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Old 09-26-2015, 08:15 PM   #101
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Lil' Bluey

So apparently September 26 is Batman Day, which led me to this interesting read.

Now I'm sad again. So many kid sidekick feels...

I would really love to see a faithful adaptation of this story though. Talon in Batman vs. Robin was kinda similar, but doesn't really focus on deconstructing Batman. Apparently Wrath showed up in The Batman, sporting his own young partner named Scorn. In this version the two were brothers so it's a little less gruesome than outright child abuse, but their fate is even more depressing since Joker gasses them into insanity for threatening to reveal Batman and Robin's identities. Jesus fuck.
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Old 09-26-2015, 11:38 PM   #102
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I dislike "The Epilogue" a lot. I felt it betrayed the central idea of Batman Beyond for a garden variety cliche.
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Old 09-27-2015, 12:06 AM   #103
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I dislike "The Epilogue" a lot. I felt it betrayed the central idea of Batman Beyond for a garden variety cliche.
I still have yet to see the full episode, but from what I know it doesn't really bother me that much. Terry may be Bruce's biological son on paper but it was purely a coincidence that he ended up on the same path. It does show the corruption and lengths Cadmus would go to in order to maintain control over superheroes, considering Waller even wanted to have Terry's parents assassinated to reproduce the same circumstances that made Bruce become Batman.

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Old 09-27-2015, 12:33 AM   #104
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It bothers me a heck of a lot as it sacrifices Batman Beyond's entire concept just to re-iterate a point about Cadmus, to appease fanboys who disliked the BB concept to begin with, and to undermine the Terry's accomplishments.

Batman Beyond is largely about Terry, but it's also about Bruce Wayne letting go. Letting go is the last step in Bruce's character development, since vengeance has defined his entire life, and he's no longer able to exact it. He even sees himself as Batman. To pass on the mantle is equivalent, then, to giving up on his own identity and who he is.

Making Terry Bruce's son makes it easier for Bruce to hold on to that sense of vengeance, since humans instinctively understand that their children will carry their own mindsets. If Bruce had died and never knew Terry was his son, I could accept that. But he was still alive against all odds and learned it, which essentially prevented him from fully maturing as a character.

I also dislike it as it frames Terry's accomplishments as merely a function of Wayne's influence, and a matter of destiny outside of his control. There's nothing worse than taking a character who clearly demonstrates that he creates his own future, and saying that he was a pawn of fate the whole time. Amanda Waller implied as much by pointing out that Project Batman Beyond failed, but Terry became Batman and Bruce's heir anyway, as if it was the call of his genes that lead to it. Such is dissonant and upsetting.
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Old 09-27-2015, 12:55 AM   #105
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I saw it as Terry coming to terms with the fact that while his fate was initially planned, it wasn't sealed. Ultimately it ended up being his own choice and no one else's.

You do bring up a good point about Bruce. It does muddle things a bit in that direction since he learned the truth at some point. It was still after the fact of Terry's recruitment though. I dunno, I'd still like to think Bruce acknowledges Terry as his own man, especially after the events of RotJ. I like the line he tells Terry at the end: "It's not Batman that makes you worthwhile; it's the other way around. Never tell yourself anything different." Seemed like a sincere recognition to me.
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Old 09-27-2015, 03:38 AM   #106
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I agree, Dopple, but given that it is canon I'm prepared to accept it in the interests of fanboying a future Robin.
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Old 09-27-2015, 04:07 AM   #107
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I didn't even remember that. I'm on Team Doppel for sure for this one. That plot twist reeks of shallow, uninspired writing that additionally might have been meant to titillate fans (or as Doppel argues, appease haters) who thought it'd be grand to have the mantle passed down from father to son, who lamented that Bruce had left no biological heirs, etc.
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Old 09-27-2015, 04:32 AM   #108
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I don't deny it's a dumb plot development/desperate backpedal by the writers, but within universe I'm fine with it being canon. Mostly because it makes no sense otherwise for Terry and his brother to have dark hair when both parents are redheads. ...Unless the wife really was cheating (since suspicion is what supposedly led to the divorce). *shrug*
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Old 09-27-2015, 05:29 AM   #109
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Double-posting but to clarify my stance on the Robin argument:

I'm still rather against the idea of a future Robin for the reason that endangering kids' lives is unacceptable, period. Terry's already 16 as opposed to 12 or 13, so there's a little leeway there (though still questionable). Bruce should have learned his lesson though about taking on young sidekicks, and Terry even takes a harsh stab at the tragedy in "Epilogue", so it's clear he hasn't forgotten it.

