Curry Cooking

[Emp]

Natures existed back when the old PokeSpa was around, as I remember you couldn't feed certain Pokemon certain Pokeblocks. I'm guessing they faded out of relevance though.

Here's the article I was going off for Berry rarity (if you scroll a bit down).

[lilboocorsola]

I hadn't realized there were people who didn't declare Natures at all, but I suppose it makes sense if they're not really relevant anymore. I mostly suggested that angle first so as not to have to deal with altering percentages. OTL

Looking at the list, maybe we could so something like a tier-system similar to the original proposal, where adding up the rarity points of similarly flavored Berries yields better results (again assuming max of five total can be mixed at a time):

1-4 = +1 Bond
5-9 = +2 Bond
10-14 = +3 Bond
15-19 = +4 Bond
>20 = +5 Bond

Then for Level gains, maybe it's just dependent on the number of same-Type Berries added? Idk, my maths is not good so again if anyone has a better idea for fair distribution please let me know. ^^;

[Sandaa]

In order to help move this discussion along, I put some thought into how I think the curry system could be developed. Let me know what you all think.

Getting Started: A person must participate with at least 1 Berry to offer as an ingredient as well as bring 1 Pokemon to assist with the cooking. You may contribute more than 1 Berry to the pot, but once the pot reaches 10 Berries (or some kind of time limit has passed) the cooking will begin. This means a maximum of 10 people may participate in a single cooking at a time. I think as a level of organization and balance, only 1 curry cooking may go on at a single time, and you may only participate in 1 curry cooking per month.

Based on the quality of the cooking, everyone who participates will be rewarded with a corresponding result. I think the best way to score the curry is to break it down into 4 components:

1. Flavor

● Determined by the quality of berries used as ingredients, a cumulative value for each flavor type using the Gen. 4-8 flavor values.
● The quality of the curry lies in whether there is a dominant flavor, so as a result of competing flavors, the quality will in turn drop.
● If the dominant flavor has a cumulative value of at least 50 higher than the second highest flavor, the curry’s flavor will be Top Rating. If the difference between the dominant flavor and the second highest flavor is 25 or higher, it will be a Good Rating. If the difference between the highest and second highest flavor is less than 25, it will be a Poor Rating.

2. Temperature

● Determined by the quality of temperature in which the curry is cooked, a curry that is too hot will burn while one that is too cold won’t be cooked.
● ‘Fan the Flames’ portion of cooking, the temperature level must fall within a specific value range, exceeding that range positively or negatively will result in lowering the quality of the curry’s temperature rating.
● Fire or Wind-based attacks for example might raise the temperature while Ice attacks might lower it. Attacks that are too strong might do more harm than good.

3. Texture

● Determined by the quality of texture in which the curry is mixed, a curry that is too slowly will burn while one that is mixed too quickly will spill.
● ‘Give It a Good Stirring’ portion of cooking, the texture level must fall within a specific value range, exceeding that range positively or negatively will result in lowering the quality of the curry’s texture rating.
● Like Temperature, there could be an acceptable range of mixing speed to achieve Top Rating while falling outside of that range could negatively affect the rating.

4. Passion

● Determined by the amount of love that went into cooking the curry.
● ‘Put Your Heart Into It’ portion of cooking, the more affection that you give the cooking, the higher the rating will be.
● No upward boundary on how much affection you can give it. Not enough affection will result in a lower rating, however.

Rating the Curry & tiers of rewards:

Based on the cumulative ratings of Flavor, Temperature, Texture, and Passion, the curry will be graded. I haven’t put too much thought in the overall numbers behind the ratings, but I think it would be best if each individual component was scored out of 25 points, coming to a maximum of 100 points total. Based off of that score, the curry could then be graded into the individual classes (Koffing, Wobbuffet, Milcery, Copperajah, and Charizard Classes)

