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Old 07-09-2011, 09:46 PM   #1
Doppleganger
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Steins;Gate

Steins is a title I've been watching for the past season. It is a spin-off of Chaos;Head in a sense, set in the same universe, two years after C;H and in Akihabara instead of Shibuya. It is also very, very hyped by the Japanese audience, but Americans seem to be a lot more critical of it.

A Japanese fan even went so far as to tell me (paraphrase), "So what if Steins has a lot of plot holes? You will see why it is called "god's game" among the Japanese players, and if not that's just your opinion".

Such gall! We'll find out indeed!

The plot is part interesting, part inane. Basically, a rag-tag group of kids held up in the second floor above an appliance store create a sort of time machine out of a microwave and cell phone, but it's limited to only sending text messages into the past. However, the European Organization for Nuclear Research - CERN - actually a centuries old illuminati group bent on manipulation of history, is after the time machine for its own ends, and has targetted the group!

Steins' plot has some good ideas, but is plagued by poor execution. For example, the time travel theory featured in Steins is a sort of mix between grandfather paradox/multi-worlds, but rather than let the characters discover this through their experiments and gradually reveal the story's internal logic to the viewer, it's flat out told to the viewer early on by a revisionist John Titor (now posting on 2ch, because he is Japanese in nationality) so when we actually see the experiments carried out, there's no real surprise in the outcome and conclusions. Additionally, the story also perverts some science concepts to the point of absurdity, belying common sense. The Large Hadron Collider, for example, isn't just a particle accelerator, it's a literal black hole that can be harnessed remotely to compress and transmit information, like WinZip. -_-

Unfortunately, this was the good part. Steins' only strength is its plot, which is interesting if plagued by cliches, inconsistent logic and some questionable literary license on science concepts. The much needed human element, when existant, is almost offensive. The characters are awful. Some of the worst I've seen in any show recently - they have annoying gimmick personalities, and have little to offer beyond those personalities to endear them to the viewer. They are also incredibly stupid, not just for regular people, but the roles they play as well. These characters are simply not believeable, and one can't connect with them at all. Not even in a "put yourself in their shoes" kind of way.

For example, the main character Hououin Kyouma is intelligent enough to build the time machine prototype, but when actually experimenting he does consecutive borderline retarded things - dangerous, irresponsible things that regular people would think twice about doing, let alone a scientist/inventor with a computer hacker and Physics prodigy at his side, actually approving of it! And then, when bad stuff happens, we're supposed to feel sorry for Kyouma because he's a victim of circumstance and conspiracy outside of his control?

Where I'm at in Steins Kyouma is basically faulting himself for the creation of the time machine, completely ignoring the more obvious issue of what he did with it being the problem. "If I hadn't made the time machine, I wouldn't have been as retarded as I was!". Pleeeease.

I'm currently at the half-way point in the show, and many have said that this is where the plot picks up. It had better, the first 13 episodes were slow and painful. So, I'm sticking with it, just to see where it takes me. But I'm forecasting the characters won't become more sympathetic, given the plot focus, so that will always be the #1 fault I have with the show. Also, I expect future episodes to be non-linear, much like the first few episodes were. So it may be pretty confusing...

Bottom line? The jury's still out. Steins' biggest selling point is its plot, and the plot is 13 episodes late, so I can't really call it out yet. But the anime thus far already gets a C for dragging its feet for the first half, failing to develop unlikeable characters and being a bore. If one were going to pick it up, though, now is the time since the plot is just starting to kick into gear, and one doens't have to trudge weekly through the awful first half.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:52 PM   #2
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I think I'll wait until the final one or two episodes before picking this one up. ^^;
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:02 AM   #3
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I feel that's prudent, or maybe in about 4-5 episodes. From our experience with Remember11, I'd say that talking about this story in real-time would be an entertaining way to spend a few hours each week. Not once did I get the impression that Steins;Gate was as intelligent and researched as the KID titles, but it's got a visual novel plot, so there's some complexity there above the norm of typical anime.

Remember11, Muv-Luv Alternative and Steins are the three games I've played/seen in some form that deals with quantum ideas, and I think MLA actually handled them the best. But as a cross comparison between them -



I expect this'll improve as Steins' plot gets laid out, but I doubt the poor characters will ever turn positive.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:22 PM   #4
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So as the series wraps up, what are your thoughts? Still haven't started it. I don't see many people talking about Steins;Gate and whenever I do they don't seem too happy about it. Is this a Must See despite its negative rap? Is it an Okay series that you wouldn't quite label a waste of time? Or is it a big pile of disappointment? Are you even still watching it, Doppel? If so, let us know what you're feeling at this late hour.
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:13 PM   #5
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I'm two episodes behind, and need to catch up.

But thus far, it's a bit like a poor man's Remember11, and hinges on people inherently finding the main characters quirky/amusing. When I say hinge, I mean the door falls off the frame, flat on the floor if the audience is alienated by the cast. If the cast comes across as stupid, and/or annoying, you're in for a long ride.

Must see? No. Watchable? Yes, and it's a change of pace from almost everything else airing in the past two seasons. I haven't had this "sophistication" vibe since Higurashi or Utawarerumono aired in 2006, although I feel Steins tries to be more intelligent than either of those two but finds itself on middle ground or knee deep in quick-sand.

