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Old 09-17-2012, 02:03 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
Having authority over someone or something automatically implies inferiority to the person or subject being overruled. A husband and a wife shouldn't have one rule over the other, but rather have equal roles in their marriage. Neither the man or the woman have the final say over the other, implying inferiority.
That's exactly what I just said... And after determining the course of action to be followed between the two of them (where each one has equal say), the husband takes the lead to enact the decision, while being supported by the wife.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:20 AM   #52
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That's some nice selective vision there.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
That's exactly what I just said... And after determining the course of action to be followed between the two of them (where each one has equal say), the husband takes the lead to enact the decision, while being supported by the wife.
And why exactly is it the husband? Why can it not be the wife? Why can't they take turns?

I have yet to hear a solid explanation as to why a man is in a higher position of power in your visions. Or why polygamy can only work "one man - many women" but not the other way round, as you've stated elsewhere, if not in this thread as well.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:19 PM   #54
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When I get married, the husband will always lead. Although which husband it is will change from time to time.

I really have a serious problem with the "father knows best" mentality. It really opens up a huge window for abuse.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:23 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaisap112 View Post
I have yet to hear a solid explanation as to why a man is in a higher position of power in your visions. Or why polygamy can only work "one man - many women" but not the other way round, as you've stated elsewhere, if not in this thread as well.
Because the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon, that's why
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:04 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaisap112 View Post
And why exactly is it the husband? Why can it not be the wife? Why can't they take turns?

I have yet to hear a solid explanation as to why a man is in a higher position of power in your visions. Or why polygamy can only work "one man - many women" but not the other way round, as you've stated elsewhere, if not in this thread as well.
Because a family, has been since the beginning, and always will be, founded on patriarchy. I never said they have the higher position of power though. Both the husband and wife make a team where each provides different roles in the relationship. While the roles are different, the power is equal, and one of the husbands roles is to preside over the family, in love, kindness, and righteousness. (Preside does not mean "rule".)

Polyandry, as opposed to polygyny, has not been sufficiently detailed in religion or historical precedent. I can give no definitive answer at this time. Most likely, an answer won't be found until after the Second Coming of Christ.
Although, there is biological precedent for favoring one over the other, that might explain it.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:55 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Most likely, an answer won't be found until after the Second Coming of Christ.

Oh good.
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:40 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Because a family, has been since the beginning, and always will be, founded on patriarchy. I never said they have the higher position of power though. Both the husband and wife make a team where each provides different roles in the relationship. While the roles are different, the power is equal, and one of the husbands roles is to preside over the family, in love, kindness, and righteousness. (Preside does not mean "rule".)
"Always will be"? That has got to be the best way to hinder evolution (biological, sociological etc.). "This is the way things are and always will be, let us not even attempt to change things!"

There was a time when people believed that the Sun goes around the Earth. Then some non-hyper-religious people proved otherwise. All because the current believes of the time were questioned. Tax-haters, at one point, decided to move to a new continent and form a new society (which has later become known as The United States of America) instead of sitting on their butts and going "welp, this is how it'll always be!".

"This is how things will always be", in my opinion, is just lazyness, even cowardice.

Now, since preside =/= rule, why do the definitions of those verbs look like this?

Quote:
preside [prɪˈzaɪd]
vb (intr)
1. to sit in or hold a position of authority, as over a meeting
2. to exercise authority; control
Quote:
rule
v. ruled, rul·ing, rules
v.tr.
1. To exercise control, dominion, or direction over; govern.
2. To dominate by powerful influence.

3. To decide or declare authoritatively or judicially; decree. See Synonyms at decide.
Sure, they're not direct synonyms to each other. But both are, essentially, about controlling someone else. How about you just say "one of the husband's roles is to control/dominate/exercise authority over the family"? And when you actually dare to say that, can you honestly say it somehow makes the roles in a family equal?

Father: And so, son, men and women are equal.
Son: So then why doesn't mom get to make decisions or even lead a family meeting?
Father: Because it is my role to control this family! You silly thing!
Son: Dad, that makes no sense!

And if you could, please don't attempt to pull the "children should never question their parents" -card. That'd just be avoiding the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
I can give no definitive answer at this time. Most likely, an answer won't be found until after the Second Coming of Christ.
Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is truly a solid way to answer in an argument. /sarcasm

Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Although, there is biological precedent for favoring one over the other, that might explain it.
Just like people with weak eyesight get wiped from the genepool due to disadvantage while hunting and in battle, sex can only be had once every nine months because the likelyhood of pregnancy is very high and-

Oh wait.

Don't we have glasses, contact lenses, contraception and the like? You know, inventions that balance the scales?

As unbelievable as it feels sometimes, humans have evolved on an intellectual level and invented items, laws etc. that make it possible for humans to be equal. It wasn't that long ago when white people discovered that black people actually possess souls (this isn't intended as racism, just trying to make a point).

This, of course, required people to stop sticking their heads in the bushes and going "lalala" everytime something new, whether it was an idea or an invention, was presented to them.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:40 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaisap112 View Post
"Always will be"? That has got to be the best way to hinder evolution (biological, sociological etc.). "This is the way things are and always will be, let us not even attempt to change things!"
But we're not talking about evolution here now are we?
The fundamental laws of the universe never change either, I guess they hinder evolution as well?

