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Old 10-14-2010, 06:56 PM   #26
Talon87
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I don't see why you'd be having ego problems.

A, maybe you should quit comparing Remember11 to Ever17. The quality of the narrative is the same, but the details of the story they're wanting to tell are very different. Heck, you can tell that the team anticipated and sought to address players' comparing the game with Ever17 by certain actions they undertook very early on! For example ...

HUGE Ever17 spoiler, but not even a spoiler in the slightest for Remember11
Spoiler: show
Yuni whips out a mirror in, what? Five minutes after you start playing the game? It takes all of five minutes before you get to see what Kokoro's face looks like?


I mean, this is clearly not trying to be Ever17. So you say "it all falls flat," but I think that's only because you're, as you put it yourself,
Spoiler: show
trying to put your Blick Winkel superhero cape on and fly through the sky. And, um, you kind of need to not be doing that. =\ Or you're going to wind up confused and disappointed.


B, keeping Kokoro and Yukidoh straight is fairly simple IMHO. It's easy both to keep the cabin and SPHIA straight as well as to contemplate "what is Yukidoh doing while we're not there with him?" Actually, contemplating these sorts of things is what's making this game loads of fun for me. And I'd say it's no different from how in Ever17 you might have contemplated, "I wonder where Tsugumi wandered off to? I wonder what she was up to? " while you were playing Kid x Yuu, and then you pretty much get to see the answers to those questions when you play Takeshi x Tsugumi. (Allowing, of course, for Path 5's twist on that interpretation. If you don't allow for it, then ... well, just allow for it. )

================================================== ===========

I've reached Day 4 on Kokoro's path. The game's getting even better! I think that while it's still not as good as Ever17 was at that game's peak, Remember11 is much faster-paced than Ever17 was. I feel like I've gotten as much excitement out of these four days with Kokoro and Yukito as I did from Kid x Yuu's entire path. (Or Kid x Sara's and Takeshi x Sora's combined.) I think it's mostly due to the fact that the mysteries in Remember11 feel so much closer at hand than did the vague mysteries which flitted about in Ever17. Some of Ever17's mysteries, you didn't even really THINK about (like the big spoiler I mentioned earlier in the post) until they hit you in the face. And you were like, "Whoa. Holy shit." Whereas in Remember11, you're right-off-the-bat attempting to connect dots. Like ...

(safe to click once you reach the start of Day 3)
Spoiler: show
Is SPHIA in the future or the past relative to the cabin?
Is either location in the future, past, or present relative to the airplane crash?
Which Yuni is older: SPHIA Yuni, Cabin Yuni, or neither?
Who is Utsumi?
Why is Inubushi Keiko allowed to freely walk the SPHIA grounds?
What was that mission Utsumi was talking about?
Who is Mayuzumi?
Why is Mayuzumi such a bitch?
Who was Yomogi's son?
Why was Yomogi on the plane? Why was Mayuzumi on the plane?
Where are the SPHIA staff?
What is the black-and-yellow steel security door on the SPHIA perimeter? (Note: this is not the same as the front entrance to the building which the residents are able to freely enter and exit.)
What was Yukidoh doing at SPHIA in the first place? He appears to have had a bedroom there all to himself. Was it really his in the first place -- and if so, does this mean he's a psychiatric patient? Or if not, then does this mean that there is a fifth person at SPHIA whom we haven't met yet?

And I could keep going. I didn't even get to mention the newspaper. You see, that's because there's JUST that much going on in Remember11 that you the player are acutely aware of. It's a very engaging mystery game. I feel like Ever17 had far fewer of these sorts of questions to answer.

But I told you to knock it off comparing Ever17 to Remember11, so maybe I should too.

Anyway. Start of Day 4. BBB's out of reach, and Doppel looks like he's ravenously ready to lap me. We'll see what happens. lol
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:24 PM   #27
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You misunderstand. :p I am not criticizing Remember11 at all. I am going into it "in the know" about the great secrets of Ever17.

Ever17/Remember11 spoiler -

Spoiler: show
It's like, whenever a character talks to me, I'm not thinking as Kokoro. I'm thinking as myself, alongside Kokoro, sort of like a partner privy to her inner thoughts. I've retained my own ego as 'Blick' and haven't suspended disbelief yet, partially because I'm excited, and partially because the beginning hasn't eased in the characters yet.

