IQ and the perks that come with it

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by TheKnightsFury

Are Advanced moves like Draco Meteor and Pledges?

Those as well as Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, and Volt Tackle. In fact, the Move Tutor, looking back at it, doesn't seem to mention the Pledge moves under the Advanced Moves...

Originally Posted by TheKnightsFury

By Move Relearner are you referring to the Move Tutor? If so I really don't like the idea of not being able to access it straight away. Some Pokemon get absolutely nothing to help them out early on and this can make it really hard to RP with them and level them outside of Daycare.

I'm thinking what Marion's referring to specifically is the new feature of the Move Tutor that allows for learning level-up moves from later levels- like, you could drop off a level 35 Weezing to learn Belch, which it wouldn't normally get until level 51.

[TheKnightsFury]

Originally Posted by Missingno. Master

Those as well as Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, and Volt Tackle. In fact, the Move Tutor, looking back at it, doesn't seem to mention the Pledge moves under the Advanced Moves...



I'm thinking what Marion's referring to specifically is the new feature of the Move Tutor that allows for learning level-up moves from later levels- like, you could drop off a level 35 Weezing to learn Belch, which it wouldn't normally get until level 51.

Thanks for the clarification, in that case I really like the proposal!

[Maskerade]

I still think we have too many tiers and too many percentages and overall too many details to keep track of in a system that ought to be simple... From the 10-level tiers to the IQ and Gummis, I do see an effort to adjust to the previous mold rather than do away with it entirely, right down to the Gummi Bomb and Defensive Shield moves. I know we inherited Fizzy Bubbles and some roots are worth keeping but this is one I could really do without :P

I guess I just can't get on board with a Gummi or IQ system to begin with and would much rather see the whole thing scrapped than accommodated into something else. I realize the logic behind addressing the other end of the happiness spectrum, but I don't think obedience percentages and 5 tiers to each side are really necessary. I for one doubt I'll be able to keep track of a system like this when updating several players and Pokemon at once. I understand the effort should be mine to be on top of these things, but again for that reason, something more linear and less impactful on gameplay would be preferred from my personal perspective.

I would also prefer not to see Shadow Pokemon not be trivialized and achievable by mistreatment only, but again, personal preference. Can't say I'm overly fond of the proposed system... But I also realize I only have to play along until Happiness evo triggers and ignore it afterwards, so I won't make a fuss.

[Raves]

I'm with Mask on the percentage based thing. By any standards, we should be moving away from descriptions in percentage values, and more towards a defined statement or value. That 5% chance at -10 for instance would be interpreted as 'a small chance' while at full shadow stage that 25% would be better off as 'highly likely'.

That aside, I like the thoughts going here.

[Gemini Spark]

The problem with using vague statements as "small chance" or "highly likely" is that they could be interpreted completely different to updaters. "Small chance" could be seen as 5% to one updater, 10% to another, and 15% to yet another, while "highly likely" could be 50%, 60%, 75%, or even 80% or 90% depending on updater opinion.

And updater opinion matters a lot because it determines what players think about their updater. If someone's stance on "highly likely" means that the odds of something happening are too high or too low relative to another updater, people will catch on to that and wonder why they don't have the same odds the other updater has. Then any of the following can result:

1) The updater is staunch on their opinion and is therefore not a popular updater.
2) The updater caves in and changes things so that they're a bit more in line with the other updater's opinion even if they liked their numbers better, and as enough time passes a small subset of numbers are more or less accepted by the community though not explicitly stated in the rules because "explicitly stating numbers is bad". Thus we have people repeatedly asking what "highly likely" or "small chance" mean.
3) The updater might not be completely stubborn, but they're sure the other updater is completely wrong about their numbers and tries to get them to change theirs, in which case either of the above happens.

In all scenarios, there's nothing definitively clarified for all the players even if their updater tries to clarify things for their players. The players can see that it's one way for one updater, but what if there's a different adventure with a different updater with a differing set of opinions? I can see how vague statements allow for flexibility between different zones and even different areas of zones, but unless some sort of consistency can be guaranteed as far as "small/moderate/high chance" is concerned, it's simply too confusing for everyone involved.

