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Old 05-17-2018, 12:52 AM   #4701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Does Swift Swim double final speed (+EVs), base speed, or speed after stage boosts? Also, is there any format I can play that allows an uber that isn't Ubers itself?
It doubles speed after stage boosts. So say the Pokemon in question has 300 Speed. If it uses Agility, it's a x2 multiplier, so it has 600 speed. Swift Swim is another x2 multiplier so it'd be at 1200 speed.

As for formats, there's plenty of other metagames and custom formats and whatnot. I don't know off the top of my head but there's probably something close to what you're looking for if you look hard enough.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:56 AM   #4702
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Thanks for that!

HERE IS MY FIRST EVER POKEMON BATTLE! Which I lost due to d/c.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-748609221

Xerneas spooked me. I currently don't have a plan for beating it. I need to think of something.
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:40 AM   #4703
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...Why not play an OU team with Pelipper if the only Uber you're going to use is Kyogre
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:37 AM   #4704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Xerneas spooked me. I currently don't have a plan for beating it. I need to think of something.
Aegislash. Solgaleo / Dusk Mane Necrozma. Sand Rush Excadrill in the sand. To a lesser extent Heatran, Primal Groudon, and other things that wall Moonblast and Thunder but not Focus Blast and/or fail to KO Xerneas in one hit.

Whatever do you mean, though, by "MY FIRST EVER POKEMON BATTLE"? Surely you must mean this is your first-ever Ubers battle, no?
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:09 PM   #4705
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I had never battled another player before that game.

What happened with Keldeo was pure luck. I wasn't even sure if Fighting resisted Dark but thought it did, and then had no idea about Justified or if Keldeo could outspeed Xerneas. Turns out it could have, even after Geomancy, but Keldeo wouldn't have enough to take him out. I still don't have an explanation for why Darkrai died after using Dark Pulse.

Similarly, Tapu Koko versus Xerneas was also luck. I was surprised by Thunder off Xerneas (I thought it only ran Moonblast) and only dropped Koko for the boosted, perfectly accurate thunder. It didn't hit me until before I went to bed that Koko either resists or is neutral to both Moonblast and Thunder which had to be Xerneas' only two attacking moves.

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...Why not play an OU team with Pelipper if the only Uber you're going to use is Kyogre
I like Kyogre, and want to battle Ubers. I don't like OU's meta and the only way I'd play it is if I got to use Kyogre. Eventually, I want this team to be fully mono-water, but Kyogre is banned from monotype anyway.

A more technical reason was Damp Rock is banned from OU so even with Pelipper that battle the rain was ending way too quickly.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:44 PM   #4706
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Before I get going, this is the second battle ever, an accident while I was trying to play ubers but didn't validate the team:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/g...ttle-748869334

I have very little idea what I'm doing so it's rather refreshing that the power level of the opponents has scaled down to where I am. Compare against Dueling Network and Tenhou, where when I started (2011/2008 ) the quality of players was much lower but now even basic randoms are super powerful, so if you're not prepared you can get btfo of your first game.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:47 AM   #4707
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I've played about 12 games, I think I'm getting better.

I was taken aback at Oblivion Wing, it must be super effective against Fighting types? That also explains why Focus Blast didn't do super effective damage to Yveltal. But that Volt Switch did a huge amount and I wasn't even trying.

I was dancing around Kyurem-W because I didn't know what it was weak to. I don't think I have a move super effective move against it.
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:19 AM   #4708
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Yveltal is Dark/Flying and Oblivion Wing is Flying, yes. Kyurem's still Ice/Dragon regardless of form, so Fighting/Dragon/Rock/Steel/Fairy.

Google is your friend.
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Old 05-19-2018, 02:22 AM   #4709
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It's hard to Google when I'm on a timer! Like what I put this guy on. I'm pretty sure Kyogre would have been KO'd by the Stealth Rock, so I dunno why he was delaying like that.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:31 AM   #4710
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In the future you can do "/data x" and it'll come up with whatever you're looking for

So "/data Yveltal" would give you its typing, base stats, potential abilities, etc.
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Old 05-19-2018, 05:31 PM   #4711
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OK, three days in, here is my team:

Kyogre
Mega Swampert
Ash-Greninja
Wash Rotom
Pelipper
???

Two fast rain sweepers, two rain setting tanks, and a really good pivot. The team is really fun but horribly inconsistent due to Hydro Pump's poor accuracy. Scald just doesn't have enough accuracy to really justify using it on anymon not named Kyogre,

Perhaps surprisingly, this team is not total trash against Primal Groudon. I actually have a very favourable matchup because a lot of people expect Groudon to stomp and are forced to switch.