Here's where the comparison begins. We've got the guy, who's obviously in some kind of deep trouble, punctuated by Yuni and Kokoro's cheerful dialogue on a soon-to-be-doomed airplane. It's like a butterfly flapping its wings in Singapore while a tsunami hits Baja California - I couldn't settle into one perspective solidly. Compared to Ever17's beginning where perspectives swapped, it was more or less the same event, with the same level of energy. There wasn't this juxtaposition of pulse-pounding and tea-sipping.


Again, NOT a criticism, just my perspective. I had this same problem with Chaos;Head at first too, thinking I was some kind of big shot watching over some loser NEET like Takumi. But that sort of wore away as Takumi proved to be more and more pitifully awful a human being.

And I totally got that impression from the mirror scene! I kept thinking to myself "naw, no way" and it happened . Then I was like, "nice, Kokoro's pretty cute, it'll be nice to play as a cute 20-something girl for once. ".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87
Anyway. Start of Day 4. BBB's out of reach, and Doppel looks like he's ravenously ready to lap me. We'll see what happens. lol
Sadly, I gotta jet for class pretty soon, but I'll probably play at night to catch up. It'll be cooler too (since California is under siege from a heat spell atm). I'm not going at an incredibly fast pace, and my schedule will probably prevent me from overcoming either of you two.

BBB, you need to descend from your lofty height and bequeath knowledge onto us!
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Old 10-14-2010, 09:21 PM   #28
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BWAHAHAHAHA!

After two days of struggling with all this newfangled technology, I have successfully installed Remember11 with the translation patch! I shall catch up to you all this weekend, nyah!

(*still wrangling with FSN and Ever17*)

Question: Whenever I hover my mouse over the window, it causes the messages to progress. Is this supposed to happen? Is there any way I can turn this feature off?

Last edited by lilboocorsola; 10-14-2010 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post
Question: Whenever I hover my mouse over the window, it causes the messages to progress. Is this supposed to happen? Is there any way I can turn this feature off?
Consult the TLWiki to answer a ton of your potential questions.

TLWiki - Remember11 - Error Reports
Quote:
Changing to another running program and back causes the text to advance simply by moving the cursor onto the R11 window
Quote:
If I change to some other running program and then back, the text advances simply by moving the cursor onto the R11 window. It stops doing this after clicking in the window once, but alt+tabbing gets annoying with this. 32 bit Vista and japanese locale, if it matters.
Quote:
Yeah, it's another known issue (affects both versions) we've managed to forget of. Thanks.
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:36 PM   #30
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Well, I reached the end of Day 4 and HOLY SHIT!

Spoiler: show




Wow. Just wow.

Decent-sized Ever17 spoiler; comparison between Ever17 and Remember11
Spoiler: show
Ever17's lack of a serial killer on the loose is DEFINITELY noticeable now that I play through Remember11! Talk about an adrenaline rush! Holy shit!


Thoughts ...
  1. Mayuzumi is a heinous bitch. Not in a sexy way, either. Holy fuck. >_>
  2. Yomogi's pretty darn cool.
  3. Yuni is still creepy mysterious. Though I admit he hasn't been creepy in a while.
  4. SPHIA definitely does seem to be interesting, BBB, but I dunno: I think the cabin is pretty interesting, too!

Going to bed for the night. Gotta get up really early tomorrow. Grumble grumble. [/wants to still play]
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:55 PM   #31
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I'm back, play time~!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post
BWAHAHAHAHA!

After two days of struggling with all this newfangled technology, I have successfully installed Remember11 with the translation patch! I shall catch up to you all this weekend, nyah!

(*still wrangling with FSN and Ever17*)

Question: Whenever I hover my mouse over the window, it causes the messages to progress. Is this supposed to happen? Is there any way I can turn this feature off?
It'll be interesting to see which VN you start off on. Ever17 is primarily seen through the eyes of two male protagonists, while Remember11 is female. Given the great secret of Coco's Path, I'd be very curious in a lady's impression of it.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:09 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
It'll be interesting to see which VN you start off on. Ever17 is primarily seen through the eyes of two male protagonists, while Remember11 is female. Given the great secret of Coco's Path, I'd be very curious in a lady's impression of it.
Since Remember11 is the first and only VN I've managed to install successfully, I'll be starting with this one. Plus I'd like to keep on the same page as everyone.

