03-11-2013, 10:22 PM | #126 |
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I'm going to try and go through and learn what you've shown us here from the very beginning. I'm looking into studying abroad in Japan, and even though they teach in English and teach beginners Japanese, I want to start learning. I'm afraid of not being able to understand how to read or write though. I know Japanese is one of the hardest languages to learn, but we all started somewhere, right? I just gotta get into the mindset of a 4 year old learning language... I think...
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03-11-2013, 11:32 PM | #127 |
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Whether you plan to self teach or whether you plan to take classes, I think the best, most foundational place to start is learning your ABCs. Learn how to write the Japanese alphabet in hiragana. Then learn how to write it in katakana. Then (and only then) tackle the most rudimentary of grammar and vocabulary. If you're considering starting tonight, I can give you some fun little things to decode below.
きりがや かずと (きりと) ゆうき あすな すぐは ソード・アート・オンライン フェイトゼロ ナルト If you can read those without assistance, then there you go. If you want more stuff to decode below ... Spoiler: show Just to be clear, most/all of these are tailor made for Deo. They may not mean anything meaningful to most beginners, but I've selected them for him as fun ways to assess his ability to read the Japanese syllabary unassisted.
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03-12-2013, 12:37 AM | #128 |
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I figured out the first one all by myself! It's Kirigaya Kazuto (Kirito)! Wow, now that I have some semblance of how the language works, this might not be as hard as I think (although I'm sure it will be once it comes to actually identifying word meanings and objects...)
I'll get to the rest tomorrow and start practicing writing it all down and memorizing the language. One question I have, and maybe you've already addressed it in this thread but I haven't seen it, but why does something like "water" (水) get it's own letter as opposed to being spelled like みず? Spoiler: show |
03-12-2013, 01:17 AM | #129 |
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Spoiler: just about every word gets what you refer to as "its own letter", a Chinese character we call kanji. What then is the Japanese syllabary used for? Amongst other things ...
I continue to explain below. It gets a bit long. Read at your own discretion. I worry it's overwhelmingly much, which is why I'm deciding to put it all in the spoiler tag. But I've decided to keep it because your inquisitive mind might find it enlightening. Spoiler: show Anyway, back to what you discovered. You said that water can be written as either 水 or as みず. This is correct. But it's not just water. It's also dog, and cat, and building, and walk, and run, and Japan, and just about everything. That doesn't mean that you're wasting your time on the alphabet though: far from it. Look at the images in this post. (Inside the spoiler box.) The Japanese alphabet is used so, so much even in the presence of Chinese characters. In fact, this is the single greatest difference between Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. Korean uses a pure alphabet. Chinese uses a pure "picturebet". And Japanese does the half-and-half, adopting the Chinese characters for all of its roots (nouns, verb stems, adjective/adverb stems) but using a Japanese-native alphabet for all the other grammar roles (verbal conjugations, adjectival/adverbial conjugations, prepositions, syntactical markers). Once again: Korean, alphabet; Chinese, pictures; Japanese, mix of pictures and alphabet. This is why it's crucial for you to know your ABCs. Because you will be using them, from here on out, on your grand Japanese adventure.
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Last edited by Talon87; 03-12-2013 at 01:20 AM. |
03-12-2013, 01:54 AM | #130 |
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Wow. Thanks for all of that. I read it all and I had to read everything in the spoiler slowly and a few times, but I understand it now, at least in your examples. I'm afraid of it being too much though, perhaps overbearing in the number of characters and combinations with kanji and the alphabet, not being able to correctly memorize it all. I guess this is why they say Japanese takes several years for anyone to understand perfectly? Also, it looks like it's going to be easier to read and write than to actually listen and identify what's being said that way.