From what this Japanese player on AP says, the biggest reveals are still yet to come, so I'm just going to tight and wait for the alleged "Blick Winkel caliber" twists. I don't really know what's left to twist, except for explanations of those surreal, "beginning of time"/"inside the black hole" scenes we were shown early in the show.
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
But thus far, it's a bit like a poor man's Remember11, and hinges on people inherently finding the main characters quirky/amusing. When I say hinge, I mean the door falls off the frame, flat on the floor if the audience is alienated by the cast. If the cast comes across as stupid, and/or annoying, you're in for a long ride.

Must see? No. Watchable? Yes.
That's too bad. I mean, if Remember11 is a poor man's Ever17, and if Ever17 is a poor man's Muv-Luv, where does that leaves Steins;Gate? And what does this mean for the fact that Muv-Luv continues to get the anime shaft (they could at least pick the two main girls' paths and do them via OAVs!) whereas something like Steins;Gate gets animated not even two years after it comes out? It's Nitro+. If you think about it, this has been a generous year to Nitro+: Urobuchi Gen's involvement in Madoka (the sellingest anime of 2011) and Fate/Zero is already phenomenal, but then the entire team gets to have their production Steins;Gate turned into a television series. Must be nice. *eyes Katawa Shoujo team* Don't worry, guys. It'll be your turn soon enough. *confident nod*

Admittedly, we've already discussed reasons why Muv-Luv would be hard to translate from the VN scene (for which it was apparently perfectly crafted) to television, but you'd think they'd have at least tried. That somebody would have at least tried. Kyoto Animation (Kanon, Clannad) hasn't. Neither has OLM (ToHeart, Utawarerumono) or their child company White Fox (Steins;Gate). But from what little I do know about the games, I don't get the impression that Muv-Luv is as unanimatable as is Ever17. That's a game which you'd pretty much have clueless weeaboos foaming at the mouth screaming "ENDLESS EIGHT! ENDLESS EIGHT! " were you to animate it the way the gameplay is meant to be experienced and which, were you not to animate it that way in a bid to keep the clueless fans content, you'd completely screw up. The game pretty much has to be played start to finish Path 1, Path 2, Path 3, and Path 4 before you can embark upon Path 5 and see the true end of the game. Trying to combine all four paths together chronologically just wouldn't work, not only because Takeshi handles some (Tsugumi, Sora) while Kid handles the others (Yuu, Sara) but also because truly different outcomes affect the LeMU survivors depending on which path you take and you wouldn't be able to experience, for example, the Tsugumi Path True End if you were to say "No, we're just going to do 24 episodes and the canon we're going to adopt is Coco's path's good ending." And you need those other ends to really get the full experience. But is Muv-Luv plagued by the same situation?

Wow, this post quit being about Steins;Gate pretty quickly. Something something mushy green bananas something something. I'll try to get it back on track.
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:56 PM   #7
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That's too bad. I mean, if Remember11 is a poor man's Ever17, and if Ever17 is a poor man's Muv-Luv, where does that leaves Steins;Gate? And what does this mean for the fact that Muv-Luv continues to get the anime shaft (they could at least pick the two main girls' paths and do them via OAVs!) whereas something like Steins;Gate gets animated not even two years after it comes out? It's Nitro+. If you think about it, this has been a generous year to Nitro+: Urobuchi Gen's involvement in Madoka (the sellingest anime of 2011) and Fate/Zero is already phenomenal, but then the entire team gets to have their production Steins;Gate turned into a television series. Must be nice. *eyes Katawa Shoujo team* Don't worry, guys. It'll be your turn soon enough. *confident nod*
5pb, the publisher, is the primary reason Steins got an anime so fast. It's been trying to aggressively promote its products and wants to make visual novels accessible to a greater otaku audience. Steins is better than Chaos;Head's anime, but that doesn't say a whole lot, because C;H was absolutely terrible.

To clarify, Ever17 isn't a poor man's Muv-Luv. I still feel Ever17 is a masterpiece, but I get a lot of mileage out of themes, and boy oh boy did Muv-Luv hammer its themes. They're both excellent, but Muv-Luv Alternative is like the Star Wars: A New Hope of VNs. It literally plays like a movie, and has the production values to boot.

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Admittedly, we've already discussed reasons why Muv-Luv would be hard to translate from the VN scene (for which it was apparently perfectly crafted) to television, but you'd think they'd have at least tried. That somebody would have at least tried. Kyoto Animation (Kanon, Clannad) hasn't. Neither has OLM (ToHeart, Utawarerumono) or their child company White Fox (Steins;Gate). But from what little I do know about the games, I don't get the impression that Muv-Luv is as unanimatable as is Ever17. That's a game which you'd pretty much have clueless weeaboos foaming at the mouth screaming "ENDLESS EIGHT! ENDLESS EIGHT! " were you to animate it the way the gameplay is meant to be experienced and which, were you not to animate it that way in a bid to keep the clueless fans content, you'd completely screw up. The game pretty much has to be played start to finish Path 1, Path 2, Path 3, and Path 4 before you can embark upon Path 5 and see the true end of the game. Trying to combine all four paths together chronologically just wouldn't work, not only because Takeshi handles some (Tsugumi, Sora) while Kid handles the others (Yuu, Sara) but also because truly different outcomes affect the LeMU survivors depending on which path you take and you wouldn't be able to experience, for example, the Tsugumi Path True End if you were to say "No, we're just going to do 24 episodes and the canon we're going to adopt is Coco's path's good ending." And you need those other ends to really get the full experience. But is Muv-Luv plagued by the same situation?
Muv-Luv would be more difficult to animate than Ever17. I feel Sora-Tsugumi could be animated freely by itself. Sara and You would be tougher, because merging the two paths would bite Sara and Kid's character development, and it would divert attention. I could imagine a Tsugumi Path, Sara Path and You Path. How to deal with Blick Winkel is tougher, but IM@s dealt with The Producer issue, so maybe an anime studio would take that route.

