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Old 06-12-2009, 09:23 AM   #276
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The problem I have with the frontiers is that there are only very few of them which I'm interested in. If all seven were fun, then great. But ...
Spoiler: show
I think my interests are more or less in keeping with most other people's. I've only seen the ones in Emerald, so what I'm talking about may not apply to Platinum.

I like the facility where you have to use stock Pokémon, that one's fun. And I like the Battle Dome where it's like a college basketball tournament.

That's pretty much it for the likes. I tolerate the Battle Tower and the Battle Pyramid. The latter could be fun except for the excessively-frequent wild Pokémon encounters. The Battle Tower's problem is that it stretches on for way too long and is obligatorily 3 x 3. If you only fought one trainer at a time before collecting a prize, and if the game kept track of your consecutive wins and increased your booty and your next opponent's difficulty accordingly, then it'd be great. Especially if that one trainer at a time who you're fighting was somebody with 6 Pokemon. Sure, the battle might last 10, 15, 20 minutes, but by the end of it you could get 1 BP as a consolation prize if you lost but knocked out at least 4 of his 6 Pokemon and you could get 2 BP for beating his entire team. Then the next guy you fight, 2 and 3. Next guy, 3 and 5. Next guy, 5 and 8. Next guy, 8 and 13. They'd get increasingly more difficult to justify the BP payouts, and the moment you lose, you'd be back to Square One, fighting for 1 BP or 2 BP tops against Trainer #1. But since this is all just a fantasy in my mind and not how the Battle Tower really operates, it's more trouble to enter a Tower contest than it's worth.

And then we have the dislikes. The Seviper one is just retarded because it's hardly a "battle frontier." You just choose random doors and either get healed, hurt, or fight a single trainer. Sort of lame. More like a typical gym than a battle frontier, if you ask me, and not a very fun gym at that. Then there's the mansion. >_< Boy, oh boy do I hate that mansion. It's just retarded! Having the AI decide how my Pokemon will fight based on their personalities? It's not awful if you have well-trained monsters that aren't tournament-worthy, but if you breed and raise monsters specifically for competitive play, then you're going to have tons of monsters with "the right IVs and the right natures" in theory who have really bad chances in that mansion once the AI gets its hands on them. Finally, there's the dojo. The dojo could have been good, but it's basically half-Battle Tower half-Contest Hall and because of that it's even worse than the already-disappointing Battle Tower. Again, the dojo could have been really fun if they let you fight one trainer at a time, and then perma-save and collect your prize, and then re-enter the tournament for Round 2 to get better and better prizes and fight tougher and tougher foes, etc. Instead, they make you fight too many people in a row before you get to the prize, and it's all too easy to play for hours and hours in that dojo and not even see 1 BP enter your coffers because of one bad luck experience after another. Pretty lame.


I agree with deoxys 100% that it's more fun to explore a new land than it is to obsess over tournament-style play. And there are lots of fixes that don't require you to say good-bye to your much-loved team from the main game. Like I mentioned, they could raise the levels. Like deoxys smartly mentioned, they could also make it so that in the add-on regions it auto-adjusts everybody's level to 50 (no matter where you really are) and that way every battle in that region can remain fun and challenging. As for the tournament-focused people, there are other ways to make the experience fun for them rather than a drag. Instead of looking at it like, "Aw man, if I want to get Jirachi I have to play for 80 hours!? This sucks!" they could look at it like, "Hey! The trainers in this region specifically have teams that give straight EVs of one kind!" (Like, for example, a trainer might have a grass-type, fire-type, psychic-type, and water-type but all four of them may provide +1 to +3 SpAtt effort.) For those of us playing for exploration, the region's fun to explore. For those playing for tournament stuff, they don't have to see it as forced punishment: they could see it as a welcome opportunity. "Fight grab bag EV trainers in Johto .......................... or fight single-category EV trainers in Hoenn? I know which one I'm going to pick! "
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:16 AM   #277
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Exactly. I think Vran and I agree.

New info today: It's now confirmed that all 493 Pokemon can walk behind your character, it's not limited to just starters. Screenshots have shown Wobbuffet, Steelix, and Kecleon walking behind the character.