Anyway, I'll get more into this tomorrow and try deciphering your other words, and then I'll go through the thread. I'm dead set on figuring this out and am glad you will be here to help me every step of the way. |
03-12-2013, 02:09 AM | #131 |
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It's really a lot easier than it looks. I've heard it said that there is a five-star difficulty rating for languages, that English and Mandarin are 5-star languages, and that Japanese is a 4-star language. Honestly? I feel like Japanese is a 2-star language but for volume. Volume of kanji. Volume of vocabulary. Volume of different ways to say what in English we only have one way to say. The volume is what makes it such a difficult language to gain true fluency in. But as far as the grammar goes, as far as the language making sense goes, I feel like Japanese is eerily simple. I remarked many, many times to myself and to my peers back in college that Japanese struck me as having more in common with English than French did. Lack of gender. With the exception of a very few irregular verbs, all verbs follow the same conjugation pattern (unlike French's -er verbs vs. -ir verbs vs. -re verbs) (and also unlike French's crazy conjugational changes depending on who the subject is, e.g. je suis, tu es, il est). Adjectives coming in front of the words they modify. So on and so forth.
You won't be able to learn the language in just one month unless you are a savant*; but, you can learn the language at a reasonable pace. * or unless you completely cut yourself off from English, and by this I mean you take a one-way ticket to Japan and now it's literally do or die. Survival does crazy things for learning rate.
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Last edited by Talon87; 03-12-2013 at 02:19 AM. |
03-19-2013, 06:06 PM | #132 |
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Eto...
So, I was pondering on the way home from school, and I hit a bit of a problem. How does の (as in the correspondent to the english 'of') function in regard to particles? Since the noun comes second, can you just stick wa or ga or whathaveyou after it, or are there special rules? To randomly stick words together to illustrate my question, would the phrase 「火の泡は寒ですない!」 ("As for the fiery bubbles, they're not cold!") be grammatically sound?
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Last edited by Kindrindra; 03-19-2013 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Forgot an important part of the sentence. And also a typo. ;^_^ |
03-19-2013, 06:44 PM | #133 |
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You asked a lot, so breaking it down and giving you super-brief answers ...
Q1. Are there rules with の? Yes. Q2. Can I combine の with other particles like は? Yes, but not all particles. (See A1.) Q3. 火の泡わです! FYI, that doesn't say what you then wrote afterwards in English. If it were spelled correctly, it would translate to the declarative sentence "Fire bubbles!" or "They're fire bubbles!" or similar. Q4. 泡わ There shouldn't be a わ outside of the kanji for bubble. The word is 泡. It contains both the あ and the わ of あわ. Backing up to the core part of your question (Q1), ... Spoiler: show EDIT: Regarding your new sentence, 火の泡は寒ですない!, you wouldn't say 寒ですない. Both the adjective and the copula require corrections. Let me ask you, do you have or plan to get a grammar book? Otherwise, how are you self-teaching the grammar? Wikipedia? Other public options? Show me what you're using so I can direct you to the chapters that explain these two concepts. EDIT 2: For now though, let me just offer you the specific correction: it should say 「火の泡は寒くない!」 or, if you want the です, 「火の泡は寒くないです!」
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Last edited by Talon87; 03-19-2013 at 07:23 PM. |
03-21-2013, 12:52 AM | #134 |
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Talon's Words of the Day (March 21, 2013)
Pretty sure in a past update I gave 噛む already, but just in case not ...
Non-Beginner: 噛む v.t. "to bite" reading: かむ radical components: 口 "mouth" + 歯 "tooth" Well, the reason I bring it up again is because of this similar word (well, similar to me anyway. Similar sounding, both having to do with senses explored by parts of the head) that I thought to share with you guys today: Non-Beginner: 嗅ぐ v.t. "to sniff; to smell" reading: かぐ radical components: 口 "mouth" + 臭 "odor; smell" Circling back around for the beginner word tonight then, we have ... Beginner: 匂い , 臭い n. "odor; smell" reading: におい radical components: 匂 is a Japan-invented character that combines 勹 and ヒ ; 臭 is 自 "self; auto-" on top and 大 "large" on the bottom other notes: both spellings are used very often. With 臭い, you have to be sure to distinguish it from its adjectival form, spelled the same way (臭い) but read くさい. For this reason, perhaps, 匂い tends to edge out 臭い when the reading is におい and all other things are equal. Also, 臭い tends to have a negative connotation (i.e. the odor is unpleasant or stinky) whereas 匂い is more neutral and thus covers the pleasant aromas that 臭い tends not to. But I see both kanji spellings very, very often for the noun form, so you should learn both, not just one or the other.
