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Old 09-09-2015, 09:58 PM   #26
TheKnightsFury
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Maybe instead of making refereeing a requirement to move up a level you could use it to allow a trainer to move up quicker. Maybe like say if a ref does X amount of battles the KO or TP requirement is only Y amount instead of Z amount. This would give trainers a reason other than SP to ref and will not inhibit those trainers that are not interested in refing or dont have the time to ref.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:02 PM   #27
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I would say keep the requirement in place but definitely add another higher bar for those that want to go for it to get rewarded for going above and beyond.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:40 PM   #28
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Is Leavanny really a TL3 material? I don't know it can actually be good, I have only recently started battling, but IMO it shouldn't be in the same acquisition level as Venomoth, Volcarona, Galvantula and Escavalier.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:42 PM   #29
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TBH Volcarona seems a bit much for TL3, given all the boosts it can do and access to Giga Drain.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:53 PM   #30
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Volcarona is okay but its typing is really pure rubbish.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:58 PM   #31
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Volcarona is okay but its typing is really pure rubbish.
Still does it deserve to be on the same acquisition level as a Leavanny?
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:07 AM   #32
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I wasn't disagreeing with you (Leavanny is TL2 let's not kid ourselves here). :p
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:17 AM   #33
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Wait, Volcarona is TL2?
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:22 AM   #34
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....No. It's TL3. I was saying Leavanny is easily TL2 because its not great.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:28 AM   #35
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I'd like to posit that Snorlax, Gengar, and Dragonite should be reduced from TL7 to TL6.

Are they strong? Yes. Obscenely so. However. These are the Pokemon people get to TL7 in order to use: Mew, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Deoxys, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Arceus. I'm sorry but I have seen the movepools and the SCs of these Pokemon. I love Gengar, Dragonite, and Snorlax to death, but they simply cannot compete with these kind of heavy hitters.

Since the restructuring officially and explicitly sets TLs as a tier list first and a progression of skill second, I personally believe that those three should be taken down a notch.

Disclaimer: I've neither used nor had to deal with any of those 3.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:31 AM   #36
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Actually IMO even majority of TL2 pokemon are more appealing than Leavanny, like Masquerain, Ledian, Heracross, Accelgor, Yanmega, Pincer, Paracect. The only TL2 bug type that it really outclasses is sadly Swadloon.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:52 AM   #37
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Keep in mind shuckle that 1) none of those legends are going to be common at all 2) people can only have one

I personally see the legends and regular pokemon to be on two different tier lists and it's simply makes the most sense to have the two together. Them all being at TL7 doesn't necessarily mean that they're on the same footing.

And having no easily achievable pokemon at TL7 makes the entire change obsolete.
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Old 09-10-2015, 01:49 AM   #38
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Okay so I've thought pretty long and hard about what the underlying problem with the change is. And I think it ultimately boils down to the fact that the proposed new TL system and the proposed new Acquisition Levels do not seem to be on the same wavelength. The Acquisition Levels are screaming "Hey guys, we made a TL 3.5 type of system that we've really been needing to help even things out around the middle for a while now" while the leveling system is basically just going "HEY GUYS LOOK TL7! ...also TP req changes that don't really make sense!"

So here's what I propose.

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TL1: Squad Summary
TL2: 10 KO, 30 TP
TL3: 25 KO, 75 TP, Pass Ref Test
TL4: 45 KO, 125 TP, 10 Reffed KOs
TL5: 75 KO, 200 TP, 1 Badge, 15 Reffed KOs
TL6: 120 KO, 290 TP, 2 Badges (1 Gym), 25 Reffed KOs (3 Gym)
TL7: 180 KO, 410 TP, 3 Badges (2 Gym), 30 Reffed KOs (6 Gym)


The rewards are honestly fine and can stay as is, but this proposed system really helps to bring in line the idea that we needed a TL3.5 of sorts, that being the new TL4. Instead of adding an extra step for people to climb to reach things and spreading out Pokemon so that anything of relative note is at a level that has previously taken any trainer not named Connor, Dave, or myself multiple years to reach, this system shortens the steps but evens them out a bit better, making it so you still have to do just a bit more work than before to get to the very top as opposed to our 6-TL system while evening out the middle levels to still be accessible and enjoyable to climb.

