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Old 04-09-2011, 08:04 PM   #201
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Well, it did at the time (or at least according to someone who reffed a similar situation for me).
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:08 PM   #202
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Clearly, you guys need me.

>Giga Drain

Will be adjusted.

>Taunt

Zora's idea is good. Will be rewritten to reflect this. And also force Pokemon to use moves (that was on my list but got skipped - sorry!)

>Stone Edge

OK I'm just going to make a decision then.

Rocks are needed to be present in the Arena BUT you don't need to summon them from the ground.

Why?

This balances it more than you think it does.

You can get rocks from basically any arena, even weird stuff like Clay or Concrete. As long as there's something roughly rock or earth-based in the arena, you can use it. It just prevents you from MAGICAL ROCK SUMMONING because that's really what my problem is.

Effectively, it's the same but totally different.

Also it makes it so there is a way to shut down Rock attacks. Because sometimes, they need to be shut down.

>Fowl Play

I'll have to reread it to figure out exactly what you're talking about (I forgot what I wrote) but what you proposed sounds reasonable.

>Swagger

I'm actually confused here. Anyone care to describe what they think the difference is?

>Flying Razor Wind

Ok.

>Dragon Twister

No.

>Rock Climb

Still no.
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:10 PM   #203
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No-one listens to me or Elsie because we know nothing :p.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:50 AM   #204
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I don't really see why you have a problem with not needing to summon rocks Jeri. I mean, really, I don't get it. Why is it necessary to have there be rocks in the ground for, say, Ash's Gliscor to use Stone Edge in mid air, when pokémon routinely use Thunderbolt without there being an abundance of electricity flying about or use Blizzard in the middle of a desert. See Treep vs ABL in her gym arena for the latter example. Sure, there's a bit of natural electricity and water in every human, and most pokémon, but really your argument doesn't make any sense. If we're accepting the fact that pokémon can just create a giant kanjii of fire from nothing and launch it at a good speed, why are we saying that pokémon can't create rocks and launch them at people? Clefable can use Water Gun, does it have to summon all of that water from the arena as well? Should we not make it so that water attacks can only be used if there's a source of water somewhere, even if it's just an underground source that need not be visible?

No, because that would be stupid.

Furthermore, it's inconsistent. Look at the new Rock Blast:
Quote:
Rock Blast (RK) – The user gathers many rings of Rock energy around itself in the form of small pebbles, launching each ring one by one at the foe for good damage.
There is quite literally no good reason why we can't just make Stone Edge exactly the same. For example:
Quote:
Stone Edge (RK) – The user gathers many rings of Rock energy around itself in the form of medium and large boulders, launching them towards the target in one volley, dealing significant damage.
Now, Rock Wrecker is different. That's all good, it's performed in a different way to these two attacks. So is Rock Slide and so is Stealth Rock. But there is no reason why Stone Edge (or Rock Blast) should need there to be rocks under the field. Unless you have some fear of facing a Golem in the white room.

Your solution isn't really a problem, assuming refs are always going to ref it correctly (which many won't), but it's just a long way round something which could potentially be very simple.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:56 AM   #205
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Unless I'm very much mistaken one of the disliked aspects of the magical summoning rocks debate was the possibility of further abuse - given that the rocks could be further used in other moves when added to the arena. I'm probably mistaken here, because if that's a core part of the rationale it doesn't make much sense either - the same thing could be said about Water-types and their copious vomiting of liquid. (Notably, in the show all instances of Stone Edge magically vanish the rocks. Probably, we could explain this as the energy dissipating away after the attack has worked its magic, pun intended.)
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:10 AM   #206
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Ah, I see. If that's a problem, I entirely agree with you; the rocks are made of Rock energy, thus, they dissipate once the attack is completed. As with current water attacks, and presumably things like Pin Missile. Pay Day is an exception it seems to me but that doesn't matter so much as that's the whole point of the attack.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:42 AM   #207
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Snatch - Using good energy, the user places a curse on the opponent which prevents them from using any recovery moves or status boosting attacks on themselves for the next few rounds. If the victim does use one, then the Snatch-er gains the benefits.

