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Old 10-19-2010, 08:48 PM   #1
Talon87
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Professor Layton VS. Phoenix Wright


Professor Layton And Ace Attorney Co-Starring In Upcoming Title

My two favorite franchises for the Nintendo DS. Crossing over. This is unbelievable.

Oct 20 Update:
Here's the trailer! It's abso-friggin'-lutely AMAZING! I'm getting Professor Layton and the Eternal Diva vibes from this. So many questions though!

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Old 11-29-2012, 01:24 PM   #2
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The second trailer is out. It's an animation-heavy one showcasing much of the effort that went into the game's cinematics and voice acting. And guess who's voicing Phoenix Wright?

The game went on sale today (November 29), reports ANN. Sadly there's still no word on an international release. Hopefully domestic sales are through the roof and encourage a North American publisher to purchase the NA distribution rights from Capcom and take the risk Capcom seems so unwilling to. Or perhaps better yet Capcom changes their mind and releases it here themselves.

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Old 11-29-2012, 11:28 PM   #3
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They would absolutely stupid to not put this out in America. The Layton games and the Ace Attorney games have both sold well stateside, and even if it's for the DS, a lot of people still have one.

But really, why didn't they just make this a movie? The animation looks AMAZING, but on the small DS screen it's going to look pretty weak :/ I've been following this since the day it was announced but... it's definitely a lot different from when it was first announced (As is to be expected), but it just seems like it should have been a movie (or maybe a movie/game combination). Especially given how amazing the Eternal Diva was.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:04 AM   #4
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"Since the day it was announced," it's been planned for release on the 3DS, not the DS. ^^;

I agree it probably should've been a movie. Crossovers in general can be strange. Puzzles in a Phoenix Wright game? Courtroom proceedings in a Professor Layton game? But the fact that Takumi Shuu (Phienix Wright creator) threw his entire weight behind this project rather than PW5 says a lot for how much Team Phoenix is hoping the game is a success. So that's promising. And if I had to pick two franchises on the DS to crossover, I'm glad they went with these two.

Hopefully they bring it over. Looks like there's a ton of audio to re-record though.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:48 AM   #5
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I'm not interested in this (never played a Layton, didn't set foot near that Edgeperson spinoff) but Nintendo would be awful dumb not ta make sure this gets localized one way or another.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:34 AM   #6
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I'm also thinking "why not make a movie/anime out this instead?".

Not really getting the title now, since Layton and Wright will obviously be working together, is that just a common thing with crossover names?

If this comes out in Europe, I'm getting that 3DS, darnit. But keep in mind that we're STILL waiting on Trauma Team and other games that haven't seen daylight here. Ef you, region-locks!
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:37 AM   #7
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What? So you're right... but I remember the day it was announced, was it not initially to be a DS game? Oh well, whatever. That's good news.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:55 PM   #8
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Week 1 Sales is in~

Media Create says... #02 Professor Layton Vs. Ace Attorney - 128,856

Famitsu says... #02 Professor Layton Vs. Ace Attorney - 135,450

A sorta distant second place compared to the top game "2nd Super Robot Wars OG" for the PS3 which was over 200k.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:38 PM   #9
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Reports Kotaku reports Wikipedia, the games have been confirmed for North America and for Europe for 2013. No specific date yet. I imagine it'll be a year, possibly longer. A lot of voice acting to get recorded for no fewer than four main main and three supporting main characters. But hey: it's coming.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
A lot of voice acting to get recorded for no fewer than four main main and three supporting main characters. But hey: it's coming. :)
Alternatively they cheap out like many other localizations and cut voice acting entirely, save for maybe any fmv/animated scenes ~_~
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:16 AM   #11
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I guess I'll just leave this piece of official news here.


And now the true waiting game begins
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:39 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by OkikuMew View Post
I guess I'll just leave this piece of official news here.


And now the true waiting game begins
Hopefully it's not available only as a digital download. Here's also hoping that the complete lack of vocals from that trailer is not reflective of them converting many of the game's originally voiced segments into silent ones.

Those concerns stated, this is excellent news.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Hopefully it's not available only as a digital download. Here's also hoping that the complete lack of vocals from that trailer is not reflective of them converting many of the game's originally voiced segments into silent ones.

Those concerns stated, this is excellent news.
I second those concerns, although I don't mind as much for the digital download (other than wondering if my 3DS will have enough memory to save it) but am really worried about the voicing too, but yes, awesome news are awesome Let the finger pointing fly! XP
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Old 08-10-2013, 08:36 AM   #14
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But isn't it a thing everywhere to show (somewhat) silent trailers until the dubbing gets done? I personally wouldn't expect the game to be left undubbed based on one VA-free trailer alone...

Considering the nature of Prof. Layton, I assume they have to do all the dubbing from scratch - with Ace Attorney, it'd be a slim possibility to leave the Japanese voice-acting intact that you can swap on and off from Options, but if Prof. Layton has puzzles that rely on some language trick (I recall a really annoying one from the first game where you had to name a tool with X amount of letters - fun times for ESL-players! ), they can't really use the Japanese voice-acting.
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaisap112 View Post
But isn't it a thing everywhere to show (somewhat) silent trailers until the dubbing gets done? I personally wouldn't expect the game to be left undubbed based on one VA-free trailer alone...
Yeah, that's my hope there to redo all the dubbing for English ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaisap112 View Post
Considering the nature of Prof. Layton, I assume they have to do all the dubbing from scratch - with Ace Attorney, it'd be a slim possibility to leave the Japanese voice-acting intact that you can swap on and off from Options, but if Prof. Layton has puzzles that rely on some language trick (I recall a really annoying one from the first game where you had to name a tool with X amount of letters - fun times for ESL-players! ), they can't really use the Japanese voice-acting.
Hmmm, well knowing how many cutscenes crossover both, and how the little but present VA in the AA games are always translated (even, on occasions, in languages other than English!) so if they do put dubbing, it'll be everywhere
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Old 08-17-2014, 09:08 PM   #16
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Altaria

Sorry for bumping this thread, but the game comes out on the 26th and I pre-ordered it after being buttered up by the Gamestop employees OTL

no regrets
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Old 08-29-2014, 07:07 PM   #17
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Altaria

Okay so I said it came out the 26th and I was wrong it came out today but

I HAVE IT NOW AND IM SO EXCITED AHHHHHHH
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Credits to Charm for making this!


