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Old 11-13-2011, 03:39 PM   #251
Talon87
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As far as Caster being creepy-evil goes, I guess it's door-in-the-face. As far as Caster being over and done with ... (stuff informed by book knowledge)

Spoiler: show
Remember in FSN we learn that in the 4th War there was an epic fight near the bridge that connects the two halves of Fuyuki City? Remember how Saber (or somebody) comments on it to Shirou and we learn that it was a place where an epic "boom" took place and it caused a permanent change in the terrain there? Well, I'm pretty sure that this fight is between Saber and Caster. And since we're all the way in the Einzbern Forest right now, nowhere near the bridge, that has to mean that Caster somehow frees himself from this conflict, against all odds, and doesn't die just yet.

Furthermore, it isn't a one-sided battle either. I'm pretty sure that I have some idea of what Caster summons at this battle, given the artwork in the book and given what I think I've read or heard in random places, and ... yeah.

(even larger spoilers; click at your own risk!)
Spoiler: show
He basically summons this enormous tentacle leviathan. Afaik it is the leviathan which Saber fights, not Caster proper, and it is the Leviathan which eats a fully-charged Excalibur to the face, permanently modifying the terrain in that area. In other words ... I don't think any of the seven Servants actually die until Volume 3. ^^; Unlike in FSN where so many of them die off so early in the various paths, in F/Z they seem to be kept alive for quite a while, partly to please the fans who want to see all of these Servants do memorable things and partly for Gen himself, I suspect, so he could write using all of his playthings for as long as possible.
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Old 11-21-2011, 03:57 PM   #252
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Episode 08 Pictures (w/ discussion)
Spoiler: show
Kiritsugu finally got to show off what a badass he is in this episode. It's been a long time coming, with Kiritsugu consistently outshined by other competitors in the war, Masters and Servants alike, but in this episode he finally gets to show us why he's known as the Magus Killer. There were a lot of good close-up shots of Kiritsugu's face; this is only one of them. I think it's funny how much Kiritsugu looks like Spike Spiegel, though, from Cowboy Bebop.

As I'll discuss more in the next post, Kirei got to show us how much of a badass he was back during the 4th War. Holy cow, I sorely underestimated this guy. It was a sheer delight to see him living up to what it means to be an Executor (even if, by his own modest admission in Heavens Feel, he wasn't a very good one).

I couldn't have imagined Kayneth's fall any better if I'd tried. Urobuchi Gen does a good job showing how Kayneth's arrogance led to his downfall as well as how he was so badly outclassed by the very vermin he saw himself superior to. But the real props go to ufotable for bringing Gen's words to life onscreen. Holy cow did they sell the message well by way of animation! From the disheveled hair and the maddened eyes to the gritted teeth forming something of a sadistic snarl, they did a superb job animating what Gen probably tried to explain in words in the book. Good job, guys!

Irisviel was the star, or at least one of the stars, of this week's episode. It's no coincidence that the episode opens and ends with her. Here she is at the start of the episode.

Here's Iri when she faces down Kirei.

Iri's falcon makes its long-awaited debut. Before it showed up, I had completely forgotten about it, making its arrival all the more sweet and powerful for me. What a scene! (More on that in the next post.)

Iri is so cute when she's being a badass. I could just kiss her in that last pic.

Yuki: Okaaaaaaaay, Talon. ¬_¬

.................. so cute.

I had forgotten how gorgeous Iri looks in her white dress with the gold trim. Oh my word. If my waifu Minami Haruka were to cosplay as Irisviel, I think I'd pass out from sheer adorable overload.

Yuki: TALON!

SO CUTE. >.<


I didn't expect Iri to die here -- way too soon, plus she has all of that awesome healing magic -- but this still was a *HRNGH!* ;_; scene to watch. ufotable proves once again that they are able to transform NasuVerse stories into the pinnacles of perfection with how well they executed Iri's face full of disdain for Kirei, how he clasped his hand over her mouth and then skewered her, the face and scream she made when that happened, and then how he tossed her like a rag doll to the ground. Really compelling animation that really drives home the story Urobuchi Gen wanted to tell.

And so here's Iri at the end of the episode, still very much alive. (Yay! ^-^) I didn't see the Avalon plot twist coming though. More on that in the next post.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:36 PM   #253
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So, I watched Episode 08 Saturday night. It was spectacular. One of the best episodes yet, to be sure. So much happened that I want to discuss, but I'm afraid that, much like with last week's episode, what I have to say will get much too long and no one will want to read it all. So ... I'll try and restrain myself a bit more this week. I'll address things as they came up in the order they came up and offer some brief thoughts.

Spoiler: show
The episode is split into three different battlefields: the Castle Einzbern, where Kiritsugu is fighting Kayneth El Melloi Archibald; the Einzbern Forest very near to the castle, where Irisviel and Maiya intercept Kotomine Kirei; and the Einzbern Forest farther away from the castle, where Saber and Lancer are tag-teaming against Caster and his tentacle monsters.

Kiritsugu's Revolver:
This was pretty cool. We knew it probably had a magic-cancelling ability like this, and sure enough it did, but still: it was cool to see it happen, and it's no small feat, bullet or no bullet, for a magus to come up with something which can cancel any kind of magical defense.

Kirei the Badass:
So we see Kirei running through the forest to get to Kiritsugu and pretty soon he's fighting with Maiya and Iri instead as the two ladies try to keep Kotomine from reaching the love of their lives. We'd already seen Kirei being something of a badass in previous episodes with his wielding of the Darks, but holy cow was he amazing in this episode. Super speed? The ability to deflect bullets with his skin? Amazing martial arts prowess that allowed him to destroy Maiya's breastbone in one hit and completely knock her out of the fight? And then that tree scene! Kirei proved to us in this week's episode that he was one hell of a contender for the Grail and that, even if his Servant (Assassin) was a classically weak pick, he's more than capable of handling most of these magi mono e mono.

Irisviel vs. Kirei
This was my favorite part of the episode by far. Absolutely loved it when Iri summoned her falcon. The music that played during this scene was incredible. So too was the animation. Loved seeing how they animated the ropes roping around Kirei's arms and such. It was really, really cool. It's kind of a shame it was so short-lived. After having seen this picture in the book (click here) since ages ago and being so excited about it (since it showed the lovely Iri being all badass ), it's surprising that I could forget about it in the brief span of time between when the show began and when this episode aired.

Saber and Lancer vs. Caster
Kind of surprising that the fight between the Servants would end up being the least exciting of the three battles. But it was, and for a variety of reasons. One: I already knew that none of the three were going to die in this skirmish so that removed a lot of the tension right then and there. ^^; Two: the other two battlefields were just so much interesting. But this was still a pretty good scene, buoyed up by THAT SONG , that lovely song which played during the end of the very first episode. Such an epic piece. I can't wait for the OSTs to come out!

Kiritsugu's Past:
So ... this was interesting. You might have been confused by this scene if you still haven't watched Kara no Kyoukai (particularly movie #5 which deals most heavily with the concept), but in the NasuVerse, people have a word which describes their very being the moment they are born. I don't know about Tsukihime, but in FSN this was explored via Shirou. His origin was "Sword," and it's arguably one part of the reason why he had the affinity to summon Saber but it's more importantly (and much more clearly) the reason why Unlimited Blade Works is his Reality Marble and why his body began to turn into swords in the Heavens Feel path after he attached Archer's arm to his body. You can read more about origins here, but I wouldn't recommend reading the character list that follows unless you want to (kinda minorly? depends on the person how major or minor you feel it is) spoil yourself on the details of Kara no Kyoukai.

So in any event, it was interesting to learn this about Kiritsugu because, to be perfectly honest, I had thought that his magic-cancelling bullet and his Reality Marble were what were going to be his biggest deals. But it seems like this is his biggest deal, and for a load of reasons I'll discuss in the next spoiler box.

I wonder who that woman was in his flashback? She sounded an awful lot like Aozaki Touko.

Theories about what Kiritsugu's origin might mean for the world of FSN as we know it:
Spoiler: show
Kotomine Kirei: he's been such an amazing badass in this war that it's hard to imagine his claims in FSN that he wasn't able to do much of anything. His martial arts training would probably be unaffected by Kiritsugu's bullet but I have to wonder if Kirei isn't going to wind up getting hit by one of Kiritsugu's bullets and if that explains why, in War 5, he kept a rather low profile. However, I should point out that I doubt this theory for several reasons, among them:
(1) he still needed magic (of some sort) to do surgery on Matou Sakura
(2) without any magic, how could we expect him to retain Gilgamesh or 5th War Lancer? Yes, Gilgamesh was partly powered by the war orphans kept in the crypt beneath the church, but Lancer?

But still: it's something worth thinking about.

Irisviel: we know that Kirei ultimately destroys the Grail, right? But that he does so in a way different from Shirou in FSN Heavens Feel, and more akin to Shirou in FSN Fate and FSN Unlimited Blade Works, where he only destroys the vessel but not the True Holy Grail itself. I wonder if, given that Irisviel (as an Einzbern homonculus and vessel for the Grail) is a living Magic Circuit, Kiritsugu will use one of his last bullets to kill poor Iri after he realizes that the True Holy Grail had become corrupted some time during the previous war and in order to put a stop to it he needs to destroy its vessel (his wife Iri ;_; ) by firing his last bullet at her. That would be SO SAD. ;____; I mean, we already know that he has to kill her in the end, but just thinking about it with a specific theory makes it feel that much more real, that much more inevitable. ;____; (Iri, noooo. ;_____; )

Also, some notes (for future reference) about what she told Kiritsugu about his origin:
  • his origin has to do with "severing and binding" and is different from "destroying and regenerating" in the sense that while both may cut a thread, Kiritsugu's then knots the thread back together, producing a new thread (with a knotted tie in the middle) that is distinctly different from what came before whereas regeneration proper would restore the thread to its original (pre-cut) state
  • hence, it has to do with irreversible change
  • she powdered two of his ribs and loaded some of the powder into each of sixty-six different bullets
  • "Your origin will materialize in anything that this hits."
  • Fired at a magus, it severs their Magic Circuits and then reconnects them improperly, thereby ruining the magus.
  • "Mystic Code: Origin Bullet"

Kayneth's near death:
I totally began to wonder if this might not have been how Kayneth were to die. Was surprised when Lancer fetched him and even more surprised when we heard his voice in the sneak peek for next week's episode. But given Doppel's spoiler about Kayneth's wife, I should have known better. 'Cause it seems pretty obvious, given Gen's flair for connecting the myths of the Servants with the lives of their Masters, that ...
Spoiler: show
Kayneth would inevitably murder his own (ex-)fiancée out of rage that she'd dump him for Diarmuid

Kirei kills Iri:
Discussed this in the last post a bit. Was a really surprising, sad scene. I knew she wasn't going to die, but it was still an "Oh no! D: " moment.