Preorder for the games in Japan begin July 4, and if you preorder HG you get Ho-oh figure, and SS a Lugia figure, and if both, an Arceus figure.

New Jirachi is obtained via downloads at Lv 5 with Wish, Rest, Confusion, and Draco Meteor and holding a Liechi berry.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:05 AM   #278
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Links are always nice to include.
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There are screenshots of Steelix, Wobbuffet and Kecleon following the games character.
I was excited ... and then crushed to discover that they've done a worse job with this than ChunSoft did with Mystery Dungeon. Even ChunSoft was smart enough to make Onix and Steelix much larger on the map than other monsters. But GameFreak? Retards, the lot of 'em. -_-; The fans have to bludgeon them over the heads with good ideas for years before they show up in the games and then when they finally do? These maroons still find ways to mess things up! Why is Steelix as big as Hiroki? Why!? It makes no sense. NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Spare me the "they have to do it, it's the DS" or "they have to do it, it's the game engine" talk. If ChunSoft could figure out a way to have some Pokemon look small and others massive, I should very much hope that GameFreak could figure it out too.

*cough* , aesthetic rant aside, I'm stoked. It's great to see that all of them can follow you. It'll look dumb for the larger ones since they're gonna be scrunched but for the ones that are 2 feet to 5 feet tall it should look pretty snazzy. Man, oh man!

Quote:
You can turn to your Pokémon at any time and get some sort of dialogue with them to see when they're happy or in trouble.
Yeeeees! One of the cutest aspects to Pokémon Yellow makes a triumphant return! And for every Pokémon, no less! Sweet.

Quote:
The map of Johto in the background confirms that the game heads east towards Kanto and shows Route 28 by Mt. Silver. It also shows a new area has appeared just west of the National Park. It is unknown what this place is.
ZoraJolteon can be a pessimist as much he would like, but the evidence just keeps mounting for the inclusion of Hoenn in HGSS. Think about it: Kanto is east of Johto, and in real life Kantou is east of Kansai. Johto would therefore theoretically be NE of Hoenn if Hoenn corresponds to Kyuushuu since NE/SW is the relationship between the Kyuushuu and Kansai regions.

As much as I hate Johto , if HGSS really does include Kanto and Hoenn, I'm prepared to go with the flow and agree that these games could very well be the best ones yet. Not because of Johto though , but because of 3-years-later Kanto and ???-years-earlier Hoenn.

Come to think of it ... if they do include Hoenn, we won't be seeing either Norman or Flannery. Norman hadn't moved the family to Hoenn yet, and Flannery was a teen when we last saw her so she'd probably be way too young to be a gym leader in HGSS. We probably won't see Stephen Stone either for similar reasons. And we wouldn't see Glacia in the Elite 4, and probably not Will (the newbie) either. Add all this up and it suggests that Hoenn is much more prepared for gym leader shake-ups than Kanto was (and hence why the only gym leader who was replaced was Koga, who replaced ... I forget. Was it Agatha or Bruno that got the axe?).

I can hear ZoraJolteon champing his teeth already. Say what you will: maybe GameFreak is, for whatever reason, putting art before profit. Maybe they want fans to be talking about this game for years and for that reason alone it'd be worth it to them to include not one but two additional lands.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:36 AM   #279
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Agatha got the axe, as did Loreli. They were replaced by Koga and Will.

If it does turn out to be a three region game, people will be talking about it for years alright; how they ruined the experience that was GSC. Having Kanto tacked on was bad enough.

I stand by what I said before; the problem with multiple regions is that the extra regions cut out a lot of the reasons to play pokemon in the first place. A region is good for three things; storyline, new pokemon, and a new challenge.

By the time you've got 8 badges, your team is pretty much set, and wild pokes are so low levelled that it's a major timesink to train up a new team member. One reason gone.

Without a major plot overhaul, there's essentially no plot after Johto. Reason two gone.

That leaves just the challenge factor, which as I said can be better met by a series of challenges that don't rely on typespam; a battle frontier. Moreover, extra regions drive down the levels of the earlier regions, making them seem shorter and far less challenging (vis a vis Johto in the original GSC thanks to Kanto). In the original GSC, it felt like they just tacked Kanto on for no good reason; nothing interesting happened, and it could be beaten in a hour, two tops. It was just a straight gym slog.