I'm currently just past the prologue. Really liking the atmosphere so far. I love psychology, so I find this premise highly intriguing. DID? I wrote a paper on that that last year. And archetypes? Sweet!

Should probably go to bed soon though, bah. x.X *fiddles with saving*
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:32 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
BBB, you need to descend from your lofty height and bequeath knowledge onto us!
I put my knowledge in my spoiler boxes~ Atleast what little I have. I'm kinda afraid of saying too much.

Anyway, I'll give my opinion on one of Suigin's questions. It's something I guessed from the beginning, so it's not really a spoiler.
Spoiler: show

Q: "Why is Inubushi allowed to freely walk the SPHIA grounds"

Honestly, I believe the reason for SPHIA is to put dangerous people together in an incredibly isolated area, and let them kill each other. Then of course one left standing won't be able to maintain themselves or escape, killing that person eventually too. Either that, or it doesn't matter if they all die.

That's atleast what I came up with. I'm not sure if I'm right or not. I think Mrs. Cleo might be a killer too. It kinda bugged me that an assassination attempt came conveniently after she gave Satoru sleeping medicine.


I'm at 60% I just got back from work and I have the next two days off, so it's time to burn it in full throttle!

Also, Satoru's side in the newspaper scene was great.

EDIT: Bah! Every time Mrs. Cleo explains something, Sora instantly comes to mind.

Last edited by big bad birtha; 10-15-2010 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 10-15-2010, 12:22 AM   #34
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Dang BBB, slow down and smell the roses.

Also TALON you sly fox, I see what you did there. :P Bringing my attention to the mirror scene, only for it to roar back with a vengeance. I'd half suspected it, but I didn't think it would be the case given Kokoro's voice.
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Old 10-15-2010, 02:02 AM   #35
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God damnit. It seems one of my predictions was wrong (safe at 65% progress)
Spoiler: show
I originally guessed Mrs Cleo was the one who was the one who was trying to kill Satoru. I figured she was trying to kill him because he'd be an obstacle in killing Inuboshi. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. In one of the bad ends, she puts Satoru to sleep, then horribly murders Inuboshi, while leaving Satoru alive. It wouldn't make sense for her to try to kill him when she's unwilling to when he gets in the way of her revenge.

It seems that only leaves Inuboshi or an unknown 5th person. I didn't want it to be Inuboshi because it's too obvious. It's like saying "Lets make a mystery with an obvious killer character, and make that person the culprit of a murder!" Of course, adding a 5th unknown person is just....silly. It betrays Knox's 1st law!

There's Yuni, but he's just a scared, confused, and delicious little boy. Why would someone so delicious do something so tasteless?! I don't believe it! I won't believe it! Well, that, and he wasn't at SPHIA when someone pushed Satoru off the building.


Also, other than work, I don't really do much other than play this, so it shouldn't be a surprise about my pace. I'm terrible at shifting my focus.

Last edited by big bad birtha; 10-15-2010 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 10-15-2010, 09:29 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Dang BBB, slow down and smell the roses.

Also TALON you sly fox, I see what you did there. :P Bringing my attention to the mirror scene, only for it to roar back with a vengeance. I'd half suspected it, but I didn't think it would be the case given Kokoro's voice.
Wasn't going for that. You find out that they're doing that just by reading the minimalist plot premise on either Wiki or the TLWiki. But that's right: you refused out and out to even read these. Which means you don't even know about the newspaper yet. That'll be interesting.
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Old 10-15-2010, 11:29 AM   #37
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9% progress. I'm at the medicine choice. Should I take them or not?

I'm really enjoying the mindscrew plot. Funny how just last week I broke my friend's mind in a similar manner. I convinced her that her entire life is a lie: all her friends - including myself - are hallucinations and that her dorm is actually an institution. Maybe I should introduce her to this game. X3 (We took Psychology together, and now we're both addicted to it.)
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Old 10-15-2010, 11:38 AM   #38
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Corsola's surpassed me, I guess? I just met Mayuzumi and have to concede she is really stuck up. Yomogi is pretty cool too.

But what is happening? It's like Snow Mountain Syndrome all over again, except everything leading up to cabin fever has been forgotten.

...

