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Old 09-22-2014, 06:36 PM   #3276
Heather
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They know what they are doing, yes, but they don't necessarily know the 100% best way to make something work in most cases, and make it Worlds material. Fad Pokemon end up this way with many, even vets aren't immune. Hell, no way could I play Pachi like Se Jun does (Not that I'm a vet). So why try so hard to imitate something I'll never get down like I need to in order to to really succeed when I can create my own little guy and create his own niche which I know 100%?
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Old 09-22-2014, 06:48 PM   #3277
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The difference between what I said and what you're saying, Myles, is that ...
  • the people I am playing, at my relatively mediocre level of VGC play, are by no means Worlds material. Like, matter-of-factly: if they were, they wouldn't be down here at the upper 1300s, lower 1400s getting their asses handed to them by me.
  • but you're saying that no one, not even other pro players, can ever hope to match Sejun in his Pachi wisdom
If my earlier post didn't make it clear, I'll restate it here: I disagree with this. And thus, in this specific regard, I side with what blaze is trying to say to you. There is no reason to believe that just because Sejun Park popularized a certain way of playing Pachirisu that he is the best user of the strategy and/or of the creature. Someone else can come along, someone who is also Worlds material, and perform with Pachirisu better than Sejun did.

Think of it this way ...
  • England popularized the universally-agreed upon modern form of soccer (a.k.a. association football) but is by no means the best in the world at the sport anymore.
  • Indiana popularized the modern face of basketball yet it's African and East European giants who are conquering the sport, not white bread Hoosiers under 6'0" in height.
  • The United States may have invented baseball, but Japan has made the sport its own; and Cuba and other Caribbean countries are the ones giving us the Albert Pujols who dominate the sport today.
  • The board game Go likely originated in China. And for a time Japan was the best in the world, and not only that but they revolutionized the game in the early 20th century. But today it's generally agreed upon that the Koreans, not the Chinese nor the Japanese but the Koreans, are the strongest Go players in the world.
So on and so on and so forth. Just because someone pioneers a strategy does not give him lifetime dibs on being the best executor of that strategy.
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Old 09-22-2014, 06:58 PM   #3278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
They know what they are doing, yes, but they don't necessarily know the 100% best way to make something work in most cases, and make it Worlds material.


Most people are Worlds material anyways, but let's ignore that for a moment. If everyone was Worlds material, would this still apply? I don't think anyone, not even Se Jun, knows what the best thing to do is in 100% of situations. This isn't Chess, Pokemon has a lot of uncertainties.

Quote:
Fad Pokemon end up this way with many, even vets aren't immune. Hell, no way could I play Pachi like Se Jun does (Not that I'm a vet). So why try so hard to imitate something I'll never get down like I need to in order to to really succeed when I can create my own little guy and create his own niche which I know 100%?
Maybe Pachirisu is something that your team needs and nothing else fills that niche? Just because Se Jun created his Pachirisu does not mean he got it off the bat immediately. He has been playing with it for six months, according to Talon, and this is a Worlds champion. This implies that you generally need a lot of time to get used to how something works. You can't just pick something up and expect it to work. You need practice. Let me give you a personal example:

Aegislash @ Spooky Plate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Sp.Atk / 8 Atk
Nature: Quiet
-Shadow Ball
-Shadow Sneak
-Sacred Sword
-King's Shield

This is my personal favorite Aegislash set. I don't remember if you were around during the time I started using it, but at first, I honestly didn't have a fucking clue what I was doing. I had always put Aegislash down as a "gimmick SD sweeper" so I had never used it. I knew mixed Aegislash was the way to go but the only mixed Aegislash I had used was a Autotomatize one that myself and Lost created, which was a very poor set. So this set I had issues with at first; I honestly almost dropped it.