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Old 08-29-2014, 07:19 PM   #18
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WEEEEEEEEEEEEE IT'S OUT OMG

I'm only gonna get it at Christmas but I DON'T CARE IT'S OUT NOWZ
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Old 04-28-2015, 11:50 PM   #19
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Having just recently re-beaten Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney and wanting to get to Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Dual Destinies, I've arrived ready to play Professor Layton Vs. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. This is the first new Ace Attorney game for me since playing Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth back in like 2010 or thereabouts and is likewise my first new Professor Layton game since around 2010 as well, my last Layton game being the third installment in the franchise, Professor Layton and the Unwound Future. I can't tell you how giddy I am to be playing this game. I'm not normally one for crossovers, but it's hard not to like one which combines my two favorite series on the Nintendo DS. (Pokémon aside, of course. Although ... )

Right now I've just reached the very beginning of Chapter 1, having completed the two prologues -- the Layton prologue and the Wright prologue, respectively -- before it. I've been having a blast with the experience. There's been much in the way of mild disappointments, but these have been offset by multiple great delights.

I won't lie: as I've treated Vs. for the past month and a half as part of my operation to play all of the Phoenix Wright games, I'd all but forgotten on a deeper, emotional level that this game is one-half a Layton game. Like, obviously I didn't forget the fact superficially. Obviously you see the name "Layton" right there in the title -- in the leading position, no less! -- and you know it's got to be as much a Professor Layton game as it does an Ace Attorney game. But because I haven't been treating it that way in my mind for all this time -- because I've had such tunnel vision on "gotta make my way to AA5!" and "gotta catch 'em all play 'em all! Gotta play all of the Ace Attorney games!", I went into this game excited to see how it would fare as a Phoenix Wright game. I think it's important that I preface all this ...

... Because my experience thus far has been magical, and so much of that magic can be accredited to 1) the getting to play my very first Professor Layton game in nearly five years and 2) the childish joy at getting to see Phoenix and Maya "visit Professor Layton's world." Certainly, the Capcom characters feel like guests in Level 5's universe. Now that I actually play the game, Vs. feels much more like a Layton game with PW visitors than it does either a) the opposite or b) the 50-50. All of the Layton music feels perfectly Layton-ey, all of the Layton animations perfectly Layton-ey too. But the PW music feels like ... like a Layton remix of PW classics. Specifically a Layton remix of them, too. The PW characters' visuals may not have the cartoon feel of a Layton universe character, but they too don't ... don't quite feel like they were 100% made or implemented by Capcom. I dunno. I'm sure they probably were, but there's something about them that makes them feel like they weren't, like they were at least 10% (if not more) in the hands of the Level 5 graphic design team.

General discussion but with spoiler elements follows. Safe for anyone who like me has reached Chapter 1.

Spoiler: show
Professor Layton: It was an absolute pleasure to be reunited with Hershel Layton, Luke Triton, Inspector Chelmey, and even Constable Barton. It was great personal fun to see them in 3DS form, seeing as the last time I ever saw them was in the technologically-limited Unwound Future on the DS. Five years doesn't seem like that long of a time in some respects, but in others it does, and when it comes to video games it can be the length of an entire console life cycle. It sure does show here -- for me, I feel like I've stepped into a time machine and am witnessing "the next generation" of Layton graphics. It's really cool. It has almost all of the same charm that the DS classics had (though it might lose a liiiiiiiiiittle bit of that for not looking quite as children's storybook-ish as the originals did ^^; ) but at the same time now looks really polished, really modern, really wow.

One of the classic traditions with the Layton series -- or at least with the original trilogy -- is that the Professor is presented with phenomena which seem paranormal at first glance but which he ultimately proves to be perfectly natural. For instance, in the second game, The Diabolical Box, the player is presented with an antagonist who appears to be a vampire and a box which is said to kill whosoever opens it, but ultimately we find that the latter just simply isn't true and the former is nothing more than a hallucination brought on by the inhalation of a natural gas in the area. All this stated, it's not as though the paranormal flat out doesn't exist in Layton games. (Spoiler.)

Spoiler: show
The third game, The Unwound Future, establishes that time travel really does exist and that Hershel Layton's fiancée really did travel into the future.

So given these facts -- a, that Layton games traditionally have presented the player with seemingly paranormal events only to reveal that they had perfectly possible-in-real-life explanations for them, and then b, that this isn't a 100% thing and that sometimes there really are paranormal things that happen -- it makes me quite excited about the witches and all of the other seemingly supernatural things I've witnessed thus far in the game. Are they really practicing witchcraft? Is magic real? Were Professor Layton and Luke really sucked into a book? Who can say. At this juncture, not I. "Getting there is half the fun," they say, and I look forward very much to the excitement of this journey.

Phoenix Wright: If the Layton prologue was joy from start to finish, the PW prologue started off a little on the weak side -- more on that in just a second -- but worked its way up to incredible heights by the end of it. Well, word choice, word choice ... maybe not "incredible" in the same sense that we would say AA3 Case 5 is "incredible" or that AA4 Case 4 is "incredible," but "incredible" in the sense of fanboy squeals and boyish wonder. I was just ... I was so enthused by the end of that case, for reasons that I will likewise explore in just a sec.

But first. One of the things I wasn't too crazy about was that the PW prologue felt a lot more tutorial-ey than the Layton one did. Obviously they were both tutorials -- obviously -- but the Layton one just felt more organic than the PW one did. The Layton one, they dressed it very nicely. It was practically painless. The PW one, on the other hand, was even more of a hand-holding tutorial than AA1 Case 1 was. And that's saying something. ^^; Maybe a lot of this has to do with the fact that I haven't played a Layton game in five years until now whereas the last time I played an Ace Attorney game was yesterday. I dunno. I just know that the PW case felt like it was on mega, super rails for the first third or half of it.