Oh jeez, Yuni's going to get his neck snapped. WRONG THING TO SAY DUDE.
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Old 10-15-2010, 11:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post
9% progress. I'm at the medicine choice. Should I take them or not?

I'm really enjoying the mindscrew plot. Funny how just last week I broke my friend's mind in a similar manner. I convinced her that her entire life is a lie: all her friends - including myself - are hallucinations and that her dorm is actually an institution. Maybe I should introduce her to this game. X3 (We took Psychology together, and now we're both addicted to it.)
Spoiler. Answer to that question:
Spoiler: show
You have to take them, unfortunately. Not taking them seems to produce a Bad End no matter what choices you may have made before.


Spoiler about the details behind the two choices. Safe to read now if you're lax. Safe to read at the start of Day 4 (I think?) if you're uptight like me:
Spoiler: show
Whether you take the medicine or not, Yukidoh gets attacked in the bathroom. And in the same manner each time -- someone tries to force his head beneath the water and drown him.

Oddly enough, it's when you don't take the medicine and are therefore less drowsy that, for some reason, the killer is able to overpower you and keep your head underwater long enough to drown you. You leave Yukidoh's body right when this is about to happen, and when you return, you return to an empty body which is floating in the water.

When you do take the medicine, and are therefore more drowsy, you would think that the killer would have an easier time of overpowering you. But apparently not! Because the killer attempts to drown you and right as this happens you exit Yukidoh's body. When you return, you realize that you're obviously still alive. Yay. Yukidoh later confirms this attack on his life. So ... for some magical reason, being more drowsy helped put Yukidoh in an advantageous position. How this works, I have no idea. lol




BBB, you mentioned your theory about SPHIA. I have two problems with it. They are:
Spoiler: show
1. If they just wanted to make sure that all four people died, there would be easier ways of accomplishing this goal. Like, I dunno ... maybe KILLING THEM? Seriously: if you're just going to have them kill one another and then have the last person die of starvation or something, why go through all this trouble -- building a fake hospital in a MOUNTAIN RANGE? supplying it with ample electric power to keep it warm and toasty and well-lit? giving it a basketball court, a clock tower, a terrace, and other amenities for the patrons? -- when you could just go buy a gun and four rounds and end it in less than a minute?

2. Even if you're correct, it still doesn't explain what other people are doing there. For starters, the guy who was murdered by [we don't know who] on Night 4. For seconds, the people who supplied Utsumi with her sleeping pills -- these things don't just grow on trees! -- as well as the other patients' medicines. The people who restock the refrigerator. (Since we haven't seen anyone of the SPHIA Four do it yet, and we know they've eaten enough between Days 1 and 3 to render the fridge empty.) Who does their laundry (assuming they're long-term residents)?

Also, we know that they've been there for at least one month -- unless Utsumi was lying about this -- because Utsumi told us about the person who visits once a month to whom you can entrust letters for the outside world. She couldn't know this unless she'd seen him. So that puts her stay at a minimum time frame of 1 month. That means she has to have had 1 month's worth of food to keep her alive. And that food has to come from somewhere. The stockroom downstairs? Maybe. But still. I think that there HAVE to be other people at SPHIA, even if we haven't seen them yet.


Final comment that I need to put in a different spoiler tag because I don't want lilblue to read it under any circumstances until she's played Ever17 once or twice all the way through.
Spoiler: show
I think it may be sort of like LeMMIH and Himmel in Ever17. There's deep under the ocean ... and there's deep under the ocean!
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Old 10-15-2010, 01:15 PM   #40
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It sucks to be behind, because I can't click on most of Talon's and BBB's spoilers, but that doesn't mean it can't work the other way, right?

My idea of what's going on -

Spoiler: show
Time travel, of sorts. Kokoro is in one time, and "Satoru" is in another time. I do not think either have DID, nor does that murder girl have DID. It's body swapping/perspective swapping, triggered by sleeping. Perhaps because of the near-death incidents (Kokoro in the crash, Satoru getting kicked off the building). Different time periods would explain why the beautiful dark lady knew the names Kokoro and Yuni, while Yuni exists and in a depressed state in Satoru's universe.

I'm NOT sure if it's different dimensions yet (i.e., two alternate realities at different points in time).


AHAHAHAHA, I would have acted just like Yomogi there.

...and I've gotten to the newspaper scene.

My blood is frozen.

