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Old 12-18-2010, 03:47 AM   #26
Loki
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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Umm ... how did we go from free will to God to multiverses? O_o Do I need to ask Kuno to give me mod powers for just one day so I can split this thread into two?
More accurate reason is the Muyo questioning Steelie about his beliefs in the concepts of fate and free will under Christianity as opposed to it being in the Matrix. As they are two conflicting concepts, somehow Unownmew said they were connected through the theory of the multiverse.

As Christianity has absolutely no mention of the theory of the multiverse as a possible concept in their beliefs in any of their writings (mainly the Bible), I questioned how he linked it to free will, fate, and the Christian religion. He has not explained this, instead going on a tangent about how the Bible is not to teach us about God's workings.

I still am wondering how Unownmew has linked Fate, Free Will, and the Multiverse.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite View Post
What constitutes a decision in which a new universe is suddenly created? Would it not make more sense to say any variable action? In which case the random movement of electrons would cause the havoc for god / the "universe generator". If our universe is infinite then there are an infinite number of multiverses; do you actually believe there could be a universe parallel to ours with the only difference being a slight altercation in movement of a single electron trillions of lightyears from earth? As Loki said, if there are infinite multiverses, wouldn't there be a universe in which he has superpowers? wouldn't there be a universe with a being powerful enough to penetrate and destroy all parallel universes, and effectively the multiverse? If you say no then you really don't understand the meaning of the word infinity
That's certainly posible that there is a universe that is only different in a slight altercation of an electron's movement. However, for a universe to exist where he could have superpowers, it would still have to correspond with the natural Laws of Science. And I doubt Superpowers have any scientific Basis.
Although, a universe being powerful enough to penetrate all other universes, could be the universe God resides in. Being able to destroy all other Multiverses and itself however, is getting into theory we will never be able to complely understand until we are infinite beings ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I don't think this is what you meant to say, because it's temporally impossible for the Sumerians to have borrowed from the Hebrews. It's indeed possible the Sumerian myth was the original religion that was formalized by the Hebrews, but I'm not so Christo-centric that I'd believe ancient religions were influenced by a religion that came thousands of years later.
They weren't influenced by the Hebrew Religion. That DID come later. They were influenced by the Religion God gave to Adam and Eve, and then perverted it.

God made a Covenent with Abraham, Issac and Jacob (who were not a Hebrew themselves), so he established the Hebrew Religion with Moses to both bless and guide the Children of Jacob and prepare a setting for Jesus to come to Earth and establish the Chuch of God, which is the basis of the Christian Religions. After the death of the Apostles the Chuch of God became corrupt, and there was no longer a "Correct Religion" on Earth, but the advent of the Catholic Church preserved the majority of the Christian beliefs and teachings so we have what we have today.

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As an RC I'm of the opposite view, she's pure and unsullied. =3=
That's fine, you're welcome to believe that. I personally believe she had other children besides Jesus, and should not be revered as a Goddess. Honored and respected, perhaps, but not Worshipped as a central portion of the religion.

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I don't think it was deliberate, or at least it was designed to have multiple interpretations. I think if the Bible was intended to be contemporary to the events it describes, the manual of style would be merely a summary to "refresh" people's memories of the incident. Most of the details would have been first-hand or second-hand memories, not the document itself. I don't doubt that in days of old, there was a consensus on what the Bible meant, which has been lost like so much knowledge has over-time.
The Bible as we know it, was never designed at the beginning to be a "Bible". It is simply a collection of various works; records from the Hebrews, 4 different accounts of Jesus's ministry by his Apostals, as well as several letters from Paul to the various branches of the Church of God he helped established, gathered together and combined at the Council of Nicea. It has also lost much in it's various translations, from Hebrew to Latin, from Latin to Latin many time over by Monks and Scholars during the Midevil Era, and from Latin to English for the King James' Version most popular today.
At best it is incomplete and mistranslated in some areas, at worse, it has been deliberately tampered with so the true meanings in some places is changed.

Again, the Bible is one nail conneting two peices of wood together. Since it's just one nail, the two peices of wood can be easily manipulated into various configurations. These configurations are much like the various Christian Churches in the world.
However, if you were to add another nail to those peices of wood, would they still be so easily manipulated into vartion contortions?

