04-05-2017, 09:44 AM | #26 | |||
An actual game I made!
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04-05-2017, 10:08 AM | #27 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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Some responses and thoughts to various things:
TCG Corner: This isn't something that I think definitely needs to go. It's not detrimental to the game at all. It's, very simply, a fun little diversion for people to interact in another way, and its something that Fizzy Bubbles has that separates it from other RPs. Obviously its not a high priority item, but I think the cost of everything in there needs to be completely slashed. It's much more of a luxury item than it really needs to be, and its better for the community as a whole if more people could afford it. Just because its a gimmick doesn't mean it needs to be scrapped. We can close it and work on it during a later date. We have plenty of time to hash these kinds of things out. Currency: I don't like our current 3 currency system; its over-complicated. However, in my opinion, I do like the idea of coins. With another currency, you avoid the risk of market saturation; there being too many things to buy with one kind of currency will devalue a lot of things in comparison to the best stuff. Coins helps to relieve that. Coins can be used for more specialty goods, like TMs, which I don't have a real problem with people purchasing (we can always limit the TMs one can buy to ones you can buy in-game or the weaker moves). Rare Candies should be completely scrapped as a currency. They don't really serve a purpose. At the moment the only value they have is in trading and the Move tutor? That's kind of silly. If we are going to simplify, and the community definitely wants to above anything else, we should simply have one kind of currency. That's it. Scrap Candies, scrap coins, and keep Pokedollars. But if people think its not strictly necessary that we simplify the game as much as possible, I'd put my hat in to keeping coins. Just my two cents. Purchasable Eggs: No. That's basically my opinion on it. You're very likely to encounter a situation like the Staff Shop or ASB's squad slots: the value of one item is so strong it makes purchasing other items a relative non-factor. Egg Passes are super common purchases in the Staff Shop, and Squad Slots in ASB (despite this not being a 100% ironproof comparison, its similar in many ways) pretty much dominate all purchases outside of holiday token sales. Maybe if people want it we can have holiday sales of them, but I think at the moment making them just purchasable period is actually going to cause quite a bit of a headache, as trying to figure out the proper price point in which they A) won't be the grand majority of purchases, B) benefit only older members, and C) doesn't lead to another Egg House situation where we have too many Pokemon. I don't think that price point actually exists. Moderation: I'm going to start with this point: we definitely do not need to decide this right now. Approaching this problem in haste is a bad idea. For a couple of reasons: first of all, we do not necessarily needs mods in the discussion phase anyways. We as a community are pretty capable of being respectful to each other and self-regulating. We also don't need to make any dramatic changes until we actually know what we're doing. Secondly, we need to make sure we're actually making the right choices on who we mod. For a game that essentially going to have a new start, we need to make sure that the mods we elect are actually capable of doing their jobs. All too often mods come up that essentially are just lame ducks: its happened in both FB and ASB. However, I think that we should at least think about what we want in a mod. In my opinion, the most important things are involvement in the community, leadership skills, and a good attitude. We want to make sure that our mods are active and that they are willing to listen to the community. We also want to make sure that the mods are capable of putting their foot down when the community inevitably starts to go at each other's throats. I don't want a benevolent tyrant, but someone who is capable of being a guiding hand. For me, RP experience is a little secondary; its nice, but I know from experience that modding someone simply because they're good at the game simply doesn't work. You need more than that. Contests: At the moment, I don't think we need to worry about them. We can lock the sub-forum and make it so you don't have to do the stores associated with it, but I think the majority of people want contests and its something that should be discussed on a later date. Again, we don't need to immediately scrap things that very simply can just be discussed later when the game is in a good spot. Infinite PC Slots: I'm mostly against it, and actually would probably want the upper limit to be lowered. We don't need big squads in order to have an active, healthy RP. Lower PC Slots actually acted as a decent gateway for limiting Pokemon gain until we stupidly made them unlimited and opened Pandora's Box. Breeding Center: I actually glossed over this, but I'm actually for this being scrapped. I would much rather breeding itself be something like a Valentine's mini event. But simply put this shop is just hard to balance and I think it should go. There are better ways to handle the concept in my mind. Shadow Pokemon: Kind of simply put...I still don't understand this much at all. If people have Shadow Pokemon I'm for letting them keep them, but I don't think we should have much more to do with this. Merging the Training Center and the Move Tutor: I'm all for this. It just makes things smoother. Gen VII: I'm all for introducing it right now; this requires a lot less work in FB then it does in other RPs like WF or ASB. Mini-events are fun though, and I'm okay with having one. The more chances to RP, the better. Adventure Limits: This is something I hadn't considered, and it might be a good idea to do this. I would say limit it to two or three adventures though; we want newer people to feel more immersed in the game, and having at least a few adventures does that. Gyms: This is something I think we should tackle at a later date (along with Trainer Battles, which I'm not I'm comfortable with existing in the first place). I'd rather not have them in zones though. The less FB feels like a checklist in my opinion, the better. I really like the sandbox feel of ASB. You're out having an adventure, and anything can happen. I feel artificial goals can ruin that feeling, and make it so Gyms are more of a priority for people. If we do make them in-zone, they need to be opt-in, not opt-out. If at any point we're restricting people for not doing Gym-related things, I'm going to oppose it. People should be allowed to RP as they please, and if they don't want to do gyms, they shouldn't be punished for it. UPC: First of all, this is one of the most fun things of FB. Do not scrap this. Secondly, I think it should be up to the UPC winner whether or not they want to release their UPC to the wild. If they don't want to, that's their choice. Some people like having something unique that they worked hard for, and that's fair. If they want to spread the joy, that's also fair. But I think telling people either way is not a great idea. This, however, is probably something we can discuss on a later date.
