Shiny Legendaries & Ash's Pikachu, Celebi comin' soon. (US)

[Loki]

Originally Posted by Kindrindra

Then how in frells name does Infernape find enough time to NP/SD?

115/85/75 defenses aren't exactly bad.

Fire/Fighting/Rock is a more deadly combination of attacks than Fire/Rock/Normal.

In addition, Infernape does in fact have Swords Dance, which is bigger boost than Howl in this situation.

307 + SD = 614 Atk
329 + Howl = 493 Atk

That's a big difference. With over 600 ATK and a STAB Fighting attack, Infernape can much more easily break a counter than Entei, who only has STAB on Flare Blitz and has no real diversity.

[Kindrindra]

See what you mean- Entei just isn't threatening enough after a Howl.

Choice Band it is.

[Jerichi]

A fun report from some Gen V experience - Stealth Rock is much less of a concern due to poorer distribution, so Flare Blitz Entei might actually have some use! Provided you play Gen V.

Though it still won't switch in too well since its defenses are marginal.

[ObviousUser2010]

I pre-ordered both gen 5 games and will likely have to switch over my guys from soul silver and heart gold to either game. I do have a legit Arceus that I may transfer over to B & W,

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]A fun report from some Gen V experience - Stealth Rock is much less of a concern due to poorer distribution, so Flare Blitz Entei might actually have some use! Provided you play Gen V.

Define "Gen V experience." Stealth Rock is alive and well competitively on Internet sims where it's well-assumed that the relevant 'mons you'll be trading over from 4th Gen to 5th Gen will all have Stealth Rock. The only people who don't get Stealth Rock are (a) 5th Gen creatures and (b) anyone else who has an absolute must-have new ability or new move which thereby blocks 'em from knowing Stealth Rock too.

Believe me when I say I wish Stealth Rock wasn't relevant to the 5th Gen metagame. But it's as big a threat now as it was last summer. Blocking importation of the TM did not mean blocking importation of creatures who knew the move to begin with.

This is the same thing I have to bring up against opponents who get pissy when my Mamoswine OHKOs their Tyranitars with Superpower. "You're not supposed to have that move! >(" they seem to think. Right: because I'm totally going to pick 5th Gen Thick Fat and no Stealth Rock or Superpower over picking 4th Gen Snow Cloak (meh) with Superpower and Stealth Rock.

[Jerichi]

Define "Gen V experience." Stealth Rock is alive and well competitively on Internet sims where it's well-assumed that the relevant 'mons you'll be trading over from 4th Gen to 5th Gen will all have Stealth Rock. The only people who don't get Stealth Rock are (a) 5th Gen creatures and (b) anyone else who has an absolute must-have new ability or new move which thereby blocks 'em from knowing Stealth Rock too.

Provided, I've only had about a week of experience, but I've seen quite a few teams and only a few revolve around Stealth Rock, not necessarily because of the fact that it's inaccessible (though it obviously has less of a spread, proportionately), but because a lot of powerhouse Pokemon can shrug it off and Spikes works a bit better overall.

Also, a lot of Fires are made pretty usable thanks to the fact that Sun teams actually work now. I've been running a Drought team primarily and actually been pulling off some wins with a team of rather uncommon Fire Pokemon. Maybe it's because I have a Spinner, but Stealth Rock has rarely ruined my sweeps or torn my team apart and I have at least 3 Fires on my Sun teams.

>Believe me when I say I wish Stealth Rock wasn't relevant to the 5th Gen metagame. But it's as big a threat now as it was last summer. Blocking importation of the TM did not mean blocking importation of creatures who knew the move to begin with.

It's definitely not irrelevant (I still have been using Stealth Rock, even sometimes on two Pokemon, on a couple of teams) but it's not quite as prominent. Stealth Rocks aren't always thrown out and fewer leads tend to Stealth Rock right away. Since only four Gen V Pokemon have access to Stealth Rock (and none of them are really good Stealth Rockers), there really isn't an expansion on threats for Rockers.

[Loki]

Ah. I see what Jeri means. Stealth Rock is no longer a TM in Gen 5, so only imported Pokemon from Gen 4 will have any Stealth Rock usage in numbers. And by giving your Pokemon a new egg move from Gen 5, you make Stealth Rock illegal on a possible import.

But knowing Nintendo, the 3rd game in the B/W series will have a Stealth Rock Move Tutor or something. :x

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

Also, a lot of Fires are made pretty usable thanks to the fact that Sun teams actually work now. I've been running a Drought team primarily and actually been pulling off some wins with a team of rather uncommon Fire Pokemon. Maybe it's because I have a Spinner, but Stealth Rock has rarely ruined my sweeps or torn my team apart and I have at least 3 Fires on my Sun teams.

Drought teams are fine but they're no Sandstorm nor Drizzle team. The latter, I hear, was recently banned on Smogon in conjunction with Swift Swim because they decided they were sick and tired of people spamming Drizzle Politoed + Swift Swim Kingdra on teams. Fire notably lacks Chlorophyll (which, as the name suggests, is a Grass-type-only boon) so it's not like they get both the power boost and the speed boost. If they did, there'd be a lot more bitching about Drought as well, I wager.