IMHO, the Sevii Islands were a perfect example of what an extra area should be. It was reasonably challenging, short enough that Kanto's levels were unaffected, and continued the TR plotline in an interesting way. Unlike the Kanto gym challenge in GSC, it wasn't just a two hour max typespam fest.

Do away with Kanto, I say. Forget Hoenn, few of us liked it in the first place anyway. Give us a new area; one with a decent challenge, an interesting continuation to the storyline, and small enough that Johto can finally become a proper region in its own right, with an ungimped gym leaders and it's own league rather than piggybacking Kanto's.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:41 AM   #280
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Sorry I gotta disagree. GSC was my favorite because it included Kanto, and that's why RuSa failed hardcore. New boring area and our old favorite 2 areas were ditched until the remakes.

Since the DSi kicked out advance support, we all knew this was coming anyway, there needed to be a DS Hoenn.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:58 AM   #281
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Old 06-12-2009, 12:35 PM   #282
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Sorry I gotta disagree. GSC was my favorite because it included Kanto, and that's why RuSa failed hardcore. New boring area and our old favorite 2 areas were ditched until the remakes.

Since the DSi kicked out advance support, we all knew this was coming anyway, there needed to be a DS Hoenn.
If there's a major plotline overhaul so there's actually something interesting going on after Johto, and Kanto is altered so you can't just run around and finish it in an hour or two, I'll welcome its return with open arms. As it stands, because of Kanto's brevity and Johto's shortness due to the inclusion of Kanto, I actually finish GSC faster than any other pokemon game, despite it having twice as many badges.
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Old 06-12-2009, 01:56 PM   #283
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I AM TOTALLY BUYING A GAMESHARK SO I CAN HACK A KECLEON IN TO THE GAME AND ADVENTURE WITH KOI~

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Old 06-12-2009, 02:04 PM   #284
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But am I going to be able to tell if the Hippowdon following me is male or female?
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Old 06-12-2009, 02:49 PM   #285
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I think Concept is correct that the inclusion of multiple regions plays down the specialness of Johto.

And I'm 100% all for it.

Spoiler: show
I began to explain why, and realized I was repeating myself from earlier in this thread-turned-flame war-turned-thread again, so I'll spare you my hate for GSC and love for RBY and RSE and ask you to re-read what I wrote last time if you need a refresher (with off-topic posts omitted for the most part):
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Long story short, Johto is my least favorite region and so I can only perceive the inclusion of superior regions to Johto as a boon. Johto appears to be your favorite region. Furthermore, you're pegging your hopes on HGSS being for GS what FRLG were for RGB. In other words, you want the games to respect who the true belle of the ball is, and it'll upset you if too many other attractive dames show up and steal attention away from Miss Johto.

The thing is though, if Johto really is the prettiest girl at the dance, then you should have nothing to worry about if other girls show up. The fact that you very nearly spell out that the inclusion of Kanto ruined Gold and Silver for you tells me that you actually recognize that most people prefer Kanto to Johto and since you don't it upsets you if Johto can't shine on stage all by herself. It's sort of like saying that a concert hall could book Shania Twain for 7pm-9pm and Alison Krausse for 10:30pm-12:30am and as a Shania Twain fan it would ruffle your feathers that she didn't have the stage all to herself all night. O_o Does it really affect you if Kanto is added on? Just don't play there! Reset the game each time you beat the Elite 4 instead of resetting each time you beat Red. Or if you never reset, then don't reset this time either and just never get on the bullet train to Saffron or the S.S. Anne to Vermilion.