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04-03-2013, 09:24 PM | #135 | ||
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In a very special episode of Japanese Adventure!, I've got this excerpt of a message I'm cross-posting from Bulbagarden. You can read the original blog post here and scroll down to the fourth reply to find my unedited comment. (It's the long one. Surprise surprise. )
Quote:
I told Haruhi this, and I wanted to impart this on you guys as well: Quote:
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04-03-2013, 09:58 PM | #136 |
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As someone who has learned about 5 languages with varying degrees of rigor and formality, I can definitely say that this kind of thing applies to all languages, not just Japanese!
I've been studying Spanish for around 8 years now, and I still find myself struggling to sound native or even sometimes like I know what I'm doing. I've had some of my native speaker friends rag on me for my accent or speech patterns and even if that criticism wasn't entirely intended to be constructive, I find it's a good way to motivate yourself. (After my friend said my accent sounded white, I went out and bought a Spanish Errors book and read through the whole thing) Learning a language, as the title of this thread would suggest, is an adventure, with its ups and downs, but it will all pay off in the end. At some point, you'll find yourself in-country conversing with a native speaker, and even if it's a short exchange or a deep conversation, you'll walk away from it and feel like all the struggle was worth it. Just keep at it! |
05-05-2013, 06:10 PM | #137 | |
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The Five S's, or Sa Shi Su Se So Every culture has mnemonics, and Japanese culture is no exception. One of the most famous mnemonics is the Five S's, or Sa Shi Su Se So. But which Five S's am I talking about? Over the years, multiple Five S's mnemonics have been born out of the original. Below I'll share the two Five S's I'm familiar with, which also happen to be the two most famous from what I can tell. One has to do with properties of an ideal wife, and the other has to do with cooking. I learned the housewife one first (in college) and picked the cooking one up later (through exposure). Pretty sure the housewife one is the original, but regardless, these two are the ones in whose shadow all of the other imitators stand! The Five S's of Marriageability: さ - 裁縫 / さいほう / sewing し - 躾 / しつけ / "home discipline", but we'll say either etiquette or manners す - 炊事 / すいじ / cooking or "the culinary arts" せ - 洗濯 / せんたく / laundry そ - 掃除 / そうじ / cleaning, tidying This list of the Top 5 Most Important Traits of an Ideal Housewife definitely hearkens back to a bygone era. ^^; Some things never change, like cooking and cleaning, but I think it's safe to say that "sewing" has all but fallen off that list and that "laundry" isn't really something most people struggle with nowadays. 躾 is a bit of a loaded word which, in this context, implies hues of "upbringing" and "training (in formal etiquette)". I'm not sure if I've taught it here in the past. If not, I'll have to be sure to use it for a Word of the Day some time. The Five S's of Cooking: Quoting from a Notepad file I created years ago: (Credit to About.com ) Quote:
し - 塩 / しお / salt す - 酢 / す / vinegar せ - 醤油 / しょうゆ / soy sauce そ - 味噌 / みそ / miso They cheated a bit with this one (みそ), and one of them also no longer really works with modern readings (しょうゆ), but the list is great not only because it lists the honest-to-god five most important ingredients to have in stock in any Japanese kitchen but it also reminds cooks of all ages in what order you should add the ingredients for ideal taste.
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05-05-2013, 06:54 PM | #138 |
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A bygone era indeed, as illustrated by this palindrome:
なんてシツケいい子、いいケツしてんな。
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05-05-2013, 07:06 PM | #139 |
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Oh good lord. I've never heard that palindrome before but my if that isn't funny that it works.
