Online Competitive Pokemon Battle Showdown Happy Fun Times

[Heather]

Nice Job, Clone! I was rooting for you the whole time, as nerve wracking as it was.

[Sparkbeat]

Battle against a pretty good UU players from a few days ago

I decided to maybe possibly to suspects this time around because I had nothing better to do then, and I managed to throw together a pretty solid DeoSharp team that got me to number 1 for a grand total of about an hour before I started losing a few times. If I decide to continue and go for reqs I'd probably vote to ban Deoxys-D, and probably vote ban on S as well. They're both pretty broken, and DeoSharp teams are so simple to throw together and really unhealthy for the metagame based on the fact they can tear trough any type of team if they're solidly built.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Sparkbeat

If I decide to continue and go for reqs I'd probably vote to ban Deoxys-D, and probably vote ban on S as well. They're both pretty broken, and DeoSharp teams are so simple to throw together and really unhealthy for the metagame based on the fact they can tear trough any type of team if they're solidly built.

Explain to me why this is not an accurate and fair rephrasing:

If I decide to continue and go for reqs I'd probably vote to ban Talonflame, and probably vote ban on Aegislash as well. They're both pretty broken, and TalonSlash teams are so simple to throw together and really unhealthy for the metagame based on the fact they can tear trough any type of team if they're solidly built.

For that matter, explain to me why we're banning Deoxys forms for being able to slice through the metagame like butter when Smogon's own OU ranking thread from Spring 2014, moderated heavily by the staff, lists Aegislash as S-class but Deoxys-D as A+ class (one rung below)? And the descriptions of the two classes, too:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

Even if what you've said about Deoxys-D holds true, doesn't that simply mean that he should be graduated from "A+ rank" to "S rank"? That, if we are to ban him, we ought to first ban any and all Pokémon we'd established to be S rank before him? It doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't sound like the approach of a man who's seeking a fair and balanced metagame, to say that we ought to ban things because they can be slapped onto any team and do well yet at the same time that we ought to give a free pass to the very best examples of this.

Not that I'm asking for Aegislash to be banned either. I just don't agree with banning some but not all Pokémon on the basis of a shared property.

[Jerichi]

Hannibal was from Carthage.

[rotomotorz]

Originally Posted by Sparkbeat

If I decide to continue and go for reqs I'd probably vote to ban Deoxys-D, and probably vote ban on S as well. They're both pretty broken, and DeoSharp teams are so simple to throw together and really unhealthy for the metagame based on the fact they can tear trough any type of team if they're solidly built.

You wot mate? I have no idea why you think DeoSharp is in any way broken. DeoD is not hard to get rid of, DeoS is slightly more annoying but still fairly easy to KO, and Bisharp can be manipulated so hard as without Defiant boost its not that good

[Sparkbeat]

In the current viability thread, both forms are S-Rank along with Charizard-X, Aegislash, Thundurus-I, and Landorus-I. Unlike Aegislash, who does have a few clear cut counters and plenty of checks, the only Pokemon I've found on the ladder than can undoubtedly keep Deoxys-D from getting at least one layer of hazards up are Magic Bounce users, who are easily set up on by other members of the team, making them more hazardous than helpful. Deoxys-S with a Mental Herb can win due to the speed difference, but it'd almost always rather run a Focus Sash. A well played Magic Coat user can stop them, but then it turns into a game of 50/50 guessing which, in my opinion, is never a good thing for the metagame. Due to the heavy pressure these teams give off, using Rapid Spin or Defog always runs the risk of either allowing something to set up or Bisharp to switch in and get to +2, leaving Quagsire as the only common things that can safely switch in. Even then, you're eating a Knock Off and losing your Leftovers. While Deo-S has a threatening offensive set along with the hazards set, Deo-D also packs many alternate moves to beat would be counters. For example, instead of Thunder Wave/Seismic Toss, I chose to run Counter to beat U-Turning Scizor, Non-Band Crunching Ttars, and some Knock Off Bisharp. For me, when I ask whether I think something should be banned, I look at these things. Does the Pokemon create a standard team archetype in the metagame that makes it even more bland? Both formes do this. Rain teams of Gen 5 didn't fit this criteria because the only consistent member was Politoed and you could run Offense, Balance, or Stall with it. With these forms, they primarily make DeoSharp offense, and a single team (DeoSharp / Thund-I / Land-I, Aegi / M-Mawile) has been running wild on the ladder. Can the Pokemon be countered, without playing 50/50's by something that isn't dead weight? No. Can the Pokemon get through these normal counters? In Deoxys-S's case, yes, because it can run a coverage move in the fourth slot or an all out offensive set. There's probably some things I've missed, but I won't remember them for a while. No idea why, but whenever I do anything I come back later and realize I forgot to mention certain things or I needed to word something differently.

As for DeoSharp being easy to beat, not really. The DeoSharp portion of the team is just to apply pressure to the other team. Deo gets hazards up, and Sharp makes the opponent iffy about getting rid of them. The other four members take advantage of the hazards on the field by applying crazy pressure whether by breaking apart stall cores or sweeping late game. With Deoxys almost always getting at least rocks up, most teams won't let you clear those hazards, since if you do, you're either getting swept or losing your only counter to another Pokemon on the team.

[Heather]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

Hannibal was from Carthage.

Sadly I replaced Hannibal with Vlad Vladikoff the Mandibuzz. If you want an explanation, ask MtG about how they basically swept me with it, as embarassing as that is.