Another thing I'm kinda on the fence about is how Phoenix and Maya both look and sound. Looks-wise, I don't feel like their character models quite do their DS models justice. It's clear that Capcom is trying to capture their DS essences while transporting them into the new era of 3DS graphics, but there's something slightly ... off about the execution. Maya's "Seriously? -_-;" face doesn't quite look "Seriously? -_-;" enough. Phoenix's "YEAAAAAAARK! X_X" face doesn't look nearly "YEAAAAAAAAAARK! X_X" enough. And even when it's just ordinary Maya that we're looking at, her head doesn't seem to be quite right compared with her DS form. A little too short, maybe? A little too rounded? I dunno. It's hard to put my finger on. Voices ... the voices aren't terrible, but Maya suffers from the distracting problem common to English voice acting of sounding like the 30-year old woman she's voiced by. Maya isn't 30 years old. She's supposed to be in her late teens. She should sound like she's in her late teens. To be fair, even Japanese Maya doesn't sound 100% right to me, but English Maya leaves even more to be desired than Japanese Maya does. Phoenix ... Phoenix is fine. Not how I picture Phoenix sounding, but fine. IIRC he's the same voice actor who provided the "OBJECTION!" voice to begin with, which surprises me since I can't tell and I feel like it's a totally different dude. But whether it is the same person or not, the current voice actor is fine. I'll get used to him, I'm sure.

Okay, so now the positives ... First off, I enjoyed the Layton-style remixes of the classic PW music. I don't prefer any of these remixes to their original versions, but the magical thing about the remixes is that they are perfect Layton-ifications of the original PW tracks. This is the Layton universe's version of "Objection!" This is the Layton universe's version of "Cornered". Don't believe me? Just compare: original "Cornered" (classic ) vs. Vs. "Cornered" (pretty classy, and still fucking epic ).

My No.1 favorite thing about this case: I absolutely loved the cinematic feel during the climax. The part where the camera swivels around Phoenix and we actually get to see that the entire courthouse has indeed been rendered in-engine in 3D (and looks pretty nice to boot) ... the subsequent part where the camera zooms in on Espella's attacker more and more and more as she feels the proverbial noose tightening around her neck ... it was just AMAZING. Absolutely loved it. Cannot wait to see more like this a) in this game and b) in AA5. Man did it look good. Got me so friggin' excited. *Note* Looked for it on YouTube and found it for you: click here and, if it doesn't take you to the right time, drag the timer to 45m13s. It's at 45m32s that you'll see the first thing I was talking about and at 48m28s that you'll see the second thing I was talking about.

Another thing I loved about this case was that Phoenix, for the first time in his career (?), was asked by his client to file a plea of Guilty right from the start. And he flat out refused to do as they asked, instead representing the defendant in court while pleaing Not Guilty. There have been similar things in previous installments (hence the question mark, since maybe I'm misremembering or interpreting things differently from you), but this one really stood out to me and was presented wonderfully.

Really digging the Phoenix x Maya shipping fodder presented thus far. It hasn't been quite so strong as to nauseate those who disapprove of the ship -- or so I feel, anyway -- but has been strong enough to give shippers some smiles. For example, in the protagonists' opening scene, Maya playfully pulls on Phoenix's eye and mouth masks and releases them both, smacking Nick in the face and eliciting a response from him. Yeah, it's kinda mean of her ^^; O-o , but it definitely felt a) generally in character and b) flirtatious / something that a girl might do to the guy she's interested in. Another pellet of shipping ammunition I enjoyed was when Phoenix is introducing Maya to the player and says of her, "And this is Maya Fey, my ... uhm ... assistant, of sorts." D'awwwwww. "It's complicated." [/facebook] And then there was this one, where Maya remarks to Phoenix, "I may be short, but I'm well-proportioned, and that's what matters!" It immediately reminded me of a noticeable jiggle-bounce when Maya was earlier startled in the hallway before the trial began. Normally I wouldn't call something like this "shipping fodder," but the fact that she says it directly to Phoenix ever so slightly pushes it over the fence into Phoenix x Maya shipping territory.

Last edited by Talon87; 04-29-2015 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 04-30-2015, 08:46 PM   #20
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Alright, I am I suspect very near the end of Chapter 2. (It's the second court trial of the game, the verdict was announced, the movie file played, and yeah ...)

Spoiler: show
HOOOOOLY SHIT! That was nuts! This is nuts! (I am referring to the execution, in case that wasn't clear!) But I am getting ahead of myself. Let's break this post up into talking points ...

How Layton and Phoenix meet: This is one of the big ones, but one really easy to forget about now that I'm as far along into the plot as I am. Circling back around to it, I want to share that I thought -- courtesy of the trailer -- that Layton and Wright:
  1. would cross swords
  2. would meet when doing so (i.e. crossing swords) for the very first time
But the reality of the video game couldn't be farther from that truth! When Professor Layton meets Phoenix and Maya, he discovers not fellow souls newly lost from our world into the fairy tale realm of Labyrinthia (though that remains what they truly are) but instead a pair of bakers who claim to have been in Labyrinthia for no less than the past five years. Five years is an awful long time for Phoenix and Maya to be hanging out in Labyrinthia as bakers. And even if we're going to write it off as being magically implanted memories courtesy of the magic which pervades this story, it still doesn't change the fact that Layton meets Phoenix not in a court of law ... but in a bakery. ^^; I did not expect that.

Inquisitor Barnham: When first we learned of "Zak Barnham," I formed the theory that Barnham is nothing more than Carmine's alias in Labyrinthia. That is to say, that when he himself was sucked into the Story and made a life for himself in Labyrinthia, he took on the identity of one Zacharias Barnham, became a High Inquisitor, and ... well, I don't know where to go from there. ^^;

But now that we've met Inquisitor Barnham, I'm not so confident in this theory of mine. Nothing we've seen so far has suggested that people's forms radically change between when they're in our world and when they're in Labyrinthia, and Barnham looks sufficiently different from Carmine (I'll admit it: it's the hair ^^; ) to make me doubt my hypothesis will prove true in the end. Still: it would be an interesting plot twist if Carmine was really trying to get Layton sucked into the Story not as Carmine Accidenti but as Zacharias Barnham, an agent of the Storyteller's, a man who takes pride in his citizenship in Labyrinthia. Who knows. We'll see.