Iri comes back! Avalon!
Did not see this coming either. I expected her to heal herself after Kirei left by way of her healing magic. Then when Saber showed up to save her, I expected her to either be saved by Kiritsugu or else by her own weakened self. Totally didn't not see the Avalon plot twist coming. It was very smart of Kiritsugu (in a sense) but ... I can't help but feel that he did this partly because he's hopeful that by virtue of having Avalon inside of her, Iri will survive the transformation into the Grail and will still be able to be with him after the war. Could be mistaken about that, but we'll see.

And that's it! So ... yeah. I ended up writing another tome. But hopefully folks will read it, or at least pick out the bits they like which I've demarcated with bold headers, and that'll be that.
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Old 11-21-2011, 06:10 PM   #254
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TRIPLE POST!

Some interesting insights from the book. Also, an update as to where we are relative to the book.

Spoiler: show
Kayneth's Plan & Motives:
Therefore, Kayneth decided to leave Caster to Lancer, and he himself would secretly enter the Einsbern castle alone. If he wants to claim Caster’s head as his own, all he has to do is to get rid of Saber’s Master at the same time.

Although it is a bold challenge, Kayneth has unshakable confidence in himself. No matter what defenses Einsbern had made, he’s willing to bet the title of Lord El-Melloi that he is able to break it apart. He’s got to show this kind of courage if he wants to amend the defects Sola reprimanded him for last night. For Kayneth, the most pressing problem for him right now is to have his fiancée take back her insults.
So, as you can appreciate, he really suffers very badly from an inferiority complex. It only seems too obvious that, now that he's been turned into a normal man by Kiritsugu's bullet, he's going to feel utterly emasculated by Lancer and Sora as she throws herself at the handsome Irish hero.


How Kiritsugu managed to injure Kayneth:

I thought that it was because that revolver was special and that it had magic-cancelling capabilities. That certainly seemed to be the case from watching the episode. However, the book's fan translation offers a different explanation:
Although he was at a loss with the unexpected ambush, Kayneth, hidden within the protective membrane, couldn’t help but laugh when he discovered that the attack was a shooting as unthreatening as the last time. But he didn’t know that the opponent he was mocking had also figured out the weakness of his automated defense.

Before the Calico stopped firing, Kiritsugu’s free right hand had already pulled out the Contender and fired a shot at center of the expanded, semi-circular mercury membrane.

Volumen Hydragyrum had already adapted to the best physical shape to protect against the Calico. However, the initial velocity of the .30-06 Springfield is 2.5 times higher than the 9mm bullets, and its destructive power seven times the latter.

Kiritsugu had completely seen through the speed of Volumen Hydragyrum, which came from pressure. Although a blob of mercury can quickly spread out into a membrane faster than a bullet through hydraulic pressure, it is impossible to quickly go back to a blob from a membrane using pressure alone. That is the limit of hydrodynamics.

Therefore, when another sudden massive force is launched against it, the mercury can’t react quickly and form a powerful defense –

A big hole was punched right through the mirror-smooth surface of the mercury membrane. Judging from Kayneth’s wails inside, the Springfield bullet has hit the target.

However, he couldn’t even aim at the target hidden behind obstructions. Therefore, it was already lucky for him to hit the other man; he couldn’t at all expect this attack to give the other a fatal wound.
This seems to indicate that Kiritsugu figured out a flaw in how the Volumen Hydragyrum works, which is still pretty cool, but not nearly as cool as what I thought his gun was previously capable of. Sorry if my own interpretation of what we saw onscreen has mislead anybody.


How Kiritsugu knew his final bullet would work:
In future attacks, all forms of defense should be able to block the Springfield bullet as well. Kayneth would certainly utilize all his prana to strengthen the mercury’s defense.

It wouldn’t be good if he did that.

Kiritsugu, enduring the pain enveloping his body, opened the Contender's chamber and pulled out the empty cartridge as he ran. This time, he slipped in a magecraft bullet.

Kayneth would definitely utilize all the prana he has in his body to anticipate Kiritsugu’s next strike. The previous strike was conducted using the normal bullet just to entice him to be alert.

If things go according to plan – Kayneth is digging himself the greatest of graves. All that's left is to find the way to shove him in, and bury him with Kiritsugu's own hands.
As you can see from this excerpt, Kiritsugu needed Kayneth to use max defense in order for the special bullet to do its thing at max power.


Irisviel and Maiya:

In the book, they do a much better job at showing what Iri is thinking. I mean, I can't really fault the anime for this -- it's hard to do internal monologue scenes well in television or cinema -- and the book is chock full of them. But here, let me at least share this one part. It comes from right before Maiya and Iri encounter Kirei and it helps definitively explain what we could have already figured out by reading between the lines in watching the television episode:
Now, Irisviel understood. The reason why she’s been avoiding Maiya… was not that she was afraid of her, but she was afraid to know her heart.

She was afraid of the truth that she “wasn’t the only woman who cares about Emiya Kiritsugu”.

Irisviel cannot help but to laugh in the exultation that came with the approaching deathmatch.

Pulling out her Calico submachine gun, Maiya gave her a glance of surprise.

“– What’s the matter?”

“The human heart is truly an amazing thing.”

Gambling her life for Kiritsugu – the fact that there is another woman with such determination other than herself.

Clearly, the answer is supposed to be shocking. However, now – such a truth made her feel infinitely at ease.

Explanation about how Kirei survived that bullet fire:

The first set of bullets, the book explains that he dodged. But as for the bullets he clearly took to the arms when he fought head-on with Maiya, the book says:
But Kirei only protected his head; he didn’t bother dodging. Even the sleeves of the monk’s robes were made from thick Kevlar filaments. It was covered seamlessly with the Church’s special protection spells. 9mm caliber pistol rounds, even at extremely close distances, cannot pierce it. Even then, the strikes from 250 foot-pound bullets, firing at 10 rounds per second, struck Kirei’s body like metal bats. However, he was able to completely protect his organs and bones because of his well-trained musculature that acted like armor.

Explanation about Kiritsugu's name:
When the Emiya family of the previous generation determined the "Origin" of their son and heir, at a loss they named him "Kiritsugu" due to the strange results.
切嗣 is how his name is spelled. 切る kiru means to cut. 繋ぐ tsunagu (totally different character) means to tie or to fasten. 嗣ぐ tsugu (his character) is a less common way to spell 継ぐ, and it means to succeed (someone in a business or inheritance). I had to look this last one up. Not really sure why his name would be a reflection of his origin the way it's currently spelled. The first half obviously would be, but I was banking on 繋ぐ's character being how the family wrote "tsugu" for the latter half of his name. Making him "Cut-and-Tie." Instead, he's "Cut-and-Succeed." Weird, but whatever. ^^;


Kiritsugu's Bullet Count:
Kiritsugu had already used thirty-seven bullets, but not a single one of them was wasted. The bullets that were made using a part of his body had already completely destroyed thirty-seven magi. Now, the thirty-eighth "Origin Bullet" severed a new sacrifice’s life force.

How Lancer knew Kiritsugu was Saber's Master:
"– You should understand just how easy it is to pierce you through right here, Saber’s Master."

For Lancer, had he not heard what Saber just said to him, he would find it very hard to deduce that this man in front of him, who looked nothing like a magus, is in truth the Einsbern Master.

Kiritsugu's ... "frustration" with Saber's act:
Although Lancer, the Heroic Spirit Diarmuid, is also naive, it was Saber’s idiotic chivalry, which rivalled Lancer, which completely exceeded Kiritsugu’s capacity of comprehension.
^^;
Her mind probably believed very firmly that Lancer would not kill Kiritsugu. There must be something wrong with her. How could the King of Knights do such a thing like permitting her own Master to be exposed to the enemy’s Servant alone? If Lancer decided to go back on his word, then her Holy Grail War would end right there. Even if that spearman had no such thoughts, if Kayneth remained conscious he could have used a Command Seal of demand it of him. Didn’t she even think of such a possibility? Kiritsugu contemplated this appropriately, and lit the cigarette in his mouth.

How ironic. A Heroic Spirit who single-handedly created an extremely foolish trust with an enemy Servant, while she had great estrangements with her own Master.

It looked like he should have chosen his Servant more carefully after all – only then did Kiritsugu feel this failure with a pang, and puffed out the hazy smoke with a sigh.

As for how far we are, we are through page 155 of 249 of Volume 2 of 4. We are also through Act 7, meaning there's only one act remaining in Volume 2 of 4, and that there are only nine acts remaining in total.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:00 AM   #255
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Blargh, I skipped the Kara no Kyoukai spoiler but opened the Kayneth one. Could offer an excuse of how I assumed you meant the contents were obvious once you knew Lancer's identity, but then that would beg the question of why you'd bother to spoiler it after we'd already learned his name, eh? My brain has just been full of fail lately.

Spoiler: show
Iri's falcon was really cool and pretty, it was my favorite part of the episode as well. Awesome watching her kick Kotomine's butt for a while too.

I didn't expect Iri to die either since a) it's was too early and b) I assumed that for her to inevitably survive, Iri's ascended homonculus status meant she was immortal until the end of the War or something. Then again, we all saw what happened to Ilya in UBW. So the Avalon reveal came as a surprise.