ML/MLA is tougher because the routes are mutually exclusive, meaning a lot of anime needs to be devoted to telling the same story as the visual novel. The action also demands an incredible budget, so one needs to pump a lot of money into any ML project.

We'll see how Total Eclipse works. I don't have high expectations.
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:49 AM   #8
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I was quite surprised to find Episode 24 to be the final episode of Steins. Without much more material, I don't really have a choice but to review it now.

This anime is terrible.

Terrible, terrible, terrible.

It is cheesy and cliche beyond belief, and there is no consistent internal logic. So much of what happens in the story is certified organic bullshit.

Most time travel tales subscribe to two different models, the Everett Interpretation (parallel worlds) or the Grandfather Paradox, the latter of which implies that reality exists because time travel is a fixed event. In other words, the past can't be changed, traveling back in time only maintains the current future.

Suzumiya Haruhi has an alternate interpretation not grounded in scientific literature - a non-linear time-space continuum that is constantly in a state of flux. The past isn't set in stone, and neither is the future, though there is only one "official" reality, and individuals who leave it and return once it has changed become "sliders". Thus, while parallel worlds don't exist in a spatial sense, they exist in a temporal one.

Steins is a resonance form of all three - it starts off superficially similar to Haruhi's, then assimilates several contradictory ideas from the Everett Interpretation, finally calling in the Grandfather Paradox to justify events inspired by quantum mechanics.

There's no consistency to how this world works. I suppose a middle school student with no prior exposure to time travel like Back to the Future might find Steins impressive, but the overly complicated and poorly thought out logic is so bad, it bites a lot of the drama in the story.

Though most of the drama is pathetic anyway, because much of the story is build around the main character being autistic. Even real-life, normal people aren't this stupid, so the story comes across as ridiculously contrived. Because it also has a "closed door" cast typical of many mystery stories, all of the named characters are tied into the plot in some way.

All of the characters are stupid, though the main character is the worst, but there's absolutely no character development at all. How does the events of Steins change the main character? The ultimate conclusion of the pen-ultimate episode is he shouldn't change at all. And he doesn't in the finale. Ho-ly fudge.

I had more to say, but I've forgotten it. Highly disappointed, I fear for the future if Steins is hearalded as the visual novel equivalent of the Second Coming.

Final rating - Atrocious

Highlights:
  • Interesting premise
  • Inconsistent or non-existent logic
  • Poorly written characters
  • Simplistic plot and resolution
  • No character development
  • Poor pacing, direction
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:44 AM   #9
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I read a post the other day. Someone claimed that Steins;Gate was "the anime of 2011." Not Kaiji. Not Fate/Zero. Not Madoka. Steins;Gate.

I gotta say: now I'm curious to see if maybe you just really hated it for some weird Doppel-specific reasons but to the rest of the world it's at least an okay show. The problem is, you've made it very clear what your grievances with the series were: and these grievances are very big ones. Inconsistent logic? Poor pacing? Bad characters? It's hard to imagine how one could love such a show.

Yet the fact that someone did piques my curiosity once again.

Soo ... who did you watch it with? HorribleSubs DDLs? Or was there a group actively subbing this after Mazui et al dropped it when it got insta-licensed with whom you watched this program?
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:45 AM   #10
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A friend of mine is in love with Steins;Gate, and he certainly recommended it well enough to me. While Dopple's review does make me hesitant to pick it up, I'd be happy to join a second beta test crew if you're willing, Talon.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
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I read a post the other day. Someone claimed that Steins;Gate was "the anime of 2011." Not Kaiji. Not Fate/Zero. Not Madoka. Steins;Gate.

I gotta say: now I'm curious to see if maybe you just really hated it for some weird Doppel-specific reasons but to the rest of the world it's at least an okay show. The problem is, you've made it very clear what your grievances with the series were: and these grievances are very big ones. Inconsistent logic? Poor pacing? Bad characters? It's hard to imagine how one could love such a show.
The two places I discussed Steins were on AnimeSuki and Arlong Park. My rancor got me a ban warning on AnimeSuki, whereas Arlong Park was far more accepting of what I had to say. Unsurprisingly, AnimeSuki has wholeheartedly embraced Steins as anime of the year, while Arlong Park is more dismissive. AnimeSuki is likewise more hardcore and segregated according to tastes (i.e., the people who don't like Steins do not talk about it!), while Arlong Park more casual. I haven't really found someone as radical as myself critiquing it.

Then again, I also took a deliberately extreme position because Steins is the #1 VN in Japan and is supposed to be a transcendental experience like many of the VNs we've played in the past. Not only is it not of that caliber, it's not even deserving of best title in the year it came out!