I mean, I even asked myself the very same question! "What if they made a new game in 2015 that was a spruced-up version of Ruby and Sapphire? But what if this game included Kanto, Johto, and Sinnoh as extra regions? What if you played through Hoenn first and fought low-level trainers, and it wasn't until Johto that you got to the Level 90 folks?" And you know what my honest immediate reaction to that was? "*internal chuckle*, SO!? Who cares!?" Pokemon are Pokemon no matter which continent they're on or what level they're at. I'll always hate Stantler and Hoothoot and I'll always love Beldum and Torchic. Whether Hoenn's an appetizer, a main course, or a dessert, I'm always going to enjoy eating it. And conversely the same is true for Johto! Appetizer, main course, or dessert, it makes no difference: I'm always going to be the kid making the funny gagging face as she eats spinach and rutabaga when it comes to playing through Johto. Shouldn't the same thing be true for you with HGSS?
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:07 PM   #286
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For me, the biggest reason to include extra regions isn't just the cities themselves. It's the characters. Nothing pleases me more than appropriate use of cameos, and I think GameFreak actually proved themselves quite capable of this with Kanto last time we saw it as an add-on. Most of the gym leaders treated Hiroki like they would treat any fresh face. Those trainers, like Misty and Brock, were fun for fans to see just for us being able to see them at all. (I remember only too well how the testosterone on the forum drove many of the boys to compare Misty's GS boobs to her RBY ones! ) But on occasion you saw a gym leader who was a little more ... special. Like Koga's daughter in Fuschia. Or like the dislodged Blaine who had pitifully taken up refuge in, of all places, a damp cave in the middle of the sea. And I'll never forget the surprise of fighting Gym Leader #8! What a pleasant surprise that was! (And his team! I still think of Gary to this day whenever I feel the desire rising inside of me to effort-train an Arcanine. )

Considering what we saw in Diamond and Pearl, I am even more confident than before that this could be done very well by GameFreak in HGSS. They did a fantastic job of linking any one of the eight Sinnoh gym leaders to at least one other gym leader or Elite 4 member. Volkner, your rival, and Flint. Roark and his dad in Canalave. (Sorry, name escapes me. ) You saw Gardenia again in front of the haunted house after beating the game. You saw Fantine multiple times before finally getting to fight her. It felt a lot like the anime in a very good way: it made the gym leaders much more relevant to you than just another pretty face with a shitty team of monsters who share an element in common.

So what's the relationship to the previous discussion? It's pretty simple: while you are exploring Kanto (and Hoenn if they decide to include it), several of the Johto gym leaders could show up in different places. For example, it would be appropriate to run into Whitney right outside/inside the Safari Zone! Between her Chansey and Miltank, it makes perfect sense for her to be interested in Kanto's safari. Perhaps you might run into Morty in Lavender Town? What if when you visited Blaine in Seafoam he got a letter brought to him by PidgeyMail from his niece/granddaughter Flannery? What if when you visited the Unknown Dungeon you had a final mixed encounter with Giovanni (reformed) and Rocket President #2 (still stubborn in his ways) and had a dual battle alongside Giovanni against Johto Rocket Pres and his aide? Wouldn't that be sweet? I mean, I hate doubles battles normally, but can you imagine fighting side-by-side with Giovanni!? In the Unknown Dungeon of all places? It'd be amazing.

Notice that none of this had anything to do with levels, EVs, berries, trade items, TMs, or anything else related to battling. Sometimes I think people mistake the forest for the trees. They think that Pokemon is all about monsters which fight other monsters. And yeah, that's definitely the #1 feature. I'd be a fool to suggest otherwise. But being #1 doesn't mean being the only one. There's a lot of room for plot in Pokemon and the more lands you include in one pak the more opportunities there are to see old rivals and old friends show up to aid you or hinder you as you explore the new lands.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:18 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vran View Post
If I saw a Huntail in the waters? I'd be intimidated. I'd be scared for my limbs. That guy is awesomely ferocious.
I'd be worried that some poor 5 year old had lost his brightly coloured plastic toy. I'll do what you did earlier Vran, with the pokemon comparisons to RuSa as well. I'll pick my fave pokemon of each type in gen 2 and gen 3 and compare them. Meant to at the time, never got around to it.

Anyways, ignoring GSC's superior creature design:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vran View Post
Johto appears to be your favorite region.
Damn right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vran View Post
The fact that you very nearly spell out that the inclusion of Kanto ruined Gold and Silver for you tells me that you actually recognize that most people prefer Kanto to Johto and since you don't it upsets you if Johto can't shine on stage all by herself. It's sort of like saying that a concert hall could book Shania Twain for 7pm-9pm and Alison Krausse for 10:30pm-12:30am and as a Shania Twain fan it would ruffle your feathers that she didn't have the stage all to herself all night
It's more like if she also smudged Shania's makeup and splattered her dress with dirt. It's not Kanto being there that annoys me (largely); it's the affect that has on Johto. If they removed Kanto but left Johto as short and unchallenging as it is, I'd still be just as annoyed. If Johto gets expanded and made a proper region with an actual challenge, but they leave Kanto in as it is, that's cool with me; I'll just do as I often do in GSC and stop playing after I've finished Johto, and be happy because Johto has been expanded to be able to fill a game in it's own right.

