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Old 09-16-2015, 09:14 PM   #151
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Volcarona does get Giga Drain-I remember a Volcarona using it in the 2015 VGC Masters Finals. Probably an event deal, but Giga Drain is nice for sunbug.
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Old 09-16-2015, 10:40 PM   #152
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Giga Drain is not going to help against a Rock-type sadly. It doesn't deal damage.
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Old 09-16-2015, 10:42 PM   #153
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Old 09-16-2015, 10:46 PM   #154
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@Stealthy

You're absolutely right in that Chesnaught and Conkeldurr are even more deserving of TL3 than Scrafty. I was hesitant to nominate Chesnaught because I was certain that it would be shot down because Breloom is TL3, while Conkeldurr I... honestly had mostly forgotten about. I would be more okay with Scrafty staying TL4 if one/both of those went down a peg. (Relatedly: Breloom. Say we move Chesnaught to TL3. Could it realistically be a TL2, or is it too strong for that? Would Breloom be a realistic fit for a TL that contains the likes of Mega-Heracross in terms of Fighting-types? I haven't used either so I have no idea on this)

So yeah, While I do think its comparable to some of the better TL3 mon, my point that it's probably about equal with the likes of Machoke has yet to be refuted, and I could give you another example or two of a comparable mon in TL3, I don't want to belabor the point further than we need to. I'll concede Scrafty if we take a hard look at Ches/Loom and Conk. Although I do think it's silly to try and shut down my argument by saying that Seismitoad would be outclassed in TL4, when it very clearly would have a niche (Quaggy isn't seeing Poison familiar or boosted Earthquake any time soon), but I digress.

Back on topic, I stand by that Hawlucha really ought to be TL3. As I said before, It got like 4 notable moves from tutors. Only one of which (Iron Head) hits one of its weaknesses (that it couldn't already hit) for SE damage. If it's a TL3 without tutors it's a TL3 with tutors, albeit a higher end one. In fact, let's go through the tutor moves:

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Bounce- Already had it.
Drain Punch- Nice, but Hawlucha already had Roost for Health Recovery.
Dual Chop- Um, it hits Dragons SE I guess?
Endeavor- Already had it.
Fire Punch- Hawlucha's STABs hit everything this hits. I guess it hits bug/steels?
Focus Punch- An alright attack, but Hawlucha really has better options imo.
Helping Hand- pfffffft
Iron Head- Probably the best thing Hawlucha got, but even this I don't think justifies pushing it up to play with the big boys like Emboar and Swampert.
Last Resort- heh
Low Kick- Super duper niche
Sky Attack- Already had it.
Snore- lool
Superpower- Why are you not using HJK? You should be using HJK.
Tailwind- Pretty nifty, but not really worth bumping it for.
Thunder Punch- Hits Flyings! Yaaaaaay! I mean, Rock offtype did that already, but it's still nice I guess.
Zen Headbutt- Um, it hits Poisons? Fightings are already hit by STAB, sooo...


So let me get this straight: You're telling me that Hawlucha was made good enough by what basically amounts to Iron Head, Tailwind, ThunderPunch, and Drain Punch, and some extra fluff that it needs to go from TL3 to TL4? I find that ridiculous. Hawlucha is definitely more on par with the likes of Gourgeist than the likes of Druddigon.
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:14 PM   #155
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I think you're really underestimating the utility of having diverse STAB. One of the reasons Psychics are boring and tactically really one-sided is that nearly all of their damaging STABs are identical. Some types like Fire have viable single typed 'mon like Rapidash because they have a diverse set of STAB moves to work off. Fighting is even better because nearly every Fighting move has a different use.

Want to trip up a foe? Low Kick. Want to deliver a huge hit while your foe fucks around? Focus Punch. Want a fast attack with huge damage? Superpower. Want to open the gap and heal yourself too without burning tons of energy? Drain Punch.

You're also underplaying the diversity that the Headbutts and Elemental Punches bring. Just because Hawlucha can't fight its weaknesses more effectively with them doesn't mean they're useless. Zen Headbutt is a great tool to use to clear mental blocks and is a nice option against fellow Fightings that might not car as much about Flying attacks. Thunder Punch is nice for Flying types since you're not always going to have enough Rock to do the job.

That said I think it would be fine at TL3. Its playstyle is really strange and I doubt it would dominate, but I don't think your argument holds much water.
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:46 PM   #156
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Hawlucha gets moves of plenty of different Types, and has the mobility to hunt things down and dance around, but it has a horrible Special movepool, and its support movepool is nothing special. It will be struggling at a ranged or supporting role. A Fighting Type can be physically reliant, but Hawlucha does not have the physical bulk. It needs to go physical, but it is small and light. It can only go so long before it is pinned or something, even if it gets Fighting Type bonuses for going physical and lifting things.

So, along with the other things mentioned, I think it fits better as a Trainer Level 3 than Trainer Level 4.

Although I suppose it does have Focus Blast, Stone Edge and X-Scissor as ranged moves.