5pb marketed the heck out of it because they want it to be a trend setter for VNs in the next few years (you may recall 5pb's corporate ideology was to "update Ever17 for modern audiences", and all of their 'modern audience' VNs have been otaku pandering VNs). I think of 5pb as a would-be Macintosh trying to pitch their iPod, and it enrages me because their ideas are

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Soo ... who did you watch it with? HorribleSubs DDLs? Or was there a group actively subbing this after Mazui et al dropped it when it got insta-licensed with whom you watched this program?
I watched whoever provided a torrent on TokyoTosho. CrunchyRoll should have everything by now so you can watch the whole series there with impunity. I risked the torrent because I wanted to spit in the faces of the people who would make money from such a travesty.

When you're finished be sure to read this for a chuckle. It's so typical of the people praising Steins.
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:20 PM   #12
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A friend of mine is in love with Steins;Gate, and he certainly recommended it well enough to me. While Dopple's review does make me hesitant to pick it up, I'd be happy to join a second beta test crew if you're willing, Talon.
Okay then, let's do it. I'll let you know when I start. Probably won't be any sooner than Thursday evening, but it could be sooner. No way to know 'til it happens.

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The two places I discussed Steins were on AnimeSuki and Arlong Park. My rancor got me a ban warning on AnimeSuki, whereas Arlong Park was far more accepting of what I had to say. Unsurprisingly, AnimeSuki has wholeheartedly embraced Steins as anime of the year, while Arlong Park is more dismissive. AnimeSuki is likewise more hardcore and segregated according to tastes (i.e., the people who don't like Steins do not talk about it!), while Arlong Park more casual. I haven't really found someone as radical as myself critiquing it.

Then again, I also took a deliberately extreme position because Steins is the #1 VN in Japan and is supposed to be a transcendental experience like many of the VNs we've played in the past. Not only is it not of that caliber, it's not even deserving of best title in the year it came out!
I don't know why you even bother with AnimeSuki's community. That would be like me taking my account over on AnimeNewsNetwork seriously. Sure, I post from time to time, but (a) I totally do not lurk their forums, ever, and (b) I think I still have less than 100 posts. Hell, may have less than 50 for all I know.

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Old 09-27-2011, 02:44 PM   #13
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AnimeSuki is a lot more open and tolerant than ANN, and lacks the corporate agenda that taints whatever said there. They're sort of a middle ground between ANN and 4chan - ANN is fascist about R1 spending, 4chan heralds the great age of piracy. In either place, I went to influence people, not because I appreciate their discussion. I save that for here and Arlong Park.

Depending on the topic at AS, you could find a great sub-community, or a terrible one. In Steins case, I noticed most of the viewers were aged 18-24 and had only recently graduated from training wheels - shounen anime.

These are the same people who whole-heartedly supported Steins in Japan, i.e., the people who voted Ever17 in 2002 were *NOT* the same people who voted Steins in 2010, but there were a lot more people voting Steins in 2010 because of otaku references and moe stereotypes.
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:08 PM   #14
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Okay then, let's do it. I'll let you know when I start. Probably won't be any sooner than Thursday evening, but it could be sooner. No way to know 'til it happens.
I'll be busy 'till Thursday as well, so that works.

I only lurk AnimeSuki for Haruhi updates and images (and genderbending). Followed some discussion on Ano Hana during its run, still check back occasionally for art/music.

Wasn't aware you actually had an account there, Dopple. Had trouble finding you until I thought to search "Remember11". My hunch was all but confirmed when I saw other posts by the user on Muv-Luv and Ever17. ^~
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:19 PM   #15
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Whoops! Forgot we had a thread for this! Allow me to cross-post what I originally included in this post.

Just finished Episode 1. I rather enjoyed it. Interesting premise, if somewhat difficult to follow with what seems like no fewer than two separate time jump events having occurred all in one episode.
Spoiler: show
A, the matter of the girl dying only for the past to seemingly be changed and now she's alive and well. Likewise, a satellite/UFO seems to have crashed into the building and the one dude who stole so-and-so's work ended up not giving his speech.

B, the matter of the girl (before she died) saying that the main dude had approached her and seemed to have something very important to tell her but wasn't able to get it all out.

C, the matter of the dude's hacker friend getting his text messages one week ago even though he just sent them. (May be related to A.)

It's interesting. I really like Mayushii (the girl with the white dress and summer hat). Is her voice the same as Tomo's voice in Seikon no Qwaser? That may be why I like it so much. The main guy's voice reminds me of Lelouch from Code Geass. Is it him? Too lazy to look these up right now. Going to prepare dinner and maybe watch the next episode.

EDIT-UPDATE: Just watched Episode 02. Great episode. This is why I don't want to watch sci-fi thrillers while they're still airing. The suspense in between weekly airings would just kill me! Going to go watch Episode 03 right now/soon!

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Old 10-05-2011, 12:03 AM   #16
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It has a good premise. That's one of the few things I can credit Steins with, but the direction leaves a lot more to be desired.

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It's interesting. I really like Mayushii (the girl with the white dress and summer hat). Is her voice the same as Tomo's voice in Seikon no Qwaser?
No.

Her CV does have a role in Qwaser, not that I know first-hand.

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The main guy's voice reminds me of Lelouch from Code Geass. Is it him? Too lazy to look these up right now. Going to prepare dinner and maybe watch the next episode.
Strike two.