In the comics, Tim Drake forced himself upon Bruce because he saw Batman needed a Robin to keep him stable after Jason's death. (And Damian, despite being 10, was trained by the League of Assassins and was basically dumped on Bruce as his son. Hard for a man like him to to know what else to do with a bloodthirsty boy who wants to follow in his father's footsteps.) Terry has not experienced that kind of loss/failing as a mentor, and the answer should be for him not to expose that potential danger in the first place. Plus he himself grew up without a Batman to look up to, so I think he should be able to deny any fanboys (or girls). Maybe he could use a partner (read: partner) to watch his back when Bruce finally kicks the bucket (there was a nice moment in one of the eps where Bruce was telling him a story of how he trusted Robin to save him from peril; it's unclear which one he was talking about but regardless the fact he was comfortable sharing that seemed like a good indication of bonding with his current junior), but I do not want to see him toting another prepubescent around to be a giant target - physically and emotionally. (Besides Max could probably fill in Bruce's role when he's gone as full-on Oracle in the Batcave.)

I love the idea of a Bat Family in the context of giving the cold, hardened Bruce Wayne love and support and people to care about (who also share his spirit for crimefighting). But I fully recognize its dysfunctionality, and that's part of what makes it such a fascinating subject for me. It is a moral conflict and a mistake, but one that at least provides some benefits to both parties.

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Old 09-27-2015, 06:28 AM   #110
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Oh hey yeah they could just make the little brother Robin. Have him get mixed up in the splicer thing, end up a changed man, taken on as a super hero to help him stay right.
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Old 09-27-2015, 10:14 AM   #111
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Oh hey yeah they could just make the little brother Robin. Have him get mixed up in the splicer thing, end up a changed man, taken on as a super hero to help him stay right.
That is a possibility. Like Damian, it is hard to deny blood, and Matt does already idolize Batman. In practical terms, even if he wanted to Terry can't just adopt orphans off the street willy-nilly. (Unless he inherits Bruce's estate; I suppose he'd have to in order to maintain access to the Batcave and technology. ...Now I wonder who else is in Bruce Wayne's will at this point - if anyone. *shot*)

Does he really have to go through splicing though? =< (Why are we even discussing inflicting damage on more children omfg. I know he expressed interest in it but Damian with superpowers was bad enough.) I think I'd prefer a scenario where someone targets Matt as a way of getting to Batman, and Terry agrees to teach him so he can defend himself. A sort of Robin reversal, as it were. If he's going to end up a "boy hostage" either way due to his preexisting connection to Terry, may as well give him the tools to fight.

As an aside, "Splicers" is another ep I remember making an impression on me when young. While it didn't scare me, there was another ep I recalled while watching that creeped the fuck out of me: the one where a company head downloaded himself into a program and wanted to take over his son's body so he can continue running things. *shudder* There does seem to a theme of not being able to let go...
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:57 PM   #112
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Man thinking about Bruce's end-of-life affairs is bumming me out again. I wonder how many times he's had to change his will over the years... (He had to have written Alfred out at least.) Being prepared to die at any time I'm sure he had one drafted from the beginning. There was a tie-in comic where Tim was trying to save Batman's life after being poisoned and went to Ivy and Harley for help, and Harley joked that if the B Man died on the bright side Robin would get all his stuff. I doubt he or Dick would want anything from him now (plus Dick is already pretty well-off), but still. Would they even accept anything of sentimental value... Dick did leave behind a jacket with his initials (and I'm convinced the sweater vest Tim was wearing in Knight Time was a hand-me-down from him *shot*).

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Old 09-27-2015, 09:33 PM   #113
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My all-time favourite Batman Beyond episode was the one where Bruce was hearing hallucinations, and at the end of the episode he explained he was never fooled at once because the voice in his head referred to him as "Bruce". Terry asked, "Well, what do you call yourself...oh."

I felt like BB and TNBA moved away a bit from how Batman was in The Animated Series, but that quote felt like a throw back to a decision made in time immemorial.
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Old 09-27-2015, 10:46 PM   #114
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My all-time favourite Batman Beyond episode was the one where Bruce was hearing hallucinations, and at the end of the episode he explained he was never fooled at once because the voice in his head referred to him as "Bruce". Terry asked, "Well, what do you call yourself...oh."

I felt like BB and TNBA moved away a bit from how Batman was in The Animated Series, but that quote felt like a throw back to a decision made in time immemorial.
I like that too in terms of defining how Bruce sees himself. It reminds me of the episode "Perchance to Dream", which was a pretty interesting look into his psyche and how committed to his cause he is but from a normal perspective he'd be (rightfully) regarded as batshit crazy (pardon the pun).

Bruce's characterization in TNBA on pisses me off for just how callous he became over the course. He may be obsessed but he had a heart, clearly caring about his partners and helping criminals get their lives back together. At some point he just seemed to stop giving a shit and it makes me sad. This scene hurts so much in retrospect for both his relationships with Harvey and Dick. Considering TNBA ended with Harvey becoming Three-Face, I guess it was one of the final straws that broke his spiritual back. It's like eventually Batman became a slave to justice rather than a symbol for it.
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:06 PM   #115
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>last produced ep of BB features another future Robin candidate

>this one is really sweet and smart

ngggggggghhhhhh

If runaway boy was Beyond's version of Jason this kid definitely feels like Tim, right down to the hero worship (although not of Batman initially). The way he smiled knowingly at Terry at the end - revealing he did remember Batman's identity but implying he can be trusted to keep the secret (and may have even deliberately manipulated his memory's image to protect it from Kobra) - does make me kinda want to see him as a Robin. He's even established to be of Spanish descent so there's your ethnic diversity.