KOs in this proposed system work on a slightly more progressive scale than previous systems, requiring 10 to hit TL2 as per the norm, 15 to hit TL3 to bring that down just a little, another 20 to hit TL4 (old TL3.5), putting that literally smack at the point where it would have been the dead center of TL3 in the old system, 30 to reach TL5 (old TL4) which means a little more work for what used to be TL4 'mon but not a TON, 45 to reach TL6 (old TL5), once again more than the old TL5 by a bit but still close enough that it's not frankly a laughing point, and 60 to reach TL7 (old TL6), which is the exact number between old TL5 and old TL6 in the old system so it carries over the workload needed from the old system nicely without dragging the required amount up to be a little over the top.

TP is set up on a bit of a simple scale, with TL2 and TL3 requiring TP equal to 3x the amount of KOs needed (so what would be an even w/l record if all matches were the same), TL4 (old TL3.5) and TL5 (old TL4) requiring TP equal to 2.5x the amount of KOs needed (so an improved w/l record as compared to before), and TL6 (old TL5) and TL7 (old TL6) requiring TP equal to 2x the amount of KOs needed to reach that level (a literally perfect w/l record throughout that TL). This allows for a much better scale of TP necessary in comparison to the growing skill level you should probably has as you progress through the levels.

The Badges proposed are exactly the same as in the changed system, but because TL5 is what old TL4 really was before, I really must recommend we not get rid of the Novice Badge, as it really only has MORE of a reason to exist now than it did before. It makes no sense for us to require people to shell out a frankly large amount of SP on the other badges we offer when they... really aren't that great right now.

Finally, the required reffing amount. I love the idea that was put forward, I just don't necessarily like the manner in which it was. It just doesn't make sense to me to basically have a 3v3 count the exact same amount as a 6v6 does. So I propose we do it in full matchups ending in KO, which would be equal to half the number of KOs the trainer themself requires to level up (rounded up to the nearest five in the case of TL6), which means that they're roughly pulling their weight as far as reffing goes. I also propose that we make TL3 require passing the Ref Test, so at least they have their feet on the ground at that point and have no excuse for not working towards the reffings required for future levels. Obviously these numbers set forward above are all individual to their specific level. And in order to prevent leveling matches from counting, I propose two simple restrictions on these. First, that the match CANNOT be in a scale below 6/9. Second, that the match CANNOT be in an equi below that of the lowest leveled trainer in the match. I think this way we can still have leveling matches count and even go so far in the process as to promote healthy leveling matches in which veterans will teach newer trainers a few things without just tossing out five rounds of typespam and calling it a match. As for these, I would like to propose that we allow some degree of retroactivity to apply, so people aren't bumped down effective Trainer Levels if they've done more than their fair share of reffing. Perhaps a retroactivity of half credit per full matchup ending in KO that fits the restrictions that happened during the time between when the trainer reached whatever level they might get bumped down to and now, as it would mean they'd pulled double their weight in regards to reaching that level.

With all that said, I'm just going to lay off the actual Acquisition Level discussion until my points are covered and considered, because as is if my points are give the thumbs up a large majority of the proposed Acquisition Level changes are going to be okay, but if we insist on staying with the strange metric that was put in announcements, or something close to it, I would have to recommend a lot of change in them.

Additionally, while I do love the new Legend rules, I would like to propose a single change. While I do understand the limit on TL6 and TL7 Legends, I personally think that if you shell out the SP and win the challenge you should be allowed more than that one. And after all we all want to be the best, like no-one ever was. It makes no sense to say "Oh now every Pokemon is available but it's still impossible to catch them all." in my opinion. As such, I propose that we be allowed as many of them as we are able to catch, but with the restriction that we only be allowed to bring a single TL6 or TL7 Legend AT ALL across all of our open matches at any given time. This way we can still catch 'em all, but we can't abuse the power we might accrue.