Same CV as Light from Death Note though.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:20 AM   #17
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No.

Her CV does have a role in Qwaser, not that I know first-hand.
Hmm. Could have sworn it was her. Roles I recognize from her ANN page include Nessa (Fractale), Zange (Kannagi), and Hanazono Sakura (Kaichou wa Maid-sama). I wouldn't have been able to place her to the first two, but Sakura is 1-0-0% where I fell in love with this voice. This is why I'm getting such good vibes about Mayushii (whether I should be or not! ). It's because it's Sakura. I get it. Sample of Sakura here. She's the super-excited girl. It looks like she also provided the voice for the endearing Miyata Yuuki (MoshiDora) and Yuuki Mikan (ToLoveRu). Looks like she's quite the prominent voice actress for 2008-2011.

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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Strike two.

Same CV as Light from Death Note though.
The moment I saw that he voice Ling Yao in FMA:B, I don't why but it suddenly clicked -- and sure enough, there it was further down the page: he's the voice behind Dent (Pokémon BW: Best Wishes)! I can totally hear it now. Can't find any samples to link on Youtube (stupid ShoPro ;_; ) but yeah: that's where I've heard this voice from dozens of times in the recent past.
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:45 AM   #18
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His name's Mamoru Miyano, and behind Fukuyama he's other of the two definitive "young, adolescent, refined villain" types.

I feel his Steins performance was one of his worst. It's not a case of getting used to his performance, as I did Souichirou Hoshi in Muv-Luv (he sucked in ML) he just doesn't get the job done even considering what character he's playing (an idiot).
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:13 PM   #19
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Through Episode 05. I'm enjoying it. It's fairly stupid in some ways (discussed below), but I am not yet seeing any reason to hate it as vehemently as Doppel eventually did. Perhaps I, too, will eventually despise it; but for now, the series seems on par to me with Remember11. That is to say, it is good. A MyAnimeList score of 7/10 - "Good."

Spoiler discussion (spoils some plot events thru Episode 05)
Spoiler: show
One thing I liked is how Okabe needed to find an IBN 5100 and he ended up learning from Feyris that there was one in the Shinto shrine kept by Ruka's family. I liked this for several reasons.
  1. It was interesting / suspicious that Feyris would know about such a thing. Who is Feyris? Most girls who work at maid cafés are just regular high school or college girls trying to make some easy cash -- I guess you could think of it as a slightly less scuzzy Hooters -- and that's what I took Feyris for. But now we know that not only does she know what an IBN 5100 is, she even knows (correctly) where Okabe can find one. How? Why? Very interesting.
  2. I liked how it tied into causality time travel a bit. Most of the show thus far has been very anti-causality time travel, it seems, but I have tried looking at it from a strict causalist's lens and in doing so I have yet to notice any damning evidence which throws causality out the door. All the information does so far is to make a causal theory impossible to flesh out without more information. But this facade of "Oh yeah, it's the parallel time lines theory of time travel" stuff could be just that -- a facade -- and if it is, the IBN 5100 being in the shrine just waiting for Okabe could be the first proof of this, particularly if it was put in place there either by a time-traveling Okabe himself (to help his past self out) or by SERN [sic] in their efforts to lure Okabe, the hapless fly, into their spider web.
  3. I liked how Ruka's family has kept the computer in pristine, never-been-used condition all these years. That was pretty neat. It really drives home the Suzumiya Haruhi or Natsu no Arashi feel of "we went back in time, told somebody to hold onto something for X many years, came back to the present, went to pick it up, and there it was, good as new except for being X years aged." Because at first, when I heard that Ruka's family had an IBN 5100, I had assumed that it was an old family computer and that Okabe was going to have to ask to borrow it. Never did I imagine that it would be brand-new, cardboard box and all.

Not really a big fan of the red-head, Kurisu. Her interactions with Okabe aren't really as funny as I'm sure they're intended to be. (The Kurisu/Kurisutiina joke, the hentai jokes, the Assistant No.004 joke, etc.) She hasn't really done anything to be attractive either. Visually she's unappealing (I think it's the eyes), but I guess to be fair the only thing any of the other female characters have going for them so far is spunk (Mayuri, Suzuha) and good looks, so yeah. In fact, come to think of it, five episodes in I guess I am starting to see what Doppel was saying about these characters: they feel much less substantial than their counterparts would in any other series. As far as hackers go, Daru's pretty hollow -- he's fat, he cracks variants of "that's what she said" jokes, and he's a supposedly "good hacker" of nebulous talent. Kurisu is supposed to be a very smart scientist but we haven't really seen her do anything sciencey since Episode 2 and even that (the math stuff on the white board) is flimsy evidence for character development. I dunno. Until just now, picking apart why I don't like Kurisu , I hadn't really given it too much thought. Maybe I should quit being over-analytical if I want to keep liking these shells of characters. XP *shakes fist at Ian "Doppelganger" Malcolm*