The most interesting and confusing scene was the one about Kiritsugu's past, especially since it involved a mysterious character I'd never seen nor heard of before. Wonder if her identity will ever be explained in the context of the show, and whether she may appear again to play a larger role - though I doubt it.

Again, no Rider & Waver this time. ;.; To be honest, I can't say I'm as particularly thrilled to be watching and learning more about team Kiritsugu and Kotomine at this time. It's cool seeing them do cool things and all, but I'm always more intrigued by the Servants and their abilities since they often tie into actual history. The humans can play with their little magic toys, but dem Noble Phantasms are where the real power's at. XP While the human cast is more interesting this time round (with the exception of Kayneth, whom I think no one really cares about), the few I'm really curious to see more of are the newbies we've never encountered before, i.e. Waver, Kariya, and Uryuu (again, somewhat excluding Kayneth, though the spoiler has piqued my interest). We already pretty much know what Kotomine's deal is thanks to FSN, and while Kiritsugu is an enigma - as are Iri and Maiya by extension - they're bound to be in it for the long haul (well, maybe not Maiya) so I'm not in any rush to explore their development. I'm eager to know the others' stories first before they disappear.

What would really get my gears going is seeing flashbacks to the Servants' pasts - since they're still the major focus for me - and then having them connect to the present. I'd like to hopefully see Gilles and Jeanne, Iskander's conquests, Lancer's lover, etc.

Last edited by lilboocorsola; 11-22-2011 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:26 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YUKI.N View Post
Blargh, I skipped the Kara no Kyoukai spoiler but opened the Kayneth one. Could offer an excuse of how I assumed you meant the contents were obvious once you knew Lancer's identity, but then that would beg the question of why you'd bother to spoiler it after we'd already learned his name, eh? My brain has just been full of fail lately.

Spoiler: show
Iri's falcon was really cool and pretty, it was my favorite part of the episode as well. Awesome watching her kick Kotomine's butt for a while too.

I didn't expect Iri to die either since a) it's was too early and b) I assumed that for her to inevitably survive, Iri's ascended homonculus status meant she was immortal until the end of the War or something. Then again, we all saw what happened to Ilya in UBW. So the Avalon reveal came as a surprise.

The most interesting and confusing scene was the one about Kiritsugu's past, especially since it involved a mysterious character I'd never seen nor heard of before. Wonder if her identity will ever be explained in the context of the show, and whether she may appear again to play a larger role - though I doubt it.

Again, no Rider & Waver this time. ;.; To be honest, I can't say I'm as particularly thrilled to be watching and learning more about team Kiritsugu and Kotomine at this time. It's cool seeing them do cool things and all, but I'm always more interested in the Servants and their abilities since they often tie into actual history. The humans can play with their little magic toys, but dem Noble Phantasms are where the real action's at. XP While the human cast is more interesting this time round (with the exception of Kayneth, whom I think no one really cares about), the few I'm really curious to see more of are the newbies we've never encountered before, i.e. Waver, Kariya, and Uryuu (again, somewhat excluding Kayneth, though the spoiler has piqued my interest). We already pretty much know what Kotomine's deal is thanks to FSN, and while Kiritsugu is an enigma - as are Iri and Maiya by extension - they're bound to be in it for the long haul (well, maybe not Maiya) so I'm not in any rush to explore their development. I'm eager to know the others' stories first before they disappear.

What would really get my gears going is seeing flashbacks to the Servants' pasts - since they're still the major focus for me - and then having them connect to the present. I'd like to hopefully see Gilles and Jeanne, Iskander's conquests, Lancer's lover, etc.
In the second post, I have two spoiler boxes inside of the parent spoiler box. I'm assuming you're saying you skipped the first one but clicked the second. Worst combo, but ....

First of all, you can go ahead and click on that first of the two nested spoiler boxes. It's just me speculating about what Kiritsugu may do with some of his bullets. However, I wrote it before opening the book up for Post #3, and so as I wrote it, I was sort of assuming that Kiritsugu was already down to his last one or two bullets. Or that he would be by war's end. Given that he's "only" used 37 of the 66 he was given, and given that (according to the book) he's only ever used one per target and none have been wasted, it's hard to envision him blowing though the remainder all in the span of the next few acts. But who knows. Who knows ...

Second of all, a lot of what I said in that second nested spoiler is personal speculation given what I learned from Doppel. Over the summer, I was talking about Sora and how beautiful she is. I offhandedly mentioned something about wondering what her fate would be (since we've not seen her in FSN or F/HA) and Doppel answered. I didn't click on his spoiler box -- he warned it was a spoiler and I didn't want to be spoilered -- but when I clicked "Quote" to reply to what he'd said, I naturally saw it at the very bottom of the post. -_-; So what it said was ...
Spoiler: show
Paraphrased, "Sora dies a terrible, gruesome death."

Something along those lines. That's all he said, Yuki. But back to me and my speculation ...
Spoiler: show
Given the legend of Diarmuid ...

And given the fact that Kayneth is clearly a foil for Fionn mac Cumhail, the king to whom Gráinne was promised ...

And given that Fionn took things personally and ultimately had Diarmuid mortally wounded and then deliberately bumbled in giving him life-restoring water ...

It seems likely that, given Doppel's spoiler, the legend is going to be applied here, as well, but with a slight twist: instead of getting his revenge on Lancer as Fionn did Diarmuid, I suspect that Kayneth will get his revenge on Sora (who he no doubt sees as a shallow bitch at this point, given that she's flung herself at Diarmuid and has emasculated him at every turn). Obviously Kayneth will probably not survive this war, but I imagine he'll take Sora out with him. Or something.

Now that you've read this spoiler, though, I can re-iterate some speculation I'd mentioned earlier in the year (before you knew who Lancer was) regarding Team Lancer and how they tie into the whole "Urobuchi Gen really played up the 'the Servants mirror their Masters' gig":
Spoiler: show
Remember what I said in an earlier post: I said that this rule doesn't apply to Team Lancer. It does apply to the following teams:
* Team Rider
* Team Caster
* Team Berserker
* Team Saber (though they may not see it, and in many ways are very different from one another)
* more superficially, Team Assassin (insofar as Kirei is a former Executor and thus an expert assassin in his own right)
* even more superficially, Team Archer (insofar as Tokiomi and Gilgamesh are both smug, overly confident, have this sort of aristocratic superiority complex, etc)

I might even be willing to leave Team Archer and Team Assassin off of that list, but it's pretty clear that the remaining four fit the rule strongly. But the one team that doesn't fit -- the one team that in no way fits the rule -- is Team Lancer. Because Kayneth is nothing like Lancer. So if he's nothing like Lancer, and if Gen was clearly a fan of Nasu's original idea as voiced in FSN about having the summoned Servants be reflections of their own Masters, why the change-up?

Because in Team Lancer's case, the trio perfectly fit the trio of the original myth:
  • Lancer = Diarmuid (literally and symbolically)
  • Kayneth = Fionn mac Cumhail, the main character of the Fenian Cycle and also Diarmuid's lord
  • Sora = Gráinne, the woman promised to Fionn but who fell in love with Diarmuid (thanks to his love spot) and then placed a geas upon him to have him be hers
As in the legend, Kayneth (Fionn) is Lancer's (Diarmuid)'s master. As in the legend, Sora (Gráinne) was to be wed to Kayneth but instead chooses Lancer after she falls under his spell. As in the legend, Lancer "betrays" his master by going off to be with Sora, leaving Kayneth alone and emasculated. And so I suspect that, as in the legend, Kayneth will seek revenge on these two. But instead of killing Lancer (who he's pretty much powerless to kill anyway, I would think ), Kayneth settles for the next best thing and kills "that bitch," Sora. And I say "that bitch" because I have no difficulty imagining that this is exactly how Kayneth will see her in the near future: she was supposed to be his, his trophy wife, and yet at every corner, every turn since this war began, she has been berating him and belittling him for his incompetency as a magus and thus his insufficiency as a man. Now that Kayneth has transformed into a squib, Sora will abandon him faster than you can blink your eyes. And this is going to emasculate Kayneth like nothing else could. To draw a parallel with the Fenian tale of Diarmuid, it would be as though Gráinne pulled out a knife and lopped off Fionn's dick before she went to go and be the mother to Diarmuid's army of children. How emasculating would that be? And that's pretty much exactly how Kayneth is going to feel, I would bet. For the proud Kayneth El Melloi Archibald, life is not worth living if he can't live it as a magus. So since he's already on death's doorstep anyway, he'll pettily get his revenge on his bewitched fiancée, holding it against her that she picked Diarmuid over him even though she couldn't help it. The ultimate icing on the cake that is "Kayneth Archibald is the biggest dickhead in this war."

Make sense? But yeah. This is all my speculation based on what very little Doppel revealed over the summer. So don't feel like you've been mega-ultra-definitively spoilered or anything. Maybe you have -- but only if my guess is right. For now, it's still just a guess, and nothing will be confirmed one way or the other until we see it.

Last edited by Talon87; 11-22-2011 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 11-26-2011, 09:18 AM   #257
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Super late, but I watched the first episode.

There was a lot of magic in it, especially in the eye polish (which more resembled Realta Nua's intro cutscene rather than the DEEN anime or even the otherwise nice Toei animation) but it was everything I expected it to be. Which is to say I don't really feel anything different toward the series than I did before watching Episode 1. 44 minutes was brutal and I wanted to pause and do something else, but I stuck with it. Knowing everything already really does trivialize the experience.

Some notes:

1. The walking scene with Kirei and Tokiomi really annoyed me. It made no sense that the two guys would randomly walk in a circle like some kind of dance, it felt like ufotable wanted to include animation and not seem cheap. They could have done something like have Risei sit down or something for a change of pace, rather than a dumb dance.

2. I liked the scene where Kiritsugu and Kirei were reading each others profiles simultaneously and getting the creeps. That was the climax, I felt, and not the actual summoning later on.

Not to mention...