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04-05-2017, 10:22 AM | #28 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,003
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I'd like to prioritize getting the Zones cleaned up and updator applications processed so we can get the roleplay going actively again. I've not had a single update since I've joined and I'd really like to be adventuring (and updating, if all goes well) by the end of April.
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04-05-2017, 10:24 AM | #29 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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That is also a valid point, although I think we also need to know if current adventures can be brought over (I don't see why not).
Updators are a bit of a bigger kettle, as we need to set more in stone how they work. I think the ZA idea is the best to keep the RP flowing.
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04-05-2017, 10:27 AM | #30 |
Marsh Badge
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Contests, TCG Corner, Gym Battles and Pokétreats Store: I should have clarified this a bit better. I'm not for completely scrapping this and never returning it again. But right now, none of these are active and we need a roleplaying forum first I feel. I want to scrap all of these for now and remove them from the forum. A revisit to each of these topics will come once interest has been raised in them of course.
Catchable Evolved and Shiny Pokémon: Yes! I'm all for this. Free-movepools: Personally don't know about this since I wasn't around when this was a thing. I can see it being a fun thing that makes a Pokémon more unique but I can also see this getting out of hand quickly. I would like to see this what this looks like, but can I ask that there is at least some form of restriction on this? Purchasable eggs: I'm fine if we don't do this. I just want to point out that I don't like the idea of creating a whole separate (mini-)zone just for the obtaining of eggs. Because what you get is your standard zone where people can catch Pokémon and have their actual stories, and a zone that's dedicated to giving smaller stories and handing out Pokémon (eggs) much faster. You'd be roleplaying but you'd be detracting the roleplaying from the actual zones I'd feel. Please, I'd prefer to link accomplishments in the current zones to the reward of obtaining an egg. IQ shop: I can easily concede on this one. If it does exist I can always choose not to do anything with and it won't affect anyone else. So if others really want we could keep it. UPC: This has to return, obviously. It's become a FB staple I suppose. The decision of what happens to the Pokémon line is ultimately something its creator should get to decide and not anyone else (within limits I suppose but I can't think of anything). EDIT: As for current adventures, I got the idea that we were allowed to continue them, it just had to be here on UPN. I don't know about the other updators but my plan was to re-post each of my update batches from PI in the new Phantom Isle thread on UPN separately, and ask current adventurers to compile the history of their posts on PI as well as their so-called 'introduction' post. It makes it easy for both parties if they can look back through the thread they're in what's been said and done in the story (my thoughts).
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04-05-2017, 10:28 AM | #31 | |
Sayonara Bye Bye
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I think the ZO/ZA dynamic works fine. Might need some tweaking, but I see no reason to scrap it, and I see no reason why we can't migrate over adventures. I know some members are very invested in their ongoing stories, and if the updators and updatees both migrate... why not?
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04-05-2017, 10:29 AM | #32 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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Oh right I knew I forgot something.
Egg Zone: If we do want to make an Egg Zone, please make it simply for RPing hatching an egg. I don't really think this is necessary for one, but it could be nice. Obtaining Eggs and hatching them in a shorter than normal adventure is actually unhealthy, so we shouldn't do it. I agree with Ex-Ad here. It's a nice idea otherwise, and maybe we can put in it if we feel there are enough updators to do it.