I like Barnham so far, either way. If he's his own person, too, and not an alias of Carmine's, then I favor the odds that he'll become a friend to Phoenix and Layton by game's end. Like, I can picture him being antagonistic towards us for much of the adventure -- even going so far as to throw us in prison and place us on trial -- but I think that in the end he has a good enough head on his shoulders that he will understand the truth behind Labyrinthia that Team Versus is unraveling and that he will not choose to ignore it but will instead accept that it's true and help our heroes to return home.

The Storyteller: I have no idea what to make of him, other than that I get the feeling that he was probably someone else who was sucked into Labyrinthia a long, long time ago, made it his home, and through handwaved means became the Storyteller who held the power to chart the very course Labyrinthia would take.

Owls: So many owls. :> Well, not yet, sadly. But I imagine there will be eventually! After all, the very crest of Labyrinthia / of the Storyteller's is based on the body of an owl. And of course we saw an owl herald in the Great Archives. And then there's the fact that, in the real world, the private girls academy that Espella was said to be a student of was called Owl Cote something or other. Yes. "Owl Cote." As in owl coat {of arms}, maybe? :p

Darklaw: She's obviously the same person as the one high-ranking purple-haired official in Labyrinthia, the one who is to her department what Barnham is to his. Aside from that, anything I've got to offer is guesswork.
  • I suspect she's a pure antagonist but I could see her being a mix too.
  • I suspect she's the head witch of the currently-around witches. (I do not think she's Bezella.)
  • I suspect she's the witch who attacked Layton and Luke in London.
  • I'm not exactly sure what her aims were in having Espella plead Guilty in London, but w/e, all will become clear in due time.
The puzzles so far: They've been fine. I've had to re-do one (which, being a perfectionist, required me to reset my 2DS) and there've been two others that I only got right because the game allowed undo`s and didn't punish me for going down the wrong route the first time. But for the most part, so far the puzzles have been pretty easy. About what you'd expect for puzzles valued at only 20 to (highest I've seen so far) 40 Picarats.

The hardest puzzle I've encountered so far, even though it was technically one I got right in only a single try, was the doll house one. The reason it was hard was, fuck if the dolls' testimonies weren't unclear at first. You have one doll, Doll C, who says she absolutely refuses to be in a room that is "next to" any room occupied by Doll A. Well to me, that means that she doesn't want to be above, below, to the right of, or to the left of Doll A. But it was impossible! And only because of that impossibility did I then consider, "Well maybe when they say 'next to,' what the game designers literally mean is 'to the left of or to the right of,' without a care for above or below." Another doll, Doll B, gave the hideous instructions of "I want to be in rooms that are all on the same row or {column except the word was something else}." Putting aside the { } bit, my major gripe is with the fact that the sentence's wording suggests that Doll B wants to have all four rooms in the same row or in the same column, not what she really wanted -- which was to have no single one of her rooms be alone in both the row sense and the column sense.

Normally I love puzzles like the doll house one, but fuck if poor wording can't ruin a puzzle for you fast. Like I said, I got it right in one try, but I was so put off by the wording that the victory felt like anything but.

English spellings: Speaking of wording, one thing that has brought me no end of mild amusement is all of the British English spellings in this game. I've actually been keeping a fairly rigorous list. Here's what I've jotted down so far. I've got the game's (British English) spellings on the left, and then on the right I've provided their American equivalents:
  • tyre | tire
  • torch | flashlight
  • bonnet | hood (of a car)
  • defence | defense
  • apologise | apologize
  • manoeuvre | maneuver
  • practising | practicing
  • metre | meter
  • judgement | judgment
The British English spellings really lend to the game's flavor. (Or should I say flavour?) They serve as both an obvious and a subliminal reminder that Hershel Layton is English, that his home base of operations is in England, that our story takes place in started off in England, etc. They also just "feel right" for a tale that is ostensibly set in what looks and feels like a Middle Ages European city-state.

Ridelle Mystere: So, this cutie ... From the moment she was introduced, I figured the spiral glasses were hiding a pair of beautiful eyes. Turns out they were! Ridelle isn't just cute on the outside though: her personality is pretty cute as well, in that stereotypical librarian / museum curator fashion. Not much else to say, really, aside from the fact that I haven't gotten a chance to re-visit her yet and thus haven't yet had an opportunity to challenge any of the riddles I missed. (I missed five. One of which was Riddle No.002, something about Barton's Burger ... *sigh*)

Nods to the fans: I like how they've obviously preserved Luke's love of animals. We get to see it in how he interacts with / comments on all of the cats we've met thus far.

I like how, during the second trial, when Phoenix is asked what it is that he does to normally get out of a bind like the one he's in, he says that he has to "flip it around" or some such, and they put the word "flip" in red font. This is an obvious nod to gyakuten, or "turnabout" in the English localization of Ace Attorney games, that is embedded in every AA game title (Japan only) and case title. I only wish the team who localized this game would've caught this and translated it as "turn about" instead of "flip it around." Oh well.

The witch trial executions: Yeah ... so ... putting the end-of-the-trial cart before the rest-of-the-trial horse, I want to discuss the executions that have been shown so far. First we had the one of a (presumably?) innocent girl being burned alive, and then we had the one of Kira the flower girl, also burned alive.

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOLY SHIT. I did not expect to see something like this in this game. In neither a Professor Layton game nor a Phoenix Wright game would I expect to find graphic visual depictions of execution by brazen bull in the form of an iron maiden. The accused is placed inside of a tightly-confined steel cage ... and then said steel cage is dunked, like a tea bag, into a fire pit. Holy shit. What an awful way to go.

What makes it all so much worse is the victims' guilt or lack thereof. Kira is arguably less sympathizable with since she set Espella up for this very same grisly death. But Kira pleas her case thus: she needed Espella to be tried as a witch and executed because a prophecy laid out by the Storyteller claims that when Bezella the Great Witch is so killed, then there will come an end to the "witchenings," to the normal people turning into witches periodically. Apparently you can't just murder Bezella (or you suspect to be Bezella) -- you've specifically got to frame her for the crime of witchcraft and hope that she's tried and executed. In this context, Kira's seemingly ugly act takes on a much more sympathizable, pitiable look. It's no small wonder that, even though they're fiercely loyal to Espella, Team Versus tries in desperation to save Kira but to no avail.