[Balmund]

The difference in the subjective evaluation between updaters is fine, honestly. There might be a bit of variance, but it should ultimately amount to the same more or less. It should be considered that, unlike tabletop rpgs, the storyteller is always "rolling the dice" for you, and there is no way to prove whether or nor said rolls are legit, nor is there a need for it. Marion also made a point that even with fixed percentages in place, you can still have inconsistent results on small sample sizes; this is basic statistics (see whole "shinies on springtime event" discussion). Discrepancy between updaters is always going to be a thing, and it has never been a source of grief for anyone during their adventures so far, as far as I can recall.

So I must insist, drop it with the numbers and stick with worded cues. If you personaly wish to assign fixed numbers to them while updating that's fine, but people shouldn't be expected to have them mandatorily enforced. In the end, they're all just narrative tools.

[deoxys]

I will go on record as an updater to say there are only three instances in which I will use controlled RNG.

1. In the midst of a battle, when a move has lowered accuracy, or a chance to do something such as inflict a status condition, and I cannot decide for myself how I want the outcome to be. I will then try to fall back on the actual established in-game chances of a given attack.

2. Someone is making a story decision that could quite frankly go either way, and I already have in mind multiple possible directions for the story to go based on their decision - the amount rolled on a d20 will determine the effectiveness of their decision. I have only had to do this two or three times total, but I only did it if I was stuck at a crossroads.

Edit, forgot this one: 3. Determining whether or not an encountered Pokemon is Shiny.

I feel as though the updater can determine everything else with storytelling and writing.

So, I do, for the most part, like Marion's system, but I am honestly pretty opposed to set percentage chance systems being forcefully used. I get what Spark means about rewording to probability words being subjective to the updater, and honestly, I think that would be fine. One person's "lowered chance" might not be another person's "lowered chance". It should, as much as possible, be whatever feels right. Updaters are essentially DMs - they can choose whatever they want to have happen, whenever they want it to happen, at their own discretion.

[Marion Ette]

I did design a potential compromise here - because subjective terms to me are a bit TOO vague, I offer rough percentage ranges with the qualifiers. If this is still too exact, I can get rid of them altogether, but I like at least giving the percentage guideline to work off of:


-20: Your Pokemon could not hate you more if it tried. It has become a SHADOW of its former self, and will be recolored to show this. It will obtain a shadow aura, as well. FRUSTRATION is at its maximum power. Your Pokemon will refuse to go to the Daycare, MT or Breeding Center, no matter how strongly you word your request. Shadow Pokémon have a substantial chance (roughly 35-50%) of either completely ignoring their trainers orders and not attacking at all, or of using a move from their existing movepool they've not been instructed to use. Freshly obtained Shadow Pokemon (from events and whatnot) start at this level. Your Pokemon will refuse to learn TMs if you offer them to it. Your Pokemon will not accept held items from you. Your Pokemon will refuse to participate in Incognito Isle.

-15: Your Pokemon has a significant chance (roughly 25-35%) of either completely ignoring your orders and not attacking at all, or of using a move from their existing movepool they've not been instructed to use. Your Pokemon will refuse to learn TMs if you offer them to it. Your Pokemon will not accept held items from you. Your Pokemon will refuse to participate in Incognito Isle.

-10: Your Pokemon has a slight chance (roughly 10-25%) of either completely ignoring your orders and not attacking at all, or of using a move from their existing movepool they've not been instructed to use. Your Pokemon will not accept held items from you. Your Pokemon will refuse to participate in Incognito Isle.

-5: Your Pokemon has a very slight chance (roughly 0-10%) of either completely ignoring your orders and not attacking at all, or of using a move from their existing movepool they've not been instructed to use. Your Pokemon will refuse to participate in Incognito Isle.

0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. No benefits or drawbacks at this level. Shadow Pokemon are reverted to normal, UNLESS a fee of $1000 is paid to maintain a convincing glamour of the Pokemon's former shadow form. Non-shadow Pokemon start here by default.

10: Your Pokemon can utilize the Move Relearner.

20: Your Pokemon can utilize any TM - even those outside its species limitations. All previous bonuses above 0 apply.

30: Happiness evolutions can occur at this stage. The Pokemon can learn TM Gummi Bomb OR an EM/MT move of choice. All previous bonuses above 0 apply.

40: The Pokemon can learn Guardian Terrain OR an Advanced/Shadow move of choice. Advanced/Shadow moves can now be learned by this Pokemon at the MT. All previous bonuses above 0 apply.

50: MAXIMUM. Daycare levels earned for this Pokemon are doubled. This Pokemon will earn a special aura for being max IQ. Pokemon at both max level and max IQ learn Defensive Shield OR one Advanced/Shadow move & one EM/MT move. RETURN is at maximum power. All previous bonuses above 0 apply.