This needs clearing up. Suggestion:

Using good energy, the user places a curse on the opponent which prevents them from using any recovery moves or status boosting attacks on themselves for the next few rounds. If the victim has already used one that round, then the Snatch-er steals the benefits.
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:35 PM   #208
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Posting to say that I back Kush with regard to Stone Edge. Needing to summon rocks when most 'mon will only get one full-power go out of it is obscenely retarded. I'd say that the 'mon forms rings of Rock energy which form into stones, which hit the foe and disintegrate, which is pretty much what's shown in the anime.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:59 PM   #209
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Quote:
>Flying Razor Wind

Ok.
*Fistpump*


Quote:
>Rock Climb

Still no.



You have yet to explain to me- How is Anime!Rock Climb any worse than Fissure?!
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:03 PM   #210
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Animé Rock Climb causes the ground to go up wards vastly and then you tackle them. This is different to splitting the ground open. Whether Fissure should be as good as it is is debatable.
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:21 PM   #211
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Animé Rock Climb causes the ground to go up wards vastly and then you tackle them. This is different to splitting the ground open. Whether Fissure should be as good as it is is debatable.
Fissure causes the ground to split open and move to the sides.

They're both movement of the earth, just in different directions. And 'vasty' would depend on the pokemon.



When are you guys gonna realize your arguments against Rock Climb can just be applied to Fissure?

Quote:
Fissure causes the ground to split apart vastly, dropping the target into it.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:24 PM   #212
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When are you guys gonna realize your arguments against Rock Climb can just be applied to Fissure?
Oh, sorry, you don't appear to have actually read my post. give it a quick double check and get back to me love.
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:27 PM   #213
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Fissure splits the ground open.
Rock Climb creates a mountain.

They are different.
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:34 PM   #214
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Fissure splits the ground open.
Rock Climb creates a mountain.

They are different.
They are the positive and negative of each other. Fissure makes the ground go down, Rock Climb makes the ground go up. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:39 PM   #215
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They are the positive and negative of each other. Fissure makes the ground go down, Rock Climb makes the ground go up. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
...

Look, in truth, animé Rock Climb isn't really that bad, though clearly the animators were on crack. It's just that if we do it, we have to simultaneously change a few other moves e.g. Fissure to magically change back after a while.

The alternative is to leave it like it was when Grotle used to use it, as opposed to Torterra. Much easier.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:08 PM   #216
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do you mean the massive glowing, extended claws thing?
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:35 PM   #217
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Since clearly the Stone Edge thing has clearly caused a sore spot (and I'll admit to being a bit iffy on my stance anyways), I'll cede. I'm gonna get some other opinions before coming to a hasty decision.

>Fissure vs. Rock Climb

Yes, they are effectively "opposites". However, that doesn't really account for much. Fissure is actually vastly different for a multitude of reasons.

Reason #1: It's an entirely different idea.
Fissure is a pretty straightforward concept - you make a big hole in the ground. That is what defines a Fissure and that is how it is consistently displayed. So, therefore, it makes sense to cast the move as such. Rock Climb, however, only implies in its name, animation and description just that - it involves climbing up rocks, regardless of what they are or how they're produced. We have no real obligation to make rocks for them to climb.

Reason #2: Most Fissure-users have some rational for familiarity with the move
Fissure-users fall into two categories: Ground-types and bulky Pokemon. Ground-Pokemon have the familiarity of the type to account for their use of Fissure. Bulky Pokemon have the advantage of their weight in order to add more force to the move. There are a couple exceptions, but they are either related to a Pokemon in one of those two categories.
Rock Climb does not have categories like that. Because of its HM status and some buyer's remorse after recalling its status, a hodgepodge of Pokemon have been left with the move. There's no real logic behind their selection. This also means that Pokemon who have no real reason to use this move (Bidoof, Zigzagoon, Joltik) have received it.

Reason #3: Fissure gives us reason to be what it is.
Like I said, Fissure is straightforward. We can justify it.
The anime version of Rock Climb does not. In fact, all other media implies that it actually doesn't do that at all.