Haha, that's what you get, Sakura! You're not supposed to say "bye bye". It's "mata ne". You cursed Kariya and doomed yourself!

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
I've watched the first episode three times now. (Twice with Commie's, once with UTW's.) That's three hours, or six anime episodes' worth. If that doesn't tell you how awesome this first episode was, I don't know what will. What are you guys waiting for? Grab it and let's discuss!
?!?!!

How's that even possible?

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Spoiler: show

As in the legend, Kayneth (Fionn) is Lancer's (Diarmuid)'s master. As in the legend, Sora (Gráinne) was to be wed to Kayneth but instead chooses Lancer after she falls under his spell. As in the legend, Lancer "betrays" his master by going off to be with Sora, leaving Kayneth alone and emasculated. And so I suspect that, as in the legend, Kayneth will seek revenge on these two. But instead of killing Lancer (who he's pretty much powerless to kill anyway, I would think ), Kayneth settles for the next best thing and kills "that bitch," Sora. And I say "that bitch" because I have no difficulty imagining that this is exactly how Kayneth will see her in the near future: she was supposed to be his, his trophy wife, and yet at every corner, every turn since this war began, she has been berating him and belittling him for his incompetency as a magus and thus his insufficiency as a man. Now that Kayneth has transformed into a squib, Sora will abandon him faster than you can blink your eyes. And this is going to emasculate Kayneth like nothing else could. To draw a parallel with the Fenian tale of Diarmuid, it would be as though Gráinne pulled out a knife and lopped off Fionn's dick before she went to go and be the mother to Diarmuid's army of children. How emasculating would that be? And that's pretty much exactly how Kayneth is going to feel, I would bet. For the proud Kayneth El Melloi Archibald, life is not worth living if he can't live it as a magus. So since he's already on death's doorstep anyway, he'll pettily get his revenge on his bewitched fiancée, holding it against her that she picked Diarmuid over him even though she couldn't help it. The ultimate icing on the cake that is "Kayneth Archibald is the biggest dickhead in this war."


Make sense? But yeah. This is all my speculation based on what very little Doppel revealed over the summer. So don't feel like you've been mega-ultra-definitively spoilered or anything. Maybe you have -- but only if my guess is right. For now, it's still just a guess, and nothing will be confirmed one way or the other until we see it.
This is nice speculation, but I would warn that Fate/Zero is not simply a re-enactment of the ancient legends pertaining to the Masters. That makes the Masters, rather than the Servants, the pawns in the story. There are parallels, especially in Lancer's case (truthfully, the Urobuchi original characters have more parallel in them than the Nasu invented ones of Waver, Tokiomi, Kiritsugu and Kirei) but not quite as close as you've outlined.

But good job.
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Old 11-26-2011, 09:54 AM   #258
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Oh please. I've watched that episode 3-5 times. It is the antithesis of boring. The fact that you had to force yourself through it reaffirms my advice in the other thread: don't even bother. Clearly all this GRE studying has rattled your brains if you're arguing that Penguindrum is Anime of the Year or that even Haganai and Mirai Nikki are better than this once-every-five-years masterpiece.

The walking in a circle wasn't that bad. It was partly symbolic, showing how Tokiomi and Risei were like sharks or wolves or other circling predatory animals and how Kirei was like their prey. It was also, of course, to actually animate something. I think you underestimate just how many still talking scenes occur in this story. Any opportunity to not bore the audience will be seized upon. Oh, but that's right: you're the one who was already so bored he couldn't wait to quit watching. I guess they were just damned if they did and damned if they didn't with you!

I don't even begin to get your mockery of Sakura.

Even the UBW movie you were more excited about than this. And Kaiji S2 ... Kaiji S2 you were quite eager to watch despite knowing everything. Your illogical claims, your conflicting behaviors, are truly frustrating. But I can safely say this: the Doppelganger I knew in January was very excited for this show. He was a Doppelganger I could relate to. This new Doppel ... this new Doppel is like a complete stranger.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:53 AM   #259
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Oh please. I've watched that episode 3-5 times. It is the antithesis of boring.
Dopple's reaction to the first episode is pretty similar to how my friend felt about it, who knows practically nothing of the FSN franchise. He told me how he kept looking at the clock wishing it would end. Interesting how we have two polar opposites on the familiarity scale giving the same opinions.

I think F/Z is very much a "love it or hate it" kind of show, depending on how invested you are in the characters and their backstories. Talon, you were already head-over-heels-infatuated from even before day one. XP I'm intrigued, but not loyally devoted. You might say our levels of interest in F/Z and HxH are somewhat reversed, where F/Z is something I enjoy more casually. I think it shows I haven't been as excited about the recent episodes, and if a relative newcomer to the story isn't that impressed, I can see how a seasoned veteran would find the series boring. Most of the fun for me so far has been in the speculation of Servants' identities and how they relate to their Masters. With less of that taking place since all the names were revealed, I find myself twiddlng my thumbs hoping next week they'll showcase more Master-Servant relationships.

Basically, I'm curious to know the resolution, but I don't care so much about the process aside from the Servants' involvement. I don't need to know the intricate workings and history behind pretty parlor tricks unless they're somehow steeped in reality. I can only imagine how someone who already knows the operations and outcomes would feel.

If Dopple's disillusioned, we shouldn't force him to watch if he doesn't want to. Attitudes can change over time. If you don't like it, Dopple, don't feel obligated to watch it (only to then come tell us you don't like it).
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:15 AM   #260
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Oh please. I've watched that episode 3-5 times. It is the antithesis of boring. The fact that you had to force yourself through it reaffirms my advice in the other thread: don't even bother. Clearly all this GRE studying has rattled your brains if you're arguing that Penguindrum is Anime of the Year or that even Haganai and Mirai Nikki are better than this once-every-five-years masterpiece.
Coming from someone who watched the original Fate/stay night fourteen times, I can understand how you've been enchanted by it. Whether it's Urobuchi's credentials to reach the potential Nasu couldn't or the focus on brutal action over harem situations, Fate/Zero is "the" show for you this season.

But I feel that you've taken the opposite approach to how I normally go about trying things - my style is to hate something going in and through resistance and attrition, grow to appreciate it. If I fail to like it in the end, I'm more confident that the experience was probably not worth the time spent on it.

Fate/Zero is a good work. I know from reading the story. But I don't think it's Masterpiece quality, and if the anime wants a outstanding rating out of me it's going to have to put up a fight. Even if it were perfect under all conditions, which is the most likely scenario, its ceiling is the strength of the source material, which I find solid but, bless the pure soul, not Urobuchi's best.

Also, I never said Haganai or Mirai Nikki were better, merely that they were more interesting based solely on knowledge saturation. I didn't place Mirai Nikki at the top of my list, it was close to the bottom. It was the last anime I started right before F/Z, and was better than BEN-TO and Guilty Crown.

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The walking in a circle wasn't that bad. It was partly symbolic, showing how Tokiomi and Risei were like sharks or wolves or other circling predatory animals and how Kirei was like their prey. It was also, of course, to actually animate something. I think you underestimate just how many still talking scenes occur in this story. Any opportunity to not bore the audience will be seized upon. Oh, but that's right: you're the one who was already so bored he couldn't wait to quit watching. I guess they were just damned if they did and damned if they didn't with you!
There's a difference between alleviating boredom and drawing attention away from the dialogue. The circling was so obnoxious I tuned out of the conversation briefly to watch them move. It wasn't natural for them to "ring around the rosie" - like I said, having Risei sit down or something, or focus in on stain-glass would have been less conspicuous.

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Even the UBW movie you were more excited about than this. And Kaiji S2 ... Kaiji S2 you were quite eager to watch despite knowing everything. Your illogical claims, your conflicting behaviors, are truly frustrating. But I can safely say this: the Doppelganger I knew in January was very excited for this show. He was a Doppelganger I could relate to. This new Doppel ... this new Doppel is like a complete stranger.
I didn't know everything for Kaiji. I knew how he solved one puzzle, and even then it came out a bit wrong. And if I recall correctly, I procrastinated the UBW movie too even though it was my favourite arc.

It's true that I was dead-beating for the past six or so months, but I'm more or less sane now and in a better position to cross-evaluate what I'm watching. F/Z is going to turn out better than most of the other anime this season. It likely has a lower budget than Guilty Crown but is much more efficient and effective at using it. But I'm not going to get as much mileage out of this anime as I would have several years ago. Certainly more than the lesser shows, but it doesn't have the "power" to hook me like the original did.

I think if TYPE-MOON wants to impress me, Nasu needs to write something new and not expand on ideas he first scribbled in high school. I'm not looking forward to Tsukihime 2 for this reason, it seems derivative of Melty Blood which Nasu didn't even write.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:05 PM   #261
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Fate/Zero is a good work. I know from reading the story. But I don't think it's Masterpiece quality, and if the anime wants a outstanding rating out of me it's going to have to put up a fight. Even if it were perfect under all conditions, which is the most likely scenario, its ceiling is the strength of the source material, which I find solid but, bless the pure soul, not Urobuchi's best.
The lack of coherent logic in this paragraph is why I'm starting to lose my patience whenever you've bring up why you're not watching (or why you're hating on it when you are watching) Fate/Zero. You're not making any goddamn sense. First you say "I don't think it's a masterpiece." Okay, fine. You don't think it's a masterpiece. But then you say "Even if it were perfect under all conditions, which is the most likely scenario ..." as though you do believe it to be perfect. And then as if that weren't bad enough of a logical disconnect, you then go completely off the deep end when you claim that "its ceiling is the strength of its source material." WHAT!? WHAAAAAAT!? Was Star Trek: the Original Series the ceiling for how good we could rate TNG or DS9? Are you saying, "Yes, TNG is objectively an 8.9/10 while TOS is a 6.0/10, but since TNG is derivative of TOS, I can't give it any higher than a 6.0 as well" !?!?!? Are you saying the same thing for Zelda? ("Yeah, Ocarina of Time may be a 10/10 for when it came out, but because it was based off of pre-existing Zelda titles which only get an 8/10 for their time, I'm going to give OoT an 8/10 for when it came out too.") Are you saying that since Ever17 takes place in the same universe as Never7 and has a few of the same characters (e.g. Leiblich Pharmaceuticals), and since Never7 is a P.O.S. title next to Ever17, that you're going to withhold the gold medal from Ever17? Even though you know it to deserve it? This is just fucking insane and very frustrating to hear coming from you. It doesn't make a lick of goddamn sense, not one.