[Sandaa]

I think it looks great. Unless anyone else has anything they want to add, I think it's ready to be put into action!

[Nerd Violence]

I like it, but will there be a way to lower our friendship/bond/link/whatever in addition to raising it?

[Toyo]

Are we sticking with the old "IQ" term or are we switching to Bond? Can all Pokemon pick up Shadow Moves, or is that a Shadow only restriction?

[Lil'twick]

Looking good Marion. If you don't mind adding in the three Pokeballs I proposed for Shadow Pokemon I mentioned a few pages back, along with changes to the Luxury and Friend balls for this system, mind if I rewrite them if this ships?

Also I personally prefer the percentages since in the case of this, a subjective term can be taken differently by updater to updater. You shouldn't be screwed over for using a Shadow Pokemon. Yes it should be difficult, but it shouldn't be an actual hindrance.

Also, since it would make sense for them, could we possibly give Starter Pokemon an increased base bond?

[Marion Ette]

Originally Posted by 134

I like it, but will there be a way to lower our friendship/bond/link/whatever in addition to raising it?

After giving it more thought, I think the lowering process will need more development before it gets implemented and I don't want to hold up the Friendship System solely for those developments - mainly, I have concerns about how this will look in practice, as I obviously want to avoid RPs that involve blatant or excessive animal cruelty (even if these animals are fictional creatures) so developing guidelines - or figuring out alternatives to RPing a broken relationship - is going to take some time.

In short, it will not be in the current implementation, but I want to explore the option for the future. I am open to ideas here, as well!

Originally Posted by Toyo

Are we sticking with the old "IQ" term or are we switching to Bond? Can all Pokemon pick up Shadow Moves, or is that a Shadow only restriction?

Bond makes more sense, I think.

Non-Shadow Pokemon will be able to learn Shadow Moves at 40 Bond or above. We can probably keep the system where Shadow Pokemon learn two random Shadow moves upon being obtained.

Originally Posted by Lil'twick

Looking good Marion. If you don't mind adding in the three Pokeballs I proposed for Shadow Pokemon I mentioned a few pages back, along with changes to the Luxury and Friend balls for this system, mind if I rewrite them if this ships?

Also I personally prefer the percentages since in the case of this, a subjective term can be taken differently by updater to updater. You shouldn't be screwed over for using a Shadow Pokemon. Yes it should be difficult, but it shouldn't be an actual hindrance.

Also, since it would make sense for them, could we possibly give Starter Pokemon an increased base bond?

I don't mind adding those Pokeballs, and we can have Luxury and Friend Balls impact this system, too - if you wouldn't mind sending along the rewrites, I think we'll be going ahead with this system and seeing how it works.

Starter having slightly increased bond is fine. I was thinking they could start at 5.

[Sandaa]

Originally Posted by Marion Ette

Non-Shadow Pokemon will be able to learn Shadow Moves at 40 Bond or above. We can probably keep the system where Shadow Pokemon learn two random Shadow moves upon being obtained.

The question I have about this is, from a narrative standpoint, what is the point of having Pokemon that were never shadows to begin with learn Shadow moves? Likewise, from a game mechanic standpoint, aren't shadow moves on non-shadow pokemon a little broken? If I can recall, aren't shadow moves super effective against all non-shadow Pokemon at the expense of raising the shadow meter or whatever. How is that going to work if the non-shadow pokemon can't go into hyper mode to begin with, and wouldn't people just end up spamming the always super effective shadow moves when they get them?

[Gemini Spark]

Maybe non-Shadow Pokemon using Shadow Moves lowers the bond with their trainer, slowly turning them into Shadow Pokemon? It would be an effective way to lower bond for those who want to turn their Pokemon into Shadows without any particular cruelty on the trainer's part, and it would also be a risk that Pokemon who really don't want to be Shadows don't take.

[Sandaa]

While I think that could be an effective solution, to raise the bond to 40 in order to unlock the Shadow Moves seems counter-intuitive...

[Median Dia]

Well, there are seven Shadow Moves that don't deal damage at all, so it's not like Rave and Rush are the only options. Sure, one of those seven is Shadow Sky, which people will naturally be hesitant about giving their non-shadows, but the point still stands.