Ok, I know I'm sounding a bit hypocritical. I know that I've said before, this isn't Game-Style Battling, and I agree. But I am willing to meet you half way.

Before the LETS SUMMON A MOUNTAIN thing happened, Rock Climb was portrayed far differently, as only energy is used to shroud the claws and go in for a heavy charge (which is what the game's description suggests). This makes it basically like Body Slam and Quick Attack combined into one, and explains why a lot of Pokemon like Tauros, and even some of the problematic tiny ones, can use it. Would everyone be willing to accept a rewrite reflecting this? I'd like it, as it'd put the move into a usable and variable context.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:43 PM   #218
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:45 PM   #219
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But I want my Joltik to make anthills! ;O;
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:46 PM   #220
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Oh look. Jeri's finally going to use the description I wrote. And it only took him how many months?

Also, while we're here, you should rewrite Rock Tomb to reflect its most recent anime appearence.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:47 PM   #221
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>Also, while we're here, you should rewrite Rock Tomb to reflect its most recent anime appearence.

You're really, really funny.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:12 PM   #222
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OK, so, the promised rewrites.

Giga Drain (GR) -- The user concentrates, and drains a considerable amount of energy directly from the opponent at a moderate rate, using the energy to restore a good portion of its own energy and recover health slightly. The amount of energy and health drained is proportional to the distance from the victim, and multiple uses of this attack will yield diminishing returns. Repeated usage of this move will have increasingly diminished effects.

Looking at Taunt, people are dumb. Attack power is in the description already. But I'll specify as both.

Taunt (DK) -- The user mocks or belittles opponent(s), leading to the victim(s) entering somewhat of a Berserk state, increasing their physical and special attack power, but only desiring to perform actions that deal damage to the user. The attack fails if the user is already getting beaten enough to render the attack laughable. The attack ends when the victim forgets the Taunt or gets back at the user.

Really not sure how I can get much more specific than I am right now on Foul Play. It's a bit hard for me to say "IT DOES THIS MUCH DAMAGE" when there's going to clearly be some variability. Just take Concept's idea as the average.

Foul Play (DK) – The user waits for the foe to attack with a physical attack while charging a significant amount of energy into their hand or claw. Just as the foe begins to perform its attack, the user counters by mirroring the foe, using the momentum of the attack against them and stopping them short. Since the user manages to counter much of the force of the attack, the damage done is reduced by a fair amount (about 25%, refs discretion). This move does damage proportional to the adjusted damage of the move countered, but since it is considered unsporting, it will aggravate the target, and cannot be used on the same target more than once.

Razor Wind (FL) -- The user creates a strong wind (usually by flapping wings, blowing, etc.) that blows towards the opponent. Within this wind, small pockets of air become compressed, creating small pieces of 'hard' (like the hard flame in 'Fire Blast') wind that fly in the direction of the opponent and hit for significant damage. These pieces of hard wind also have a very good chance to inflict small cuts.

Snatch (DK) – Using good energy, the user places a curse on the opponent which prevents them from using any recovery moves or status boosting attacks on themselves for the next few rounds. If the victim does use one, then the Snatch-er steals the benefits, the user getting none aside from some energy use. The Snatch-er will also use energy relative to the attack Snatched, but since they did not have to originally generate it, they use somewhat less.

Rock Climb (NO/XX) -- The user extends their feet or claws with energy, using this energy as a means of friction reduction, improved grip and propulsion. This allows them to gain speed for one of two purposes - a straight, heavy tackle attack, like a weakened form Take Down, or to scale a steep surface, allowing them to, if possible, perform a body slam on the foe below. While the grounded version will do about the same amount of damage for all Pokemon (between good and considerable, depending on the proportion of size between the user and target) for an equal amount of energy, the climbing version can potentially deal between significant and high damage for equivalent energy, again depending on the size proportion of combatants.

Someone inform me of the problem with Swagger.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:31 PM   #223
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Does Giga Drain drain health? Not really clear by the description, which seems to contradict itself.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:09 PM   #224
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I... am not sure.

Hm. Will consult later on this one.
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Old 04-12-2011, 05:30 AM   #225
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Good work jeri
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