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05-28-2013, 03:15 PM | #140 |
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Translation Exercises - May 28, 2013
I'd like to try something new. Below, I'll provide some sample sentences grabbed from primary sources (manga I've read, games I've played, and so on) and then offer my personal translations. Try to see how much of the sentences you can read on your own, and then check your answers with mine and see how you did. The hope is that this exercise will retain the benefits afforded by Word of the Day while also introducing some added benefits in the form of grammar forms, regular and irregular expressions, common names, and more.
Sample 1. お願いします兄さんっ……お願いしましから、ウソをつかないで、答えてくださいっ……! Spoiler: show Sample 2. 沙希は、子供の頃からカボチャが食べられないからだ。 Spoiler: show Sample 3. 子供の時、ジャックランタンを見て、あれを食べたら呪われる、と教えられたらしい。 Spoiler: show
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05-30-2013, 08:58 PM | #141 |
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I was bumming around the Internet and I found this surprisingly comprehensive kanji dictionary on an anime site. It's pretty awesome, actually! You can enter a chunk of unknown text and it will pick out all the kanji in it and roughly gloss them, or look them up by radical as normal, with a few extra criteria to help narrow your search and filter out all those pesky 20+ stroke kanji that muddy your results.
It's like Veekun but for Kanji! |
06-26-2013, 01:16 AM | #142 |
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Picked this one up while watching Downtown (Japanese comedy duo). Apparently "burnt rice" (おこげ) is slang for a gay person. No idea why. Probably makes about as much sense as why "faggot" became slang for a gay person.
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06-26-2013, 03:42 AM | #143 |
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Could "他は ですの です" be used to mean "It is what it is", or am I an idiot?
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06-26-2013, 08:18 AM | #144 |
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No, it couldn't. What you wrote doesn't make any sense. ^^; 他 means "other(s)", you can't say ですのです, and you can't establish a topic with は and end the sentence with the copula です without anything in between. Legal: 私です. Illegal: 私はです. You seem to to be trying to use ですの as that something in between, but you can't. It would be like saying in English "I am am."
If you're going for the most literal translation of "it is what it is" that they still might say, it would probably be something along the lines of それはそういうことです. A more common expression heard is これは現実です, "This is reality," which is a synonymous expression to "It is what it is" that we have in English too.
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07-15-2013, 04:23 PM | #145 |
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07-16-2013, 04:36 AM | #146 | |
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To finish a few Talon gave me months ago - now that I can actually understand them.
ゆうき あすな - Yuuki Asuna すぐは - Suguha As for the rest... Quote:
サスケ - ??? ひなた - Hinata らせんがん - Rasengan カカシ - ??? なみ - Nami ロビン - ??? しいな - Shiina ましろ - Mashiro あおやま - Aoyama ななみ - Nanami キョン - ??? ハルヒ - ??? I still need to work on the dakuten but I when I see it so far I can pretty much figure out what the word is by the time it comes along. At this point in time, though,
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07-23-2013, 09:33 AM | #147 |
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Here's some additional reading practice for beginners who are trying to test their ability to read hiragana. Names are taken from the video game-turned-anime Dangan Ronpa.
Spoiler: show Look back through this thread for further reading practice if you like. There's a lot of vocabulary provided here and I'm pretty sure that for most words I provided the readings in kana. As for new updates for this thread, sorry that there haven't been any in a while. I've been working on translating a manga, although work on that project has stalled. (For one, my QCer sort of disappeared into the aether. ^^; For a second, I've been distracted by a boatload of other projects, both old and new.) I've been guiding someone through the very beginnings of learning Japanese with some one-on-one study sessions. But I guess more than anything I've just procrastinated sharing updates here. So, since I'm already here, guess I'll go ahead and offer something new for you!
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07-23-2013, 11:48 AM | #150 |
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I'm still getting to know hiragana better. I can almost get through the DR-names without cheating! :3
And I've found Anki very helpful with learning kana. It's basically a flashcard program that really works with helping you memorize the signs (works on PC, mobile devices and tablets, I use it on my Nexus). There's decks for different levels of kanji, too, so I'm sure people reading this thread will find it useful. And if there aren't, we can just make our own decks. :3 Helpful, right?
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