I think the prizes could go something as follows: Maximum Rating would yield all 3 of the following: +3 levels, +1 Natural MT or EM, and +5 Bond. As the rating drops, maybe then you would have to pick only 1 or 2 of the aforementioned rewards. As such, I think it might be better if there are only 3 tiers of class ratings- maybe cut out the Koffing and Wobbuffet Classes. (Sorry MM)

Potential Concerns/Things that Might Need to be Discussed:

● Berry exploitation: I think we might need to raise the price of berries in the department store, specifically the Stat-Altering Berries (currently priced $50). These berries can yield the greatest value of flavor increments, and I think it would probably be fairest if they were raised to like $250 or else there could be a potential loophole for exploitation.
● Pokemon Movepools (or lack thereof): If a participating Pokemon isn’t suited to a particular action (for example, an Exeggcute might not have any attacks to Fan the Flames) you the trainer may step in to perform the action on your Pokemon’s behalf, though the value behind that action might be lower than if a Pokemon were performing it.

Some Examples of Pokemon Actions:

● Temperature: Low BP attacks like Gust or Ember might be good if used in conjunction with other trainers. Maybe using something like Hurricane or Fire Blast would be a terrible idea lol. If you think there might be too much heat, maybe you could lower the temperature with an Icy Wind or something.
● Texture: like temperature, it’ll be best to use attacks in moderation. Stuff like Whirlpool, Topsy-Turvy, Teeter Dance might be suited for setting the base while assisting with attacks like Flame Charge, Agility, Tailwind, or Helping Hand might help speed it up. Attacks that lower speed or make Pokemon drowsy might help in correcting the texture if it goes too fast.
● Passion: Just use whatever you think contributes the most affection and encouragement into the cooking. Stuff like Charm, Attract, Helping Hand, Work Up would work well here. Other stat-boosting attacks might help too but to a lesser degree.

I think that’s all I got for now, let me know what you all think. There would still have to be a lot more input, especially with specific scoring values. While I still have concerns about this turning into yet another shop to mark off the checklist in order to maximize your gains in FB, I think setting restrictions on the amount of berries being used and number of times you can attempt it per year, I think it can serve as a fun distraction that requires a lot of coordination and teamwork in order to succeed.

[Pearl's Perap]

Originally Posted by Sandaa

Getting Started: A person must participate with at least 1 Berry to offer as an ingredient as well as bring 1 Pokemon to assist with the cooking. You may contribute more than 1 Berry to the pot, but once the pot reaches 10 Berries (or some kind of time limit has passed) the cooking will begin. This means a maximum of 10 people may participate in a single cooking at a time. I think as a level of organization and balance, only 1 curry cooking may go on at a single time, and you may only participate in 1 curry cooking per month.

I think the idea of 10 people or after a pre-decided point in time from the sign-up sounds like a good idea - I think this combined with a one-curry a month limit would ensure that everybody interested would get a chance to get stuck in each calendar month.

Originally Posted by Sandaa

I think the best way to score the curry is to break it down into 4 components:

1. Flavor

● Determined by the quality of berries used as ingredients, a cumulative value for each flavor type using the Gen. 4-8 flavor values.
● The quality of the curry lies in whether there is a dominant flavor, so as a result of competing flavors, the quality will in turn drop.
● If the dominant flavor has a cumulative value of at least 50 higher than the second highest flavor, the curry’s flavor will be Top Rating. If the difference between the dominant flavor and the second highest flavor is 25 or higher, it will be a Good Rating. If the difference between the highest and second highest flavor is less than 25, it will be a Poor Rating.

2. Temperature

● Determined by the quality of temperature in which the curry is cooked, a curry that is too hot will burn while one that is too cold won’t be cooked.
● ‘Fan the Flames’ portion of cooking, the temperature level must fall within a specific value range, exceeding that range positively or negatively will result in lowering the quality of the curry’s temperature rating.
● Fire or Wind-based attacks for example might raise the temperature while Ice attacks might lower it. Attacks that are too strong might do more harm than good.