But then he almost got fed to a pit of snakes and Return of the Joker followed right after and ughhhhhh

(also I never noticed that Harley was singing "Hush Little Baby" when Batman and Batgirl arrived at Arkham before omg the creepy irony of the lyrics *explodes with fanfic lust*)

Another thing that struck me as I was rewatching was Joker's line at the end to Terry that "it adds a little resonance to a hero's mission to have some defining element of tragedy in his background". It kinda felt like the writers (and maybe even a bit of Tim) talking there. Like, I think I read an author's perspective somewhere that superheroes aren't supposed to be happy, with the sacrifices they make. It's a sobering reason for why they're rarely seen to settle down and have a peaceful life.
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Old 10-03-2015, 11:03 PM   #116
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ububu babies
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:48 PM   #117
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Best Robin cosplay:

Spoiler: show

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Old 10-21-2015, 12:01 AM   #118
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@Morg: Daww~



>Joker calls Ace the "best sidekick a homocidal maniac could ask for"

...why do I feel strangely indignant perturbed by this? *shot*

no but holy déjŕ vu

Joker basically did try to raise his own flock through the Royal Flush Gang

and when that failed he turned to someone closer

and did to Robin what he planned to use Ace for to begin with: drive another person(s) crazy

*mind spins with potential JJ x Ace crossover???* *shot repeatedly*

doubt they could've ever met though rats

still this fuels several of my headcanons

namely the theory I recently subscribed to that Joker realizes they're in a comic world - maybe what Ace showed him at the end to drive him further insane is the secret of the universe

also if Harley was jealous of Ace then she was likely jealous of JJ too

*squirms* ahh so many fics I want to write but so little time not to mention a lot of other things on my mind right now and even a few I want to post but nervous OTL

P.S. *ignores the fact that the whole set of Bat Family suits show up in the Batcave in the JL season finale shortly thereafter* It's possible RotJ could have taken place in the interim but I doubt it. Probably just a plot hole there for decoration.

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Old 10-21-2015, 12:24 AM   #119
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*suddenly imagines Ace as DCAU's version of Cassandra Cain*
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Old 10-25-2015, 05:45 AM   #120
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RotJ is set at the 'end' of the DCAU continuity, with BB set in a sequel period. Once and Future Thing and therefore all of JL happens before RotJ.

I did not care for the Royal Flush Gang.
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:54 AM   #121
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RotJ is set at the 'end' of the DCAU continuity, with BB set in a sequel period. Once and Future Thing and therefore all of JL happens before RotJ.

I did not care for the Royal Flush Gang.
How come, out of curiosity?

I'm just surprised that (at least one incarnation of) the Royal Flush Gang actually originated from Joker. I knew of their existence from BB of course and saw some of the clips involving Ace on YT, but I figured they were an already established group whom Joker simply hired/decided to work with. But the original(?) members basically were a bunch of reverse Robins (ironic, given they are voiced by the Teen Titans cast). I wonder what happened to the rest of them after their "father" was defeated; did they stay a "family" or break up?

And then there's Ace. Still haven't seen her final episode, but reading the synopsis it seems she tried to recreate her own Royal Flush Gang to be her new family. ...Except they turned against her too. Given how Batman relates to her for being cheated out of both their childhoods, the parallels of the two surrounding themselves with surrogates is pretty sad. The Royal Flush Gang is basically the antithesis to the Batfam: a clan come together to commit crime rather than fight it.
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Old 10-26-2015, 03:19 PM   #122
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I don't really know to be honest. I just didn't like the episode very much. A lot of Batman in JL was kind of silly. Batman has no real business being in the Justice League, but he's so popular you can't leave him out.
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Old 10-26-2015, 04:31 PM   #123
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I don't really know to be honest. I just didn't like the episode very much. A lot of Batman in JL was kind of silly. Batman has no real business being in the Justice League, but he's so popular you can't leave him out.
I like JL Batman; would rather have silly than brooding loner bat. Although looking into Ace's Royal Flush Gang they were pretty, uh...
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:23 PM   #124
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>Once and Future Thing Part Two

>Old Bruce watching his protegé being shocked on the screen by Dee Dees

"TERRY!" *hangs head* "...Terry."

;-;

Of course they had to bring the RotJ cast back for this...

(Aside though: yeehaw cowboy Bruce)

(also Black Canary is super-hot)
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Old 11-03-2015, 06:48 PM   #125
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BORKED

Found this last night, it's a short from two years ago. As much as I don't care for Catwoman or her TNBA design, the music and animation are pretty sexy.

(Speaking of animation, been rewatching bits here and there again and can I just talk about how quickly Barbara's face turns to utterly distressed when Bruce picks up the straightjacket in RotJ and even though you can't tell from the screencap his hands are subtly shaking with rage

also Tim's legs can never sit still damnit seriously he's such a kid)

In more fun news Mark Hamill's returning to voice Joker in The Killing Joke next year, which could be rated R.
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