous than other ethn1c1t1es. Wh1le th1s 1s unquest1onably a problem, 1 bel1eve the recent k1ll1ng of aforement1oned wh1te man shows that the prev1ous k1ll1ngs (Ph1lando Cast1lle, Alton Sterl1ng) were lapses 1n judgement and could potent1ally be addressed by more eff1c1ent tra1n1ng and embedd1ng the 1dea that pull1ng a gun 1s a last resort.

Originally Posted by EP

No, the problem is institutional racism.

Originally Posted by Brand

There are many problems

Black people not gett1ng the same chance at educat1on, hav1ng a h1gher rate of poverty, etc. attr1butes to the stereotype that they are a more dangerous race. Every man 1s born more or less equal; the book "Just Mercy" showed me that the upbr1ng1ng of any g1ven person d1rectly dec1des the1r cr1m1nal outcome. Th1s 1s a major, major 1ssue that w1ll take effort and t1me to f1x, whereas an 1ncreased deterrence for cops to pull out the1r guns (wh1ch can be 1mplemented 1n tra1n1ng) could be 1ntroduced much qu1cker.

Let me make th1s clear: there’s no one cause for th1s 1ssue.

Originally Posted by EP

It’s a weird coincidence that you keep wellactuallying rac1sm.

Originally Posted by Drunk

Every man is born more or less equal

Not really

Originally Posted by Slap

Every man is born more or less equal

You must be white.

Responses like this are what give ammo to those who oppose political correctness. You have a guy here expressing a clear anti-racist message, but he did so in an inelegant way that could be construed to mean he's white and dismissing police violence if you make a set of certain assumptions. Which is exactly what the other posters did, and even made accusations about his race from the content of the post.

This is common. This blog isn't even political, it's dedicated to baseball. But it's reflective of the community these posters are drawn from, and you can imagine how some of the Trump supporters feel confronted with that. Most don't have very thick skin for this kind of grilling.

[Mercutio]

Largely because if people are even dimly aware of NFL's existence it's because of the Superbowl, which accentuates the perception that nothing happens in the game and it's just a load of drunk fat idiots watching endless adverts whilea load of helmet wearing morons do very little for hours on end..

[Mozz]

Soccer/football is incredibly boring fwiw

[Muyotwo]

Originally Posted by Mozz

Soccer/football is incredibly boring fwiw

This is the only time you'll ever see me agree with Mozz in the politics thread.

[Connor]

I think the bigger disgrace regarding the protest is that the local police have threatened to withdraw protection for his teams games.

These guys are literally saying that they will refuse to uphold one of the primary tenets of their job because someone is protesting about the fact that the American police as a generic organisation are almost provably racist as fuck.

[Mozz]

The cops are pussies.
Black Lives Matter is based on a lie, and CK is being dragged by his nuts by his lunatic Muslim girlfriend.
Miss you, Nicky.

[Shuckle]

I just wanna say I'm following this thread and I like what I'm hearing for the most part. Good insight.

It doesn't involve government so I'm lost for the most part, but I do want to throw in that tribalism dominates non-governmental politics. Organizations like the NFL are right-leaning, but not in the sense that they are conservative. Instead, they belong to what I like to call the "Red Team"; they are part of a subculture that divides the country mostly in half. Or thirds, if you consider moderates like me as a whole other team. The Gray Team? The Purple Team?

The Blue Team is stronger, better educated, and more effective than the Red Team, but the Red Team takes up more geographical space and has a stronger sense of community (which means their ideas are more unified and consistent - ex. pretty much ever Republican hot-button issue is exactly the same thing underneath the surface, whereas every Democrat hot-button issue is slightly different and affects something slightly different).

The disconnect Dopple is talking about in part comes from the fact that the Red Team has to stand for America and patriotism (and, funnily enough, the Blue Team has to set itself against America and patriotism. Look at Slash's post. Now, because the Democrats have the White House, this has lessened, but if Trump becomes a miracle worker and secures the election, even if things get better for minorities and women, we'll see a lot of complaining from Blue Team talking heads about the same old anti-nationalist rhetoric). Not saying the pledge automatically puts you on the Blue Team.

There is nothing the Blue Team hates more than the Red Team, and vice versa. You guys fucking hate Trump, you fucking hate the deeply racist NFL board, you fucking hate nationalist conservatism, you fucking hate racism and racial inequality, and you fucking hate the stupid ass Republicans who keep electing stupid backwards fucks like Ted Cruz to office in the belief that he'll put prayer back into schools. Meanwhile, the Red Team fucking hates social justice, welfare safety nets, etc. etc.

Now this might have not been a problem if Kaepernick was a white dude (I do doubt that racism is the whole story, but there's no denying that he's only taking this kind of heat because he is black), but because he was protesting a Blue Team issue by performing a Blue Team action, he would have gotten ripped to shreds in a similar way. There's no two ways about it; when your whole viewer base + the people at the top are GodnGunz Christians, you either play nice with the Red Team or you fucking go home.

[Doppleganger]

The more I think about it, the more I see "corporate greed" as an oxymoron.

Such would be like calling a pet such as a cat a glutton, because you the owner put too much food in front of it.

[Rangeet]

Please remember to register to vote.

[Heather]

Also, if you're not going to be around your polling place, remember to get your absentee ballot! For those of us in Maryland, Here's the first form you need.

[Snorby]

Lucky bastards getting to vote ;(

[Doppleganger]

This could be a cross post with going to hecK:

omgwtfbbq