3. Texture

● Determined by the quality of texture in which the curry is mixed, a curry that is too slowly will burn while one that is mixed too quickly will spill.
● ‘Give It a Good Stirring’ portion of cooking, the texture level must fall within a specific value range, exceeding that range positively or negatively will result in lowering the quality of the curry’s texture rating.
● Like Temperature, there could be an acceptable range of mixing speed to achieve Top Rating while falling outside of that range could negatively affect the rating.

4. Passion

● Determined by the amount of love that went into cooking the curry.
● ‘Put Your Heart Into It’ portion of cooking, the more affection that you give the cooking, the higher the rating will be.
● No upward boundary on how much affection you can give it. Not enough affection will result in a lower rating, however.

I like these four components as the backbone for things, gives more flexibility to the outcome as well as the system can't be exploited by knowing how to 'win' - particularly if people resort to stepping in to replace their Pokéchef.

Originally Posted by Sandaa

Rating the Curry & tiers of rewards:

Based on the cumulative ratings of Flavor, Temperature, Texture, and Passion, the curry will be graded. I haven’t put too much thought in the overall numbers behind the ratings, but I think it would be best if each individual component was scored out of 25 points, coming to a maximum of 100 points total. Based off of that score, the curry could then be graded into the individual classes (Koffing, Wobbuffet, Milcery, Copperajah, and Charizard Classes)

I think the prizes could go something as follows: Maximum Rating would yield all 3 of the following: +3 levels, +1 Natural MT or EM, and +5 Bond. As the rating drops, maybe then you would have to pick only 1 or 2 of the aforementioned rewards. As such, I think it might be better if there are only 3 tiers of class ratings- maybe cut out the Koffing and Wobbuffet Classes. (Sorry MM)

Three classes with three tiers of outcome would keep things more organised - perhaps we could mix things up here and go with 'mon with more of a connection to FB for the classes too.

I like the sound of the rewards too, given the highest tier will require a team of people to co-ordinate well to achieve such a result I think they seem balanced.

Originally Posted by Sandaa

Potential Concerns/Things that Might Need to be Discussed:

● Berry exploitation: I think we might need to raise the price of berries in the department store, specifically the Stat-Altering Berries (currently priced $50). These berries can yield the greatest value of flavor increments, and I think it would probably be fairest if they were raised to like $250 or else there could be a potential loophole for exploitation.
● Pokemon Movepools (or lack thereof): If a participating Pokemon isn’t suited to a particular action (for example, an Exeggcute might not have any attacks to Fan the Flames) you the trainer may step in to perform the action on your Pokemon’s behalf, though the value behind that action might be lower than if a Pokemon were performing it.

Makes sense to bump up the price of the berries if they end up having a more potent use in the meta, I wouldn't have any complaints with that and I'm sure others would be similarly unfazed. I really like the idea of helping your Pokémon companions too so I'd be all for that, even if it, like you say, shouldn't be as well received as the Pokémon itself.

Originally Posted by Sandaa

Some Examples of Pokemon Actions:

● Temperature: Low BP attacks like Gust or Ember might be good if used in conjunction with other trainers. Maybe using something like Hurricane or Fire Blast would be a terrible idea lol. If you think there might be too much heat, maybe you could lower the temperature with an Icy Wind or something.
● Texture: like temperature, it’ll be best to use attacks in moderation. Stuff like Whirlpool, Topsy-Turvy, Teeter Dance might be suited for setting the base while assisting with attacks like Flame Charge, Agility, Tailwind, or Helping Hand might help speed it up. Attacks that lower speed or make Pokemon drowsy might help in correcting the texture if it goes too fast.
● Passion: Just use whatever you think contributes the most affection and encouragement into the cooking. Stuff like Charm, Attract, Helping Hand, Work Up would work well here. Other stat-boosting attacks might help too but to a lesser degree.

Love the idea of different moves having different effects on the curry in-progress as well as the overall outcome - people would need to get creative in their strategies and it'd push people and their teams in a unique way.