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I'm not going to get as much mileage out of this anime as I would have several years ago. Certainly more than the lesser shows, but it doesn't have the "power" to hook me like the original did.
How is this even possible? Better characters, better plot, better presentation and execution, better animation, better music, better replay value ... the whole goddamn gamut lies in Fate/Zero's favor. Fate/Zero is one of those rare, delightful stories which surpasses its parent. Most prequels or sequels disappoint. By and large, most prequels or sequels disappoint. Few are those who rank Jurassic Park 2 or 3 over the original. Few are those who rank any of the new Star Wars films over the originals. Few are those who rank Back to the Future 3 over the original. Sequels and prequels tend to blow chunks. Badly. That Fate/Zero is not only not bad, not only good, but is in fact actually vastly superior to its parent material is not only uncommon, it's downright rare. Very rare. Yet when it happens, oh, what a treat it is! And that's what's happening here.

Better Masters. More interesting, better backstories, more competent and capable, they do more, etc etc. I'm actually more interested in the Masters this war than in the Servants -- and when you have the likes of Alexander the Great and Gilgamesh dancing around, that's quite a lot to say.

Better Servants. Much more epic, much more fascinating, much deeper, etc. The Servants in FSN were "Oh: token bad guys in love" (Medea), "Oh: token 'I want to be a real boy'" (Assassin), "Oh: I'm somebody you know better than you think you do" (Archer), little gimmicks here or there but otherwise devoid of personality or agenda. What did Medea hope to achieve? What was her wish? We never really got anything out of her. Ditto for Assassin. Ditto for Rider. We never learned any of their wishes, and most of their desires were restricted to "I want to help my Master win at all costs." Yawn. Urobuchi Gen put Nasu's writing to shame with this outing. Now we have a Caster who mistakes Saber for his love in life, the love whose death is what drove him insane, and thus a Caster-Saber relationship. We have three kings, none of whom back down from the fact that they're pretty damn famous kings, and the squabbles from that. Gil-Rider-Saber. We've got Diarmuid's entire backstory being played back out in front of our very eyes in the 20th century. Beautiful, enchanting, tragic. We've got half the Servants' wishes already revealed (Rider, Saber, Caster) or hinted at (Archer) which already places us light-years ahead of FSN where we only ever learned Saber's, Archer's (UBW), and 4th War Archer's. Unlike last time where we barely got to see any of the catalysts used to summon the servants (Shirou's conceptual weapon, Rin's amulet, and that's it?), here we've gotten to see cloth, snakeskin, a scabbard, and a hand-me-down dark magic book, and we'll probably (I'm hoping) get to find a fifth, Berserker's, before all's said and done, placing us well ahead of the Nasu-curve once again. On and on I could go here.

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I think if TYPE-MOON wants to impress me, Nasu needs to write something new and not expand on ideas he first scribbled in high school. I'm not looking forward to Tsukihime 2 for this reason, it seems derivative of Melty Blood which Nasu didn't even write.
This isn't even a fair criticism of Fate/Zero, partly because it's (duh) an FSN fanfic that got the seal of approval from Nasu himself to become canon, so of course it's going to be a derivative work, and partly because it's not even written by Nasu. This is like rejecting the Silmarillion, completed by Tolkien's son, on the grounds that "if Tolkien really wants to impress me again, he'll have to write something new." So what if Nasu never impresses you again!? What bearing does that have on whether Fate/Zero, written by another man, is any good or not?

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Old 11-26-2011, 06:15 PM   #262
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On a brighter note ... watched episode 9 today. It was amazing. Divided into two halves, the first half deals primarily with one team while the second half deals primarily with another. The episode's pre-opening credits scene, however, is the highlight of the episode. While the remainder is quite solid, the opening scene is the very sort of thing which I've spoken out about as setting Fate/Zero well apart from (and well above) Fate/Stay Night in terms of its narrative quality. And that scene is nothing more than one awesome flashback from one of the seven servants' pasts.

Episode 09 spoilers, it should go without saying:
Spoiler: show

I couldn't pick just one image to represent this flashback, so I had to go for all three. ^^; Beautiful Grainne at Fionn's engagement banquet, desperate and sad Grainne begging Diarmuid to run away with her, or Diarmuid embracing Grainne. A tough pick. I was leaning towards #2, the one in the center, but I just couldn't pick.

The first half of the episode is all devoted to Team Lancer. The pre-opening credits scene is, of course, this flashback scene which details how Lancer came to meet Grainne, how the two betrayed Fionn (her falling under the spell of Diarmuid's beauty mark, he falling under the influence of Grainne's geass), how Fionn then lied to Diarmuid and was all like "Let's let bygones be bygones, old chum ," and then how poor Diarmuid died after Fionn allowed him to be injured in the hunting incident and then deliberately sabotaged several attempts to bring life-restoring water to the dying Diarmuid. But after the credits, things focus mostly in the present:
  1. we see Sora has saved Kayneth's life, but not out of love for her former fiancé, no: instead, she's after his Command Spells. And if he won't give them to her, then she'll take them by force.
  2. there's a brief intermission with Kiritsugu explaining to Iri that he intends to pursue Kayneth to finish the job rather than pursue Caster to make sure a few dozen more children don't die before the war's end
  3. we cut back to Sora and Lancer, with Sora trying to persuade Lancer to let her be his new master. He continually refuses, even in the face of Sora having Command Spells, until finally she tells him that this is all so that they can win the war and use their Grail wish to restore Kayneth to his former glory. It's here that we learn what Lancer's wish for this war was -- why he had such a passionate wish that the Grail might summon him, and yet at the same time how he might claim that he had no need for the Grail's wish-giving powers -- and that was because he wished for an opportunity to prove his loyalty to a master, loyalty he could not prove in life.


After this, the second half of the episode focuses primarily on our favorite team, Team Rider. After some comic relief involving the old grandpa and grandma Waver is staying with, we see Waver get to work trying to find a Master for them to take out. His methods are simple, he humbly admits, but Rider commends him for achieving solid results with simple means rather than resorting to complex means to achieve the same results. The two then head out to invade Caster's lair. Pretty cool! Caster isn't home, but Waver and Rider learn some useful things from their outing, namely ...
  • what sort of Master and Servant Uryuu and Caster are
  • that Assassin is still very much alive and/or that there are multiple Assassins
There's a brief cameo from Tokiomi and Kirei, Tokiomi remarking that their side, too, learned something useful from Team Rider's adventure -- that Waver is "a third-rate magus" -- but I neither think that's fair (fuck you, Tokiomi ) nor all that novel of information (shouldn't you have already picked up that Waver was just a child from the battle at the dock?). Tokiomi is supposed to be impressive, but I'd rank him squarely in 5th Place in terms of Master impressiveness, only ahead of Kayneth and Uryuu. Hopefully this will change in the future, be it near or not until the spring when Fate/Zero resumes.

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Old 11-27-2011, 05:18 AM   #263
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The lack of coherent logic in this paragraph is why I'm starting to lose my patience whenever you've bring up why you're not watching (or why you're hating on it when you are watching) Fate/Zero. You're not making any goddamn sense. First you say "I don't think it's a masterpiece." Okay, fine. You don't think it's a masterpiece. But then you say "Even if it were perfect under all conditions, which is the most likely scenario ..." as though you do believe it to be perfect. And then as if that weren't bad enough of a logical disconnect, you then go completely off the deep end when you claim that "its ceiling is the strength of its source material." WHAT!? WHAAAAAAT!?
You've never played, nor likely will ever play Saya no Uta, so you don't have the frame of reference I do with Urobuchi's work. I value strong central themes above everything else, and Urobuchi's best work is extremely thematic, so much so that it compensates for the flat characters in the story.

To put this into perspective, let's say you were watching a chess match. In a character driven story, you'd be watching the pieces and the turn by turn intercourse of how they move/are taken on the chess board. The thematic story looks at the players, but as players and not as people.

Neither Madoka nor Fate/Zero are very thematic. You might disagree, but they are but a bead of perspiration in a dry bucket on an especially arid summer day in Phoenix, Arizona compared with an ocean that is SnU's. Even compared with Kikokugai - The Cyber Slayer, probably the most similar work to F/Z (though more in line with Tsukihime) it's comparing that bead to a small puddle.

Themes are my threshold for a Flawed Masterpiece/Masterpiece rating. They're what I actually like most in the story, so if I could appreciate everything else but not really get worked up over it, it'll get an Outstanding (9/10). I'd also award an Outstanding for titles that I could get worked up over (Giant Robo and Kaiji season 1) but were rough in some parts. This is what I would have given the novel, which is far higher than the pedestrian rating I gave Fate/stay night after finishing the VN.

No matter what, the anime isn't going to get above an Outstanding from me. Adding visuals and better pacing isn't going to make up for the lack of strong central themes that I so like. The voice acting is a treat, but it's just fanservice to me.

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Was Star Trek: the Original Series the ceiling for how good we could rate TNG or DS9? Are you saying, "Yes, TNG is objectively an 8.9/10 while TOS is a 6.0/10, but since TNG is derivative of TOS, I can't give it any higher than a 6.0 as well" !?!?!?
I've only see one episode of TNG, but for the record, I feel TNG probably has a higher ceiling than TOS did since it had access to more science fiction. But that's not the issue here! A more relevant comparison would be a TNG novel adapted into an episode. On your scale, a 9/10 brief could rise to 10/10 on television. I have a high tolerance for poor/non-existent special effects and presentation, so the effect of the transition would be largely lost on me. I'd probably give it a 9/10 in episode form too, unless there was something vague/unclear in the novel that was clarified in the episode. But I doubt that would be enough for me to call it perfect.