Yet what of the other woman!? O_o The one who we first see getting executed when we arrive? She denies being a witch to her dying breath! And she seems like an innocent townsperson too! Damn! It's one thing to know about the horrors of witch trials, but it's quite another to witness the executions!

I'm astonished that this game is rated PEGI 12. I'm a grown man and I was discomfited watching these scenes. I'd think for sure it'd at least be rated PEGI 16, if not PEGI 18. Damn.

The witch trial (everything else): Well, let's break it down ...

Multiple witnesses taking the stand all at once: This is an interesting mechanic, one that I would not want to see taking over a main series Ace Attorney game but one which I am more than happy to explore in a side game such as this. For narrative purposes -- and I guess just because it feels more real, more authentic -- I prefer the traditional AA approach of having only one witness testify at a time. Also, I feel like you get more bang for your buck, more story that way. In some sense, having the group witnesses provide six or seven different Press Sessions' worth of testimony is not much different from having only a single witness provide you with six or seven Press Sessions' worth of testimony. It's like they're trying to distract you from the fact that you only get one-third as much testimony in this trial as you would normally expect to get from an AA game's second or third trial.

But like I said, it's interesting! And I like it! Not forever, not for my main series, but ... I dunno, it's just a fun, new thing to explore. For starters, it makes it feel like an authentic witch trial. Not that formal witch trials were carried out this way. Just that I think I speak for everyone when I say, "I picture a lynch mob when I think of a witch trial." And that's exactly what these witnesses felt like: a lynch mob, everyone trying to talk over one another, but each of them determined to get Espella convicted.

And the witness format also lent itself to a very neat new game mechanic ...

"Hang On!" - the Question Mechanic: I love this new mechanic! Obviously you can't have it without being able to freely flow between witnesses during cross-examination, something that is ordinarily impossible in AA games. But here in Vs. where we have multiple witnesses taking the stand all at once, it becomes very easy to just swivel between them and to press Witness B when Witness C has said something that makes Witness B react.

Layton and Phoenix tag teaming it up: For the most part, I really enjoy this. It feels like what is at the heart of a great crossover between two great franchises: getting to see Franchise A's star assist Franchise B's star at what Franchise B's star does best. The problem is, so far, at least, it's been a one-sided relationship. ^^; We've had Layton assisting Phoenix, coming up with solutions that Phoenix couldn't think of on his own, yet we have yet to see Phoenix do the same for Layton. I'm hoping we'll get to, as otherwise it'll feel a little more like ... oh! Wow! Can't believe I haven't discussed this yet!

Vs. is very much a Professor Layton game: That's my verdict from where I am right now. When I bought the game, I imagined it would be a 50-50. When I sat down to play it, I had in mind something like a 60-40 leaning towards PW. But in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. The game is much more like a 70-30 leaning towards Professor Layton, and that 70-30 feels like an 80-20. (I'm just trying my best to objectively assess the situation, and my objective assessment is a 70-30.) Don't get me wrong: I'm not talking about chapter breakdown, which is very clearly evenly divided between the two heroes and their respective franchises. No, it's not that. It's ... well:
  • the scenery
  • the NPCs
  • the music
  • the menu screens
  • the gameplay
and more. All of these things feel predominately Layton-ey. Interestingly, almost all of the main NPCs feel more Phoenix-ey. In this group we have characters like Espella, Barnham, and Darklaw. But aside from those few, I'd say most of the characters feel very Layton-ey. Characters like the witnesses in Trial 2, characters like Ridelle and the other inhabitants of Labyrinthia's castle town that we met on the street or saw inside of buildings.

But I digress. The point is, this game definitely feels like "Phoenix Wright visits Layton Land" rather than the opposite and rather than the 50-50. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just something that came as a surprise to me yesterday.

There's so much I could say but this post is already gargantuan and I'd really rather be playing than writing. ^^; So I'll leave it here for now and I'll report back in next time with more thoughts and theories!
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Old 04-30-2015, 09:14 PM   #21
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Eeeeeeeee, Talon's playing PL vs PW~~~~ I look forward to the rest of your reactions to this game, I enjoyed it tons and it's fun to see what you thought of it \o/
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:52 PM   #22
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Alright, so, status update. Right now I believe I'm waist deep in Chapter 03, maybe even neck deep, I really don't know. I can be more specific below so you can gauge if you're as far as I am or not. (Nested spoiler tags a-go-go!)

Spoiler: show
Let's start off with an easy one: if you've reached the end of the very first trial Phoenix partakes in in Labyrinthia, press on.

Spoiler: show
If you've discovered that Eve has gone missing, press on.

Spoiler: show
If you've found Eve, press on.

Spoiler: show
If you've reached the point in the game where Layton and Wright go down separate paths (because Wright is busy being Espella's defense attorney while Layton has been quasi-forcibly summoned to the Storyteller's castle), press on.

Spoiler: show
If you've reached the Storyteller's door but not yet entered, hey, guess what: you're as far as I am too. (Solved the riddle but then Sleep Mode-switched the 2DS off right here.)

So that's how far I am in Chapter 03 right now. Thoughts below!

Spoiler: show
Darklaw: So, right after I decide to call Barnham the "High Inquisitor" in one of my paragraphs last night, the game goes and corrects me not but five minutes later by informing me that:
  1. Darklaw and Barnham aren't in different groups -- they're both Inquisitors. (Huh. Funny. I coulda sworn that Darklaw was alluded to being the head of the third group that was mentioned way back when ... well, whatever!)
  2. Darklaw is the High Inquisitor. Barnham is just a high-ranking ordinary Inquisitor.
So yeah. Whoopsie. Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, Darklaw ... I definitely get the impression that she's going to be the antagonist of this tale, but it's hard to say whether she'll be a full, 100% antagonist or whether she'll instead be an antagonist who is a bit more sympathizable/understandable, maybe even one who herself sympathizes with our heroes.

Could Darklaw be Bezella the Great Witch? It's possible, but I still don't think it's where the game is going. I mentioned last night how I'd considered the possibility but was not running with it. Well, that's still my stance tonight but with slightly different circumstances. I feel like the game has provided more evidence that could suggest, however weakly, that Darklaw is in fact Bezella. But the thing is, Professor Layton games are notorious for their love of red herrings and plot twists. Every time you think you've figured a Layton game out, whoops! The rug is pulled right out from under you by the writers. (I still can't get over the double whammy they hit me with in Unwound Future! ) I feel like "Darklaw = Bezella" is too easy. And because it's too easy, I distrust it. I feel like the writers want me to think that Darklaw is Bezella ... so that when they do reveal who Bezella really is, it will be that much sweeter.