Originally Posted by Sandaa

While I still have concerns about this turning into yet another shop to mark off the checklist in order to maximize your gains in FB, I think setting restrictions on the amount of berries being used and number of times you can attempt it per year, I think it can serve as a fun distraction that requires a lot of coordination and teamwork in order to succeed.

I think with the correct limits set and the coordinative nature of the idea, this experience could feel much more like an alternative to raids or a zone adventure than your run-of-the-mill shop - I can already people picture strategizing to get their mitts on the tastiest dish.

Don't really feel like I have much more to add to this outside of support for the idea ^^

[Lil'twick]

Just giving my quick thoughts here but I am in agreement with PP here. The system looks fun and interesting, and I'm all for people having another avenue for roleplay with their Pokemon.

[lilboocorsola]

I still feel like we might be making things a bit more complicated than they need to be by turning the system into essentially another "Raid" mechanic but that's me selfishly talking from an Updator's perspective. If we are going all out with this, then one idea I have is that Attacks can also contribute to the flavor based on what Contest category they fall under. (Unfortunately this excludes newer Moves, but then in that case it could be up to Updator discretion to keep things more of a surprise?) Contest combos could even play a part to provide extra boosts, perhaps.

I just want Contests back can you tell OTL

[Sandaa]

I'm going to be blunt. If this is just going to turn into a "How can we make Contests a thing again?" mechanic, I'm going to pull the plug in this development. The initial cause for implementation was addressing a surplus of berries and using current generational mechanics to alleviate that issue as well as provide additional RPing/training opportunities for trainers. If I ever see that development for anything in FB is driven by personal goals or interests rather than benefiting the game as a whole, it probably shouldn't be implemented.

[ChrisClark13]

Adding in contest typing to moves in this is making it too complicated just from a design standpoint. Mostly because whoever's updating would then have to check an additional reference.

If a move would effect the flavor of the curry... I'd say leave it up to updater discretion.

Though applying a bit logic/common sense comes to the conclusion of: don't do things that will ruin the dish or the activity in most situations such as throwing a Toxic in there or using Explosion.

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Sandaa

I'm going to be blunt. If this is just going to turn into a "How can we make Contests a thing again?" mechanic, I'm going to pull the plug in this development. The initial cause for implementation was addressing a surplus of berries and using current generational mechanics to alleviate that issue as well as provide additional RPing/training opportunities for trainers. If I ever see that development for anything in FB is driven by personal goals or interests rather than benefiting the game as a whole, it probably shouldn't be implemented.

...That was not my intention, so I'll be blunt as well and elaborate further.

My first concern right now is that we're moving further and further away from the original concept of a simple "berry dump" into something more needlessly complex and increasingly dependent on subjective factors. So, in keeping with that complexity whilst also trying to simplify things from a mathematical perspective, utilizing Contest categories as a starting base guideline seems like a fair compromise. My main gripe with Raids right now is feeling "pigeonholed" into using the same Attack over and over just because it's the most effective damage-wise, so if we're going to turn this into something similar I'd like it to be more in line with Contests where variety and creativity are rewarded. I don't want people to feel like they're limited to just using a particular range of Attacks/Types and if their 'mon doesn't know certain good Moves then they can't contribute as much. I understand the examples given were already meant to be as inclusive as possible, but would prefer to see it opened up further so that any kind of action can have a significant effect on the outcome, but people will also have to keep in mind balancing different flavors and ensure their orders work well together, whether on a group or individual basis.

Originally Posted by ChrisClark13

Adding in contest typing to moves in this is making it too complicated just from a design standpoint. Mostly because whoever's updating would then have to check an additional reference.

If a move would effect the flavor of the curry... I'd say leave it up to updater discretion.

Though applying a bit logic/common sense comes to the conclusion of: don't do things that will ruin the dish or the activity in most situations such as throwing a Toxic in there or using Explosion.

From an Updator's standpoint, I think it'd be a lot clearer to have a set standard to reference rather than trying to determine how each Move affects things individually. "Appeal" points can easily be converted and calculated into something manageable as opposed to assigning arbitrary "values" and forcing the Updator to personally judge whether everything measures up or not. I'd like to leave as little room for numerical bias as possible, basically.