Besides, a good updator should have an easy time countering Shadow!Spam, since it's pretty much a more limited version of Standard!Typespam. By the time you have a Shadow Attack on your pokemon, you should already have a decently varied arsenal thanks to the universal accesses and won't be limited to the rewards in the first place. Never mind how prevalent the Boltbeam trio, Psychic, and Earthquake are in terms of natural movepools... You probably get the picture.

Of course, that's just my point of view on things. I'm sure other people have their own thoughts on the matter!

[Missingno. Master]

I personally disagree with Shadow moves lowering Bond, especially if non-Shadows get Shadow moves because of high Bond to begin with.

[EpicSquirtle]

I have some concerns with non-shadow Pokémon learning shadow moves. If any Pokémon at a certain bond level can learn shadow moves, then I feel that takes away from the purpose of shadow Pokémon in the first place. Why have a shadow Pokémon with all its disadvantages when you can teach a non-shadow Pokémon these moves? I think if this is going to be a feature, there should at least be a limit on the amount of shadow moves a non-shadow Pokémon can learn.

[Median Dia]

I do understand your concern here, but there is one critical detail you're missing here: non-shadows can only get 2 at max. and have to work for them, whereas shadows can get all of them just for being themselves. This, I feel, ultimately gives the shadows the edge here, but since this is guaranteed to not be enough to convince anyone, I've prepared a few scenarios to read through.

If you just look at the in-gmae mechanics, Shadow Wave, Shadow Rave, and Shadow Storm all look awfully similar- they're all multi-target special attacks with no special traits or effects, with the only difference between the three being their power. Put them in an RP perspective, however, and their differences become readily apparent: Shadow Wave creates a small orbs of energy that lazily float towards their target, Shadow Rave sends quick bolts of energy flying through the ground until it bursts up at the opponents as vicious spikes, and Shadow Storm is what Twister should have been... plus one for target beyond the first. From this perspective, Wave makes for a decent warning shot, Rave is great for catching opponents off-guard (unless you've already used Earth Power on them, I guess), and Storm's great for when you want wanton destruction alongside the removal of your enemy. A non-shadow can only get two of them at maximum, whereas a genuine shadow can easily get all three.

From a more strategic standpoint, there's one particularly nasty combination of attacks shadow pokemon have access to the non-shadows don't: Shadow Panic to confuse the foes, Shadow Down to lower their Physical Defenses, Shadow Mist to drop their Evasiveness, and Shadow End (a normally inaccurate attack) to devastate what remains of their HP. Seriously, taking a 120 power super-effective attack at -2 is really sure to hurt! But, again, only actual shadows can pull this off- everyone else has to cut corners somewhere, and that could easily ruin your plans in the long run.

It is also worth noting that you are making a sacrifice by choosing to take a Shadow Attack. Unless you're a smeargle, this is your one chance to learn Guardian terrain or Defensive Shield- not that big a deal for some, sure, but a pretty big one for others. In a similar vein, it seems like a chesnaught that decides to take Shadow Shed and Shadow Hold might not be able to pick up Grass Pledge or Frenzy Plant- though whether this is just me misinterpreting this as a covert attempt to lock AMs or not is hard to tell.

Ultimately, this is a group decision. I'll be fine with it no matter what the group decides.

[EpicSquirtle]

When you put it that way, I can see where you're coming from. I'm on board with the idea now. Disregard my previous post.

[Missingno. Master]

Originally Posted by Median Dia

From a more strategic standpoint, there's one particularly nasty combination of attacks shadow pokemon have access to the non-shadows don't: Shadow Panic to confuse the foes, Shadow Down to lower their Physical Defenses, Shadow Mist to drop their Evasiveness, and Shadow End (a normally inaccurate attack) to devastate what remains of their HP. Seriously, taking a 120 power super-effective attack at -2 is really sure to hurt! But, again, only actual shadows can pull this off- everyone else has to cut corners somewhere, and that could easily ruin your plans in the long run.

*takes notes*

...But wait- the current proposal for Bond includes, in addition to the two chances to learn Advanced/Shadow moves, the ability to learn said moves at the Move Tutor, so as it stands right now, non-Shadows can easily get more than two Shadow moves. Unless you're suggesting we get rid of the option to learn Shadow moves via Move Tutor, thus limiting non-Shadows to two Shadow moves maximum, in which case I can't exactly argue with that.

And what of purified Shadow Pokémon? Would they get to keep their Shadow moves, then, if we're allowing non-Shadows to learn them?