I'm not going to say I don't care about graphics. I do. But it's not as important to me as other aspects of story.

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Are you saying the same thing for Zelda? ("Yeah, Ocarina of Time may be a 10/10 for when it came out, but because it was based off of pre-existing Zelda titles which only get an 8/10 for their time, I'm going to give OoT an 8/10 for when it came out too.")
The trick with this comparison is the previous Zelda titles had little to no elaboration on the characters or histories, so people playing OOT had to appreciate 1) that there was elaboration and 2) that they liked the elaboration. I feel #1 depends on #2.

Let's say Nintendo gave Link a romantic interest and that interest was Epona. People who like bestiality rejoice. Most people would have hated this (especially if Epona didn't have a human form or dialogue) but would have preferred Nintendo not do it if they were going down a distasteful avenue.

This isn't particularly relevant to Fate/Zero except in the case of 4th Rider. 4th Rider was mentioned with disdain in Fate/hollow ataraxia but most of his personality was designed by Urobuchi. For all the other characters, their backgrounds and dispositions were either mentioned and elaborated on in FSN or FHA or were completely original for F/Z.

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Are you saying that since Ever17 takes place in the same universe as Never7 and has a few of the same characters (e.g. Leiblich Pharmaceuticals), and since Never7 is a P.O.S. title next to Ever17, that you're going to withhold the gold medal from Ever17? Even though you know it to deserve it? This is just fucking insane and very frustrating to hear coming from you. It doesn't make a lick of goddamn sense, not one.
I wouldn't do that.

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Better characters
I guess?

But the only original characters are Uryuu, El Melloi, Kariya, Maiya, Sophia-Ri, Caster, Lancer, and Berserker. El Melloi replaces Shinji, while Uryuu replaces Kuzuki. Almost everyone else was profiled in FSN or FHA.

I personally felt Uryuu and Caster were a downgrade from their 5th War incarnations, while El Melloi a less repulsive upgrade. The Lancers are equivalent but the Bazett-Lancer duo is superior to the El Melloi/Lancer/Sophia-Ri triangle.

Kariya is a good character, but we already had the half-arsed magus Master who was always destroying himself angle covered in far greater depth in a certain visual novel. Which treatment is superior is worthy of debate. His end was probably the most vivid part of the entire story.

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better plot
It's the same plot, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
better presentation and execution, better animation
Like I said earlier, these features don't make or break a show for me.

There is a threshold somewhere I'd wager. I didn't like the Star Wars novelizations (of the original movie) compared with the movies themselves. But I liked Lucas' prequels even less than those novelizations. Maybe my permutation is, a good novel can't be made into a great movie, but an ordinary novel can be made into a good movie?

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Fate/Zero is one of those rare, delightful stories which surpasses its parent. Most prequels or sequels disappoint. By and large, most prequels or sequels disappoint. Few are those who rank Jurassic Park 2 or 3 over the original. Few are those who rank any of the new Star Wars films over the originals. Few are those who rank Back to the Future 3 over the original. Sequels and prequels tend to blow chunks. Badly. That Fate/Zero is not only not bad, not only good, but is in fact actually vastly superior to its parent material is not only uncommon, it's downright rare. Very rare. Yet when it happens, oh, what a treat it is! And that's what's happening here.
Maybe, but Fate/stay night had a good premise with clumsy execution. There have been billions of fanfictions and doujins taking the FSN scenario and making a better product than FSN itself. It's not outrageous to think an anime version in the vein of one of those would be par or better.

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more competent and capable, they do more, etc etc.
I see that as more of product of a planned RPG scenario rather than a haphazard fight for survival. That wasn't something I could appreciate back when I saw FSN, but I've always disliked how Nasu based the Servant parameters on RPG conventions. He yielded his right to creative license with such statistics and it made him look ridiculous when he broke his own taboos.

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I'm actually more interested in the Masters this war than in the Servants -- and when you have the likes of Alexander the Great and Gilgamesh dancing around, that's quite a lot to say.
I could believe it.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
What did Medea hope to achieve? What was her wish? We never really got anything out of her. Ditto for Assassin.
A lot of people seem to think that Servants are summoned because they have specific desire for the Grail. This isn't always the case because you see a lot of Servants summoned with little to no motivation for it (True Assassin) or those with complete lives, like Cu Chulainn.

Medea wanted a good man, while Assassin wanted a fight. Both got what they wanted without needing the grail. The tragedy with Medea was everything she ever found happiness in was transient, which was why she fought so hard for Kuzuki in FSN. Even if it was a day's happiness, she wanted that day to last forever.

Assassin was as pure a soul as they come - he only wanted a good fight. He got it.

More relevant to F/Z, Iskander wanted to reach the end of the world, the Far East that he never got to in life. Lo and behold, he was summoned in the Land of the Rising Sun! He then promptly changed objectives to conquering the new world.

Archer wanted to kill Shirou, he didn't really care for the Grail.

All of these signs point to the summonings as involuntary but no Fate/ property ever really clarifies this. But it's a reasonable inference that, like how some Masters were chosen somewhat randomly, Servants don't necessarily have strong motivations for being in the Grail War either.

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This isn't even a fair criticism of Fate/Zero, partly because it's (duh) an FSN fanfic that got the seal of approval from Nasu himself to become canon, so of course it's going to be a derivative work, and partly because it's not even written by Nasu. This is like rejecting the Silmarillion, completed by Tolkien's son, on the grounds that "if Tolkien really wants to impress me again, he'll have to write something new." So what if Nasu never impresses you again!? What bearing does that have on whether Fate/Zero, written by another man, is any good or not?
Cause I am sick of Nasu's universe and its fans. Fans like Evospace who deface other titles out of petty jealousy. It makes me want to distance myself from the franchise at all costs. The associations are so loaded I was constantly thinking of power levels when I played the VN, which was why I didn't even talk about my play of it. How annoying is it when you are in a universe that subscribes to the Everett Interpretation, and Archer Arm Shirou is said to have only a 1/10^100 chance of beating Dark Berserker? Talk about emasculation, that kind of explanation completely diminishes Shirou's accomplishment by framing it in the context of population probability! Time to put this way in the back of my mind.

Heck, I even forgot that I never watched a single episode of Kara no Kyoukai until I wrote this post and recalled ufotable did those movies well enough to earn the F/Z rights. Not only had I forgotten I'd not seen those movies, I forgot they existed!

I envy your ability to digest different time travel models in fiction, because my high tolerance for poor presentation/graphics is compensated by an intolerance for inattention to detail. Asking a question but either giving an awful answer or failing to answer it at all when the questioner has more or less promised the audience a good answer irritates me to no end. That's a big part of why I loved Ever17 and Muv-Luv Alternative, but hated Steins;Gate and parts of G-Senjou no Maou.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:24 PM   #264
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Having not finished Fate/Zero yet, I can't really weigh in on whether it's thematically robust or thematically weak. Themes are nice, but I value them much less than (1) plot and (2) characters. There were many themes in Planetes, for instance, but I rarely bring them up because Planetes is such a character-driven series imo and its characters earn that kinda cheatey score of 10+/10 from me. They're just insanely real and very well-done. There weren't really all that many themes in Kaiji, but Kaiji is still an excellent title and that's because rather than explore themes it explores ideas about the human condition. You could call those "themes" and say I'm playing with words, but I really wouldn't label something like "people are inherently selfish" or "nice guys finish last" as themes. They're moreso ideas, concepts, arguments. And so if we are to draw that distinction between themes and arguments, I would say that, even if I can't yet judge how thematically strong Fate/Zero is going to prove to be, I can already weigh in that as far as ideas go it's done a decent job of advancing some. Ideas like ...

Spoiler: show
  • The Superhero Dilemma explored in FSN. You could say that FSN did a much better job with this given that it allocated three separate routes to exploring three distinct outcomes along the Superhero Dilemma Decision axis. You could also say that F/Z gets this idea entirely from FSN. The latter is certainly true, but the former I might contest. The game did a fine job with the Superhero Dilemma, but I think Fate/Zero's done a much more robust job in the form of Emiya Kiritsugu. They gave us this hardened, cold assassin who then found love and became a softie. We also learn that, going how far back who even knows, he's been wanting a world in which there is no suffering. (Basically, a world in which Old Kiritsugu is out of a job! ) His is a very compelling alternate telling of FSN's Heavens Feel path, with Sakura swapped out for Irisviel, with the Fuyuki City victims of 5th War Caster's swapped out for those of 4th War Caster's, and with Kiritsugu being HF Shirou's polar opposite, both in the sense of where they came from and in the sense of what decision they ultimately made.
  • why people fight / what people are willing to die for. Again, you could say that this is also explored in FSN, true, but I think F/Z does a better job with its superior characters. The reasons people fight include ...
    • for a better tomorrow (Kiritsugu)
    • to try and find out who they really are (Kotomine)
    • for shits and giggles (Uryuu)
    • to restore their lost honor (Lancer)
    • to try and rectify a failure in life (Saber)
    • to conquer the world (Rider)
    • to earn others' respect (Waver)
    • for another (Kariya)
    So on and so forth.
  • the whole "the summoned servants are reflections of their masters" idea I always talk about. This is a self-contained idea to the NasuVerse, not one generally applicable to our world, but still: it's an interesting thing to watch unfold in the story.
  • people destroyed by loving another (as seen with Caster and as will be seen later with Kiritsugu)
  • people who find salvation in love (as will be seen in the epilogue / in FSN with Kiritsugu)

Like, I'll totally give you that these ideas don't make the world's most compelling case for checking out the show. They don't read like the list of themes or ideas I could come up with for Romance of the Three Kingdoms or for Karei Naru Ichizoku. But the point is, even if Fate/Zero may not exactly be Theme City, it's still Idea Village.