What I have had consistent trouble with are the deers:

Extreme Killer Arceus
Geomancy Xerneas
Arceus-Water

And the dragons:

Palkia
Giratina
Dialga

Sinnoh just eats me up even though those are supposed to be one of the lesser generations for legendaries.

Anyone have any secret sauce on how to undo the ungulates?
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Old 05-19-2018, 05:47 PM   #4712
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Primal Groudon or Dusk Mane Necrozma.

Marshadow is a good offensive answer to E-Killer Arceus.
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:04 PM   #4713
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I can't use either because this is mono water.
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Old 05-20-2018, 02:28 PM   #4714
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This was the highest rated opponent I faced but I had a good matchup. I was able to employ some prediction which I didn't do in earlier games. I was able to tell he had a Choice Scarf Yveltal and that was the benefit of leading with Pelipper.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:49 AM   #4715
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Altaria

That was close!

I've been seeing a lot of Arceus-Fairy recently, and yet never on my team >>
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:14 AM   #4716
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I gave up only using Kyogre and went to Arceus-Water, and managed to get up to 1300 ELO! That isn't respectable at all but I feel proud as a newbie with a heavily flawed team.

And on boy. This game goes to show it as I played a guy who took 2 minutes per move. I still don't know what works, or how to play it. It took me a full year to figure out Yu-Gi-Oh! and then several years to play my deck at a high level and keep it competitive. I am throwing darts and trying to figure out what works.

I was complaining about Arceus and Xerneas, and while both give me trouble I have no outs to Blissey. Greninja is my only Taunt-er and he doesn't run Fighting (or physical) moves, and with the necessary Choice Scarf (to outrun Shaymin, Marshadow, and +2 Xerneas) it's not practical anyway.

The Z-Hydro Cannon was interesting. I lost the rain but was almost able to consecutively KO both Yveltal and Magearna. But even in rain it doesn't offer much on Blissey.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:50 AM   #4717
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As handicapped as your team is, your answer to Blissey is that Mega Swampert of yours. Base 150 Attack, access to moves like Superpower and STAB Waterfall ... Superpower does 80.9 - 95.5% damage to a Blissey with max HP, max Def, and a Bold nature ... it does 97.3 - 114.5% damage to what Smogon considers to be "the typical Ubers Cleric Blissey", with an 81.3% chance to OHKO ... either way, Superpower on your Mega Swampert will hurt Blissey pretty badly.

That stated, you need at least two answers to a special wall, not just one. Just one, and your opponent is going to ID it quickly and do everything he can to take it out. You need two so that even if one dies the other can still finish the job and remove the enemy Blissey from play.

Other physical Waters include Gyarados, Feraligatr, Araquanid, Samurott ... realistically, none is an ideal Blissey answer but Gyarados at least can become fearsome with Dragon Dance. You want to run Dragon Dance, Waterfall, and any two other moves that make good sense for your team. Stone Edge? Crunch? Ice Fang? Bounce? Earthquake?
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:35 AM   #4718
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I've tried Superpower on it. Blissey doesn't die and just Softboils back up in health, and Swampert gets a crippling attack drop which prevents it from doing the same thing twice in a row. A competent trainer, seeing that Blissey is going to get KO'd, would switch out Blissey into a physical wall (like Primal Groudon) which forces me to switch. I can handle Primal Groudon at full health, but not with the attack drop from Superpower.

Hammer Arm is something I've thought about.

My initial strategy to beat Arceus was Counter, since the Chople Berry was why I could only do 80% to Arceus with Superpower despite a SE hit, and I couldn't tank another Extremespeed. But Counter was really gimmicky and both Swampert and Greninja need to not take hits as they're the sweepers of the team.

I ran Gyarados for a while. Since it's immune to Precipice Blades and cripples physical sweepers I thought it was good tech. But Gyarados' physical movepool sucks. Waterfall is good, but even a uninvested Greninja does as much damage with Waterfall as a 252 EV Jolly Gyarados. Bounce is terrible and Z-Bounce doesn't kill anything that Pelipper doesn't in the rain with Hurricane. It also isn't physically bulky.

In Ubers, I don't have a single setup sweeper due to the immense pressure opposing teams levy against me. I've won some matchups with Pelipper just because people underestimate how strong it can be offensively - it normally doesn't force a switch.