I'm an expert at coagulation, so I don't have DIC or anything.

I'm just really, really scared.

...

How did the newspaper get there?

Spoiler: show
Well, I think this confirms that Kokoro is indeed dead in Satoru's time, and that Satoru's time is hypothetically a future of Kokoro's. They are also perspective swapping. Not ruling out alternate realities just yet. Yuni has survived, so it's possible Satoru's time is after the cabin incident, but before the newspaper, which is dated seven months afterward and Yuni is noted to have survived.
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Old 10-15-2010, 02:29 PM   #41
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ARGH! So many typos. Losing patience.
Spoiler: show
This is NOT typical of an alpha release. This is typical of a beta release which you then ask beta testers to test out. But that's NOT how RC4 was advertised on the TLWiki. "We're done!" they declared. That sounds pretty alpha to me. Maybe I'm alone in this opinion, but that's what I took "final release" to mean. There had been three previous beta patches, and then they declared this one to be the final patch.

And whoever was in charge of QCing CO5_06.txt and CO5_07.txt needs to be scolded, fired, or both. If you look at the Error Reports page, it's a mess. Very difficult to read. Why? Because they probably didn't anticipate THIS many errors would be present. There are so many errors at this point that the sections are in need of being combined (typos and grammar together) and then being split into three new sections:
  1. newly submitted, not yet read by the staff
  2. submitted, read by the staff, but the staff don't know what to do about it yet
  3. submitted, read by the staff, a verdict has been passed down, and the script has been changed or left alone accordingly
But it's not my project, so I don't want to be the one to do it and ruffle people's feathers.

Meh. This makes me sound ungrateful again. -_-; And I'm not. I am very grateful for everyone's hard work on this project. And the game is more than playable. I just think it's frustratingly unprofessional to rush a release and to knowingly release a product that is in as unfinished a state as this one was in. And I think it's downright dishonest to label it "the final one" (or similar wording) and to act like there's no need for QCers or beta testers anymore. I basically feel like I've been downright tricked into being a beta tester. While it might have been cool to be asked to join the team, being tricked into joining it is ... yeah. Not fun times.


WAH! SUCH A GREAT GAME!
So. All that bitching aside ...

I'm really happy that the TLWiki team pulled through on this one. They could have disbanded for any number of reasons, but they didn't. And so, as a result, we get to enjoy this wonderful mystery-thriller.

I've reached the start of Day 6. It says I'm 33% of the way through. Play time is something around 10 hours. (Yikes! ) I've managed to get Kokoro killed in a number of different ways since the last time I posted. ^^;

I've also begun to formulate some new theories about what the hell's happening.

Safe once you're at Kokoro Day 6.
Spoiler: show
It could be a red herring, but the game seems to be hinting at the likelihood that Yuni's scar (which we saw in the snowy woods in "2011") is from the same injury he received at the hands of Inubushi Keiko in the storage basement of SPHIA in "2012".

In other words, whether Utsumi and/or Yukidoh are lying to us is still not 100% clear, but it seems as though the SPHIA which Kokoro has been visiting is from before her experiences in the cabin. I don't want to use possibly misleading names like "2011" or "2012", so I'll just call them Year A and Year B.

Before, we were led to believe that the cabin was Year A and that SPHIA was Year B. This made sense out of everything we'd come across except for:
  • Yuni's radio broadcasts
  • the newspaper
These two things could be explained away as being forgeries. Tricks. More easily for the radio broadcasts (which are localized to the snowy mountaintop of SPHIA) than for the newspaper. But still.

However. Even if the newspaper has to some extent been fabricated, it still wouldn't explain how they could have possibly known about the plane crash, its survivors, etc. (Not unless you allow for some crazy conspiracy theory which involved the plane being safely landed and a boarding party then coming aboard and shooting everyone but the Chosen Four, the four lucky ones who were picked in a lottery to be in the fabricated newspaper. But this is way too conspiracy theory for me. lol)

In other words, it still makes more sense for the newspaper to exist in a period which comes after the plane crash. And so ... consider this:

What if Yomogi isn't really Yomogi Seiji? What if Mayuzumi Lin isn't really Mayuzumi Lin? It sounds crazy, but think about it. What if they're actors who, for whatever reason, are trying to convince the Kokoro spirit that it's January 2011? And they've all come back to the cabin, along with an older Yuni, and--

Wait. This is starting to sound way too much like Blick Winkel. lol Okay. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree then. XD

All I know is, the scar. Yuni's scar. It exists as a scar in the cabin, and it exists as a fresh wound in SPHIA. If nothing else, this suggests that the cabin is taking place after the events at SPHIA.

