Generation 5 incoming?! You bet! Black & White coming at ya!

[Treepandaone]

Originally Posted by Kindrindra

Personally, I don't worry about entry hazards, but I said that to calm the people (Like ZJ) who do.
Of course, when battling I rarely switch, which is probably why. Myself, I'm actually hoping for more. I mean, If I can come up with some good ones (Flytrap: Grass-type Entry Hazard that works the opposite of Stealth Rock, Landmine: Deals more damage the heaver the switcher, Typhoon: Lowers speed of switcher- the lighter they are, the more the speed is lowered, Frozen Spikes: Greater chance of freezing switcher based similarly to SR, as well as quite a few more), I'm pretty confident GF will come up with some great ones. When people complain about SR... well, usually I just sigh at their weakness, especially as I've had at least one pokemon weak to Rock in every single one of my teams, in fact, in one I have three.

Looking at what you've just said, I'm going to go ahead and make an educated guess that you use a lot of stall teams.

Originally Posted by Salamencia

I'm seriously wondering why Smogon hasn't dropped Magnezone down to UU, and yet Rhyperior, Alakazam and Cress are all there now.

Smogon tiers are horrible.

Originally Posted by Jerichi

I really hope we don't get more entry traps. As we've proved, they're major game changers and I'm not sure the competitive side will like something that big along with it. At least I wouldn't.

Half of Smogon who can't beat entry traps will BAWWW and half of Smogon who stall like hell with be happy. Either way, Smogon loses because 95% of their battlers are terrible.

[Emp]

Treep, are you being serious? I've seen a few of your battles on youtube and your not that great... but the majority smogon players are really good. They dedicate a lot more time to team building and damage calculations than anyone else in the fandom, and their tiers are really thought out. On the subject of Entry Hazards, I think a few others would be fine as long as they didn't stack. That would be seriously broken, SR already dominates the metagame.

[Lady Kuno]

Only problem I have with smogon is the retarded arguments when I used the read their forums. Aruging shit like if the hail glitch is legal and should be in the online program. Also they lose their shits if anyone does an evasion move, despite there being lots of ways to counter stuff like that.

[Treepandaone]

Yes I'm serious. Unless people from Smogon use OUs they suck. It's the same standard team used 100 times over, and if someone get's to 1st on their ladder and posts the team, the exact same team gets coppied and used by badkids.

Also you do know that Yanmega used to be in Smogon UU? Cress is in there FFS. Cress.

[Blastoise]

Originally Posted by Holy Emperor

Only problem I have with smogon is the retarded arguments when I used the read their forums. Aruging shit like if the hail glitch is legal and should be in the online program. Also they lose their shits if anyone does an evasion move, despite there being lots of ways to counter stuff like that.

I think debating the Hail glitch is a fair point if you're building a battle simulator: you have to simulate the games, warts and all.

Evasion moves...let's not get into this argument. Again.

[Jerichi]

I am not much of a competitive battler, but from my experience, I can honestly say that I love Yanmega.

Smogon is dumb.

Also THE HAX CALCULATOR LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Blastoise]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

I am not much of a competitive battler, but from my experience, I can honestly say that I love Yanmega.

Smogon is dumb.

Also THE HAX CALCULATOR LOLOLOLOLOLOL

The hax calculator thing turned out to be a joke (they revealed it flipped a coin if the margin of victory was 2-0 or less).

And for all the tards talking about how "OMG POKEMON X IS UU/NU/PU/FU": the tiers fluctuate based on the current meta (and, IIRC) Shoddy usage stats. Tentacruel used to fluctuate between BL/UU for a while due to its abilities as a spinner, for example. And while Yanmega is cool, with a 50% stealth rock weak you have to be pretty fucking badass to be in OU on a consistent basis, which Yanmega probably is not.

[Jerichi]

Yanmega is a seriously underrated lead.

And you wouldn't strike me as someone who defends Smogon, Reed. Though I do agree that the tiers have some foundation, it does seem a bit inconsistent since it's based solely off their usage. Sure, it's objective, but it's not an entirely accurate means of measuring the potential or usefulness of Pokemon.

[Rangeet]

Tiers are an indicator of how good a pokemon is. As simple as that.
Salamence is OU because it's super. Yanmega would be OU but is BL due to SR. Donphan is UU because usage and it's not overpowered there.
And so on. I defend smogon lol

[Jerichi]

>Tiers are an indicator of how good a pokemon is. As simple as that.

...

...you clearly haven't been reading this discussion.

Tiers are based off monthly usage rates with benchmarks that allow them to qualify for certain levels. Sure, they're related to their ability since the more useful they are, the more use they get, but a lot of good Pokemon that could hold their own in Standard are NU/UU solely because they were outclassed. Flygon, who does fantastically in OU, was UU before Garchomp got bumped to Ubers because it was TERRIBLY outclassed by it's Ground/Dragon relative.