Two months later and I'm playing it like a pro. It was almost always the MVP of my matches, since it could easily take two or more Pokemon out when played well. You can't play it like Lefties Aegislash either, its a little more conserved in return for being a more powerful cannon. Now, did I know everything about the Pokemon to the point that I was better than the one who had initially made the set? It's possible, even though its unlikely. I had only been using it for two months, the guy had at least another four or five on me. But was I playing it as well as him? Probably. Six months of practice is one thing, and had Aegislash not been banned that's probably what I would have now. But to assume that a set isn't better than one you made is wrong. Se Jun might find that there is something better than Pachirisu down the road, like say Emolga. Maybe its someone else's Emolga set. Maybe someone else makes a better Pachirisu set and he uses that one instead. But to say that Se Jun is the only one who is going to know 100% a Pokemon's niche just because he created it is wrong, and to say that trying to use someone else's set over one of your own means you aren't going to be as good is also wrong.
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Old 09-22-2014, 07:59 PM   #3279
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The six months claim was a safety figure pulled out of the air and/or the recesses of my mind. I don't intend it to be taken as an actual, hard fact claim. I said "six months" because it's nearly the end of September and so if we rewind six months that takes us into March, prime territory for pre-Korean nationals which would've likely been held in April or May. Also because I feel like I remember reading that, that Sejun began to experiment with Pachirisu around this time.

I can tell you this: it is both common knowledge within the VGC community as well as publicly admitted by Sejun that Pachirisu is not his first flirtation with a Follow Me user. He previously used Magmar in earlier formats (I assume holding Eviolite) but couldn't use it in this format because lol KalosDex only. So while his time spent with the specific creature is likely to be one year or less, his time spent with the strategy of Follow Me and similar redirection tactics goes back years.

IIRC, I read somewhere in the immediate wake of Worlds 2014 that Pachirisu was on the books before Sejun began to use it. (And I feel like I remember reading that he began to use it in early 2014, not in 2013 or earlier, but again don't hold me to task for that statement.) But at the same time, despite being on the books, Pachirisu was on very few radars before Worlds 2014 and it can be rightly said that Sejun's becoming champion in no small part thanks to Pachirisu's efficacy is what placed the squirrel on every person's map who was not already a hardcore VGCer. (You, me, everyone on UPN, etc.)
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Old 09-22-2014, 08:22 PM   #3280
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I love seeing newbs use Pachi on Showdown as I beat its shit in with Golurk
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Old 09-22-2014, 08:34 PM   #3281
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Your Aegislash example reminds me of how he still stars on my serious team on PB, not that I got there much because OMs are amazing and PB has none. But it reminds me of how it was part of my first serious attempts to ladder with stuff that wasn't Karen Team swill. And by god did that take me ages to fully get in the swing of. And no that's not a pun to me. I don't pronounce it with a long A at the start. Few months later I can actually go for a few rounds without running back to mama KS and being set up bait. You see it took me a long time. And sure, I eventually got it. But by the time I did i could have probably made a player for myself (Heck I DID for a long time, I did have Hannibal to boost Pac Man.) Using that I slipped I to much quicker because I knew the niche it was supposed to have because I thought it up. It was awkward at first getting it to work, but it wasn't months of trial and error as learning Aegislash was. It's not easy to do either way, and sure these are paltry examples compared to making a Se Jun Mascot, but it's still proportional: As long as it takes to learn someone else's it's possible to have created one of your own relatively sooner if not significantly sooner, of course depending on the fact that you're thinking "undervalued gem" and not an outright crapmon.
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Old 09-22-2014, 08:37 PM   #3282
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I love Chatot but unfortunately there is no way to make it good. It's a combination of bad stats, movepool that sorely lacks certain essential moves, and even worse stats. Not to mention its bafflingly pointless ability.

If Chatot got some stat boosts to let it actually play at a competitive level, then we'd be somewhere with it. Just a 15 point increase in speed would rocket it into a good position in a variety of teams. Right now, it's just too fragile with too limited usage. There are tons of things that hit harder, go faster, and last longer, even if most of those things don't have Boomburst.

Chatot needs to be able to outspeed things to be good at what it does. If it doesn't, then it doesn't do anything because it's too busy getting OHKOd by walls.
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Old 09-22-2014, 08:39 PM   #3283
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Shuckle your randomness is oddly appreciated.

Also Sticky Web isn't a bad idea in that case, at least for Chatot. Bringing it in on something that can't hurt you, like Ferrothorn, Sub up, then either go for Chatter or Nasty Plot. Chatter is really silly.
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Old 09-22-2014, 08:44 PM   #3284
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Chatter, silly as it is, can be pretty potent if you've sold your soul to the RNG. Boosting it with Nasty Plot is a must though, as it is for Minun and it's Thunderbolt doing much aside from looking pretty. Chatot wasn't the best example, I admit, though I do have plenty of respect for him being a Gen 4 mon.

