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Old 02-09-2015, 04:42 PM   #26
Concept
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People are free to discuss stuff wherever they like, whether that be threads or skype or irl or via an elaborate system of code cunningly concealed in what order they hang their washing to dry. However, anyone discussing stuff on skype/telephone/etc rather than the relevant thread and then turning around and complaining the thread is dying is a complete idiot and their opinion can safely be disregarded. If you have some medium used to discuss a topic and then you don't discuss the topic there, that medium will die. It's called cause and effect. If anyone finds that notion confusing I kindly refer them back to the second grade.

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I actually remember suggesting once, while Bravely Default discussion in the Skype chat was dominating, that maybe they should start a forum topic to discuss it, since it was being talked about all the time... and they did, but it was rarely ever used, and the Skype talk continued. It was just easier to go to Skype first to talk about the game, and about specific little instances that happened within it that people really didn't feel deserved a whole post. There's no spoiler tags, though, which can be a huge downside. That's where I feel that the forums do have an advantage. Skype needs to get on that.
Oh man, Bravely Default chat totally dominated Skype chat for ages. My UPN Skype chat is still called "Let's Play Bravely Default".
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Old 02-11-2015, 03:42 AM   #27
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I'm just going to come out and say it: the anime forum's attitude towards casual anime watchers and “popular” shows, from what I've seen in my few ventures into that section of the thread, is condescending. Granted, the people on the forum do acknowledge that people have different interests and tastes... to a point. However, there's this unspoken bias against shows that the forum dislikes because they appeal to an “inexperienced” crowd, according to them. I mean, I'm sure the anime forum regulars have watched way more anime than I have, so maybe there's something I'm missing, here. Even so, that attitude drove me away. It's okay to have differing opinions, and it's all right to dislike what others enjoy... but sometimes, I feel like the Anime Forum (and this isn't one person, or even the imagined group of “outcasts”, but a forum-wide issue) is a bit too vocal with their dislike at times, to the point where those who enjoy said anime feel like they aren't welcome. I almost feel like suggesting that if you don't like it, you're better off going to a different thread and discussing what you do like. That's my personal take, though.
Don't tell me that people can't handle a bit of banter when it comes to Naruto, Bleach, and Attack on Titan. Really though, there's a large and active thread dedicated to the Pokemon anime, how hateful toward casuals can we possibly be? Sword Art Online also has a really big thread. Granted, lots of people in there making fun of it, but if anyone disagrees they're welcome to present their case.

Also not clear on the definition of "popular anime". Would this also include things that aren't super mainstream, but are nevertheless very well known among anime enthusiasts, like Steins;Gate? Right now there's a debate going on regarding the quality of that show, and various members gave it a diverse set of ratings, ranging from "atrocious" all the way up to 9/10.
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Old 02-11-2015, 01:06 PM   #28
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Lol there are a lot of posts and I can't read through them all right now, but here are some general thoughts after reading the OP and attempting to comprehend what people have to say.

As someone quite used to being on the outside of people's thoughts, I am personally more for the use of the forums for discussion. I rarely use Skype, but I'm sure I would if people would include me, but the facts are:
1. Not everyone on UPN actually has a Skype account
2. Not everyone who does have a Skype account on UPN can be part of these discussions, or is invited to be.

And fundamentally, that's what a forum is: a place where everyone can interact and be part of the discussion on certain matters. I think that a major part of the lack of actual discussion on the forum, namely in the anime or entertainment sections, is that your posts are so systematic and thoughtful that people (or just me) may feel a little intimidated by that, Talon, or they may feel like their posts couldn't possibly be of the same quality, and so they refrain from trying. I don't know too much about what happens on Skype, but that's the gist of it in my mind. Sorry if I've repeated what someone else has already said, I kind of skimmed.
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Old 02-11-2015, 04:29 PM   #29
Marion Ette
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Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
Don't tell me that people can't handle a bit of banter when it comes to Naruto, Bleach, and Attack on Titan. Really though, there's a large and active thread dedicated to the Pokemon anime, how hateful toward casuals can we possibly be? Sword Art Online also has a really big thread. Granted, lots of people in there making fun of it, but if anyone disagrees they're welcome to present their case.