[Blastoise]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

Tiers are based off monthly usage rates with benchmarks that allow them to qualify for certain levels. Sure, they're related to their ability since the more useful they are, the more use they get, but a lot of good Pokemon that could hold their own in Standard are NU/UU solely because they were outclassed. Flygon, who does fantastically in OU, was UU before Garchomp got bumped to Ubers because it was TERRIBLY outclassed by it's Ground/Dragon relative.

I think you just proved his point. Flygon is a poor choice when Garchomp is available, but much better when it isn't. Tier bans will generally do that.

[Rangeet]

Grr. UPN is constantly deleting posts at random. Remind me to tell Kuno about that.

Also I didn't know you both played competive. I knew Chozo did because I saw his account on smogon but not Jeri lol.

Anyway Reed basically said it all. It's like this. Very good: OU. Too powerful for UU but not good nough for OU: BL. Used less and not overpowered in UU: UU. Stuff that sucks: NU.

[Jerichi]

>I think you just proved his point. Flygon is a poor choice when Garchomp is available, but much better when it isn't. Tier bans will generally do that.

"How good a Pokemon is" is poor choice of words, then.

There are some Pokemon who do really well competitively, even when their superior equivalent is around (like Flygon) or are good in niches but not popular enough to get bumped up (e.g. Wailren).

And yes, I did dabble in competitive for a while. I wasn't fantastic but I have a pretty decent knowledge base about it's workings.

[Treepandaone]

Pokemon tiers shouldn't be based on usage, it's a terrible system.

[Rangeet]

Oh god.
What else to base it upon? Basically, if it doesn't get used much in higher tiers(not applicable in OU) AND if it doesn't overcentralize the tier, it's in the tier.

[Treepandaone]

Power.

Alakazam is a good sweeper and rapes UU, doesn't make it UU because nobody's using it in OU.

[Blastoise]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

>I think you just proved his point. Flygon is a poor choice when Garchomp is available, but much better when it isn't. Tier bans will generally do that.

"How good a Pokemon is" is poor choice of words, then.

There are some Pokemon who do really well competitively, even when their superior equivalent is around (like Flygon) or are good in niches but not popular enough to get bumped up (e.g. Wailren).

And yes, I did dabble in competitive for a while. I wasn't fantastic but I have a pretty decent knowledge base about it's workings.

Eh, I think Flygon's absence when Garchomp was in town really shows how effective it is when its "superior" was around. Yeah, I could run a CB Flygon, but SD Outrage Garchomp hurts a lot more.

And niche Pokemon by definition aren't usually as powerful, because they require more concessions in team building or outside factors to make them useful. Walrein has one trick up its sleeve and requires you to build a team around it to make that trick work.

Originally Posted by Treepandaone

Power.

Alakazam is a good sweeper and rapes UU, doesn't make it UU because nobody's using it in OU.

OU has a ton of steel types, Alakazam's defenses are shit, as of Platinum Trick is no longer one of Alakazam's unique selling points, and Choice Scarf + priority attacks means Alakazam's high speed is no longer the defensive buffer it once was.

Shall I continue, or have I made my point?

[Treepandaone]

I didn't say that it should be OU, I said that nobody is using it in OU and for that reason alone, it shouldn't just be bumped down to UU which is what Smogon does.

[Blastoise]

Originally Posted by Treepandaone

I didn't say that it should be OU, I said that nobody is using it in OU and for that reason alone, it shouldn't just be bumped down to UU which is what Smogon does.

By this logic, Caterpie is totally OU.

[Lady Kuno]

Hey now Caterpie can fuck up those Luvdiscs pretty good.

[Emp]

Why do upn threads always go off on a tangent? Hasn't a pokesundae episode just aired? I might be getting confused with last week but I'm pretty sure there where supposed to be some big revelations

[Lady Kuno]

Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite

Why do upn threads always go off on a tangent? Hasn't a pokesundae episode just aired? I might be getting confused with last week but I'm pretty sure there where supposed to be some big revelations

Better off tangent then nobody posting ever.

[Emp]

I know I didn't mean anything by it, I just expexted some info on the new gen as opposed to smogon tiers is all :x

[Treepandaone]

Originally Posted by Blastoise

By this logic, Caterpie is totally OU.

Then whoever judged the power and usability of Caterpie incorrectly is a moron.

[Rangeet]

Yes. Yes it CAN BE VERY WELL bumbed down to UU just because nobody's using it in OU. Then a series of tests will begin. If it's overcentralizing, OK, BL. If not, it remains in UU.