In any event, I disagree so much with many of the things you said in your reply that I think we're simply at an impasse and should drop this. There are some elements missing from Fate/Zero which to you are core components for a masterpiece but which to me are mere trifles. There are other elements present in Fate/Zero which to you can ruin a story and which to me aren't ruinous at all. Vice versa, there are positive elements in the story which to you are trifles but which to me are deal makers; and there are negative elements missing from this story (and present in many others) which I find ruinous and which you don't really care about. The result, then, is that we have very different opinions about whether Fate/Zero deserves to be called "great" or not.
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:55 PM   #265
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This review of the quality of Fate/Zero's various English-language translations is the sort of thing I do all the time but never this hardcore. (Don't have the time or patience to do something like this.) But this guy did, so thank him for it , and feel free to either read the comparisons line by line or else skip ahead to read the final grades and comments.

LOL about that "UTW's first episode only had TLC for the first five minutes" bit. You may remember that I said something along the lines of "UTW's was better than Commie's in the beginning but then later it had errors of its own." I've been getting both groups' releases and will probably continue to do so as neither is really able to produce the sort of perfect fansubs we came to expect out of a.s.s.'s strato who worked on Suzumiya Haruhi. (Come back to us, strato. ) But it is neat to see this guy confirm what we suspected -- that Commie's good for a very speedy and accurate release while UTW may be what you'll want to turn to for archival purposes for that slight edge in translation accuracy.

It was also neat to see how CrunchyRoll won the contest for the first half of the episode, then utterly lost it for the second half. I've said in the past (when watching Level E) that I've been rather impressed with CrunchyRoll's translation quality. This review puts me back on my toes a little bit (some of the errors in the second half of the episode were ridiculous) but it simultaneously confirms that what I'd said was (sorta) true about CR having good TLs. I guess it all boils down to who do they have working on what projects.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:32 AM   #266
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Watched episode 09.

Spoiler: show
Bawwww at Lancer's wish. ;-; Wasn't all that interested or intrigued by the tale of Diarmurd (or rather the whole "cursed with overwhelming charm" deal), but I'm definitely sold now. Poor guy looked so helpless and uncertain when he was trying to reject Sora's advances - turning his face to hide the mole, doubly confirming she was only doing this for her husband yet recognizing the look in her eyes... Subtle, but sad little warnings that this won't end well for any of them.

Second half was even more immediately depressing. =/ Poor Waver. I think this may be a good wake-up call for the kid though. He realizes now just what sort of deep shit he's landed himself into, and while he's overcome at first, I think his final serious expression in the cap Talon posted says it all: He understands the gravity of the situation, and is willing to shoulder the responsibility. It was nice how Rider tried to protect his young Master from the truth, but even more admirable was his immediate acceptance of both Waver's weakness and strength. He allowed Waver to express emotion while he couldn't, and comforted him by promising they would take Caster down together, rather than trying to shield the boy further. I think this mutual, tacit understanding that neither will back down after having witnessed such a sight shows their partnership has truly solidified.

I also liked how we learned Waver's modest, yet competent method of tracking Caster, which Rider complimented him on as well. Who needs fancy magic when you can achieve the same results using reliably simple skills?
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:06 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Having not finished Fate/Zero yet, I can't really weigh in on whether it's thematically robust or thematically weak. Themes are nice, but I value them much less than (1) plot and (2) characters. There were many themes in Planetes, for instance, but I rarely bring them up because Planetes is such a character-driven series imo and its characters earn that kinda cheatey score of 10+/10 from me. They're just insanely real and very well-done. There weren't really all that many themes in Kaiji, but Kaiji is still an excellent title and that's because rather than explore themes it explores ideas about the human condition. You could call those "themes" and say I'm playing with words, but I really wouldn't label something like "people are inherently selfish" or "nice guys finish last" as themes. They're moreso ideas, concepts, arguments. And so if we are to draw that distinction between themes and arguments, I would say that, even if I can't yet judge how thematically strong Fate/Zero is going to prove to be, I can already weigh in that as far as ideas go it's done a decent job of advancing some. Ideas like ...
I believe I value themes because they're what one can take away from a show and apply to oneself long after the entertainment value of a show has passed. I don't think that just because we're watching anime or playing games and characters have a certain belief or thought process that one should dismiss them because it's fiction. Mythology and fables have been used forever to convey ideas, and stories draw from mythology all the time. They're like lessons, so if one forgets the lesson there is reason to watch the presentation again to regain the understanding. One can't get that from plot/characters alone.

Shows with bad themes/main ideas can upset me for this reason. Gurren-Lagann famously trumpeted the idea that "nothing was impossible" as if manly passion was a form of plot armour that made one invincible. But while this idea was officially carried through, great tragedy followed in its wake. And an even greater one was foreshadowed to be on the horizon. It's a childish mentality to force one's way through things, but no alternative prescription was offered. So one finishes the story wondering what to believe.

Ever17 had "parallels" and "motifs" but not the strong central themes that really hit me hard in Muv-Luv. But there were clear themes - Sora was a modern day analog to the statue in the Pygmalion story, and her situation was used to stress a difference between truth and reality. If one closes one's eyes, one can't see the moon. That is a reality. But the truth is the moon still exists, so as far as humans are concerned existence is rooted in faith. Sora believes she exists, the matter was getting Takeshi to go along with it. The opposite is true for Blick Winkel, who isn't even aware he exists but the belief by the characters (dramatically demonstrated in 2037) makes him realize he does.

If you recall, Sora was my favourite heroine while Tsugumi's was yours. Most people tend to favour Tsugumi as well, and I have no qualms with that because she's a pure soul, real and developed. Sora is weaker, but I was able to take a philosophical idea out of her route, so my experience with hers was an even bigger plus.

Seigi no Mikata:

Spoiler: show
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87
The Superhero Dilemma explored in FSN. You could say that FSN did a much better job with this given that it allocated three separate routes to exploring three distinct outcomes along the Superhero Dilemma Decision axis. You could also say that F/Z gets this idea entirely from FSN. The latter is certainly true, but the former I might contest. The game did a fine job with the Superhero Dilemma, but I think Fate/Zero's done a much more robust job in the form of Emiya Kiritsugu. They gave us this hardened, cold assassin who then found love and became a softie. We also learn that, going how far back who even knows, he's been wanting a world in which there is no suffering. (Basically, a world in which Old Kiritsugu is out of a job! ) His is a very compelling alternate telling of FSN's Heavens Feel path, with Sakura swapped out for Irisviel, with the Fuyuki City victims of 5th War Caster's swapped out for those of 4th War Caster's, and with Kiritsugu being HF Shirou's polar opposite, both in the sense of where they came from and in the sense of what decision they ultimately made.


FSN's is a bit different from F/Z. Emiya Shirou inherited Kiritsugu's ideal without respect to how he personally feels. One cannot distinguish between "Emiya" (the Kiritsugu ideal) and "Shirou" (the boy before being adopted), but the characters around Emiya Shirou seem to believe that a "Shirou" still exists.

Kiritsugu's ideal and philosophical outlook was a product of his past. While Shirou also lost his parents, that's all they shared in common - Shirou had a stable home and was insulated from magic. So it's a bit of a question mark why he's so devoted to Kiritsugu's ideal. Even in HF, we find he's still struggling against abandoning the ideal. Nothing in his history suggests why he would cling so strongly to it, and his mentality is clearly distinct from normal people who don't like it like Saber and Rin.

In this respect I find FSN's idea more interesting than F/Z's, because it's a lot more abstract and less believable. It makes one more interested in Shirou and why he would think like that, and the answer is brought in the form of Archer. Archer is rebelling against the ideal because 1) it's not possible to attain, and 2) it ruined his chance for happiness. His conclusion at the end of UBW is the thematic idea - self sacrifice. The ideal itself is beautiful, so it doesn't matter if it's feasible or not one's own, it's worth self sacrificing for.

My problem with this is it's not really convincing, detailed or applicable to other people within the context of the story. It seems like just a Shirou theme only. It also isn't consistent among the paths. Saber's drive to self sacrifice was because of her burden as a leader, and her failure to protect her country made her feel guilty and inadequate for the position fate bestowed upon her. Shirou can relate, but can he understand? Can Saber really understand him? It's likewise unclear (but clearer than Fate) what exactly is Shirou's deal in HF - does he love Sakura, or does he want to preserve his idea of what Sakura is? His efforts to "save" her are not in agreement with the level of interaction. And because he dies at the end of HF, one gets the impression he was satisfied giving up his life for his ideal. Except the ideal has morphed from "save everyone" to "save one".

Why People Fight:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Spoiler: show

why people fight / what people are willing to die for. Again, you could say that this is also explored in FSN, true, but I think F/Z does a better job with its superior characters. The reasons people fight include ...
  • for a better tomorrow (Kiritsugu)
  • to try and find out who they really are (Kotomine)
  • for shits and giggles (Uryuu)
  • to restore their lost honor (Lancer)
  • to try and rectify a failure in life (Saber)
  • to conquer the world (Rider)
  • to earn others' respect (Waver)
  • for another (Kariya)
So on and so forth.
I agree with you here, though I think Urobuchi's treatment is still not as fulfilling compared with other stories. But it's good enough given narrative constraints, he tries to address all characters while balancing the action. Breadth over depth, compared with Nasu who ignored certain plot-lines in each route to go for heavy examination of a choice few. The characters are risking their lives, so they should have strong motivations for involving themselves. It's easier to visualize Kiritsugu, Kariya, Saber and Lancer fighting, but tougher for the others with their seemingly superficial desires.

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The result, then, is that we have very different opinions about whether Fate/Zero deserves to be called "great" or not.
IT IS GREAT! I gave FSN a 6/10 on vndb, and I would have given F/Z in visual novel form a 9/10. It's just lacking the icing and cherry that I'd think back on years after eating the cake. I prowled for information before pages came out and read them when they did. I don't want to leave the impression that I'm just handing this story a good rating without really appreciating it.
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:19 PM   #268
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"That is amazing. Oh. my. God. .............. OH ......... MY........ GOD. " - me, just now

Was looking at unrelated art on Pixiv tonight and then decided to check out the Daily and Weekly rankings. And what do y'know, look what's ranked #5 right now in the Weekly Rankings:

http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.p...st_id=23253318

Unbelievable. That is so awesome.