The science in this show is very flimsy. For the first few episodes, I was amused at the whole "It's a microwave. It's a cell phone. I put them side-by-side and what do I get? The Cell Phone Microwave™! " concept; but now, five episodes in, I'm wanting some sort of explanation as to what's going on. Even if we nitpicked the science in Ever17 and Remember11, one has to give credit to KID where credit is due: they did a bang-up job doing their math, physics, immunology, computer programming, history, religion, pharmacology, and psychology research. From dissociative identity disorder and SSRIs in Remember11 to telomerase and Pygmalion in Ever17, even if the level of research they did was kind of shallow, (a) they still did it, (b) it was still authentic, and (c) you gotta respect the scope. Steins;Gate, on the other hand, only has two domains it really needs to concern itself with so far (math and physics) in order to offer an explanation as to what's going on: and so far it hasn't done that. We're just supposed to accept that a dude puts his cell phone next to his microwave and voilŕ: time-traveling bananas that come back with their molecular structure all bent out of shape. It feels about as sciencey as the "flux capacitor" in Back to the Future did. But where Back to the Future was lacking in science, it made up for it in presentation and delivery. Very fun ride, one of my favorite films of all time -- and that's even with me not agreeing with its model of time travel! Steins;Gate is no Back to the Future. I'm enjoying it, yes. I've watched five episodes in under 24 hours, yes. But it's still no Back to the Future. It needs to back up its claims, ŕ la a KID visual novel would, with some actual science. And so far, that's sorely lacking.

Even if it's childish, I have to admit that I am amused by all of the product placement in the series. Dr. Pepper made it in unaltered: which means, I guess, that they were 100% on board with free advertising from the game. IBM seems to have been less enthusiastic, forcing Nitro+ to change the name to IBN. Funny thing is, it still has the characteristic horizontal lines logo and everything. It's just an N instead of an M. Weird. IBM needs to loosen up. Also weird is that they keep saying "SERN," S-E-R-N, when it's CERN, with a C. So I guess either out of respect for the real organization or else because, lol, CERN also denied Nitro+ the right to use their image in a game, we have to settle for SERN. That stated, I get more amusement from IBN and SERN than I do from Dr. Pepper. I don't know why that is. I can see the Dr. Pepper one getting old pretty fast, but the IBN and SERN ones not so much. Maybe it's because the Dr. Pepper one feels so artificial, so forced? whereas the other two are actually part of the plot? I dunno.

The part where Suzuha freaked out at Kurisu was ... interesting, to say the least. Not sure if she's a red herring, but for now I'm going to go off of my initial hunch from the very beginning that she's not all she seems, and therefore she's very probably either (a) a CERN employee sent to spy on Okabe or else (b) a time-traveler sent to do something else in the past. Could even be (c) both. I'll be disappointed if she's a red herring and it turns out that she's just some psycho girl who thinks she's a soldier and gets into a defensive combat stance when she hears helicopters flying overhead.

What was up with her saying she'd never seen fireworks before though? Does she come from so far in the future/past that she's really never seen them? She seemed totally unaware of how much that admission stood out. She's just like, "Gotta change the subject so he doesn't realize I'm a {whatever} ... I know! I'll talk about fireworks! I've always wanted to see those!" It's like, "Dude, your freaking out over the helicopter was ten times less peculiar than your saying you've never seen fireworks before. ¬_¬"

What episode are you on, Yuki? Do you want me to slow down (if ahead)? Do you want us to go at our own paces or to try and stick together? Just let me know. I'm eager to watch more, and will probably watch Episode 06 here in a few seconds, but if you're not that far and want to have someone to watch this with, I can slow down. I would like to watch it faster than one episode a week though. Not interested in subjecting myself to the Kaiji Experiment for this series. ^^; I already did my time and paid my dues with the real broadcast of Kaiji Season 1!
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:19 PM   #20
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I just watched episode 02 earlier. ^^; Didn't think you'd carry on that far ahead.

I actually have somewhere to be at 7:00. When I get back I'll continue watching the show, and we can discuss more over chat if you want.
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:33 PM   #21
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Hey Talon, what do you know of John Titor? Did you read his stuff way back when in 2000/2001?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Spoiler: show
  1. I liked how it tied into causality time travel a bit. Most of the show thus far has been very anti-causality time travel, it seems, but I have tried looking at it from a strict causalist's lens and in doing so I have yet to notice any damning evidence which throws causality out the door. All the information does so far is to make a causal theory impossible to flesh out without more information. But this facade of "Oh yeah, it's the parallel time lines theory of time travel" stuff could be just that -- a facade -- and if it is, the IBN 5100 being in the shrine just waiting for Okabe could be the first proof of this, particularly if it was put in place there either by a time-traveling Okabe himself (to help his past self out) or by SERN [sic] in their efforts to lure Okabe, the hapless fly, into their spider web.
Did you get to the episode where Kyouma reads a 2channel blog post by John Titor, who corrects everyone on how time travel is supposed to work? I don't want to spoil it if you don't know, but Steins "logic" doesn't fit cleanly into any established time travel framework.

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Maybe I should quit being over-analytical if I want to keep liking these shells of characters. XP *shakes fist at Ian "Doppelganger" Malcolm*
Boy, do I hate being right all the time!

Kyouma is by far the biggest offender in that regard. He's supposed to be a scientist, just not in the super-genius league of Makise Kurisu or Daru. He invented the cellphone-microwave and a host of other unusual gadgets requiring more than an ounce of technical expertise. But he constantly does stupid things that undermine this credibility, and goes full autistic after "the climax".
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:11 PM   #22
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I don't know anything about John Titor and have avoided looking him up for the time being.