Edit- At any rate, what was meant to just be a throwaway joke aside, to summarize my stance on the matter: If we're going to expand Curry Cooking to such an extent, I'd like to see the structure lean more towards Contests than Raids in the sense of allowing more freedom of Move selection, but also bearing in mind the "burden" on the Updator to keep track of it all. The rapid-fire structure of Raid battles benefits from generally adhering to the games' formulas, so if an established system exists within the games that can be adapted and also applied to Curry then may as well make use of it to streamline the process. (Frankly if I had wanted to turn Curry Cooking into FB Contests completely then I would've advocated for a more freeform approach where the host is indeed the sole judge of "quality", but I want to keep things impartial and the logic behind the results straightforward/upfront.)

[lilboocorsola]

So, moving on since maybe I'm the only one being paranoid and overthinking things when folks are fine with the Updator calling all the shots through guesstimation like with Zone Adventures, I did have another thought regarding the "putting one's heart into it" portion: Since "heart" is kind of a vague concept, perhaps this could be dependent on RP effort? I didn't bring it up initially since I myself am not a big fan of the idea of making RP seem like a "requirement" to do well (and Emp's recent post in the Misc. Ideas thread only reaffirms that sentiment), but I know it's been suggested here before that rewards should indeed be earned through RP so figured I'd throw it out there to see how others feel about the proposal. If an RP factor is implemented I'd obviously like it to be a low threshold so people don't feel pressured to meet it, acting more as an extra bonus that can easily be made up by succeeding at the other cooking sections.

[Pearl's Perap]

Originally Posted by lilboocorsola

Since "heart" is kind of a vague concept, perhaps this could be dependent on RP effort? I didn't bring it up initially since I myself am not a big fan of the idea of making RP seem like a "requirement" to do well (and Emp's recent post in the Misc. Ideas thread only reaffirms that sentiment), but I know it's been suggested here before that rewards should indeed be earned through RP so figured I'd throw it out there to see how others feel about the proposal. If an RP factor is implemented I'd obviously like it to be a low threshold so people don't feel pressured to meet it, acting more as an extra bonus that can easily be made up by succeeding at the other cooking sections.

I personally think this sort of activity would be the perfect opportunity for roleplay, particularly the rounds that require more 'effort' on behalf of the participants. I don't think it should be mandated but I think it should have an effect on the overall outcome if people don't try when it counts. Given the sort of suggested prizes, I think it'd only be fair - particularly if Bond or/and $250 could be claimed in the usual way (if it could for this shop, anyway - not sure if this has come up in regards to this feature)

---

Bit of an aside to things and may not ultimately be of any use but I made a few notes after finding myself reading over things again and trying to think up a simple system for executing something like this -

Example scoring system (10 participants)
Flavour
Berries can give up to 50 points based on the combination - each berry would require its own score for this, could be translated from existing rarities/price tiers (though they’d probably all need to be bumped up in price, as Gary says)

Temperature, texture & passion
5 points available per round per ‘mon with a total of 150 points maximum for the following three subjective rounds - these could be judged by a panel to seek an average score if it didn’t require too much work (reading over each participant's four posts/decisions and scoring them out of 5 over the course of several weeks)

Divide final score by two to get class:
85-100 points = top class
70-85 points = mid class
55-70 points = low class

This is just a bit of an example and nothing serious so these numbers are all very rough and would require ten participants to take part the whole time - I just thought it might inspire some more discussion on things, particularly given the subjective nature of certain rounds ^^

[Ironthunder]

Sounds good but obviously it's gonna need to scale. 10 participants I feel is unrealistic, it's more likely to be around 4. We can nick the berry odds-and-sods and wrangle it to work.

A part of me wants to push for having poffin/pokeblock making as a purely aesthetic alternative to curry (same system, same rewards, just a different food made), but that may be a little much for what we have atm.