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Old 09-17-2015, 02:37 PM   #157
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I remain iffy on Scrafty to TL3, but Hawlucha I can take. Changes as follows (which will be implemented now):

Polibros: 5 to 4
Gigalith: 4 to 3
Blissey: 6 to 5
Ambipom: 3 to 4
Pupitar: 3 to 2
Hawlucha: 4 to 3
Fireflies: 4 to 3
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Old 09-17-2015, 02:38 PM   #158
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In fairness Psychic would be a more interesting type if we completely overhauled its moves, but that's hard because of how tricky it is to translate its in game effects.
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Old 09-17-2015, 02:44 PM   #159
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We've already kinda done that though, sadly, but all the common things are either innately similar (Confusion, Psybeam) or are slight variations on each other (Psychic, Psyshock). There's already not much diversity to begin with and we've added interesting effects to the few that can possibly have interesting effects (i.e. Extrasensory and Psywave) but it doesn't really change the fact that Psychic moves are all mental energy blasts.

But that's getting off-topic. Changes are fine.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:30 PM   #160
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I think you're really underestimating the utility of having diverse STAB. One of the reasons Psychics are boring and tactically really one-sided is that nearly all of their damaging STABs are identical. Some types like Fire have viable single typed 'mon like Rapidash because they have a diverse set of STAB moves to work off. Fighting is even better because nearly every Fighting move has a different use.

Want to trip up a foe? Low Kick. Want to deliver a huge hit while your foe fucks around? Focus Punch. Want a fast attack with huge damage? Superpower. Want to open the gap and heal yourself too without burning tons of energy? Drain Punch.

You're also underplaying the diversity that the Headbutts and Elemental Punches bring. Just because Hawlucha can't fight its weaknesses more effectively with them doesn't mean they're useless. Zen Headbutt is a great tool to use to clear mental blocks and is a nice option against fellow Fightings that might not car as much about Flying attacks. Thunder Punch is nice for Flying types since you're not always going to have enough Rock to do the job.

That said I think it would be fine at TL3. Its playstyle is really strange and I doubt it would dominate, but I don't think your argument holds much water.
Your points are taken, but I would point out that High Jump Kick is both quite powerful and often reffed as being very fast, and that combined with Hawlucha's SC making it better at using the move means that, at least in my opinion, the likes of Focus Punch and Superpower have far less merit on Hawlucha than most 'mon. Also, Hawlucha already got Low Sweep which iirc trips foes without being weight reliant and therefore turns Low Kick into a pretty niche move? As for offtype, Zen Headbutt admittedly is nice for clearly status, but Toxicroak and Terrakion are literally the only fighting types hit harder by Psychic moves than Flying moves, so that point is moot. And the point that Fire Punch brings literally nothing to the table bar the Bug/Steels getting hit hard remains valid.

But I'm belaboring and digressing again. Changes look good to me. Assuming Chesnaught/Conkeldurr that Stealthy brought up have been decided as not worth dropping?
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Old 09-18-2015, 02:55 AM   #161
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I think there is merit in not dropping Chesnaught. Breloom in no conceivable universe belongs in 2, so Chesnaught dropping to 3 leaves two Pokemon with a unique typing in the same TL - and Chesnaught is definitely the better of the two.

Conkeldurr I dunno. I'd have to check.
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Old 09-19-2015, 12:16 AM   #162
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I think you're really underestimating the utility of having diverse STAB. One of the reasons Psychics are boring and tactically really one-sided is that nearly all of their damaging STABs are identical. Some types like Fire have viable single typed 'mon like Rapidash because they have a diverse set of STAB moves to work off. Fighting is even better because nearly every Fighting move has a different use.

Want to trip up a foe? Low Kick. Want to deliver a huge hit while your foe fucks around? Focus Punch. Want a fast attack with huge damage? Superpower. Want to open the gap and heal yourself too without burning tons of energy? Drain Punch.
I do frequently raise the point that Sort By Type isn't the best indicator of if a movepool is good or not. Having the ability to deliver consistent damage and take advantage of gaps in your opponent's orders and ability to defend can occasionally be way more important!

It's why Hydreigon is not an ASB mainstay (it could be, I guess, but I don't hear as much about it as I do about Clefable/Gengar/Dragonite/Snorlax/etc.) despite having an ASB wet dream for a movepool. Dragonite's pool is shallower than Hydreigon's in terms of offtype, yes, but it has a lot more OPTIONS.

Re: Psychic being a boring type, I definitely agree...but the type lacks high-powered offensive moves AND lacks the resistances necessary to narrow their opponents' options down enough to play stronger defensively.

I can think of a few changes that I'd love to make given the chance but etc. etc. not the time etc. etc. not the place etc. etc. etc.
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Old 09-19-2015, 02:49 AM   #163
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Hydreigon is not a mainstay for the reasons you suggest but actually no Dragonite has better off type because it can use more of it from range. Hydreigon is also not a mainstay because its prevos aren't great where Dratini and Dragonair are excellent.
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Old 09-24-2015, 06:58 PM   #164
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So, since there's been no activity here for days, have we sorted out all the problems and bumps now? I'm personally waiting for an official statement that takes off the current stay we have on the changes, but there may be one or two more bumps people might bring up, so I wanted to make sure everyone was done speaking their bits.
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:39 PM   #165
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Acquisitions as they stand right now officially into effect as of now. You have a fortnight to make any changes necessary to your squad. Mega Stone amnesty likewise lasts for another fortnight, and is a general one now. After that point, you will be pulled up if your squad is still not legal.
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Old 09-25-2015, 06:43 PM   #166
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