Discuss.
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:37 AM   #39
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I'm trying to find much I object to here. Honestly, I don't feel like we should allow people to amass huge collections of legendaries of the higher tiers, but then again, I'm honestly not too keen on introducing the "Ubers" anyway.

There was also discussion on the req of Equi not being able to be under either trainer's TL in this propsal:

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[1:18:47 AM] Emi the Firestorm Monarch: Sneeze definitely did a very good thing
[1:22:11 AM] Emi the Firestorm Monarch: The only thing I probably don't agree with is vets not being able to do leveling matches with each other and having it count because I don't honestly feel ASB has come far enough where vets will be more respectful to newbies in battling but its honestly a minor thing
[1:22:53 AM] Emi the Firestorm Monarch: and more an issue of attitude and culture than policy
[1:23:06 AM] Effectively an "and": what if we allowed Equiall but not Equilevel?
[1:23:21 AM] Effectively an "and": so you have to use the low-leveled Pokémon as low stages
[1:23:37 AM] Effectively an "and": especially pronounced with new Acquisitions bumping everything up hugely
[1:23:44 AM] Emi the Firestorm Monarch: Yeah that's a fair point
[1:24:12 AM] Emi the Firestorm Monarch: I mean we do frown on people who use equilevel in matches like that but I dunno I don't feel its enough sometimes
I mean, if we're considering this system alongside the vast majority of the revised acquisitions, lower Equiall is mostly not-fully-evolved Pokemon, the ones who actually need levels, and it does the same to avoid using high evos to just spam the foe into a streak into the ground. I think it's a nice compromise.

All in all, Sneezey's proposal fits and makes a lot of sense, and I put my support behind it as well
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:23 AM   #40
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So I just realized I forgot to mention this in the writeup I did, and I'd rather not edit it and have people not see this important bit. For the equi restriction mentioned for the reffings, it would only apply to standard and exhibition matches, meaning Gym and tourney matches with those lower equi would still count, since those are still a thing at least to some degree.
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:34 AM   #41
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>Slash supports Sneazes proposals that contain required reffing
>Objects to required reffing when it's Connor proposing it

Subtle.

That out of the way; I was chatting to Connor the other day and proposed the reffing requirements be changed to "SP earnt" (ie not gifted from another player). Rewards faster, active refs over slower ones and also opens up alternate avenues like coaching where you're still contributing to the league. Trying to apply the reffing/SP/whatever retroactively would be a ballache just from an accounting perspective though (I'm pretty sure most/all of our current TL whatevers probably have reffed to whatever requirements for they level they're at - I mean even I have - it's just a pain to go back and check) but support Connor's wiping the slate clean in regards to reffing requirements for your next level up got much the same reason.

On the KO requirement front I agree. TL1 and 2 are fine, but from there onwards New!TL3-7 are Old!TL2.5-6.5 and should probably be KO'd accordingly. Sneazes proposed modifications seem sound to me on that front.

I like Connors existing restriction on Uber legends.
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:56 AM   #42
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While I honestly do not object much at all to the new acquisitions aside from the standard fare "BAWWWWWWWWWW I LOSE MY EELEKTROSS AND MY OTHER NICE THINGS", Sneaze's proposal definitely makes sense. I quite like it, and I think that if it's implemented a lot of the unrest that goes with these changes may well disappear. I definitely agree we should either keep the novice's badge or lower the price of the pretty shitty badges we have right now (maybe even make some new ones?). Making the reffing reqs based on KOs is nice too, and I fully support that as well.

However, I think the only revision we should to the way legends work is: You may only own two total of the TL6 and TL7 legends. This way, you don't net any more OP Legends, but if you don't like any of the TL7 ones and you want both Lugia and Ho-Oh, you can do that. It also keeps you from running around with Mew/Mewtwo/Arceus/Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza which would probably be insane.
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:20 AM   #43
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I'm actually going to say something kind of ironic and say that if we use the scale Sneasel is proposing, it gets pretty close to defeating the purpose of TL7. I'm 4th on the table in number of KOs and I automatically make TL7. It doesn't actually give older members something to work towards because now we suddenly are at the same place we were before. Altering the level system like this doesn't actually slow down the ASB in any meaningful way (if anything because we've lowered TP requirements, which you kept, it's going to speed things up). For this same reason, I don't really particularly like grandfathering people into new levels. If these changes only affect people who move up from now on, we're not really going to get anything out of it. That said, I really don't want to have people level down so we'll do like we did with Cele and give people amnesty on requirements they've lost due to things we've changed.