My other, separate issue with Kanto in GSC is that essentially nothing happens plotwise. Johto's problem in GSC was the lack of a challenge because Kanto's presence shortened it and drove it's challenge factor down. Kanto's problem in GSC is that it was completely pointless; it had no plot, was even easier than Johto and because peoples teams where already set by the time they got there, it gave no motivation to people to catch more pokemon. It's as if they said "we have this fantastic new region. I know, instead of making it the best we can, let's just save ourselves the trouble and tack Kanto on the end as filler!"

In short, for me Kanto was no fun in GSC, and it's presence made them take the fun part of the game (Johto) and make it less challenging and shorter.

EDIT the first:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vran View Post
Considering what we saw in Diamond and Pearl, I am even more confident than before that this could be done very well by GameFreak in HGSS. They did a fantastic job of linking any one of the eight Sinnoh gym leaders to at least one other gym leader or Elite 4 member. Volkner, your rival, and Flint. Roark and his dad in Canalave. (Sorry, name escapes me. ) You saw Gardenia again in front of the haunted house after beating the game. You saw Fantine multiple times before finally getting to fight her. It felt a lot like the anime in a very good way: it made the gym leaders much more relevant to you than just another pretty face with a shitty team of monsters who share an element in common.
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 06-12-2009, 03:45 PM   #288
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As promised, the comparisons of my favourite pokemon of each type from gen 2 and gen 3, in reply to Vrans much earlier (and fairly random) one.

Spoiler: show
My favourite pokemon of each type from gen 2 and gen 3, as promised:

Heracross vs Armaldo
No contest. GSC 1, RSE 0
Houndoom vs Absol
GSC 1 RSE 1. Just
Kingdra vs Altaria
Close, but GSC 1 RSE 2
Elekid vs Manetric
Easy. GSC 2 RSE 2
Heracross vs Hariyama
GSC 3 RSE 2
Entei vs Torkoal
GSC 4 RSE 2
Noctowl vs Altaria
Despite being an awesome pokemon, Noctowl loses. Just. GSC 4 RSE 3
Misdreavus vs Dusclops
GSC 4 RSE 4
Chikorita vs Treeko
GSC 5 RSE 5. Draw
Phanpy vs Baltoy
GSC 6 RSE 5
Piloswine vs Glalie
GSC 7 RSE 5
Stantler vs Vigoroth
As cool as Vigoroth is, Stantler is one of my all time faves. GSC 8 RSE 5
Ariados vs Seviper
GSC 9 RSE 5
Slowking vs Gardevoir
GSC 10 RSE 5, although I do like Gardevoir
Tyranitar vs Regirock
GSC 10 RSE 6
Scizor vs Metagross
GSE 11 RSE 6
Slowking vs Milotic
GSC 12 RSE 6

Now starters:

Chikorita vs Treecko
GSC 13 RSE 7
Cyndaquil vs Torchic
GSE 14 RSE 7
Totodile vs Mudkip
GSE 14 RSE 8. Not a fan of either, really, but Mudkip is passable I suppose (even if it’s evolutions are fugly)

Legendary Trio:
Entei vs Registeel
GSC 15 RSE 8
Suicune vs Regice
GSC 16 RSE 8
Raikou vs Regirock
GSC 16 RSE 9

“Cute” legendary:
Celebi vs Jirachi
GSC 16 RSE 10

Version Mascots:
Lugia vs Kyogre
The only version mascot of RSE I like still loses. GSC 17 RSE 10
Ho-oh vs Groudon
GSC 18 RSE 10
Suicune vs Kyogre
GSC 19 RSE 10

And Pseudo-legendary’s for finishers
Tyranitar vs Salamance
Dragonite is better than both in design terms, but Salamance is just fugly. GSC 20 RSE 10

Final score: GSC 20, RSE 10

More even than I thought it’d be, but still a clear win for GSC


Had I included RBY's pokemon (which appeared in GSC but not RSE), It would have been GSC 25 RSE 5 (with RSE still winning dark, ghost and legendary #3 (Zapdos vs Regirock) and drawing grass type and grass starter). Grass type and grass starter are purely based on the first evo; the Meganium line, as a whole, is far superior to the Treecko line in terms of design, but the first stage is my fave for design in both lines.