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Pearl's Perap

I personally think this sort of activity would be the perfect opportunity for roleplay, particularly the rounds that require more 'effort' on behalf of the participants. I don't think it should be mandated but I think it should have an effect on the overall outcome if people don't try when it counts. Given the sort of suggested prizes, I think it'd only be fair - particularly if Bond or/and $250 could be claimed in the usual way (if it could for this shop, anyway - not sure if this has come up in regards to this feature)

While I agree this sort of setting likely lends itself easier to RPing than Raids, some people just don't have the time to RP every reply on a weekly basis (self included normally), so I'd like to be lenient in this regard.

Originally Posted by Pearl's Perap

Temperature, texture & passion
5 points available per round per ‘mon with a total of 150 points maximum for the following three subjective rounds - these could be judged by a panel to seek an average score if it didn’t require too much work (reading over each participant's four posts/decisions and scoring them out of 5 over the course of several weeks)

I think having a panel of judges would make things more fair, if a bit harder to coordinate. I've been working under the assumption this would be a one-man operation (namely by myself, which is why I was hesitant at the idea of increasing the workload/responsibility beyond just crunching some numbers >>; ), but would definitely be down for making it a joint effort. On that note, I guess I'd like to ask: Who here is interested in helping to run this?

(Note: Given the subjective nature of certain rounds, judges probably shouldn't be allowed to participate, so we'd also need reserves/a rotating panel if someone wants to jump in themselves.)

Originally Posted by Ironthunder

Sounds good but obviously it's gonna need to scale. 10 participants I feel is unrealistic, it's more likely to be around 4. We can nick the berry odds-and-sods and wrangle it to work.

Maybe max out the number of participants at 8 like with Raids? (Or just forego a limit and adjust the scaling system as necessary.) I expect a fair number of people to flock in at the beginning but as time goes on and Berry stashes dwindle so too will the activity levels.

Originally Posted by Ironthunder

A part of me wants to push for having poffin/pokeblock making as a purely aesthetic alternative to curry (same system, same rewards, just a different food made), but that may be a little much for what we have atm.

I wouldn't mind this but I've already shot myself in the foot regarding Contest-related things so I'll just keep my mouth shut now. 8)

[Pearl's Perap]

Originally Posted by Ironthunder

Sounds good but obviously it's gonna need to scale. 10 participants I feel is unrealistic, it's more likely to be around 4. We can nick the berry odds-and-sods and wrangle it to work.

Of course, I think I went with ten with an image of two sessions running a month in my head - not necessarily suggesting that this be a requirement or anything, as I say it was more to imagine how things could operate

Originally Posted by lilboocorsola

While I agree this sort of setting likely lends itself easier to RPing than Raids, some people just don't have the time to RP every reply on a weekly basis (self included normally), so I'd like to be lenient in this regard.

I’m thinking more just people interacting with their ‘mon and the curry and/or other participants - nothing more than 50 words at a push and optional

Originally Posted by lilboocorsola

I think having a panel of judges would make things more fair, if a bit harder to coordinate. I've been working under the assumption this would be a one-man operation (namely by myself, which is why I was hesitant at the idea of increasing the workload/responsibility beyond just crunching some numbers >>; ), but would definitely be down for making it a joint effort. On that note, I guess I'd like to ask: Who here is interested in helping to run this?

(Note: Given the subjective nature of certain rounds, judges probably shouldn't be allowed to participate, so we'd also need reserves/a rotating panel if someone wants to jump in themselves.)

Totally agree on judges being absent from the taking part in the dish, might mean the activity lends itself to smaller groups so that they can participate too if they so wish. I’d be happy to offer some assistance with the panel or something similar either way, particularly if it was something that would help to make the offering more ‘fair’

Originally Posted by lilboocorsola

Maybe max out the number of participants at 8 like with Raids? (Or just forego a limit and adjust the scaling system as necessary.) I expect a fair number of people to flock in at the beginning but as time goes on and Berry stashes dwindle so too will the activity levels.

I think that sounds fair enough, having a system that will scale up or down based on participants would definitely be the best idea too