Only my invested, defensive Pokemon can take one neutral hit without dying. Kyogre - 252 EV SpD, Calm, with an Assault Vest - dies to two Moonblast or two Thunder from +2 Xerneas. Xerneas doesn't even need the +100% Thunder, because Fairy Aura, STAB Moonblast gets +80% and can special drop Kyogre to add insult to injury. In theory, Rest is a good option because Kyogre exists only as a bulky, offensive rain setter,but all that does is buy me a turn.

The massive irony to me is that, though Xerneas carries the bane of a rain team - a 100% accurate Thunder - it's my inability to stop Moonblast that has held me back. Fairy types are just nightmares in general because nothing that works against them ALSO work against Primal Groudon.

I've been looking at Samurott since it's an interesting coincidence that you brought up Oshawott. I'm just not sure a fit is there that bulky Arceus wouldn't already fit.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:34 AM   #4719
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On the other end of the tiers, it feels good to read your opponent like an open book.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:40 AM   #4720
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Was that just a Rest set... with no way to counteract the Sleep at all?! Goodness gracious, that's a pretty dang noobish mistake right there!
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:56 AM   #4721
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Given the set used rocky helmet to add onto the counter damage aspect of it, I think it just didn't have room for a countermeasure.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:57 AM   #4722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I've tried Superpower on it. Blissey doesn't die and just Softboils back up in health, and Swampert gets a crippling attack drop which prevents it from doing the same thing twice in a row. A competent trainer, seeing that Blissey is going to get KO'd, would switch out Blissey into a physical wall (like Primal Groudon) which forces me to switch. I can handle Primal Groudon at full health, but not with the attack drop from Superpower.
You're moving goalposts. Pokémon battles are entirely about board position & advantage. Don't tell me "your answer to a special wall is no good because then there's a physical wall that answers it ". That's literally the game: anyone who brings a special wall is going to be bringing a physical wall also, and answers against one are generally not going to be answers against the other. Were they, no one would bother with the walls.

"What's a good answer to Blissey?"
"Well, Machamp ..."
"No, that's not right. They just switch out to Skarmory and then Machamp loses."
"..."

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I ran Gyarados for a while. Since it's immune to Precipice Blades and cripples physical sweepers I thought it was good tech. But Gyarados' physical movepool sucks. Waterfall is good, but even an uninvested Greninja does as much damage with Waterfall as a 252 EV Jolly Gyarados.
... Nooooo? Greninja's base attack is 95. Ash-Greninja's base attack is 145. Gyarados's base attack is 125. Most people will be running a -10% Atk Greninja (Timid), and once you factor in EVs ... Ash-Greninja's Attack stat is 293, whereas a Jolly Gyarados's Attack stat would be 349. So what you've said is just wrong.

Also, Gyarados already suffers from Four Moveslot Syndrome. Saying "it doesn't have enough good moves in its movepool" is another really strange claim for you to be making. Waterfall. Earthquake. Stone Edge. Bounce. Crunch. Ice Fang. Dragon Dance. Seven moves it wants, and it can only run four. Its only real problem is that moves like Bounce and Ice Fang aren't better than they are. But they're good enough to find usage in OU. You'll find all seven of these moves on recommended Smogon sets the past three generations.

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Bounce is terrible and Z-Bounce doesn't kill anything that Pelipper doesn't in the rain with Hurricane.
Again, your logic is just so twisted. You're comparing physical apples with special oranges, first of all. It's not right to say that Gyarados sucks worse at killing a physically tanky Pokémon than Pelipper. They're generally used to kill opposite things. But second, even if we just compare straight damage output, Supersonic Strike coming off of Z-Bounce does 160 base damage, versus ordinary Hurricane which only does 110. Then there's Gyarados's base Attack stat of 125 versus Pelipper's base Special Attack stat of only 95. 160 off of 125, versus 110 off of 95 ... The damage outputs aren't even close.

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In Ubers, I don't have a single setup sweeper due to the immense pressure opposing teams levy against me.
But Ubers players do. Geomancy Xerneas. Swords Dance Arceus. Swords Dance, Rock Polish, or both Primal Groudon. Calm Mind Kyogre. Nasty Plot Darkrai. The list goes on. Saying "I can't afford to run setup because it's Ubers" is bizarre. Ubers isn't unfriendly to setup strategies. Ubers is setup strategies.

The problem all comes back to your insistence on running a monotype team in a hostile format.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:48 PM   #4723
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Quote:
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You're moving goalposts. Pokémon battles are entirely about board position & advantage. Don't tell me "your answer to a special wall is no good because then there's a physical wall that answers it ". That's literally the game: anyone who brings a special wall is going to be bringing a physical wall also, and answers against one are generally not going to be answers against the other. Were they, no one would bother with the walls.