And that's one of the reasons I loved Johto and GSC so much.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:01 PM   #289
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Slow.......bro? At first I thought it was just a typo, but then I saw that you double-dipped later by including Slowking.

Come to think of it, you double-dipped an awful lot. And you did so in retarded ways. Like comparing Entei with Torkoal? I'll agree with comparing Entei and a Regi, or comparing Entei with a Lati, but comparing it with Torkoal is retarded. Never mind that you're citing Entei twice.

Good God, you did it for Heracross, too! What is with you and double-dipping? Does GSC really have so few cool monsters that you're pitifully forced to recite the same monsters over and over again against different RSE lineups?

Okay, I'm done with you. -_-; "Chikorita vs Treecko, 5 to 5. Draw." Then a few paragraphs later, "Chikorita vs Treecko, 13 to 7." What. The. Fuck. You can't even make up your own mind, let alone keep from listing the same creatures over and over again.

Try again when you're not blinded by fangirl rage.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:09 PM   #290
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I think the Ruins of Alph is much better than Lava Cookie. GSC >>>>>>>> all other games.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:12 PM   #291
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Slow.......bro? At first I thought it was just a typo, but then I saw that you double-dipped later by including Slowking.

Come to think of it, you double-dipped an awful lot. And you did so in retarded ways. Like comparing Entei with Torkoal? I'll agree with comparing Entei and a Regi, or comparing Entei with a Lati, but comparing it with Torkoal is retarded. Never mind that you're citing Entei twice.

Good God, you did it for Heracross, too! What is with you and double-dipping? Does GSC really have so few cool monsters that you're pitifully forced to recite the same monsters over and over again against different RSE lineups?

Okay, I'm done with you. -_-; "Chikorita vs Treecko, 5 to 5. Draw." Then a few paragraphs later, "Chikorita vs Treecko, 13 to 7." What. The. Fuck. You can't even make up your own mind, let alone keep from listing the same creatures over and over again.

Try again when you're not blinded by fangirl rage.
The numbers underneath were a running tally. The first competition between Chikorita and Treecko was "best designed grass type in each gen, IMO", and went from GSC 4 RSE 4 to GSC 5 RSE 5; ie 1 each. The second one was grass starter; from GSC 12 RSE 6 to GSC 13 RSE 7; again 1 each. Nothing inconsistent there.

Pokemon were included twice when they fitted in two categories; for example, Heracross is both the best designed bug and the best designed fighting type in gen 2, and Entei is both the best designed fire type and one of the legendary trio. I repeated Regirock for RSE as well, due to it being both a legendary trio and the best designed rock type in gen 3.

Slowbro was a type; meant Slowking.

Also, you tried to compare Huntail to Stantler; how can you criticise mine as being random? The first 17 were "best designed of type x". Then I moved on to starters, then legendary trios, then the mini cute legendary, then version mascots, then pseudo-legendary. All perfectly reasonable categories compared to some of the weird comparisons you made. Entei vs Torkoal was "best designed fire type of gen 2 vs best designed fire type of gen 3". Makes perfect sense as a category compared to what you had; I mean, Milotic vs Togetic? What category was that supposed to be?

Also, I'm a guy, not a "fangirl", and I don't appreciate being sworn at.

And I'm not angry. Sorry if I came across that way :P. I was just making my own comparisons based on my taste. I was slightly angry in my previous post where I addressed your response to my issues with Kanto, but not with you, with gamefreak :p.

Let's not turn this into another flame war after the thread managed to get back on track :P.