The episode with the 2channel @channel blog post from Titor explaining the workings of time travel to everybody was in episode ... 2 I think? 2 or 3? Yeah, I saw it a while back. I mean, if there's a more detailed explanation later, then no, I haven't seen it, but here's what I have seen:
Spoiler: show
He explains to people that time is like a bunch of parallel threads that you communicate between via fork-in-the-road decisions. So like, if you're on a thread where Kurisu is still alive, and you came from a thread where she died, two things can happen: you change nothing or you instead change history. And if you do change history, then Kurisu is now alive, and you continue down that thread ... but meanwhile, on the host thread, she still dies.

Basically, he seemed to be trying to explain the phenomenon we've seen with Okabe's memories: that only the time traveler ever has any realization that he's slid through different timelines. In other words, Titor's theory of time travel is more like "time sliding" than time travel, per se. It's definitely not causalistic where there's only ONE thread and events in the past necessarily produce all the events of the future, but it's not exactly "I can rewrite a single thread of history" either. And it's not pure sliding (in the sense that, according to Titor's theory, there are only as many Okabes in the universe as there are times Okabe opts to slide, or time travel; which is to say, there are infinitely many potential Okabes but finitely many actual Okabes at any given point in time). Seems like a hybrid of sorts.

Anyway, Okabe then asks Titor about 2000 (because that's where he remembers Titor from), and Titor is like, "Unfortunately, I've never been back to 2000."

In a later episode, Okabe brings it up again in @channel, and Titor repeats that he's never been to 2000 but, recognizing that this is probably the same Anon, says "I'm intrigued. I would like you to contact me. Here's my information." It's at this point that I'm thinking, "Okay, Titor has got to be a CERN guy. And his job is basically to scour the Interwebs for potential time travelers who would be stupid enough to let slip clues that they have in fact discovered time travel, as Okabe did with the "... but didn't you post here back in 2000?" comments, and to report them to his superiors so that they can be "dealt with."

The last thing we saw having to do with Titor was when Okabe did in fact contact him. IIRC this was after he, Daru, and Kurisu read the Jellyman Report on CERN's server and freaked out. I forget what exactly he told him about, but yeah, he's sent an e-mail to "Titor."

Glad to see you appreciate the JP reference.

Anyway, update ... halfway thru Episode 07. I can't help it. Episode 06 ended with such a character cliffhanger -- the development/further introduction of the beautiful and mysterious Kiryuu Moeka -- and I just had to see what was going to happen. So on to Episode 07 I flew. But first, thoughts on 06. Then 07.

Spoiler thoughts on Episodes 06, first eleven minutes of 07:
Spoiler: show
Really am interested in Kiryuu Moeka's character. At this juncture, I suspect that she's:
(1) a CERN employee, and
(2) the first human time traveler successfully sent back into the past and to still be alive
The reason she wants the IBN 5100 so badly, I suspect, is that she needs it to encrypt (rather than decrypt) a message she needs to send to CERN. Or something. Though this doesn't quite make sense since it begs the question -- why not just get a plane ticket for Geneva and meet up with them in person? Why wander the streets of Akihabara like a drifter? So maybe this theory is wrong. Still ... beautiful though she is, I get the feeling that she's going to prove to be a femme fatale. We'll see, though.

The conversation which led to the creation of the nickname "D-Mail" was pretty cute and funny. Kudos to the series for that. I especially loved Mayuri's enthusiastic and adorably-voiced suggestions of "BAKKU TU ZA MEERU" (Back to the Mail) and "DERORIEN MEERU" (DeLorean Mail). Did they end up picking "D-Mail" because it's the D in Mayuri's DeLorean suggestion? or because D comes before E in the alphabet and these are letters to the past? They didn't really explain how Chris Kurisu came up with the idea. Oh well.

LOL @ the part at around 9m37s when Okabe tears open the microwave door, there's EM energy going everywhere (dude, you crazy motherfucker! You're getting microwaved!), and he's just laughing maniacally. That was pretty funny.

Given what I talked about in the previous spoiler box regarding possible theories of time travel in this show, I wonder ... if Okabe is spawning a new timeline thread each and every time he uses the machine. In other words, while it appears to Okabe (and we who accompany Okabe) that the banana not only becomes a "gel-nana" but that it also becomes "reattached" to the stalk, the reality is that what has happened is:
(1) the banana, gellified as it passes through the Kerr black hole, returns to where it was moments ago; however, ...
(2) meanwhile, back in the original timeline (from whence the banana was sent), there's still no sign of the banana. Period. It's gone. No gel-nana, no gel-nana on a stalk, nothing. Also: does Okabe go missing? Or is there simply an Okabe on that end who doesn't have the same experience as our Okabe? Remains to be seen.

Regardless, I wonder if these two things are happening in tandem, and so every time Okabe uses the machine, he basically either (1) stays behind and nothing happens or else (2) slips to the newly-created timeline and sees the results of the experiment, and that we just so happen to be following the Okabe who just so happens to always, always be sliding into new timelines rather than being left behind. Or something. Kind of confusing. And very speculative. Oh well: what do you expect for theories formed halfway through Episode 7, not even one full third of the way through the series?

The part with the green Jell-O at the supermarket that reminded Okabe of the Jellymen made me think for a split second there that the show was going to go into a Soylent Green direction.