"What's a good answer to Blissey?"
"Well, Machamp ..."
"No, that's not right. They just switch out to Skarmory and then Machamp loses."
"..."
My bad, but the point still stands: if I can't OHKO Blissey, Superpower is no good because it can't outdamage Blissey before Wish/Softboiled heals it back up. I went through both scenarios consecutively (non-rain Swampert beating his head against a wall).

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... Nooooo? Greninja's base attack is 95. Ash-Greninja's base attack is 145. Gyarados's base attack is 125. Most people will be running a -10% Atk Greninja (Timid), and once you factor in EVs ... Ash-Greninja's Attack stat is 293, whereas a Jolly Gyarados's Attack stat would be 349. So what you've said is just wrong.
Ash-Greninja.

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 109-129 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Greninja-Ash Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 93-109 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- 98.3% chance to 4HKO

That's Jolly and Timid, respectively.

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Also, Gyarados already suffers from Four Moveslot Syndrome. Saying "it doesn't have enough good moves in its movepool" is another really strange claim for you to be making. Waterfall. Earthquake. Stone Edge. Bounce. Crunch. Ice Fang. Dragon Dance. Seven moves it wants, and it can only run four. Its only real problem is that moves like Bounce and Ice Fang aren't better than they are. But they're good enough to find usage in OU. You'll find all seven of these moves on recommended Smogon sets the past three generations.
I've run most of those (except Crunch), Gyarados just doesn't have enough oomf to really get the job done unless specific Ubers matchups I pack a Z-Move to take out one target. Ice Fang for example is to handle fellow Flying-types, but it doesn't have the power to OHKO Yveltal at +1. On a Dragon Dance set, you would think you could set up on a wall or defensive Pokemon, but that isn't the case here, because all Yveltal sets 2HKO Gyarados in a 1v1.

So even if I find an opportunity to setup, it still isn't enough to take out an opponent who doesn't resist the STABs and who I have a coverage move for.

I've found that the only reason to pack Ice is against the Pokemon with double weakness and a resistance to Water (Dragon/Ground, Ice/Grass, Dragon/Flying, Grass/Flying), against those without such water is the better choice.

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Again, your logic is just so twisted. You're comparing physical apples with special oranges, first of all. It's not right to say that Gyarados sucks worse at killing a physically tanky Pokémon than Pelipper. They're generally used to kill opposite things. But second, even if we just compare straight damage output, Supersonic Strike coming off of Z-Bounce does 160 base damage, versus ordinary Hurricane which only does 110. Then there's Gyarados's base Attack stat of 125 versus Pelipper's base Special Attack stat of only 95. 160 off of 125, versus 110 off of 95 ... The damage outputs aren't even close.
Against the targets I'm facing, Z-Bounce doesn't have enough power to OHKO a neutral opponent, like Yveltal or Xerneas. Very few things in Ubers are slow and vulnerable enough for a Flying-type move to be effective: my primary use of Hurricane is for status or to do some chip to a target that can't heal back up. Otherwise I should opt for water.

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The problem all comes back to your insistence on running a monotype team in a hostile format.
There shouldn't be a problem with monotype necessarily! I have Ubers-tier power and speed on my side in the rain. But that power/speed has a massive fall off if you look back further than ORAS. That's why the very first team was Kyogre + Swampert + Greninja + ??? because I had no idea what would work aside from the Pokemon with the stats to pull their weight.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:38 PM   #4724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Ash-Greninja.
Goalposts! I gave you Ash-Greninja to prove my point! You didn't say "Gyarados is only as good as Ash-Greninja": you said he's only as good as G-R-E-N-I-N-J-A! If you're going to cheat and automatically launch yourself into Ash-Greninja, then why don't I go ahead and also cheat by exactly one turn and give myself a free DD?

0- Atk Greninja-Ash Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 93-109 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- 98.3% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 163-193 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

Or if you're more interested in an honest comparison of apples and apples:

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 109-129 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
0- Atk Greninja Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 64-76 (16.7 - 19.9%) -- guaranteed 6HKO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I have Ubers-tier power and speed on my side
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:56 PM   #4725
Ironthunder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
There shouldn't be a problem with monotype necessarily! I have Ubers-tier power and speed on my side in the rain. But that power/speed has a massive fall off if you look back further than ORAS. That's why the very first team was Kyogre + Swampert + Greninja + ??? because I had no idea what would work aside from the Pokemon with the stats to pull their weight.
Just because there shouldn't be a problem doesn't mean there isn't a problem. There's quite clearly a problem. And I think a chunk of it stems back to the unavoidable truth of 'Monowater rain teams in Ubers aren't common for a reason'.
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