EDIT the first: If you want to see my redone version without double-dipping, I'll post it. The only difference it makes it take GSC now takes best grass (Bellossom vs Ludicolo), rock (Tyranitar vs Aggron) and flying/dragon (Kindgdra vs Flygon or Noctowl vs Swellow, depending on which loses Altaria). New end result without double-dipping; GSC 22 RSE 7
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:26 PM   #292
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I think the Ruins of Alph is much better than Lava Cookie. GSC >>>>>>>> all other games.
qft

I think we can return to this debate when acceptable lines of comparison can be drawn.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:29 PM   #293
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I'll make it really simple for you. Let's pretend that I have these eight Pokemon to compare: Grumpig, Ludicolo, Pachirisu, Pikachu, Piloswine, Slaking, Snorlax, and Vileplume. What would be the appropriate comparisons for ranking these 8?

Pikachu vs Pachirisu. Both are electric rodents designed cutely.
Meowth vs Skitty. Both are normal-type cats.
Vileplume vs Ludicolo. Both are 3-stage grass-types that evolve from their 2nd to their 3rd stage via a Leaf Stone.
Snorlax vs Slaking. Both are large, lazy Normal-types famously associated with attacking.

Assume, please, that you agree that the creature names in bold above are the winners of their respective contests.

Putting on hold your gross mismatching of these eight monsters, the crime of double-dipping becomes apparent as follows:

"Well, I'm going to prove to you that RSE is better than RBY!"
"How?"
"Well, for starters, Skitty is a lot better than Meowth. RSE 1, RBY nil."
"Okay, I'll give you that."
"Second! Skitty's a lot cuter than Farfetch'd!"
"Huh?"
"2-0!"
"Yeah, but you already--"
"Third! Skitty's waaaaaaaay cuter than that stupid Jigglypuff!"
"Well, I agree, but you can't--"
"I can't what?"
"You can't keep mentioning Skitty over and over."
"And why not?"
"Because it's not a fair comparison!"
"Why? Because you'll always lose? "
"No, you dummy!"
"I don't appreciate being called a dummy."
"Well, sorry! But if you don't see why it's stupid of you to keep reusing Skitty over and over, let me spell it out for you: if half the monsters in one generation are better than half the monsters in another, and vice versa, but you keep comparing the very best monster from one generation to all the competition in the other generation, you're going to generate unfair, lopsided results."

You can't keep reciting the same GSC monsters over and over, Concept. It would be like if I said that Chikorita is better than Tangela, Victreebel, and Exeggutor. I agree with you that she is, but you can't use that to prove that GSC is so much better than RBY when it comes to grass-types or to Pokemon period. First of all, you're childishly avoiding the most logical comparison -- grass starter with grass starter -- which is thankfully something you didn't do in real life just a second ago. But second of all, and something you are guilty of, you didn't give the losers a fair shot at other creatures from your much-beloved GSC.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:38 PM   #294
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Here's a specific example taken straight from your list. Heracross, you said, is better than either Armaldo or Hariyama. I agree. But let's even the score and introduce a different bug or a different fighter from GSC. How about ... Ledian? Or perhaps Hitmontop? If pressed to pick between Hitmontop and Hariyama, I'd pick the sandbag sumo any day over the fugly spinnytop/breakdancer hybrid. But since I wasn't given that choice -- since I had to pick between Heracross and Hariyama -- I'd obviously pick Heracross once again. This is why double-dipping creates inaccurate results. What before would have been 1:1 now artificially becomes 2:0.

That's why it's retardedly childish of you to insist that you get to use Chikorita twice -- "once for grass and once for starters!" -- and then count it twice. I mean, think about it. If I say that Torchic is better than Cyndaquil and you disagree, that's bad, right? But wouldn't it be even worse if I said, "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in a fire pokeymon fight. Torchic wins! 1-0!" and then I turned right around and said, "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in a fire starter fight! Torchic, da winner! 2-0!" "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in the lightweight cup! Torchic! 3-0!" "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in the orange-colored monsters contest! TORCHIC! 4-0!" And so on and so forth? It's inflationary of you to try to do this to your poll to justify GSC landsliding RSE when, in reality, your numbers probably would have been closer to 55%/45% if you'd picked the appropriate comparisons and not rehashed GSC's best over and over.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:43 PM   #295
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First of all, you're childishly avoiding the most logical comparison -- grass starter with grass starter
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Now starters:

Chikorita vs Treecko
GSC 13 RSE 7
Yes, I totally avoided that one.