Moeka is so cute, but ... why the hell is she always communicating by texting people? That's so weird. There has to be a reason for it. She reminds me, with her soft-spoken and very short sentences, of basically a brunette, adult, well-filled-in Nagato Yuki.

How did Moeka find out where Okabe's apartment is?

Towards the end of the episode, when Okabe let it slip to Moeka that he borrowed the IBN 5100 from Ruka's family, it makes me wonder if he's gotten them into grave peril. Like, if Moeka is a SERN agent, is she going to notify SERN and then SERN is going to (1) change the past by taking the computer away from Ruka's family plus (2) "eliminate" the version of Ruka's family on this timeline thread?

What was the "FB" that Moeka texted Okabe about at the end of the episode? And he got all serious over?

Then we move into Episode 07. Moeka seems very surprised by Okabe's ability to successfully send messages from the present into the past. Probably because he seems like sucn an unreliable crazy. As much as I want to love her, I can't shake the feeling that she's bad news bears for our heroes.

Things get REALLY interesting right around where I paused, at around the 11-minute mark. Okabe hesitates before deciding to send the winning lotto numbers to the past. And after he presses the button ... we see a sight that reminds us of something we've not seen since Episode 01. In that episode, Okabe sent Daru a text about Kurisu being stabbed to death and then all of a sudden he found himself all alone, in the same spot as he'd been before except inexplicably not the same place, and then before long he was back amongst everybody, including Mayushii, but now history was changed and there was a satellite that had crashed into the radio building, Kurisu was alive, etc. Now in this episode, we see something similar. Okabe finds himself in his apartment, but it looks ... different. And besides, no one else is in there with him. But before long, he's pulled out of this "reverie" of sorts and is back in the apartment ... except (1) he's traveled back into the past (or so it seems) and consequently (2) no one has any recollection of the decision to send a winning lottery ticket combo back into the past. They were just about to decide on what to send, says Kurisu, but had not yet come up with any ideas. (And Mayushii begins to talk about her world peace and Upa cushions once more, just as she did minutes ago.) So Okabe knows something is up. And that's right where I paused.

Speculation: Okabe's been sliding all along, but sometimes he slides merely onto a new timeline while occasionally (as in Episode 01 and as here) he'll slide into the past.

Speculation: there may be a connection with the gravity of what's being sent back to the past and whether Okabe is thwarted or not. Changing history insofar as you save someone's life or pocket $7,000 were the two things which resulted in his out-of-this-world experiences where everyone had vanished and the world seemed different somehow. Everything else has been insubstantial text messages.
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
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I don't know anything about John Titor and have avoided looking him up for the time being.
WOW.

I'm stunned. I asked because I had a hunch that it might be possible you don't know him, but it's still shocking. Even when I first heard of Titor, back in 2005, he was already pretty famous on internet forums. It's really amazing you don't know. I'm tempted to make a Harry Potter comparison here, though it's not 1:1 correspondence.

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The episode with the 2channel @channel blog post from Titor explaining the workings of time travel to everybody was in episode ... 2 I think? 2 or 3? Yeah, I saw it a while back. I mean, if there's a more detailed explanation later, then no, I haven't seen it, but here's what I have seen:
Spoiler: show
He explains to people that time is like a bunch of parallel threads that you communicate between via fork-in-the-road decisions. So like, if you're on a thread where Kurisu is still alive, and you came from a thread where she died, two things can happen: you change nothing or you instead change history. And if you do change history, then Kurisu is now alive, and you continue down that thread ... but meanwhile, on the host thread, she still dies.

Basically, he seemed to be trying to explain the phenomenon we've seen with Okabe's memories: that only the time traveler ever has any realization that he's slid through different timelines. In other words, Titor's theory of time travel is more like "time sliding" than time travel, per se. It's definitely not causalistic where there's only ONE thread and events in the past necessarily produce all the events of the future, but it's not exactly "I can rewrite a single thread of history" either. And it's not pure sliding (in the sense that, according to Titor's theory, there are only as many Okabes in the universe as there are times Okabe opts to slide, or time travel; which is to say, there are infinitely many potential Okabes but finitely many actual Okabes at any given point in time). Seems like a hybrid of sorts.
To clarify, there is only one time-line. This is reinforced by what you see later in the show. Titor's language can be misconstrued pretty easily since we're so comfortable with the Everett Interpretation, but he firmly rejects all pre-existing time travel modes before explaining his hybrid system. Especially the Everett Interpretation.

Sliding is an excellent segway into Steins' thinking. It's not correct, but is closer to the truth than actual time-travel is.
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:47 PM   #24
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Is he really that famous? I take it, then, that I should keep up the not looking him up? ^^; Still haven't. Honestly, if I hadn't seen a link to his name on Wikipedia the other day at the very bottom of the Steins;Gate article (which I opened purely to grab names, don't panic , haven't seen anything there, I promise), I would have thought he was a purely fictional character. I mean, at this point, my guesses would be ...
Spoiler: show
... he's a famous hoaxster who claimed to be a time traveler.

... he's someone who works for CERN in real life.

... that's pretty much it. ^^; So if he's something else, I ain't even got a clue.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:01 PM   #25
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If you know anything of John Titor's background, it makes one of Steins' 'twists' more obvious. Though, once you catch on to what the story is trying to do everything becomes predictable. There are no Coco's Path intensity twists in this story.
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