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04-05-2017, 10:40 AM | #33 | |
An actual game I made!
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>Migrating zone adventures I'm all for this. I am very much interested in continuing my currently ongoing adventures in all the zones I'm currently in, so if there are updators willing to keep those adventures going, then hell, yeah! |
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04-05-2017, 11:13 AM | #34 |
Boulder Badge
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 233
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>re: Migrating Adventures
The answer to that is yes, we can do that or whatever else we choose in regards to this as long as it is done here at UPN. So, that then begs the question on what exactly should we do with the zones? Is the common consensus to just port all the zones here as is? Or should we use the opportunity to, if not make brand new zones (in addition to the above, since I think most want to continue existing adventures which would make keeping the zones necessary), modify the zones as collectively desired? I have thoughts on this and also the other things discussed, but I also have an exam in like 15 minutes so I can't really take the time to write them out at the moment. |
04-05-2017, 11:52 AM | #35 |
Insanity
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Okay some quick thoughts.
Re: Shops Honestly I like Raves's idea the best so far. It makes the entirity of the system more immersive with natural potential to RP without ot being forced. The only thing I feel that could potentially be post clutter in the threads, but it is a great option to just in general declutter the shop sub-forum. Egg Zone: My idea behind this wasn't to buy eggs persee, but more add RP to the process of egg hatching. Since from what I am hearing so far is that we won't have a dedicatrd place to hatch, unless the Egg House is now a Hatchery. Being honest the system really isn't that unhealthy due to the fact it seems we're trying to make eggs much harder to get. It is more gated from RP activity, not just waiting three weeks to get a new Pokemon. There was suggestions that we had a voluntary updator team for all the mini-zones, and that any updator can pick up on someone's adventure in these mini-zones. Shinies & Evolved Pokemon in Zones: Hell yes. Both are features in the games, it makes no sense why they shouldn't be here. Of course, Shinies shouldn't just suddenly become our next Eevee problem, abd evolved mons should be under the system Slash suggested. Shadow Pokemon: I love the idea and RP potential behind them. I understand they are gimicky, but honestly I feel they are fun additions. If we decide to keep them they shouldn't be uber rare tbh. UPC: Echoing agreement on this subject. If previous winners want to have their Pokemon publically available, they should be able to with no problem. Same goes with any future winners. I also want to suggest that we both allow them to upwidate to current dex moves with community approval (mainly adding a few newer moves and tutors, etc.) One more suggestion, due to not having them in 13 and last year, we do at least biyearly competitions the next few years, maybe in January so it is six months apart from the one in July. Zones: I honestly would love new zones along with the older ones. Also yes please on Ex's ZA system. Oh and I know this is far out but some thoughts on legends?
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04-05-2017, 12:18 PM | #36 |
プラスチック♡ラブ
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Location: 蒸気の波の中
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I like all the discussion I'm seeing here but I think you might be collectively be putting the cart before the horse. Dealing with shops is important but I haven't seen much talk about core RP mechanics.
Will you be keeping the same update structure? Will you require the same things from before? What are your expectations regarding content? How are prizes determined? What's acceptable and what's not? There are also administrative considerations. How are you going to handle new members? Will you give a test still and if so, who will administer it and what will it be like? How will you decide shop allocation? What happens when someone disappears and a shop is left sitting? You also need to think about new member sources. Losing Serebii cuts off a good flow of newbies. Also get rid of all the links. No one really cares where your Trubbish learned Sludge Bomb or hit level 32. Keeping them for your own records is fine but they're a waste of time and if someone is cheating there are easier ways of handling it. Having some for items might be okay but there should be some level of mutual trust. You ultimately don't need dedicated mods to run this game if you structure it around the community but you'll still need a central decision maker to manage and deligate. I know everyone is excited and wants to fix everything now but you might need an organizational structure first or you're just going to have a lot of ideas and no one to execute them. Would anyone be interested in having a meeting of sorts on Discord this weekend to discuss this kind of thing and come up with a coherent proposal? I don't really want to add FB as part of my workload but I do want to see it succeed and would not mind acting as a consultant of sorts. I have about a decade of experience running Pokémon RPs and I think I can help you guys organize yourselves. |
04-05-2017, 01:11 PM | #38 | |
Marsh Badge
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Thanks!