Also not clear on the definition of "popular anime". Would this also include things that aren't super mainstream, but are nevertheless very well known among anime enthusiasts, like Steins;Gate? Right now there's a debate going on regarding the quality of that show, and various members gave it a diverse set of ratings, ranging from "atrocious" all the way up to 9/10.
There's a difference between "a bit of banter" and the implications that have been made about the people who like Naruto/Bleach/Attack on Titan, at least from what I've observed. (For clarification, these three embody what I mean by "popular anime" - basically, mainstream, but particularly mainstream shounen.) When I decided to post in the anime forum, it was when the Attack on Titan thread was popular. Attack on Titan itself didn’t keep my interest enough to keep going after Episode 20 or so, but while I was there, and looking around the suggestion thread, I saw some things that didn’t sit well with me. Won’t name names, but let's just say that I've seen how someone who had those exact titles (Naruto/Bleach/AoT) on his "watched anime" list was treated. A regular, upon seeing that list, called it “funny”, like what you'd see in the "I'm Going to Hell" thread. So, what’s so funny about it? Please explain to me how that kind of statement is anything other than condescending, or how anyone with those tastes would feel welcome after that. I also saw a different person being judged by the number of anime on their myanimelist page, with the strong implication that said judgment was made BECAUSE they gave a positive opinion of Attack on Titan. Not that it’s necessarily wrong or unethical, mind you; if I walked into an art critic forum and started mouthing off about how I don’t see the big deal about the Mona Lisa, I’m sure my lack of experience in art would factor in when they asked me why I would feel that way, but… In that way, the anime forum is more like an art critic’s forum than a place where all people can feel comfortable voicing their opinion regardless of experience, and it's alienating to those who are newer to anime who would like to provide their insights. Maybe it’s not like that in other threads, and maybe the disagreements on shows like Stein’s Gate are on more equal footing. I’m interested in watching Stein's Gate after finishing Naoki Urasawa's Monster (which I need to start over since it's been a long time since I watched it and I've forgotten quite a bit XP), so I’m kind of avoiding reading the thread because of spoilers. Once I watch Stein's Gate, I can take a good look, and re-evaluate from there.

Now, I haven’t been in the SA:O thread before, but I took a look (because I don't intend to watch it), and it was quite interesting. I noticed that Pearl’s Perap, Takeo and Unownmew weighed in with positive opinions of the show… and the common thread among all of them was that their posts were ignored. Granted, I can kind of see why Unownmew was ignored (particularly when he quipped that people were overthinking it too much and that’s why they weren’t enjoying it) but… Maybe he had a point, there. Maybe this is a show that doesn’t stand up well to critical analysis, and should be enjoyed at face value. But no one even bothered to engage him, or anyone else with a positive opinion, in discussion. So, why would I come in with MY positive opinion, if I had one? Seems to me like it would just be ignored, like everyone else’s was. Sure, SA:O brings forth evidence of a less extreme treatment of people with opinions which dissent from the anime forum’s regulars, but still… not one that inspires me to post there.

You can certainly argue that I'm being unfair, or that most of the anime forum isn't like that, or whatever. That's probably a fair point, and I acknowledge that. Just be aware... If a person's first real introduction to the Anime Forum was Attack on Titan, like mine was, those were the experiences they probably came away with.


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Originally Posted by RealMrGame10 View Post
As someone quite used to being on the outside of people's thoughts, I am personally more for the use of the forums for discussion. I rarely use Skype, but I'm sure I would if people would include me, but the facts are:
1. Not everyone on UPN actually has a Skype account
2. Not everyone who does have a Skype account on UPN can be part of these discussions, or is invited to be.
#1 is true, but #2 shouldn’t be. Everyone is welcome to join, but I can see how it would be awkward to ask one of the members for an invite. The thing is, no one should feel that they have to wait to be invited. If you want to join the Skype Chat, feel free to ask somebody (I don’t have access to it right now – on a hiatus, as I said). You’re a member of UPN, so I’m sure anyone involved would be happy to get you in. That goes for ANYBODY who is a member of UPN, and if there is exclusion going on from the UPN chat, then that isn’t right and should be addressed immediately.
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Old 02-11-2015, 05:20 PM   #30
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At the end of the day, though, if people are sequestering themselves to Skype because of negative perceptions about the Anime forum, then you can't really argue that everyone's forever welcome in a Skype chat. Like, if people made a Skype chat to avoid me in particular, we're sticking our heads in the sand to pretend that I can always and forever expect to be let in when asked to be let in to a Skype chat. There comes a point where I will be denied entry. So we may as well discuss that point here, at the level of the first Skype chat that breaks off from UPN because {REASONS}, than discuss it further down the line, at the level of the seventh of eighth split-off.

**************

The replies to this thread so far are already validating my theory as of 2015: that while personal dislike of myself or other regulars may explain some users' abstention from the Anime forum, it doesn't explain all and perhaps not even most. It looks like reasons vary from person to person. It's satisfying (in the one sense; to know that you're not causing 99% of abstainers to abstain) but frustrating (in the other sense; to see a beloved forum so very inactive and not know how to fix it in a simple way that'd fix it for 99% of abstainers).

**************

The PP + Takeo + unownmew example is an atypical one. Most "non-regulars" are enthusiastically embraced by all "regulars." But only PP would've been for me. unownmew was not a newcomer at that time and my silent treatment towards him was not an accident. ("Don't feed the troll!") Takeo I can't believe was even around for SAO but given that SAO was a Fall+Winter series it's probably the case that by autumn I had already formed my negative impressions about him based on how he (imo) took avaricious advantage of the generosity of others. So that leaves us with only PP, who I would've liked and welcomed. Can't answer you there why he'd be ignored by me other than the old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" possibly steering me there. I dunno. Would have to revisit the thread and see specifics.