Eve: I'm fairly confident that Eve the cat is either:
  1. Darklaw
  2. Bezella
And of course she could be both if Darklaw is Bezella. (See above for my thoughts on that.) But for now, I'll simply say that I think Eve is at least a transformed witch and that it's pretty much just a question of whether she's Darklaw or Bezella.

One of the points in favor of Eve being Darklaw is simultaneously a point against it: the retrieval scene at the town square. The problem is, Luke exclaims to Maya that he's found Eve several meters away whilst Maya is in the middle of a conversation with Darklaw. Sooooooo, you would think that that would rule out Darklaw being the cat. But! At the same time, it's awfully cliché suspicious that we go on this wild goose chase looking for Eve ... and then right when we think we've found her, we run into Darklaw of all people ... and she's wearing new clothes ... that kinda sorta look like Eve's coloration ... including hair designs that kinda look like cat ears. ^^;; So I dunno! I don't know. I don't know how Eve could be in two places at once, but I also feel like the game developers are making it kinda obvious that Darklaw may be so involved in Espella's life because, lol plot twist, she's Espella's pet cat.

If Eve is Bezella, then it would at least answer the question of where Bezella has been hiding all these years. Darklaw said it herself: Bezella is 99% likely to still be within Labyrinthia and thus has to be hiding in plain sight of the other citizens. It's a lol-obvious plot twist (to an adult, anyway) that while the villagers are all preoccupied with smoking out the witch from amongst their fellow human beings that she is in fact hiding amongst the town's cats. I guess the only problem with the Eve = Bezella theory is that Luke has already talked with Eve (presumably?) and he hasn't had anything to report. You would think that if Eve were Bezella that Luke would've told Layton and the others something! Something about how Eve doesn't talk or think like other cats. Anyway ...

I'm not 100% certain but I feel like I remember seeing a cat hidden atop/amongst the dragon in that painting that was found in the basement of the Great Archive. This is another point in favor of Eve being related to Bezella -- even if she is not Bezella herself, she may well be Bezella's pet cat.

Riddles: The difficulty curve suddenly spiked. ^^;;;; orz Not 100% across the board, mind you, but I've had a couple of riddles now that I've been stuck on for over fifteen minutes. There was one in particular that I only got right because right as I went to turn the 2DS off I noticed the pattern that had eluded me up until then. (It was the one with the mice and the boxes, the one where you have to figure out what separates a good mouse from a bad mouse -- and it's not their clothes or fur colors or the shapes of their tails but is instead ... )

For an example of how it's not across-the-board difficulty, the problem of the Storyteller's door lock was one that I solved on my very first try (no undos or restarts) in exactly four moves.

I enjoyed the knight who lights candles as he falls and the mice, cheese, and mousetraps. (Two variations of the same puzzle.) I also enjoyed the knight's move v.5.0 that they had on display here. O_o When they said "knight's move" at first I was like, "Ohhhhhhhhh nooooo! I'm tired of chess problems in Professor Layton games!" But this one was actually pretty fun!

The case of the alchemist: I don't really know much at all about this case yet. But I expect, given the build up, that it'll be the case we explore next following the exoneration of Espella.

Thought I'd have more to say but I guess not! Still, it's an enormous tl;dr compared with most people's posts so I guess this is as good a place as any to stop here and resume playing. If I remember anything else while playing, hopefully I'll remember it when writing my next post.
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Old 05-02-2015, 06:49 AM   #23
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Tiiiiiny little status update. I squeezed in another half hour or so of gameplay after last night's post, and there are two things of note to discuss before I forget / before moving on with the story.

Spoiler: show
The Storyteller's conversation with Layton and Luke: I don't really understand why the Storyteller was so surprised by Layton's and Luke's presence. I'm sure / hopeful it will be explained later, but for right now it would appear to be a weird plot hole. Obviously Layton and Luke were written into the Story by somebody -- they saw themselves on the pages of the Historia Labyrinthia before being sucked in! Now whether it was the Storyteller who wrote them in or whether it was Espella or Darklaw or someone else, sure, that remains to be seen. But still! The Storyteller acts like these "interlopers" have entered his world without being written into the story ... mere minutes after we witness him writing in his book, (paraphrased) "... And so the two travelers arrived at the Storyteller's home." I mean, come on! You obviously know they're part of your story now, so why give them so much shit over that?

Espella is the Storyteller's daughter: In the words of Maya, "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!?" I definitely did not see that coming! What a twist! It sure does beg the question though: why the fuck would the Storyteller put his own daughter through so much hardship? Just for the sake of a gripping narrative? If so, then fuck that guy! He's a psycho! Surely he could write a compelling narrative without subjecting his daughter to such ...

... Well, then again :\ , maybe the logic here is as follows:
  • whatever the Storyteller writes comes true
  • thus, if the Storyteller wants to write a riveting tale with tragic elements in it, then in real life he'll be subjecting someone to a tragic outcome
  • and since it'd be cruel to do that to strangers, he might reason ...
  • ... he reasons that it is the least cruel to subject himself and his own daughter to these tragic outcomes.
Still though ... Still. ^^;
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Old 05-03-2015, 10:34 AM   #24
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Currently about halfway through Chapter 4. (Phoenix has identified the culprit but has only just embarked upon the arduous task of proving he's correct.)

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I don't really get why Greyerl would've swapped out the Godoor gem for a completely fake, non-magical gemstone. Why not swap it out for an authentic Famalia gemstone? =\ Surely she should've known about the detectability of fakes, what with being an alchemist and all. Likewise, surely she'd have had access to many authentic magical gemstones. Swapping out the Godoor gem for an ordinary amethyst just seems plain lazy, both in universe and out.

It also feels like poor writing to suggest that a large gemstone not carved for being set into a small, flat broach could be swapped in ... or that one that is cut for a small, flat broach could be swapped out and be large. That's not how setting gemstones works. ^^; And I'm pretty sure from what we keep being shown of Talea Magicas in court that the gems set in a Talea Magica are huge and crudely cut, roughly the size of a peach.