I'm not really against lowering some KO requirements, but we're going to just have people speeding through levels again if we push them much lower than they already are, which honestly could be compounded by reffing requirements if we start to augment our reffing stock by making it somehow compulsory (admittedly, it could go the same way too, but I feel like the chance of either is 50/50 and we'll probably see both).

As far as I can tell, your proposal amounts to "let's not really change anything and make it so everyone has exactly what they had before". We're not changing anything by making requirements effectively the same and handing people whatever level they're supposed to be at based on KOs/TP alone. It's an entirely superficial change and it doesn't actually address any of the issues that TL7 is supposed to mitigate/solve.

I don't really care about the Novice Badge either way. I think it should probably cost a little more but I'm not going to push for that.

No retroactivity on reffed matches, but I also won't force people to level down. I'm not sure how I feel about the KO system. I like the principle of it, but in our discussions we repeatedly said "well maybe we should let other things count towards reqs" and came up with our proposed system because it was the simplest meaningful thing. I think though that we should incorporate coaching in some way, and value certain types of matches over others. The SP system would help that, but because of speed bonuses, we enter the messy field of "fast people level up faster" which is something we're trying to mitigate. I'd like to find something in between that but I can't figure out how to reconcile them off the top of my head.

Ubers really need to be restricted. If we have good reason to change it later, I'll look at it again, but for now, I'd rather be conservative and then liberalize later instead of having to take things away later.
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:38 AM   #44
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So I think one thing you need to answer is if there actually is a problem with people going through levels too fast. Because I don't think that happens at all. I think exactly the opposite happens, actually. I've been saying for a long time that taking ages to be able to use good pokemon isn't a great thing. "Postgame" for legends makes sense to me because you would expect to take ages to get legends. Charizard, not so much.

I do not think there is going to be any point in putting something above the TL7 Sneaze has proposed. Jeri, you have been here for what, ten years? If you didn't make TL7 without the least sweat there would be serious problems with whatever system there was.

And while we're on that subject, this was not discussed at all before it happened. I'm going to be blunt here: I understand that some things need to be discussed behind close doors in the LO forums. Something that affects the LOs least and everyone else most is not one of them. But I probably don't have to say this given the minor uproar this caused.

Anyway, I am fully in support of the referee system, especially if it's backed up by referees getting a little more power when it comes to dropping matches and stuff. Great idea, IMO.
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:47 AM   #45
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I agree with rangeet, in that I don't think people going through levels too fast is going to be a problem. Jeri if you guys want to make TL 7 a goal for yourself and some of the other veterans then simply make the requirements for that level higher. I feel like having the level requirements slightly lowered will actually just promote activity, and encourage trainers to stick with pasbl. As a newcomer it is kind of daunting that it could take years to get anywhere and I'm sure a lot of other people get this feeling when they join pasbl. This may be why we see a lot of newcomers drop off after just a few battles. All in all I guess I just agree with everything Snease said, I just feel like if your going to change acquisition levels you should also make a fair adjustment in trainer levels.
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:53 AM   #46
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I understand the desire for most "postgame" content for trainers who've been around forever but have to agree with Geet; you've been around about a decade. Someone reaching TL7 in a decade doesn't strike me as a problem. Taking so many pokemon out of peoples hands for such a long time isn't the way to go about postgame. As for the speed/ease of levelling issue, badge requirements fix that nicely imo. High levelled people will have earnt it. Also wouldn't object to badge requirements moving down a level, because then people can reach new!TL4 by buying one but need to win one to get new!TL5, and new!TL4 contains plenty of good enough mon for people to be able to knock over low levelled gyms.