*************

There's definitely an art critic culture promulgated by several of the regular posters in Anime, myself included. Critical thinking coupled with experience tends to lead to that, I think, in many hobbyist circles. While I can see newcomers feeling alienated by that, I don't see why they should feel alienated from or by the entire forum. When you see the big scary lion watching and adoring the show you also love, isn't that invitation enough to go and get your toes wet?

And that's the thing: we've seen this very phenomenon happen with several programs and members. Picking on Kamen, we've got Kantai Collection. Picking on Lanturn and FI, we had Nagi no Asukara. (Though I think that was a safer net than KanColle.) FI's a particularly good pick since he arguably got burned by our response to Attack on Titan despite his initial enthusiasm for it. "Once bitten, twice shy" could've easily applied but he was brave and gave it another go with Nagi no Asukara.

Ugh I shouldn't have written this by cell phone where it's impractical to quote people. Apologies. Will end post here so further things I wanted to reply to can at least benefit from quotations making it clear who I'm responding to.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:29 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Marion Ette View Post
There's a difference between "a bit of banter" and the implications that have been made about the people who like Naruto/Bleach/Attack on Titan, at least from what I've observed. (For clarification, these three embody what I mean by "popular anime" - basically, mainstream, but particularly mainstream shounen.) When I decided to post in the anime forum, it was when the Attack on Titan thread was popular. Attack on Titan itself didn’t keep my interest enough to keep going after Episode 20 or so, but while I was there, and looking around the suggestion thread, I saw some things that didn’t sit well with me. Won’t name names, but let's just say that I've seen how someone who had those exact titles (Naruto/Bleach/AoT) on his "watched anime" list was treated. A regular, upon seeing that list, called it “funny”, like what you'd see in the "I'm Going to Hell" thread. So, what’s so funny about it? Please explain to me how that kind of statement is anything other than condescending, or how anyone with those tastes would feel welcome after that. I also saw a different person being judged by the number of anime on their myanimelist page, with the strong implication that said judgment was made BECAUSE they gave a positive opinion of Attack on Titan.
That was just a humourous observation that he had seen three of THE most prototypical entry level animes, I can assure you that he meant no ill will. It's unfortunate that you interpreted it as condescending, but I don't see it that way. Multiple members heartily responded to his request for recommendations, meaning that we have recognized that he's only see entry level anime thus far, and is now ready for more advanced stuff. If he went to 4chan or some place like that, confessed to only watching those three shows and asked for recommendations, THAT is where he'd be insulted and told to screw off. We don't do that, we want to introduce you to higher level stuff because we love you and want you to be entertained. It's not, "You like Attack on Titan, you're a moron." It's, "If you liked Attack on Titan, then you should check out this other, lesser known anime that has similar themes but is way better." Speaking for myself, whenever somebody decides to watch an anime or read a manga based off of my recommendation, I really appreciate it because I'm interested in hearing their opinion on this thing that I hold in high regard, and discussing it with them. I'm sure that many other members feel the same way. That's why I was frickin delighted to see a new face in the forum who had only seen beginner level stuff; most of the regulars have already seen and discussed the shows that we have recommended to each other over the years, so the addition of a newcomer opens up the possibility for new opinions and discussion on them.

I don't know what else to say other than one last plea for people not to be scared to post in the anime forum because of perceived elitism. If this vibe exists then it's only because we care about seeking out the very best that anime has to offer, and to make sure that people know about these shows.
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Old 02-12-2015, 06:56 AM   #32
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Yeah I know when people are talking about me and it wasn't that I was offended by what Doppel said that I haven't gone back, it's that I need to actually use my CR pass still, and I still have to figure out where to find FSN '06.

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Old 02-14-2015, 09:21 PM   #33
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*still has never been in any UPN skype chat or asked to participate (outside of LoL stuff)*

Not that I have ever had any value to add to that nor would I necessarily attempt to as I don't particularly like having Skype open. It does however leave you feeling a bit left out, you know? I don't feel that much in regards to it but from time to time I do feel as though my value as a part of this community isn't really one that would necessarily be missed if I were to leave one day. Perhaps I'm completely wrong, but I suppose there are definite times in which I do feel "outcast" (big quotation marks), or perhaps that the contributions and opinions I do make are ones that not many quite frankly care about. I guess overall that feeling hasn't been something that really bothered me that much since I have been less active over time, though I suppose there could be a definite correlation between these two things (as well as many other things that have interfered with my daily life in recent times).

Sorta wish the Steam group actually was active, would have been nice to play games and use the Steam chat from time to time, but eh.
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