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I assumed we were keeping the same existing format for roleplaying where you have a zone you post an introduction post in and wait until you get a reply. Of course it might have been presumptuous of me since I can't say the same for others. For zones (though we didn't reach that discussion yet) I thought we would keep the zones we have for now to finish the adventures we have. My preference goes to having a few original zones to set us apart but those will be worked on while we're finishing the adventures in the current zones we have. (It's not that there's something wrong with the zones FB has, I just don't like shamelessly copying it from someone else's hard work.) >All the other stuff you mentioned Similarly to above. Some I made assumptions for that we'd keep the current system (unless someone outwardly objected to it already). For others I'm sure there were ideas but we hadn't reached that point yet. >Discord I'm not opposed to FB having a bit more of a friendly alliance with the other moderators on this Forum (like ASB has) and I'm not opposed to hearing the thought of someone with experience. If we can have a large enough group that's representative for FB to appear this weekend I'm all for it.
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04-05-2017, 01:40 PM | #39 |
Sayonara Bye Bye
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Regarding Discord, I think it gets way too hectic for meaningful discussion.
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04-05-2017, 01:46 PM | #40 | |
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This might be my programming mindset talking, but I almost think to some degree we need to approach this from a modularized standpoint? To a degree at least, in working on each building block until its done and then moving onto the ones that would stack on those previous. Like Jeri said, talking and brainstorming shop ideas are well and good, but at its bare basics there are only really two main things that need to be sorted out to actually have something here: the RPing and the administrative structure behind it. Once we get those settled then things like shops and related areas could be fleshed out. Edit: Ninja'd by Ex-Ad after I wrote out a big list of points orz I'm personally fine with keeping the [general] existing structure. Imo though we should still iron out what exactly is being kept and what is not before we go too much farther. Like, if I'm understanding right a lot of us don't really have a problem with the general RPer guidelines, but we pretty much agree the updater guidelines need a bit of overhaul. We should finalize things like that before focusing any on shops/contests/gyms/TCG/etc. Also, re: zones, unless I'm missing any, the only zones that have active adventures (with updaters still here at this point in time) are PI, WI, and Cortoza. So at the minimum we'd have to port in those three. As for zones in general I agree with Ex-Ad in that we should try to come up with our own zones. I personally actually really had liked the 9x9 zone grid/biome idea that had been tossed around. >Discord I agree there should be a discussion about this this weekend when hopefully everyone is free |
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04-05-2017, 01:58 PM | #41 |
プラスチック♡ラブ
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To be clear when I talk about core mechanics I don't mean zones and stuff. I'm talking about how you decide on what is acceptable and what the goals of the RP is. From my perspective the trouble with FB isn't a lack of focus on RP (that's more of a symptom that has spiraled) but that the standards are so high and the structure was so restrictive that it made updating and RP a chore. Being expected to write a novel for every RP post is a huge turnoff for me and I've heard others quit for similar reasons. Shops exploded because it was an easy way to keep interest and activity without fixing the RP issues. In my opinion the community should establish what they want from the RP first and handle details after.
Discord was just an idea as it seems to be fairly accessible. But if not everyone can manage it, we can do it otherwise, such as a separate thread that focuses primarily on structure. I'd be glad to moderate the discussion or contribute talking points. I don't want to dominate this discussion or be a decision maker, but I think you guys could benefit from organizing your thoughts and hammering out structure before writing up new ancillary parts of the game that aren't part of the primary RP goals. Edit: I know Discord and chats can be hectic but in my experience live chat with a moderator/note taker is much more productive. These threads lend themselves to navel gazing and complicated idea dumps that can distract more than help. I'm more proposing a rewrite party style chat (for the ASBers here who are familiar) where an organized proposal is drafted for community review. Right now I Know it's still early and you're brainstorming but there's not much focus here.
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04-05-2017, 02:04 PM | #42 | ||||||
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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For content, I think it should remain relatively open. If someone wants to dabble in something a little supernatural, I say let them. I'm not particularly fond of instating arbitrary limitations. Unless this is not what you mean, in which case I might want some clarification. ^^; Rewards and such are going to have to be discussed, and we can do that now actually (I may start a thread about it here). My opinion, and I think the general consensus is not to be so stingy about adventure rewards. The issue here is that both RP rewards and shops need to be reworked in order to make sense. We have been focusing on shops, but both need to happen at the same time. Quote:
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Also as long as you don't suggest mods. :P
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04-05-2017, 02:12 PM | #43 |
Getting married! :D
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I'm all for Discord, but probably a TALK rather than a CHAT.