If you give me 5 minutes, I'll duly edit sans double dipping. Also, I said that this comparison was based on my favourite of each type from each, then the categories mentioned. If you want, I'll list all the pokemon from each gen I think look cool. I'm pretty sure RSE will still lose IMO despite it having more pokemon. Give me 5 minutes to do those things for you.

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but you keep comparing the very best monster from one generation to all the competition in the other generation, you're going to generate unfair, lopsided results
Actually, I compared the very best of one generation to the very best of another, not the very best of one generation to all in another.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:48 PM   #296
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Here's a specific example taken straight from your list. Heracross, you said, is better than either Armaldo or Hariyama. I agree. But let's even the score and introduce a different bug or a different fighter from GSC. How about ... Ledian? Or perhaps Hitmontop? If pressed to pick between Hitmontop and Hariyama, I'd pick the sandbag sumo any day over the fugly spinnytop/breakdancer hybrid. But since I wasn't given that choice -- since I had to pick between Heracross and Hariyama -- I'd obviously pick Heracross once again. This is why double-dipping creates inaccurate results. What before would have been 1:1 now artificially becomes 2:0.

That's why it's retardedly childish of you to insist that you get to use Chikorita twice -- "once for grass and once for starters!" -- and then count it twice. I mean, think about it. If I say that Torchic is better than Cyndaquil and you disagree, that's bad, right? But wouldn't it be even worse if I said, "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in a fire pokeymon fight. Torchic wins! 1-0!" and then I turned right around and said, "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in a fire starter fight! Torchic, da winner! 2-0!" "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in the lightweight cup! Torchic! 3-0!" "Torchic vs Cyndaquil in the orange-colored monsters contest! TORCHIC! 4-0!" And so on and so forth? It's inflationary of you to try to do this to your poll to justify GSC landsliding RSE when, in reality, your numbers probably would have been closer to 55%/45% if you'd picked the appropriate comparisons and not rehashed GSC's best over and over.
Damnit man stop ninjaing me :P. I notice you don't complain about my resuse of, for example, Regirock or Altaria, both of which won both their categories for RSE.

Instead of redoing it seeing as you obviouslt have issues with me using your method of comparions, I'll compile a list of all the pokemon I think look un-fugly enough to use from each gen. Just give me a few minutes to do it, savvy?
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:48 PM   #297
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Here's a suggestion: Since these specific comparisons are difficult to draw and subject to overlap due to a lot of commonality between multiple species, why don't we compare more general aspects, such as types, classifications, or stages instead of picking each individual 'mon and pitting it against something that shares a single quality?

This way, we have a more general and rounded comparison and don't have to worry as much about foggy lines of comparison.
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:52 PM   #298
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You, sir, are a troll. No need to make the adjusted table as I won't be reading it, not even for your "lulz."
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:54 PM   #299
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I'm confused since Heracross was available in Ru/Sa. Are you guys arguing over which game is better, or which generation of Pokemon is better, or which region is better? You all seem to be inconsistantly switching from the three.

I don't see how one set of Pokemon can be better than the others either, they're all made by the same person. Teddiursa, Elekid and Tyranitar are all awesome, but in the same hand Gligar, Magcargo and Qwilfish are all fugly. Corphish, Medicham and Dusclops are awesome, but Banette, Manetric and Torkoal aren't so appealing. This also brings on the matter of opinion, everyone has their preferences, and if they didn't the world would be a boring place. Some people probably love Torkoal or Gligar, but I've never really liked them all that much.

The only fair way of doing your comparison would be firstly comparing every possible combination of 2nd and 3rd gen Pokemon, then getting several other people of different ages and cultures to compare the two generations. Once you've tallied the results you'll have your fairest answer
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Old 06-12-2009, 04:59 PM   #300
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Perhaps the best thing to do from an aesthetic point of view would be to do as you said but with the Poké-ignorant, meaning none of our votes would count. Instead, we'd have to ask people who don't recognize the Pokemon and have no vested emotional interest in any of them, "Hey, if you had to pick, which of these two would you say is more appealing to you? Cuter? Scarier? Stupider?" And so on.
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