Last edited by Talon87; 10-15-2010 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 10-15-2010, 02:41 PM   #42
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I am officially at this Talon post in time, but sadly have to go work.

Spoiler: show

Hmm, I should mention something. When I was in elementary school, I was a big fan of the book series Animorphs. In Animorphs #7, the all-powerful "Ellimist" appears and gives the Animorphs a vision of the future, where they would inevitably fail in their battle against the Yeerks. In the dream sequence, the Animorphs were taken to a large tower where a "Kandrona" that produced special rays that the Yeerks needed to survive in, was located. The Animorphs realized that the Kandrona in the future was also present in the past, and so they destroyed the Kandrona in the past and prevented the future they had forseen.

I think Kokoro is, or should, do the same in her world. It's painfully obvious now that Satoru is a future (again, not ruling out alternate reality) of Kokoro's world. If I were in full command of her shoes, I'd try to ask Yuni about the future events for her time, so that the past could be altered in some way.
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Old 10-15-2010, 02:56 PM   #43
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The point about the newspaper does make your theory sound plausibe, Dopple. I've yet to formulate a theory of my own yet. Instead of playing, I've been doing some reseach on all the psychological/historical/cultural references, trying to figure out how they connect together.

Random observations/speculation so far:

Spoiler: show
Having re-examined the title movie, I'm now especially curious about Mayuzumi's and Yuni's characters. If Mayuzumi represents the "Persona" archetype (mask or appearance one presents to the world), does that mean her sophisticated appearance and fiery demeanor are simply an act to hide her true personality? Could she be an image of what Kokoro wishes she could portray herself as? It'll be interesting to see if/how Mayuzumi's character will develop.

I'm also intrigued by the fact that Yuni is labeled not as the "Child" (symbol of innocence), but as the "Trickster" (clever fool; deceiver who breaks the rules of the gods or nature). The fact that Yuni seems to know far more than he's letting on, and the fact that he appears in both scenarios makes me think that he could even be the mastermind behind the conspiracy - whatever it is. Jungian archetypes are often associated with dreaming, and Kokoro believes that her visions of SPHIA are dreams... Perhaps the entire situation is a "dream-like construction" of some sort.

Also, I'm glad you brought up the song Kokoro was singing, BBB. And thanks to Talon for providing a link. So "Kagome" means the "bird inside the cage", which probably relates to the seagull speech at the beginning. Kokoro calls herself "a lonely girl locked away inside a tiny, narrow cage". Maybe her mind is the cage...? And the song suggests that someone is a backstabber... Right now, my money's on Yuni.
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Old 10-15-2010, 03:07 PM   #44
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Different writers have different opinions about ...

(safe if you're safe to be reading Doppel's posts)
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... the ability to manipulate the timeline, Doppel. I personally subscribe to the idea that any attempts to change the timeline are themselves inherently part of the timeline's canon.

For example. Suppose JFK is shot in Dallas in 1963. And you decide to go back in time and change history. My belief system says that even if you do manage to go back into the past, you will fail to thwart the assassination. In fact, you will fail to modify history as I know it. No matter what you attempt to do, those very attempts are already woven into the fabric of my timeline, my reality, and so they will exact no change on my future. That is to say, you are predetermined to not be able to change the past.

People who share my belief system have argued that this is one possible proof against the ability to travel back into the past. Because since the very act of traveling back into the past would change the course of history even at the atomic level, and since there can be no such change, then there can be no time travel into the past in the first place.

I don't know if KID's writers subscribed to this philosophy of time travel or if they instead subscribed to the Back to the Future philosophy, i.e. that the very act of traveling back into the past immediately and irrevocably places you onto a different timeline from the one you started on, and that no matter how similar the timeline you wind up on may ultimately be to the one you came from, it is not the same timeline.

But my point to you is, you shouldn't condemn Kokoro just because your philosophy says that the future is alterable. Consider the possibility that it's not alterable. Then, in that case, there are only two options:

1. She's as good as dead.
2. The newspaper is a fake.

Your argument is that the newspaper has to be real, and therefore she either:
1. dies, or
2. lives by changing the future

Both of us allow for the possibility that Kokoro will live. But we allow for it in different ways. I deconstruct the evidence, whereas you deconstruct the space-time continuum.