Quote:
There was a time when people believed that the Sun goes around the Earth. Then some non-hyper-religious people proved otherwise. All because the current believes of the time were questioned. Tax-haters, at one point, decided to move to a new continent and form a new society (which has later become known as The United States of America) instead of sitting on their butts and going "welp, this is how it'll always be!".
We're not talking about current beliefs, we're taking about nature. It doesn't matter what we puny humans thought about the earth and the sun, the sun has always held it's place in the sky, with Earth orbiting around it. Nothing changed except that humanity learned the Truth. The same goes for family, it doesn't matter what we 'think' we know, in the end, we'll know the truth, and it can never change.

And it wasn't "tax-haters" that settled America, it was religious people looking for freedom from oppression, and others seeking a better way of life.

Quote:
"This is how things will always be", in my opinion, is just lazyness, even cowardice.
Since you brought up the topic of evolution. Tell me. When was the last time social orders among animals changed? A Pride of Lions will always be dominated by the strongest male. The Alpha Wolf, leader of the pack, will always be the strongest male. Even if a different species has a differing social order, the social order within a single species will always be upheld. No? Humanity is a species, and we have a particular social order too.

Quote:
Now, since preside =/= rule, why do the definitions of those verbs look like this?
Good job omitting stuff.

Quote:
pre·side
   [pri-zahyd] Show IPA
verb (used without object), pre·sid·ed, pre·sid·ing.
1.
to occupy the place of authority or control, as in an assembly or meeting; act as president or chairperson.
2.
to exercise management or control (usually followed by over ): The lawyer presided over the estate.

Origin:
1605–15; < Latin praesidēre to preside over, literally, sit in front of, equivalent to prae- pre- + -sidēre, combining form of sedēre to sit
Quote:
preside (prɪˈzaɪd)

— vb
1. to sit in or hold a position of authority, as over a meeting
2. to exercise authority; control
3. to occupy a position as an instrumentalist: he presided at the organ

[C17: via French from Latin praesidēre to superintend, from prae before + sedēre to sit]
Quote:
au·thor·i·ty
   [uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] Show IPA
noun, plural au·thor·i·ties.
1.
the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2.
a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?
3.
a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4.
Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5.
an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
Now, since I said Preside (in this context) does not mean rule, we can immediately ignore any definition which includes control or domination. What are we left with?

To sit in a position of authority. Authority, in this context, meaning, the power to determine, adjudicate, and settle disputes. The power to grant permission. And the power to enforce the law.

And from the Latin: "To sit in the front of", or put in other words, "to lead."

Lead. That's a great word. What is a leader? what does a leader do?

Quote:
lead·er
   [lee-der] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person or thing that leads.
2.
a guiding or directing head, as of an army, movement, or political group.
3.
Music .
a.
a conductor or director, as of an orchestra, band, or chorus.
b.
the player at the head of the first violins in an orchestra, the principal cornetist in a band, or the principal soprano in a chorus, to whom any incidental solos are usually assigned.
4.
a featured article of trade, especially one offered at a low price to attract customers. Compare loss leader.
2, A guiding or directing head.

The role of a father is to preside over the family, one who guides and directs the direction of the family.

As I've said before, the husband and wife form a team, unified in purpose. The Husband is the team leader, sitting in front of the family and guiding it.
The Wife is the support figure, sitting right behind the husband, helping him, and correcting his course if it strays.
The Children are the passengers.

Now, is a team leader an over-equal part of a team? Does a Team leader have "control" over the rest of the team members?
Is the driver of a car more equal than it's passengers?
Is a co-pilot less of a pilot because there is a Captain on board?

Is there domination in any of these relationships? Why then would there be a difference for a family?


Quote:
And if you could, please don't attempt to pull the "children should never question their parents" -card. That'd just be avoiding the question.
I've no problem with the parents being questioned, but the children, while they are in the care of their parents do ought to obey their parents.



Quote:
Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is truly a solid way to answer in an argument. /sarcasm
It's better then ignoring it, which I get far more often.



Quote:
Just like people with weak eyesight get wiped from the genepool due to disadvantage while hunting and in battle, sex can only be had once every nine months because the likelyhood of pregnancy is very high and-

Oh wait.

Don't we have glasses, contact lenses, contraception and the like? You know, inventions that balance the scales?

As unbelievable as it feels sometimes, humans have evolved on an intellectual level and invented items, laws etc. that make it possible for humans to be equal.
And yet, while being equal, we still give people control over us: Team Leaders, Coaches, Teachers, Bosses, Violent Criminals, Police, Government, Military Officers, Forum Admins and Moderators...

Curious how that works out.

Quote:
It wasn't that long ago when white people discovered that black people actually possess souls (this isn't intended as racism, just trying to make a point).
Many people knew that long before slavery was abolished.

Quote:
This, of course, required people to stop sticking their heads in the bushes and going "lalala" everytime something new, whether it was an idea or an invention, was presented to them.
Then please do stop and listen.
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