UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > POKÉMON

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-22-2017, 05:46 AM   #1
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Pokemon Silver replay

I'm replaying Silver and my goal is to capture Nidoran Male and bring back my G1 Nidoking to terrorize a new generation. I think after I play this, I might actually play RSE...fourteen years late? Haha!

That said, looking at Smogon I realized that Nidoking actually got a boost in stats from G1 to G2. In G1, his special was 75. In G2, his Special Defense is 75, while his Special Attack is 85.

What Pokemon got boosts in base stats from G1-G2? I know Mewtwo was nerfed, but I thought that was the norm.

Also, is it possible for me to mathematically generate perfects in this Gen somehow? I am probably going to breed my Nidoking to try and get one, but I don't know how it's done.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 10:10 AM   #2
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,202
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Breeding for a Pokémon with perfect IVs prior to Gen 6 is ill-advised. You will either need to abuse the RNG or else outright cheat if you want a perfect Pokémon within your lifetime.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 08:20 AM   #3
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Loki told me he was breeding perfects for sale as early as Gen IV, so I presumed it was a possible (although labourious) affair. That said, holy crack is breeding painful (eww) in GSC. It takes forever, I'm wasting hours on eggs that don't do what I want them to.

Silver kind of sucks, and is not that fun to replay, but I've known that since I first played it. The game did not open up until the Kanto surprise, which somehow I was not spoiled on despite spending over a year at BMG. Aside from some new features, there just wasn't a lot of appeal to Johto bar its landscape. That's one thing I can appreciate in this review, the atmosphere of Johto feels like a retirement community or an "end of days" scenario like from Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou.

I can understand why people might have craved some polish on it, both for the characters and gameplay. But they're also missing the trees for the forests. When I first played Silver, I found it an easier, lamer copypasta of RBY. But that's because it had to follow RBY. The Kanto reveal was stunning, but that was also the first time Gamefreak pulled that twist. It became routine following GSC.

I remember the first thing I did when I first returned to Kanto. I beelined directly for Pallet Town and went to see my (Ash's) mother. It was a very sobering moment because she didn't recognize me even though I was using the same name from RBY, and she was openly worrying about "her son". But she was welcoming to this stranger, anyway.

I didn't know the word then, but my heart definitely spoke Japanese at that moment.

"ただ今..."
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 09:11 AM   #4
lilbluecorsola
Crying Prologue
 
lilbluecorsola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Searching for red
Posts: 4,549
Lil' Bluey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I remember the first thing I did when I first returned to Kanto. I beelined directly for Pallet Town and went to see my (Ash's) mother. It was a very sobering moment because she didn't recognize me even though I was using the same name from RBY, and she was openly worrying about "her son". But she was welcoming to this stranger, anyway.

I didn't know the word then, but my heart definitely spoke Japanese at that moment.

"ただ今..."
...Now I wonder if the reason Red is silent and holed up in Mt. Silver is bc his soul somehow got sucked out and transported into the new protagonist, leaving him an empty shell. *shot*

Silver was the first (and only) Pokémon game I (legally) owned on cartridge. I have a lot of fond memories of it. Unfortunately when I booted up the game years later it crashed and all my data was wiped. =( RIP my Lv. 100 team. ;; (Kinda wonder if it's bc I had a glitched TELEPORTing Scyther thanks to my brother. =x)

Boy I remember breeding hell though. I tried both that and regular fishing method in vain search of a Shiny Corsola, but even with 3x Dodrio speed on Stadium it got tedious pretty fast. >.>;
__________________




Do you remember that word I loved...?

Mekakucity Actors Discussion Thread

Last edited by lilbluecorsola; 08-25-2017 at 09:39 AM.
lilbluecorsola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 10:47 AM   #5
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post


...Now I wonder if the reason Red is silent and holed up in Mt. Silver is bc his soul somehow got sucked out and transported into the new protagonist, leaving him an empty shell. *shot*
That's basically what really happened though! In-game, there's no connection between Red and Gold. The sensation if GSC being a "sequel" is only apparent to the player.

As the player there's a sense of loss because the 3 years between RBY and GSC are simply missing from personal experience. I had similar feelings toward Muv-Luv Alternative and Dangan Ronpa.

I also think GSC was particularly special because it came out in late 2000...less than a year before the real world changed irrevocably. It felt like the last, truly innocent adventure story.

I imagine many British feel this way about the Edwardian period before World War I. If you were 10 years old in 1914, your adolescence was defined by the Great War, your 20's defined by the recession to end all recessions, and your 30's defined by another awful war. Bipolar stability from the 1950's onward was not the kind of ignorant bliss that defined the British Empire before 1914 - once the innocence was lost, it never came back.

That's why I think this replay is kind of important. There is a strong tendency to lionize Gen 2, even though as early as April 2001 I thought Gen 2 sucked hard and Pokemon was in decline from the glory days of 1998.