Spoiler: show
Granted, I got Terminator 2: Judgment Day for my eighth birthday , so the allusion might get to me a little more than for other people, I dunno. But I think it's safe to say that if you've ever seen T2, you remember John Connor's relationship with the Terminator and you'll see just how well it fits in with Rider and Waver. It may not be the most accurate fit, but it's close enough and really quite awesome.

The guy edited his description for this image to thank everybody. In it, he also mentions that this week's episode of F/Z is going to be a big one for Rider and Waver. Really, now? Can't wait.

EDIT: More "Oh my God! "s out of me. I just went back to the image page and expanded the comments section. Oh lord. XD
Spoiler: show
デデンデンデデン♪, many of them have written. Read it out loud. "De Den Den De Den." It's the five note "theme" to T2. Here's the theme. The "de den den de den" is those five note bits you hear at the start. Any Terminator fan would immediately recognize it. Oh man.

Last edited by Talon87; 11-30-2011 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:17 AM   #269
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I watched Episode 2 and really liked it, but I wouldn't call it very substantial.

This might rub people the wrong way, but right now Caster/Uryuu are my favourite pair. Although I fancy my real-life disposition as Lawful Evil, whenever I role-play I always go in as Chaotic Evil. Uryuu and Caster fit that description, whereby Caster would kill Uryuu if not for the Command Spells if he found him a hindrance or no longer amusing. The murder scene was hilarious, though I expected Caster set up a barrier and was going to watch that kid walk into an energy field (like a bug zapper).

The only problem is they run the risk of getting boring, which might be their character weakness. "we're bloodthirsty murders!" is no substitute for an actual personality, and while Caster's removed mannerisms won't be enough to disguise the lack of depth.

Uryuu sounds like Akira Ishida. He's in everything this season, isn't he?

I'm also firmly picturing Rider as Ryuuzouji from YU-NO. Too bad, I might have liked Ryuuzouji more had the circumstances been different.

23 minutes was alleviating.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:45 AM   #270
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1.) This threads ancient
2.) I never did get around to seeing the movie
3.) Theres a new Fate anime?
4.) And a PSP game!

What should I do about all of this??
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:12 PM   #271
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In Brief:
Step 1: play the original game. Complete all three routes.
Step 2: watch the UBW movie. (Optional.)
Step 3: watch the Fate/Zero anime with us!


In Detail
You should play the original game for a number of reasons. One, it really is better than the show by quite a bit. Two, the Unlimited Blade Works movie won't make a lick of sense to you unless you've played its path in the game first. (Play it first, then the movie is like fun if speedy eye candy. Don't play it first, then the movie will be a frustratingly high-speed confusing mess. It omits quite a bit because it's pressed for time and it assumes the viewer has played the game already.) Three, there is no anime or film equivalent yet for the final path, Heaven's Feel, and that path reveals a lot about the true nature of the Grail Wars, about its history, and about the Matou family. These things will all be important for fully appreciating Fate/Zero. Search the thread for instructions on how to get and install the game, I'm pretty sure there are at least two different walkthroughs for how to do it.

The UBW movie is fun, and it's very very pretty at times, but in the end it's only fun if you've played the game first. Everyone who played the game and then saw the film walked away from it saying, "Wow. That was a little fast-paced, but wow. " Everyone who hadn't played the game, though, and who thought the film would be a substitute for them? They walked away very confused and upset.

Fate/Zero is amazing. It's one of those rare instances where the prequel is actually much, much better than the original. Basically, the way I would see it or put it to you is ... if you decide to trudge through the game, which will take around 50 to 100 hours of solid gameplay to do depending on how fast of a reader you are, you will be doing it all for the sake of then being able to fully enjoy Fate/Zero. Fate/Zero assumes complete familiarity with all three routes from the game and all the characters therein. Characters like this guy (picture) or this guy (picture) are introduced in Fate/Zero without any explanation whatsoever as to who they are because you're expected to already know who they are from having played the game. Also, details about certain characters' pasts -- particularly Kotomine Kirei's -- are revealed off-handedly in Fate/Zero and could be considered "OMG HUGE SPOILER :O" to you (or on the flipside, you might not realize how big of a deal it is and dismiss it completely ) if you haven't played the game first. These include details about his family, his past occupations, so and so forth.

As for the PSP game, there's really no need to worry yourself about any of the various off-shoot games. Fate/Stay Night was ported to the PS2 at one point (as Realta Nua), and for all I know it's been reported to the PSP too. The PSP also saw some fighters (like Fate Tiger Coliseum, or whatever it's called) and some other offshoot games. Fate/Extra and Fate/Apocrypha are side games that I'm pretty sure no one considers canon. If you want to play those, great. But no one here has and (afaik) no one here has the ability to do so. (I doubt the games are going to see a stateside release with English localization, so ...)
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:32 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
In Brief:
Step 1: play the original game. Complete all three routes.
Step 2: watch the UBW movie. (Optional.)
Step 3: watch the Fate/Zero anime with us!
Hmm basically I gotta play the game before jumping into everything else? But you said it takes like 100 hours x_x By the time I'd be done with that I would be watching this new anime alone lol. I wonder if it'd even run on my ancient PC. I'll look up those requirements and install stuffs before deciding on anything. As for the spinoffs I didn't realize there were so many! I was only refering to Fate/Extra which released in north america last month.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:32 PM   #273
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Fate/Extra apparently had a US release last month, which is probably why Lindsay brought it up. From what I've read about it, though, it's pretty silly. Not Tiger Coliseum silly, but it's not reverent toward TM canon.

F/Z updates - I'm almost caught up with the episodes. I don't really have much to say about them, though I'd forgotten some details, like why Kayneth got screwed up by Kiritsugu when he shot him.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:56 PM   #274
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Honestly, I'm surprised to hear that Fate/Extra got a US release but that Realta Nua (afaik) has not. I know which game I'd rather own! ^^;

Lindsay, you can dive into Fate/Zero along with us. I just don't think it's the best decision for your own overall satisfaction. Episode 1 was pretty epic to Yuki and I, two people who had played the game first, but to a lot of people on the internet, there were split opinions. Some said "I didn't like it because it was so confusing." Which it wouldn't have been had they played the game first. Others said "I enjoyed it because they did a good job explaining things for people who had never played the game before." This is even more hilarious because the plot for Episode 1 is taken straight out of the book and the book makes zero apologies for diving straight into things. Hell, the book was originally conceived of as a fanfic (more or less, but Type-Moon's blessing and even cooperation), so you can appreciate how it was never trying to hold the hands of people who might not be familiar with the Fate franchise. Anyway, point is, I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice to start Fate/Zero without having played the UBW and HF paths in Fate/Stay Night first. We'd be happy to spoiler-teach you all you need to know to understand Fate/Zero, but ... do you really want that?

Don't worry about not getting to watch the show with us: in just two or three weeks, this season is already over anyway, but then it's going on hiatus until April. That's right: you have until April to play the game before the show resumes. So you have plenty of time. In fact, one might even say that your timing is perfect. Play the game (e.g. play Fate in December, play UBW in January, play HF in February or March), watch all of the first twelve or thirteen episodes of Fate/Zero, and then you're caught up with us right when the first episode of the second half of the show airs in April.
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Old 12-04-2011, 05:29 PM   #275
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Just watched Episode 10 of Fate/Zero. It was good ....... but also the season's weakest so far. ^^; It was the first episode you could even be remotely accurate in calling a "filler," but not only would you be remotely accurate in calling this one a filler, you'd be dead on. When I read on UTW's page that:
"They sure did deviate from the novel a lot though; the content for this week’s episode is practically original."
I pretty much knew we were in for a filler episode adventure. And we were. That stated, it was still a good episode, and fans of Tohsaka Rin are sure to enjoy it much more than I did. The highlight for me was Kariya's brief speaking scene in the park.

Spoiler: show
Now that they've established that Rin actually participated in the 4th Holy Grail War to some extent, I wonder how they'll retroactively explain that she never really told Shirou any of this. I guess because it was none of his business, they'll say? In any event, not too big of a deal.

Not sure I care too much for the anime's implication that 6-year old Rin was already magically powerful enough and talented enough to kick Uryuu's ass. I agree that she's probably his magical senpai even at this early stage in her training given his complete lack of training; but what I find a little absurd is the implication that just by destroying the hypnotizing bracelet of his that she was able to get all of the kids out of there. Seriously? He's a veteran serial killer and he can't even grab hold of one kid? I was also surprised that Caster did not show up. Clearly he was nearby since he sent that one worm-beast after Rin at one point towards the end, but I'm surprised he didn't show himself and devour Rin.

Yay for Uncle Kariya coming to the rescue. That was pretty badass. I would have liked to have seen more. Kariya is probably my second favorite master in theory (right behind Waver) but in practice we've been fed so little of the guy that I'm starting to forget he even exists. His story is definitely the one I get the most "HRNNNNNGH! " over and I therefore really enjoyed the park scene. Wish it had been better animated though. It was kinda pathetic how they spent so much money animating Rin to make her look like she'd been lifted straight from the pages of the Kara no Kyoukai films yet when it was Kariya's turn to be animated he actually looked like the cheapest animated person we've seen in this series so far. ^^; Le sigh.

I'll try not to read into things too too much, but Aoi's line at the very end of her conversation with Kariya seems to imply that she's torn between the two men. She didn't seem so much upset with Kariya that he's threatening to kill Tokiomi as she seemed upset that Kariya was going to leave Aoi alone in this world after killing Tokiomi, i.e. that both men would die and that it was this fact which saddened her so. Makes it seem like she's torn between both. Kinda makes me wish that we could see more of Tokiomi's good side, more of the side of him that would make a woman want to pick him over Uncle Kariya.

So I guess the guy online who drew up that fanart and said "A Rider episode this week! " was fooled along with the rest of us and that we're all going to have to wait until next week to see Rider again. That stated, did you see that sneak peek? Pretty cool! Looks like the showdown between the three kings is about to begin!
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