But if we're talking SE Jun mascots anyway, it just occurred to me that we might get better results if we work together to make on for UPN as a whole., with everyone testing it out and learning it, making changes as we see it's weaknesses, and all that.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:07 PM   #3285
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Chatter has a 100% confuse chance this gen. The only way you ain't getting a confuse off is if you try on something with Own Tempo or Aroma Veil.

Really the problem with Chatot is EVERYTHING DOES ITS JOB BETTER OMG.

Also I go to "last unread" so sometimes if discussions span multiple pages I get confused. Whoooops.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:11 PM   #3286
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To be honest you are missing out on Chatot's niche: Chatter. Chatter is what makes Chatot stand out from literally everything else, since its a damaging STAB Confuse Ray. Literally no other Pokemon gets it. Now does that redeem Chatot in some way? No, it probably doesn't. Like you say, Chatot doesn't have much bulk and its speed is pretty poor. But the key is in knowing how to fix those things.

Quote:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chatot: 114-134 (38.9 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
...of course I was under the impression that Chatot's Substitute's could take a Power Whip but hey, we can't all be right.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:16 PM   #3287
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If I folded a paper crane it could probably take a hit better than Chatot.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:25 PM   #3288
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Turns out you need a spread of 160 HP / 252 Def / 96 Speed with an Bold nature to have your subs not broken by Ferrothorn's Power Whip.

Might as well just run Heat Wave.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:30 PM   #3289
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If you're trying to use Chatot to bust Ferrothorn you have t heard of Clone's MegaChomp. Fire Blast smashes it Unboosted, and kills Skarmory too.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:34 PM   #3290
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To be fair the "Chatot beating Ferrothorn!" comments were kinda in jest. I would never run the spread given, its really bad. It only gives you 363 Speed under Sticky Web and you honestly never want to be under 400.
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Old 09-22-2014, 09:48 PM   #3291
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Literally no other Pokemon gets it.
Not even Smeargle gets it!
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:00 PM   #3292
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Altaria

Some lucky hax on my side wins me the game \o/

I'm out of my slump again!
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:29 PM   #3293
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Turn 2 (your hax benefit) was canceled out perfectly by Turn 47 (his hax benefit). But then yeah, the critical hit on Umbreon and the flinch on Groudon were each helpful. Especially the one on Umbreon. Yeesh. >.< That little sucker just wouldn't faint, would he!?

Also, 1900s, man. I should try to break 1900. :o Good job on getting back there so swiftly!
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Old 09-23-2014, 12:14 AM   #3294
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You thought that Umbreon was hard to kill? The only thing holding it back from being a mega wall of death was/still is the Evasion clause.
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Old 09-23-2014, 08:26 AM   #3295
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I still find it funny that Evasion is still banned considering we have -- accuracy Whirlwind and Roar now.
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Old 09-23-2014, 08:45 AM   #3296
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I still find it funny that Evasion is still banned considering we have -- accuracy Whirlwind and Roar now.
Baton Pass the evasion boosts to someone who cannot be phazed out (e.g. Cradily).

That stated, I haven't seen people attempt evasion boosts very much in VGC 2014. For the most part, I think it's simply too unreliable.
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Old 09-23-2014, 09:23 AM   #3297
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Well in VGC there is a match-time limit and Evasion pokes typically stall.

Probably shouldn't have won this. ;;

As much as part of me was cheering at the end of the match, omg I felt so bad. I had been playing well and now I know that Latias can take a Crunch from Sharpedo, but holy crap if that isn't just the worst outcome for him.
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Old 09-23-2014, 09:56 AM   #3298
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To be fair, none of your thunderbolts or ice beams paralyzed or froze before then. He probably would have had trouble getting so much momentum with Grumpig if Grumpig had gotten status'd.
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Old 09-23-2014, 01:00 PM   #3299
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Old 09-23-2014, 01:05 PM   #3300
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omg SubFlail I nearly died
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