Going to Hell for this one, but ... the entire time the game posed the question just now of where Jean Greyerl could've possibly hidden the Godoor gem on her person, I could think of one place and one place only. Hey! It tied in cleanly to the whole "Prove she's a girl!" discussion that was then ongoing! "The one place the knights would have never thought to look ..." (Though on that note, it sure does make me wonder how the police go about searching a woman's body cavities for bags of drugs and other contraband. What does it take to get such a search warrant? How do you even go about doing the search with an unwilling suspect? Geez ... @_@)
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Old 05-04-2015, 06:59 PM   #25
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Currently about one-quarter or so of the way into Chapter 05. Really, I have no way of knowing for certain just how far into it I am, but if the previous chapters are anything to go by then I would gauge that I'm maybe a quarter of the way through Chapter 05.

Spoiler discussion on up through the very end of Chapter 04 but no farther:

Spoiler: show
So there were a lot of other things that I would have wanted to discuss first if I were to take this post in chronological order or logical order or whatnot, but obviously there's one event that cuts in line ahead of everything else ...

Maya's death: Whu-HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!? Noooooooooooooooooo! How could this happen!?

So, lots of different little thoughts on this one ...

First off, I'm not convinced she's dead. Indeed I'm (obviously) convinced that she will not stay dead (if dead), but I'm going that extra step of stating that I remain unconvinced she actually died. We never got to actually see her body, etc, etc. This has actually been true of every execution we've seen so far. I was prepared to write the earlier examples off as professional concerns for the children (who played the game)'s well-being, but now that we see that Maya likewise hasn't been shown onscreen to have actually died, it begs the question of whether anyone at all in our story so far has actually died. Don't get me wrong: I'm not going full tinfoil hat here with this theory and proclaiming it as fact that no one's died. Occam's razor and whatnot, I'm going to comfortably roll with the assumption that Kira and the earlier witch were both truly executed until it's proven otherwise. All I'm saying is, I've got my doubts as to whether or not Maya even really died.

Second, if Maya did indeed die, then I have two spin-off thoughts from this fact. The first of these is, I don't really care for it. ^^; Yes, it's really dramatic, but I much prefer a style of "death" that Professor Layton had -- one where the protagonist is ostensibly "rendered no longer living" but isn't explicitly slain / prevented from continuing to be alive in the future -- to the one that Maya had where it's like ... if she's died by fire, then she's very much, irreversibly dead and the only way to get around it is some overpowered narrative bullcrap like "Oh, whosoever the Storyteller is has the power of Creation and can pretty much do whatever God could do IRL" or "Oh, we did find a magic spell that can be used to bring the dead back to life, how wonderful." The second spinoff thought I have is ... the obvious and already-stated conclusion that Maya will definitely, definitely not be staying dead. Like, it's so obvious I feel like a shameless little 9-year old to even make clear my predictions. But just throwin' it out there: duh there's no way that Takumi Shuu & Co. would kill off Maya Fey in a side game like this. ^^;

All of the above stated, it was super shocking and yeah I'm sad and all I can really think about at this point is how we're gonna get Maya back.

Jean Greyerl: So, Jean ends up confessing to having murdered Sir Belduke but denies that she turned Professor Layton to gold, instead blaming it on Darklaw the witch who we saw visit the Belduke residence in the cutscene where Layton was transmogrified. I believe she's telling the truth, but ...

It feels like the writers produced an enormous, gaping plot hole in Jean Greyerl's story. Because it's just so absurd to argue the following chain of events:
  1. Jean finds Sir Belduke writing the letter.
  2. Jean sets her bedroom wall on fire to justify painting it green.
  3. Sir Belduke continues to write his letter.
  4. Jean enters Sir Belduke's study and paints a very specific square behind his painting green.
  5. Sir Belduke finishes writing the letter.
  6. Sir Belduke puts the letter away in an envelope, but does not place the envelope in his postbox, instead placing it in a holding tray near his desk.
  7. Jean brings Sir Belduke spiked tomato juice.
  8. Sir Belduke drinks a poison draught he's prepared himself, committing suicide.
  9. Jean casts Godoor and sticks her arms through the portal.
  10. Jean gets the letter.
  11. An overwhelming evil overcomes Jean and she decides to choke Sir Belduke to death.
Here's the thing ... or rather, here are the things plural:
  • Why would Jean have needed to justify painting her bedroom wall green if Sir Belduke was already unconscious? She wouldn't have. Thus, we know for a fact that she does this while Belduke is still awake and writing the letter. (That is to say, #3 follows from #2.) This would be fine except ... the game has Jean suggest that she painted Belduke's study before the tomato juice too. This part is too ridiculous to be believed. Why would Belduke allow her to do this, suicidal or not? Why would he not question her?
  • We know that Jean didn't plan this out days/weeks/months in advance ... because we know that she didn't think to do it until she saw Belduke writing the letter, and we know that he wrote the letter with the intent to mail it out the very next morning. Problem is, the game has Jean deliver a line during her confession in which she suggests the passage of days/weeks between when Belduke started writing the letter and when he finished it. Really, game? We're supposed to believe that Sir Belduke took days to weeks to write this letter? Oh come on. It clearly happened all in one night -- just like you originally implied it did.
  • Why would a man as learned as Sir Belduke not leave behind ample evidence for the authorities to exonerate his apprentice Jean? Surely he should have realized that the knights might eventually suspect Jean, especially if they should ever discover that she was a witch. I guess you could scratch this one off the list by pointing out that even being a witch is a crime punishable by death and thus it wouldn't much matter what Belduke had to say to the knights concerning the nature of his death if they found out that Jean was a witch, but still. It just seems incredibly short-sighted of him to have killed himself without leaving more evidence behind to prove to the knights, "Yo, dudes, I killed myself and Jean is innocent. If you want proof, here." On that note ...
  • Why would he even kill himself at home with Jean there? Why not make plans to kill himself after showily dropping Jean off to spend the day/night somewhere with someone else? Like, "Oh, Jean!" (loud voice) "Have fun at the GREAT ARCHIVE today! I will HEAD HOME NOW, ALONE, TO OUR EMTPY HOUSE, and will see you MANY HOURS FROM NOW. Have fun with RIDELLE and the OTHERS!" You know what I mean? Sheesh. This guy really didn't think far enough ahead before offing himself!
While the game does a pretty decent job of getting the player to feel sorry for Jean and not wanting to see her burned at the stake, it's difficult to get around the fact that:
  • possessed by the Story or not, Jean Greyerl willfully strangled Sir Belduke, her benefactor.
  • apparently of entirely her own free will, Jean Greyerl was more than happy to let Maya Fey take the fall for the murders of both Sir Belduke and Professor Layton
So like ... I find it hard to sympathize with her too too much. The game tries to paint her as a tragic PW villainess in the light of Mimi Miney but can't get around the fact that she has more in common behaviorally with a demon like Dahlia Hawthorne.