[Marion Ette]

Latest version, probably close to final if not final. Made some of the restrictions for Shadows gentler, and limited number of Shadow moves that non-Shadow Pokemon can learn to 2 (and these are to be chosen instead of the custom moves). This draft of the proposal makes Shadow Pokemon more special while keeping them a double-edged sword; they have unlimited access to Shadow moves, which balances the cost of using them a bit more.

One thing I'm considering is a rare item - or possibly a Pokeball in addition to the ones that Lit proposed- which would allow a non-Shadow Pokemon access to a random Shadow move, but cause negative bond to accumulate with every adventure post in which that Pokemon has the item equipped/is stored in that Pokeball - and using the shadow move with this item equipped would lower bond even further. Just an idea I'm throwing out there for the future, possibly.


-20: Your Pokemon could not hate you more if it tried. It has become a SHADOW of its former self, and will be recolored to show this. It will obtain a shadow aura, as well. FRUSTRATION is at its maximum power. Shadow Pokémon have a substantial chance (roughly 35-50%) of either completely ignoring their trainers orders and not attacking at all, or of using a move from their existing movepool they've not been instructed to use. Freshly obtained Shadow Pokemon (from events and whatnot) start at this level. Your Pokemon will refuse to learn TMs if you offer them to it. Your Pokemon will not accept held items from you. Your Pokemon will refuse to participate in Incognito Isle. Shadow Pokemon are able to learn Shadow Moves at the MT.

-15: Your Pokemon has a significant chance (roughly 25-35%) of either completely ignoring your orders and not attacking at all, or of using a move from their existing movepool they've not been instructed to use. Your Pokemon will not accept held items from you. Your Pokemon will refuse to participate in Incognito Isle.

-10: Your Pokemon has a slight chance (roughly 10-25%) of either completely ignoring your orders and not attacking at all, or of using a move from their existing movepool they've not been instructed to use. Your Pokemon will refuse to participate in Incognito Isle.

-5: Your Pokemon has a very slight chance (roughly 0-10%) of either completely ignoring your orders and not attacking at all, or of using a move from their existing movepool they've not been instructed to use.

0: Your Pokemon is neutral toward you. No benefits or drawbacks at this level. Shadow Pokemon are reverted to normal when they reach or exceed 0, UNLESS a fee of $1000 is paid for psychological stabilization, which will allow them to keep their shadow form and utilize shadow moves with bond at or above 0. Non-shadow Pokemon start here by default.

10: Your Pokemon can utilize the Move Relearner.

20: Your Pokemon can utilize any TM - even those outside its species limitations. All previous bonuses above 0 apply.

30: Happiness evolutions can occur at this stage. The Pokemon can learn TM Gummi Bomb OR an EM/MT move of choice. All previous bonuses above 0 apply.

40: The Pokemon can learn Guardian Terrain OR an Advanced/Shadow move of choice. Advanced moves can now be learned by this Pokemon at the MT. All previous bonuses above 0 apply.

50: MAXIMUM. Daycare levels earned for this Pokemon are doubled. This Pokemon will earn a special aura for being max IQ. Pokemon at both max level and max IQ learn Defensive Shield OR one Advanced/Shadow move & one EM/MT move. RETURN is at maximum power. All previous bonuses above 0 apply.

[Missingno. Master]

It's looking pretty good, Marion. The only thing I'm still wondering at this stage is what becomes of a Shadow Pokémon's Shadow moves upon purification- since this system will enable non-Shadows limited access to Shadow moves, will purified Shadow Pokémon be allowed to keep any of their Shadow moves? Some of them? All of them? If none, do they get any unique moves upon purification like in XD?

[Marion Ette]

Originally Posted by Missingno. Master

It's looking pretty good, Marion. The only thing I'm still wondering at this stage is what becomes of a Shadow Pokémon's Shadow moves upon purification- since this system will enable non-Shadows limited access to Shadow moves, will purified Shadow Pokémon be allowed to keep any of their Shadow moves? Some of them? All of them? If none, do they get any unique moves upon purification like in XD?

If the stabilization fee is paid, upon purification Shadow Pokemon will be able to keep all their Shadow Moves, but will not be able to learn new ones unless they reach 40/50 Bond. If the stabilization fee is not paid, I had originally thought that all Shadow moves would be wiped - but perhaps we can allow for Pokemon who are completely purified to keep one or two moves of their choice.