Doppel, just what on Earth did you link us to? O_o;

Last edited by Talon87; 10-15-2010 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 10-15-2010, 03:16 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post
The point about the newspaper does make your theory sound plausibe, Dopple. I've yet to formulate a theory of my own yet. Instead of playing, I've been doing some reseach on all the psychological/historical/cultural references, trying to figure out how they connect together.

Random observations/speculation so far:

Spoiler: show
Having re-examined the title movie, I'm now especially curious about Mayuzumi's and Yuni's characters. If Mayuzumi represents the "Persona" archetype (mask or appearance one presents to the world), does that mean her sophisticated appearance and fiery demeanor are simply an act to hide her true personality? Could she be an image of what Kokoro wishes she could portray herself as? It'll be interesting to see if/how Mayuzumi's character will develop.

I'm also intrigued by the fact that Yuni is labeled not as the "Child" (symbol of innocence), but as the "Trickster" (clever fool; deceiver who breaks the rules of the gods or nature). The fact that Yuni seems to know far more than he's letting on, and the fact that he appears in both scenarios makes me think that he could even be the mastermind behind the conspiracy - whatever it is. Jungian archetypes are often associated with dreaming, and Kokoro believes that her visions of SPHIA are dreams... Perhaps the entire situation is a "dream-like construction" of some sort.

Also, I'm glad you brought up the song Kokoro was singing, BBB. And thanks to Talon for providing a link. So "Kagome" means the "bird inside the cage", which probably relates to the seagull speech at the beginning. Kokoro calls herself "a lonely girl locked away inside a tiny, narrow cage". Maybe her mind is the cage...? And the song suggests that someone is a backstabber... Right now, my money's on Yuni.
Hah! Cool! I began to do that, too, but I quit after looking up "Anima and Animus" on Wikipedia because I felt it was going to spoil the entire plot for me. lol I decided right then and there, "We'll look up all of the Jungian stuff after we complete the story. "

My opinion of Carl Jung is a low one, I must admit. Even lower than that terrible, terrible malpracticer that is Sigmund Freud. (The crimes he committed against some of his patients are just terrible. I am appalled at the thought that a licensed physician would install false memories into his patients by way of psychotherapy. Absolutely appalled.) Because while Freud was a terrible human being, I feel as though Jung was just plain fuckin' nuts. Some of his ideas may have been in vogue in the early 20th Century, but they don't hold up worth a damn today. Ideas like the inheritance of thoughts (e.g. I remember reading in my psych text that Jung believed that humans passed on to their offspring concepts like "circle" or "red") ... I dunno, stuff like that just really put me off Jung.

But, all that stated, I really love psychology, and I'm interested to find out what all of these Jungian terms mean and how they apply to our characters. For this reason, I think I'll really be looking forward to reading your posts, lilblue!
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Old 10-15-2010, 03:24 PM   #46
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I don't subscribe to Freud's or Jung's theories either. But having learned all these psychology terms last year, it's cool to see the knowledge come in handy. Plus I particularly like the idea of "persona" and "shadow" archetypes. X3 (You'll probably understand once you read my Itsuki analysis. ^^; )

Edit- Start of Day 2. LOL at the bathroom scene! I don't even know what the "extra step" requires... (Don't tell me.)

Last edited by lilboocorsola; 10-15-2010 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 10-15-2010, 03:47 PM   #47
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The opening movie lagged horribly for me, so I haven't rewatched it proper, but remembering how Ever17 foreshadowed key points in its opening I decided against trying a second shot until I've beaten this game, for the same reasons as Talon.