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I can tell you that, as a Christian, I would love to speak "YHWH" as the ancient Hebrews did. Simply because, I think God would feel some happiness in being called by his proper name, in the proper pronunciation. And that would make me happy.
I can tell you that as a Christian, I'm glad most do not call God by his True name. "God" is the English Translation of his name from Hebrew, but it says we should not use his name in vain. This way fewer people will disrespect his real name, and to a lesser extent.

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Originally Posted by Loki View Post
As Christianity has absolutely no mention of the theory of the multiverse as a possible concept in their beliefs in any of their writings (mainly the Bible), I questioned how he linked it to free will, fate, and the Christian religion. He has not explained this, instead going on a tangent about how the Bible is not to teach us about God's workings.

I still am wondering how Unownmew has linked Fate, Free Will, and the Multiverse.
I said it was a possible theory, I never said it was absolute truth, nor did I say it has any root in Christian beliefs or teachings.
In fact I highly doubt God would ever reveal the truth about "How" things work in accordance to creation or why he is God. At least not until after Judgement Day, when we all become Immortal Infinite beings.

A multiverse is simply my personal belief and thoughts about the unanswered "hows", and could very well be wrong and maybe something even less understandable is the truth.
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Old 12-18-2010, 02:07 PM   #28
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Okay, please ignore how I questioned Christianity and the multiverse connection.

Please explain how the Multiverse connects Fate and Free Will into one. Because I cannot fathom how you connected them.
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Old 12-18-2010, 04:13 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Loki View Post
Okay, please ignore how I questioned Christianity and the multiverse connection.

Please explain how the Multiverse connects Fate and Free Will into one. Because I cannot fathom how you connected them.
Each "entity" in each "multiverse" has the ability to make their own choice. When the choice is made, another multiverse is created for each of the other differing choices, with the same exact history as the original, only proceeding in a different direction. This multiverse also allows the inhabitants free will, to the extent that, multiple multiverses may have people making the exact same choices in them.

Doing this, it's entirely possible to know the future, and yet still have ability to choose for yourself. It's a pretty widely accepted opinion that knowing the future does not mean that that future Will actually occur (for that particular universe). But it doesn't mean that it definitely will Not occur either.
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Old 12-18-2010, 05:10 PM   #30
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Muyo is saying that if you were given a choice of A or B but predetermined to choose A, you didn't have a choice. You were destined to choose A. Ultimately fate decided. You acted.

With the addition of the multiverse, there is a difference, but you were ultimately predestined to choose A in Universe A and chosen to choose B in Universe B. This is still fate in that the choice was made by some destiny. So if you were fated to pick something, adding the multiverse doesn't add free will to the acting body.
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Old 12-18-2010, 05:39 PM   #31
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Part of the problem, I think, is that unownmew's model predicts an infinitely larger number of universes that would actually come about. Unless we're living in a Gwyneth Paltrow movie, the decisions we make don't spawn infinitely many us'es. Rather, we each have infinitely many choices to make at any given crossroads but we end up choosing one and only one.

The only way that unownmew could still have multiverses (without invoking Gwyneth Paltrow physics) is if the multiverses were all created independently of one another and at some original point in time; and if from there each of the universe's oh-so-slightly unique stories played out. So, for example, in universe 10000000A there was a power outage and Talon decided to grab some blankets but in universe 10000000B there was that same power outage but Talon decided to go start his car and sit in it with the heat on high. That way, there could still be different Talons.

But if we paint this model, then we come right back to Loki's criticism: that there isn't really any free will at all (necessarily), or rather that this model does no better job at proving or disproving free will than does the single universe model. Because even if the various universes unfold differently from one another, their puppets inside -- us, human beings made of sinew and bone -- are still subject to the same domino effects we're subject to in all the other universes. We either scratch or don't scratch, stand up or stay seated, go to sleep or stay awake depending upon a host of factors which, like dominoes, cascade to produce a given outcome beyond our control.

In other words, the multiverse theory doesn't disprove the possibility that our brains operate purely based on the chemical version of the dominoes falling into one another and that what we think is free will, free thought, etc is actually predetermined by the falling dominoes which have been falling, beyond our control, since the dawn of time.

Yes, sometimes a domino might fall one way with 78% likelihood and some other times it might fall a different way with 22% lifelihood. Yes, that may explain why two different universes occur, one where Talon shaves and one where he stays seated and doesn't shave. But in neither universe could we say that free will occurred. We could just say that the universes were different outcomes of the same chain of dominoes cascading.
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