But Sandstorm got a disastrously nasty little toy in the mole this generation. Holy shit: the sand equivalent of Swift Swim is not even anywhere near funny. Doryuuzu (or whatever we'll be calling him now that English names are out) is one hell of annoying and powerful sweeper. Huge attack, huge defense, and Sand Rush for a speed that lets him outpace even unscarfed Starmies and Gengars? Ridiculous. He is the reason I now run a weather move on one guy (e.g. Rain Dance Jolteon): just so I can get rid of sandstorm. If Drizzle + Kingdra is bad, Sandstream + Doryuuzu is ten times worse. At least it has been in my experience.

[Kindrindra]

Yeah, you don't see suicide SE leads as much in Gen V. I think it's less because it's not a TM anymore, and more because of Magic Mirror, improved Magic Coat, Something I'm forgetting (just watch- this was the most important thing), and the fact that Doryuuzu gets Rapid Spin (though SD variants are used much more).

[Talon87]

Nobody runs Magic Coat Espeon any more. It was a short-lived gimmick that was quickly defused once two things happened:

a) generally, people realized that as much as we'd love Espeon to rock, the psychic feline still doesn't rock. =\ It isn't worth a team slot to have her onboard just to "Niener, niener, niener! " the other guy about his Stealth Rocks being bounced back at him.

b) specific to WiFi battles, the moment you see Espeon is even on the other guy's team, you simply know not to Stealth Rock until you've taken Espeon out or until you feel comfortable doing it unpredictably, believing your opponent will not see it coming.

Also, I'll say it again: just because Stealth Rock isn't a TM anymore doesn't mean that this explains why you'd see a drop in its use in the competitive scene. To explain a drop in Stealth Rock use, you have to explain a drop in the use of Stealth Rock on 4th gen movesets belonging to 4th gen creatures. So this is not the answer and it really needs to quit being brought up. Yes, it explains why few 5th gen creatures run Stealth Rock. No, it doesn't explain why you don't see Infernape, Azelf, Mamoswine, or Hippowdon using Stealth Rock much anymore.*

* "anymore" according to you guys. I still see plenty of Hippowdons using Stealth Rock. My Mamoswine on P-O uses Stealth Rock. I don't see Infernape or Azelf period anymore. But there are plenty of others who run Stealth Rock.

EDIT: what was I thinking. -_-; You guys kept suggesting it and I just believed you, but ... "no good 5th gen Pokemon can use SR well?" Uhh, Ferrothorn (alias Nattorei) would like a word with you, Jeri. I see SR-packing Ferrothorns on P-O all the time. All the time. (Pokedex reveals it's an egg move for Ferrothorn. Figures. But he can learn it and oh does he use it!)

[Kindrindra]

>Nobody runs Magic Mirror Espeon anymore

Okay, that's just not true. Magic Mirror Espeon's value isn't in that it can reflect rocks onto your opponent's side- It's that the fear of that stops the opponent from doing so. It's all mindgames. The ability to shut down many Mischievous Heart users is just a bonus.

And, yes, that's exactly my point- bulky pokemon like Hippowdon and Nattetori still run it, but suicide leads are almost non-existent. Stealth Rock is still used, but it isn't as prevalent as in Gen IV- you can actually go up to three battles without seeing it.


In other news, Nattetori is awesome. Spikes, Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, stats that will keep it a premier wall for a long time to come, and the ability to deal some damage with Power Whip and Gyro Ball. Speaking of ability, Iron Barbs is likely one of the best abilities in the game on them.

[Jerichi]

>Also, I'll say it again: just because Stealth Rock isn't a TM anymore doesn't mean that this explains why you'd see a drop in its use in the competitive scene.

That's only like half my point.

>EDIT: what was I thinking. -_-; You guys kept suggesting it and I just believed you, but ... "no good 5th gen Pokemon can use SR well?" Uhh, Ferrothorn (alias Nattorei) would like a word with you, Jeri. I see SR-packing Ferrothorns on P-O all the time. All the time. (Pokedex reveals it's an egg move for Ferrothorn. Figures. But he can learn it and oh does he use it!)

Ferrothorn is a decent SR-er but honestly runs Spikes a bit better since its staying power can let it throw down two layers if it's switched in right. Again, I'm not saying Stealth Rock is irrelevant to the metagame but it's not as wildly centralizing. It's definitely an important element but there are now ways to pull out Fires and Flyers who simply couldn't show up because they feared SR too much. I personally have seen a slight favoring of Spikes, though I think it's probably a bit of an ironic point to make, mostly since the reason it works better is because the ones who are immune to it were driven out by Stealth Rock in the first place.

And I'll definitely agree with you: Sun is no Sandstorm. I have had many a sweep and a game ruined by a Tyranitar. The one thing I like (and honestly prefer) about Drought teams is that since abilities relating to the sun are a bit spread between Fire and Grass, you can have a bit less of a predictable team. However, that is a bit of a problem at the same time since Ninetales doesn't really stand up well against T-Tar, making Sandstorm a huge problem.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Kindrindra

>Nobody runs Magic Mirror Espeon anymore

Okay, that's just not true.

Sorry, but it is true, thank you very much. Play more, speculate less.

Will PM you the rest. Getting off topic here.

[Loki]

I almost forgot about Celebi. Anyone get one yet?

[Kindrindra]

I'm getting one Sunday. That's right, the very last day of distribution. I'm riskay.

[Talon87]

Can we get it online, or do we have to go to a GameStop to get it?

[Loki]

So far everything seems to say Gamestop. By that, I meant I only checked Bulbapedia.

[Loki]

GDI. The local Gamestop relocated like 2 blocks and their new location's internet was not yet ready, which meant no Celebi. /sigh/ Gotta call the others and check if they have it as well.