Also Talon, I'm familiar with your view on time-travel (another reason I recommended Natsu no Arashi! to you - it is founded on that very philosophy):

Spoiler: show
I hadn't considered the newspaper to be fake, but man I should have. I feel sheepish now that you've brought it up, but then again I'm don't instinctively subscribe to the immutable time-line philosophy. That paper however is the biggest question on my mind - while it's apparent thoughts/conscience can be transferred through time-space through this reality, something physical like that paper - coincidentally blowing in the wind several months before it appears - is really weird. If it's true what Kokoro says and that group getting to the cabin was deliberate, that paper is most likely another orchestration of the invisible power.
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Old 10-15-2010, 04:09 PM   #48
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Kokoro Day 2 - 11% Progress

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Did you read the TIP on cloning? I'm surprised at the amount of thought and detail that was put into it. Makes me wonder if clones will indeed play an important role in the story.
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Old 10-15-2010, 04:17 PM   #49
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Well, Doppel, I considered that sort of thing, I have to admit, in large part because:

Ever17 spoilers. Pretty big.
Spoiler: show
Of what Kid and Yuubiseiharukana did in 2034.


So I mean, there was already company precedent for it. But in any event ...

Start of Day 7, reached.
Spoiler: show
CREEPY YUNI! I called this one since the beginning, but holy shit: there it is! There's that creepy evil smile from the opening movie!

And what's this? Mayuzumi is ... actually a lover? A lover we can sympathize with? Dammit! And after they'd worked so hard to convince us that she was a total heinous bitch, too! Well, I'd still say she's a heinous bitch. Way worse than Ever17's Tsugumi, who was merely "bitchy as tsunderes tend to be." Mayuzumi was no tsundere: she was pure bitch.

But I guess now we have to say she's a tsundere. And man, was she cute when she finally softened up! I look forward to seeing her interactions with Satoru in Satoru's path. I can only imagine how complicated they'd be since Mayuzumi seems convinced, even now, that Satoru isn't really inside of Kokoro's body and that Kokoro is merely play-acting.

I'm starting to think that the plane crash took place in 2011, that SPHIA is in the year 2012, and that the cabin is in the year 2013 or beyond. More and more things are starting to point to the cabin being after SPHIA in the timeline, but I don't think SPHIA could predate the plane crash.

I think the shock of the plane crash (in 2011) made Yuni go crazy. And that eventually he was sent to SPHIA in 2012. There, he either learned from Inubushi Keiko how to become a murderer. Or she rubbed off on him some other way. Or something. But anyway, I think Yuni took over from her. And now we have him 2013, doing God knows what with these three individuals who are convinced it's the year 2011.

Maybe they got frozen in time -- literally frozen, like in ice or snow or something? The newspaper said that they died in an avalanche, right? Maybe their bodies really were found in an avalanche in 2011, but they were somehow resuscitated? If so, though, then why put them through this hell? Hmm ...
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Old 10-15-2010, 04:23 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
ARGH! So many typos. Losing patience.
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This is NOT typical of an alpha release. This is typical of a beta release which you then ask beta testers to test out. But that's NOT how RC4 was advertised on the TLWiki. "We're done!" they declared. That sounds pretty alpha to me. Maybe I'm alone in this opinion, but that's what I took "final release" to mean. There had been three previous beta patches, and then they declared this one to be the final patch.

And whoever was in charge of QCing CO5_06.txt and CO5_07.txt needs to be scolded, fired, or both. If you look at the Error Reports page, it's a mess. Very difficult to read. Why? Because they probably didn't anticipate THIS many errors would be present. There are so many errors at this point that the sections are in need of being combined (typos and grammar together) and then being split into three new sections:
  1. newly submitted, not yet read by the staff
  2. submitted, read by the staff, but the staff don't know what to do about it yet
  3. submitted, read by the staff, a verdict has been passed down, and the script has been changed or left alone accordingly
But it's not my project, so I don't want to be the one to do it and ruffle people's feathers.

Spoiler: show
I'm playing the game at about the same pace as you guys, and I'm just as annoyed as you are because of the tons of errors. That post was kinda offensive (well not really, but...) But the project is in a wiki and the "team" isn't an exclusive one. That means anyone can check and contribute anytime. That's the "raison d'etre" of TLWiki. The translated scripts are there, open for everyone to edit, for about a year. I and the others never assumed it to be free of any errors, that's why an error report page was put up. The beta patches for the Kokoro route was released more than a year ago, but only a few dared to correct the errors. Don't get me wrong. I'm not shifting the blame to anyone. I'm just easing the weight of the blame (based on your post). We are not a great fan translation "team" like NNL or mirror moon or whatever, but I can't consider the guys that worked on this project as "unprofessional."


Thanks a lot for all the contributions you've made so far, but what's up with the "you were tricked to join the team" part?
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