More stuff to keep trainers who've been around forever engaged? Sure. But that's a separate issue to the level acquisitions spread we're messing with here, imo. Maybe punt up all the legend acquisitions a level whilst bringing the KO requirements down so the weakest tier of legends are now TL5 accessible (at 75 KO's) and the highest tier Ubers at TL8, whilst keeping the level acquisitions spread as proposed (with Dragonite and co making up TL7)? At any rate I would consider the current announcement (with some minor edits) to mostly address acquisitions, some reffing issues and peoples advancement speed. Consider "postgame" separately.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:24 AM   #47
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>I'm going to be blunt here: I understand that some things need to be discussed behind close doors in the LO forums. Something that affects the LOs least and everyone else most is not one of them.

Except this is something that was discussed in public, for a long time. This entire thing started as a community proposal.

We've engaged the community about these changes and most of what we instituted was something that was requested by the community. Nearly all of this was brought to LOs by someone in the community at some point and we did our jobs by constructing a ruleset and bringing it forward. Should we have run it by the community before posting it? Sure, maybe we should have. But this is not something that the community was entirely unaware of. And this is not something we're pushing on the community without any input at all, before or after the fact. This thread was made literally for the purpose of discussing issues with the system, which only started happening after everyone said "we don't get any say".

We go and make executive decisions and parse through the community input to figure out what we think is workable, and when we show you our version of what the community proposed, we get a load of shit about how we don't allow the community to have input on anything ever. And then we continue to get shit after we engage the community on these changes.

This is entitlement. I strongly considered resigning over this (and it's not the first time I've considered it) because of this very issue.

We cannot continue to be a productive community if we continue to act this way. I can't do my job effectively if you can't trust in me to do something that benefits the league as a whole. At some point, someone has to sit down and make these decisions.

Everything I have done in my time as LO has been to bring the community into the decision making process. I've done this for moves, I've done this for SCs, I've done this for pretty much every single rule change I've made, but they've all been abused and turned into agenda-pushing machines and places to have fights and air grudges. And then I get complaints that the community doesn't have enough say in things.

I'm not going to tell you to sit down and shut up and accept what you're given, but fighting every single little change made without notifying each and every one of you about the changes first just makes my life harder and doesn't improve anything.

So go ahead, make your changes, do whatever. But don't tell me that you're not being listened to because that is ALL I do is listen.

I'll respond to other shit later but I think we all need to have an attitude check if we want this to keep working. This was supposed to be a quick and easy change that was supposed to help the league and I'm sorry that people have become upset by it, but the way people have reacted to it have taken what should have been something civil and turned it into yet another source of toxic drama.

EDIT: Also I didn't realize that we said in the first post that you can't talk about the entire thing. That was an oversight on my part and I apologize for that.

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Old 09-10-2015, 10:45 AM   #48
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Okay Connor and I have cooked up an alternate proposal for TP/KOs

TL2: 10 KOs, 30 TP
TL3: 30 KOs, 75 TP
TL4: 50 KOs, 125 TP
TL5: 80 KOs, 200 TP
TL6: 120 KOs, 300 TP
TL7: 180 KOs, 420 TP
TL8: 240 KOs, 550 TP

We'd probably move legends somehow but I'm not sure how exactly.

EDIT: Rejiggered it to work with Sneasel's TP since that actually does work better with lower KOs

Last edited by Jerichi; 09-10-2015 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:57 AM   #49
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Okay, so I'm perfectly okay with the idea of implementing a TL8 so long as we don't bump any Acquisitions above TL7, because frankly if Connor can be here for two years and even at his speed have not reached it, we really shouldn't be putting any Pokemon THAT BLOODY FAR OUT OF REACH (this was literally one of the things I considered the most when I made the scale I proposed). The TP scale for TL7 and TL8 seems just slightly low to me, though. Maybe bump it to 450 and 600?
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:58 AM   #50
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I wouldn't change any of the level acquisitions if we implemented TL8.

I don't want to raise TP. Evening out the relationship between TP and KOs is the whole reason we started this in the first place and I don't want to go backwards on that.
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