EDIT: Clearly, allowing 3 Baton pass Mons had just made people make their Baton Pass teams even more painful and annoying and buttheadish in general. Sure, i probs goofed ten times in this match, but this is ridiculous.

EDIT 2: Sgt. Frog pulls the win out his arse.

EDIT 3: Not posting a link because first turn forfeit is boring but I use Clone's mega Chomp to roast a Ferro...person immediately forfeits.

[phoopes]

Myles, I must question the decision to keep Earthquaking even though the Scolipede was using Iron Defense. You had Fire Blast in your moveset and that seems like the much better choice there to me. Live and learn, I guess.

[Talon87]

I don't mind responding to other portions of your post as well, but this particular comment stands out to me as it's something I've heard many proponents of bans expressing.

Originally Posted by Sparkbeat

but then it turns into a game of 50/50 guessing which, in my opinion, is never a good thing for the metagame.

If you don't like coin flips, then you don't like coin flips. Fair enough. But the thing is, Pokémon is, has always been, and might very well forever be nothing more than a glorified game of Paper Rock Scissors (which itself is nothing more than a "coin flip with ties"). At the end of the day, it is always a guessing game.

"Will he switch, in which case I should do A? Or will he stay put, in which case I should do B?"

"Will he use Attack A, in which case I should answer with A'? Or will he use Attack B, in which case I should answer with B'?"

"Is he running Item A? Or is he running Item B?"

"Is he running Ability A? Or is he running Ability B?"

These are all, individually as well as in aggregate, questions which boil down to the fundamental PRS question of "Will he throw Rock, in which case I should throw Paper? Will he throw Paper, in which case I should throw Scissors? Or will he throw Scissors, in which case I should throw Rock?"

So if you don't like 50/50 chances in the meta, then I ask you: why are you even playing Pokémon in the first place? The game has clearly, from top to bottom, not been designed for people who get nauseous at the sight of elements of chance. The game's design oozes chance from every orifice. I'm not saying that you're wrong to dislike 50/50 chances in games. That is an entirely subjective assessment and one you're wholly entitled to. I'm just asking you why, if you do feel that way, you feel that it is better to systematically strip the chance from a chance-heavy game than it would be to just pick up a different game for a hobby instead. Because you're not going to rid Pokémon of its 50/50 chances just by banning a Deoxys-D or a Genesect. You're not going to rid Pokémon of all its 50/50 chances without creating an entirely different game.

[Sparkbeat]

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying, and it's actually a reason why I don't do comp as enthusiastically as a did a while ago. I probably should've said "a game I'd want to play" instead of metagame in that statement. I used to get pretty mad when a luck based thing didn't go my way, but after I took a break from comp, and now that I'm focusing more on ASB, I've pretty much fully realized just how luck based Pokemon is, so that stuff doesn't mess with me nearly as much as before. If I do get reqs, that won't be my primary, or even a real secondary reason, for wanted to ban the two, but I can't deny that it is a personal preference of mine.

[Talon87]

Cruel. (VGC 2014, 7 turns)

Spoiler: show

After falling from my peak (somewhere in the mid-1300s) to as low as the upper 1000s , I've made my way back to 1290. Hoping to get back into the 1300s soon.

[rotomotorz]

For some reason I have the dire need to use Cryogonal

[Rangeet]

Finally hit 1500 properly!

I'm really surprised that I'm doing so well with a team I kind of whipped up in ten minutes ages ago!

[Talon87]

My match against user theorymon testing (VGC 2014)

See replay for commentary.

[rotomotorz]

Ha!

[Red Panda]

Saw on PS today that Swagger was banned through Ubers.

[DaveTheFishGuy]

>Banning stuff from Ubers

...this is the beginning of the end.

[Fallen Icarus]

This is not a new thing though... I mean both the Moody, Sleep, Evasion, and the OHKO clause are in effect in Ubers as of now...

[Talon87]

My favorite counter to the claim that "Übers is not a tier! " is the fact that things get banned from Übers as well.

[rotomotorz]

Originally Posted by Red Panda

Saw on PS today that Swagger was banned through Ubers.

What kind of madness...

[Heather]

Oh God. Brace yourselves, the end is coming.

[Jerichi]

Finally getting back into LC... and I choked hard right in the first battle. I neglected to save the replay, but long story short I got a bunch of momentum early on by outpredicting a switch into Cottonee with my Foongus... and then immediately lost it all by stupidly switching my Abra into Pawniard and following that with Snubull, who triggered Defiant with Intimidate, which caused me to choke and drop the match right there.

It was... not encouraging.

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

Finally getting back into LC... and I choked hard right in the first battle. I neglected to save the replay, but long story short I got a bunch of momentum early on by outpredicting a switch into Cottonee with my Foongus... and then immediately lost it all by stupidly switching my Abra into Pawniard and following that with Snubull, who triggered Defiant with Intimidate, which caused me to choke and drop the match right there.

It was... not encouraging.

I did that a lot with my re-introduction to OU. Mega Manectric can OHKO (or just about OHKO) Landorus, Lando-T, Gliscor, and Garchomp, so I'd make the mistake to switch Mega Manectric in and consequently lose it to EQ or Earth Power.

[Jerichi]

I really need to stop thinking that Snubbul can switch into Paniward, because it really isn't the case at all. Defiant consistently fucks me over and then I realize my mistake and run or get clobbered.

I also really need to find a replacement for Abra that can counter other Abras/Missy. It might end up being Pawniard but I want to find something that's a little less one-trick-pony.

[rotomotorz]

lolwut? (VGC 2014)