It all feels really distant now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post

Silver was the first (and only) Pokémon game I (legally) owned on cartridge. I have a lot of fond memories of it. Unfortunately when I booted up the game years later it crashed and all my data was wiped. =( RIP my Lv. 100 team. ;; (Kinda wonder if it's bc I had a glitched TELEPORTing Scyther thanks to my brother. =x)

Boy I remember breeding hell though. I tried both that and regular fishing method in vain search of a Shiny Corsola, but even with 3x Dodrio speed on Stadium it got tedious pretty fast. >.>;
I've been a parasite who has never owned a console, save a hand-held called Merlin: The 10th Quest. But breeding for me was never as targeted as it became for others in later gens, so this targeted breeding is a new thing for me. We didn't have resources like Bulbapedia or Smogon at our disposal so things really were like animal husbandry. Like, I knew about EVs because they were obvious - human trained Pokemon were stronger than wilds - but IVs were totally black box.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 10:52 AM   #6
Shuckle
Mage of Mind
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Land of Thought and Melody
Posts: 3,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Silver kind of sucks, and is not that fun to replay, but I've known that since I first played it. The game did not open up until the Kanto surprise, which somehow I was not spoiled on despite spending over a year at BMG. Aside from some new features, there just wasn't a lot of appeal to Johto bar its landscape. That's one thing I can appreciate in this review, the atmosphere of Johto feels like a retirement community or an "end of days" scenario like from Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou.

I can understand why people might have craved some polish on it, both for the characters and gameplay. But they're also missing the trees for the forests. When I first played Silver, I found it an easier, lamer copypasta of RBY. But that's because it had to follow RBY. The Kanto reveal was stunning, but that was also the first time Gamefreak pulled that twist. It became routine following GSC.
There are plenty of things that became routine that started in GSC. Box legends, mythicals, and ice puzzles for example.

But uh do you mind explaining why you consider the Kanto surprise "routine?"
__________________

Spoiler: show
[The Sorcerer's Ambition]A handy link, to be sure.
Level Acquisitions, sorted by level instead of name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Shuckle's awesomeness level continues to rise.
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 11:11 AM   #7
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Each new gen or gen x.5 has included a pair of games where there's an option to return to the region of the previous gen. The first time Gamefreak did that was with GSC, and it was totally a surprise.

"Dude, do you know what you've just done??"

wat

"You've stepped foot into Kanto."

WTF is Kanto?

"Check your map!"

HOLY CRACK!

RBY's region didn't have a name back then. It was just "The Pokemon World" or maybe some thought it was Japan because of the IRL references like the moon landing and "Lightning American" Lt. Surge fighting in the Gulf War.

...

Also, it just suddenly hit me, but the manga Kumo desu ga, nani ka? that I've been enjoying lately is basically Pokemon without trainers. I guess that's why I'm so fond of it.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 12:29 PM   #8
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,202
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
But uh do you mind explaining why you consider the Kanto surprise "routine?"
Yeah, I wanted to ask the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
The Kanto reveal was stunning, but that was also the first time Gamefreak pulled that twist. It became routine following GSC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Each new gen or gen x.5 has included a pair of games where there's an option to return to the region of the previous gen. The first time Gamefreak did that was with GSC, and it was totally a surprise.
What on earth are you talking about ...? The only time in the games' history that we've ever had a two-regions-in-one package was Generation 2. Even when you remodel it as "returning to an older region in a later title" (per the second quote of your text), what you're saying still doesn't hold up.
  • Fire Red and Leaf Green (Kanto) came out in Gen 3 (Hoenn), following on Gen 2 (Johto).
  • Heart Gold and Soul Silver (Johto) came out in Gen 4 (Sinnoh), following on Gen 3 (Hoenn).
  • Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire (Hoenn) came out in Gen 6 (Kalos), following on Gen 5 (Unova).
We've never had a game which came out in Generation n and took us back to the region debuted in Generation n-1. (Though I was hoping it was going to happen in Gen 7!)

Furthermore, all three of these are very clearly branded by the company -- and very well understood by most fans -- as re-releases of their original titles, not as "sequels" that "take us back to the region". There are minor narrative changes, with increasingly notability the newer the re-release, but at the end of the day it's the same story, the same world, the same game. No one looks at ORAS and goes, "Ah, we're returning to Hoenn " except in a nostalgic / poetic sense, an "Ah, my sweet, sweet Hoenn :')" from a child-turned-man who has fond memories of RuSa and has yearned for a chance to replay those games on modern hardware with modern graphics and other capabilities.