Espella declaring that she's Bezella: So ...
  • If she isn't really Bezella, then why would she think that killing herself would be helpful? The legend specifically states that the witch trials will come to an end when Bezella is tried and executed, not when someone claiming to be Bezella is tried and executed. If you're not really Bezella, your death does the town no good, girl. The witch trials are going to continue.
  • If she is really Bezella, then why the fuck would Luke, Phoenix, and Maya do everything that they did to try and save her? She's already proven that she's willing to let others die for her continued existence, as recently as the execution of Kira the flower girl, and if what everyone says is true then maybe it's for the best to let Espella die so that the witch trials will come to an end.
Obviously I reject and have long rejected the idea that Espella is in fact Bezella -- it has all the hallmarks of a red herring meant to trick younger players and surprise them with a plot twist that only they won't have seen coming -- but that means that I'm saddled with my first bullet point in the list above.

How do we get around this? Well, this has been foreshadowed several times already now: whenever Espella enters into that trance-like state with the glazed-over eyes, it seems to be the case that her father the Storyteller is puppeteering her, that he ordains something in the Story which goes against Espella's otherwise-free will and forces her to say and do things that she would not normally wish to say or do. So like ... when they showed that scene a chapter or two ago where Espella was in the prison cell and her eyes glazed over, I would guess that it was because her father ordained that his daughter is to be tried and executed as the Great Witch Bezella and thus Espella, her memories re-written by the Story, believed herself to be Bezella and confessed in sincerity.

Of course, the question remains: why? Why do this to your own daughter? What exactly is the Storyteller up to?

The second trial itself: I wasn't too keen on this trial as compared with any other Ace Attorney trials. It ... felt really poorly written at times. Very confusing. Lots of times where I felt completely lost by what the characters were saying. Times when I played in a 30-to-60-minute gaming session, I felt overwhelmed. Times when I played in spots of 5 to 10 minutes at a time, I had difficulty finding my bearings upon return. It just wasn't good. There were a number of times where I had to resort to pure blind guesswork to advance the game and I just happened to get lucky. Like, the time when they were asking, "If Jean Greyerl didn't plan to kill Sir Belduke, then what did she intend to do?" I was so utterly lost because ... well, because there is no way that you can strangle a man who you've intentionally put to sleep with a soporific and NOT be planning to kill him! I hovered over and presented the letter addressed to the Storyteller because WHY NOT, she wanted the letter too of course. But that still didn't answer what her real motive was if not to silence Sir Belduke. And then the game's all, "LOL! Good job! It's the letter! She just wanted the letter! Let's not worry about the strangulation for right now 'cause we just wanted to dock onto Jean's story about the letter. " Oh for fuck's sake.

Emeer was amusing, kinda sorta, but he's the kind of character that because they keep forcing him into every trial I can see him getting old real quick. I dunno. We'll see!

Sir Belduke's daughter: Putting this in its own section. All I have to say is, I don't know who it is. I could guess, but it'd be pretty blind guesswork. The top two guesses I have currently are 1) Espella and 2) the mailwoman. The latter makes sense because Sir Belduke helped her out, she really admires him, etc. So it'd be kinda fitting (though tragic) if he was really her father. The first makes a lot less sense to me with where I am in the story, but it'd be the bigger dramatic twist. "Espella was never the Storyteller's daughter to begin with: she was Sir Belduke's daughter all along." Could explain why the Storyteller puts her through so much shit, for starters. ^^; I dunno. We'll see.

The bell tower: I have little clue what this means, but it gives me Unwound Future vibes. I feel like Labyrinthia maybe possibly exists somewhere in historic London and, whether real magic or whether natural factors, something is making its inhabitants see and feel what looks like a Medieval existence. The bell tower resurfacing the way it did ... maybe it's meant to signify that the "spell" (real or otherwise) is starting to break and that it won't be long before the entire village is returned to what it really looks like. Or something. *shrug* I don't know!

Spoiler discussion from the start of Chapter 05 to where I am in it currently:

Spoiler: show
Inquisitor Barnham: I still like the guy. Like I predicted, he's helped our heroes out even if it means going against the law of the town. Not going to congratulate myself too much on this one because Vs. is still technically a children's game and it was kinda obvious. ^^;

High Inquisitor Darklaw: So like, she's obviously either the antagonist or else a red herring. I'm going to man up and put my money down on "she's the antagonist." If it turns out to be a red herring, oh well, it won't be the first time a Professor Layton game has fooled me. ^^;

The Storyteller: Looks like he's dying? Not really sure what the cause(s) or consequences are of this. Guess we'll have to find out.

Rouge: Don't much care one way or the other. She's kinda a boring cardboard cutout of the character archetype she's meant to represent, but that archetype tends to be one people like and Rouge brings those good properties to the table too, so ... Whatever. ^^; Next.

Rouge's second chalice riddle: Fuck this is hard to figure out without the ability to pause or slow the process down. I've gotten so many permutations where the red cup comes very close to reaching Phoenix, including one early attempt where it got all the way to the very end but knocked the final green cup into his waiting arms instead. Because there are so many different ways to get the red cup at least halfway across the table and to get at least half of the green cups out of the way, it's really, really tough to know whether you're trying to perfect a lost cause or not. I really wish there were a penalty-free way to know which of the green cups you are meant to knock out of the way second. (Not first. Second.) Oh well. I'll figure it out eventually!
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