But that may just be me. As for practical future matters: If a moderator for FB is needed/wanted/preferred, I volunteer to be that mod in a practical sense. I have quite a few years of being game and forum admin, having volunteered for two GameForge games here in the Netherlands. And I agree with a lot that Jeri says. I think, rather than "fixing" FB, this is a perfect moment to destroy it and completely rebuild it from the ground up. In my opinion there is not much wrong with most of the shops, but right now talking about that feels like fixing a squeaking door while the house in on fire. But I'll elaborate on my thoughts later. I have to think more about that myself too.
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04-05-2017, 02:13 PM | #44 |
Flashbacker
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Posts: 9,068
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It would be significantly easier to draft a primary proposal on Discord which is then shipped over to a forum based review than it would be to construct a proposal in thread. I'm saying this from the same kind of experience as Jeri. The dynamic nature of discussion on Discord means that a question and answer style discussion is much, much more viable and for the construction of an initial proposal this is infinitely more useful.
Regarding links, please scrap them. They are tedious and very easily made a mistake of, both of which make it easy to deter new members. Regarding RP guidelines I think the consensus is fairly obvious. Maybe consider a "flat minimum" of around 250 words but don't be absurdly strict on it. If someone is clearly taking the piss and only ever crafting 100 word responses to every update? There's an issue there, maybe have a chat with them as the updater and see if you can't coax them into trying a little longer, give them pointers here and there. Someone has made a 200 word response which within the context makes sense because there wasn't really much for them to do? This is probably fine. There is really no need to enforce any rules here. |
04-05-2017, 02:19 PM | #45 |
Weavile Pillow
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@Jeri: So when you're talking about a chat party on Discord, do you mean voice chat or just a time set up to be in the FB channel so we can discuss things?
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04-05-2017, 02:24 PM | #46 |
プラスチック♡ラブ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,766
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>Emi and mods
I wasn't clear - I'm not saying you need mods, just a base structure to manage what needs to be done. WF operates great with effectively no mods and FB can too but there's going to need to be some degree of oversight even if it's distributed. You'll also need someone with some basic mod powers to move/sticky/etc even if they don't have decision making powers. Again, to be clear, I'm for general first and specifics later. I think this will make everyone's lives much easier. But feel free to tell me to fuck off lol. This isn't my rodeo, I'm just offering to help wrangle some cows. >GS Something like that. I could even set up a dedicated channel to keep the discussion separate from the general daily chitchat. |
04-05-2017, 02:28 PM | #47 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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General first and specifics later is my way of doing things Jer. :3
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04-05-2017, 02:32 PM | #48 |
The Scientist
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,211
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Going to echo some previous sentiments here.
Firstly, I completely agree with pretty much everything Jeri has said prior to this. I'm going to say right now that there is no way in hell that everything will be squared away in a week. You want to rebuild FB? Great. But starting from the shops is not really ideal for that; we are much better taking a top down approach. With that in mind, I pose the first questions: What do we aim to accomplish with the FB-rework? What are the positive aspects from current FB that we want to emphasize, and what are the negative aspects we wish to de-emphasize or remove entirely? What power structure best balances efficiency with fairness to all members for our purposes, and why? The trick to answering these in a meaningful way is going to be casting aside a lot of the technical details for the time being, and answering in a broad sense. I think it's been said that discussing administration is jumping the gun, but it isn't. A lot of structural things need to be decided upon before we can begin to work on add-ons and extras. Shops are non-essentials, and should be handled after we get a handle on the core of FB. A solid framework goes a long way; despite all of the flaws in current FB, the foundation is solid and consistent. It's one of the main reasons it is still around.
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04-05-2017, 02:38 PM | #49 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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As much as I understand where people are coming from, I think its important that we do not underplay the significant impact shops and shop culture have had on FB. Shops and the RP are unfortunately stuck together like a parasite. You have to work on both. Its fine to look at the RP things, but you cannot downplay the branch that has been sickening the FB tree.
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04-05-2017, 02:39 PM | #50 |
Flashbacker
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 9,068
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Jeri I think the consensus is that we want the Discord discussion. I'm asking Alto to create the separate channel now and name it FB workshop so that it's separate from the general chat as you said, but also because that'll make it much easier to c/p suggestions and collate info for non-Discord users when we post it onto the forum.
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