No one, and I mean no one except for you, has ever said, "What they pulled in GSC was novel back then but now it's old hat because they've done it every single generation." What they did in GSC wasn't just "Hey, we're going back to the old region! " It was, "Hey, we're going back to the old region ... in this same game ... on this same save file ... with this same timeskip." That -- all of that -- is what made it such a big deal. The 2-in-1. The revisit after time has passed. The revisit in the shoes of a new player character with a new team of Pokémon. And that, they have never done again. It can't possibly be "old hat." It's only been done the one time.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 01:56 PM   #9
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
We've never had a game which came out in Generation n and took us back to the region debuted in Generation n-1. (Though I was hoping it was going to happen in Gen 7!)
Black and White 2 take place in a new region of Unova, two years after the original title, and you have to progress through this new region before unlocking access to the original areas. That's a close parallel to the original since technically Johto and Kanto are supposed to be the same region, as evidenced by their Pokedex and Pokemon League.

That's why I had to affix the X.5 because I knew the BW2 (still Gen 5) scenario as fact, but not having played a single Gen 3 or Gen 4 game, I had no way of knowing that didn't apply to RSE/DPP. I was honestly mistaken in thinking that it was featured as part of the post-game.

I know Sinnoh and Hoenn are physically isolated from one another, but without first hand experience it's difficult to verify claims of a boat trip from Sinnoh to Hoenn without also looking at spoiler material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Furthermore, all three of these are very clearly branded by the company -- and very well understood by most fans -- as re-releases of their original titles, not as "sequels" that "take us back to the region". There are minor narrative changes, with increasingly notability the newer the re-release, but at the end of the day it's the same story, the same world, the same game. No one looks at ORAS and goes, "Ah, we're returning to Hoenn " except in a nostalgic / poetic sense, an "Ah, my sweet, sweet Hoenn :')" from a child-turned-man who has fond memories of RuSa and has yearned for a chance to replay those games on modern hardware with modern graphics and other capabilities.
I didn't initially take the remakes into account in this discussion, but since you've brought it up I have addressed it below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
No one, and I mean no one except for you, has ever said, "What they pulled in GSC was novel back then but now it's old hat because they've done it every single generation." What they did in GSC wasn't just "Hey, we're going back to the old region! " It was, "Hey, we're going back to the old region ... in this same game ... on this same save file ... with this same timeskip." That -- all of that -- is what made it such a big deal. The 2-in-1. The revisit after time has passed. The revisit in the shoes of a new player character with a new team of Pokémon. And that, they have never done again. It can't possibly be "old hat." It's only been done the one time.
But you do return in HGSS, so it is "old hat".

I don't really think this is arguable, either. GSC and RBY were groundbreaking; FR/LG and HGSS, not so much. It's like comparing Jurassic Park in 1993, where nobody had seen realistic CGI dinosaurs, to Jurassic World in 2015 after twenty years of movie, television, and video game exposure to unrealistic CGI chickens.

Even if Jurassic World is say, a 5-year old's first exposure to CGI dinosaurs - highly unrealistic -it's even crazier to think about how they'd go 7 years before seeing another one outside of that movie. That's how long the rest of us had to wait until Walking with Dinosaurs debut on television, when the technology became cheap enough to port onto a television program.

Even someone who willfully chose to play an unnatural "chronological" order, FR/LG, HGSS, ORAS - is going to have a less magical experience than playing RBY to GSC. GSC might be way less polished, but it came out in a completely different era modern players have no avenue for truly respecting.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 07:36 PM   #10
Shuckle
Mage of Mind
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Land of Thought and Melody
Posts: 3,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
but not having played a single Gen 3 or Gen 4 game, I had no way of knowing that didn't apply to RSE/DPP. I was honestly mistaken in thinking that it was featured as part of the post-game
Girl

It's one thing to review something in the context of your personal enjoyment of it.

It is quite another to review it in the context of the entire series.

And it is abso fucking lutely not in the same era as doing so without any actual knowledge of at least 50% of the entire series.
__________________

Spoiler: show
[The Sorcerer's Ambition]A handy link, to be sure.
Level Acquisitions, sorted by level instead of name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Shuckle's awesomeness level continues to rise.
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 08:06 PM   #11
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
"If you've played one Pokemon game, you've played them all" entitles me to make that comparison. You're criticizing me for not knowing one detail about RSE/DPP, when in spite of not having played games in those gens I already know the major mechanic changes and 90% of the format is consistent from gen to gen. You still bike, surf and fly. There's eight gym leaders, a team of bad guys, a rival, Elite Four and a champion. I played Gen 5, so it's not like I'm totally ignorant on how conservative Gamefreak is between gens.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 09:20 PM   #12
Shuckle
Mage of Mind
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Land of Thought and Melody
Posts: 3,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
"If you've played one Pokemon game, you've played them all" entitles me to make that comparison. You're criticizing me for not knowing one detail about RSE/DPP, when in spite of not having played games in those gens I already know the major mechanic changes and 90% of the format is consistent from gen to gen. You still bike, surf and fly. There's eight gym leaders, a team of bad guys, a rival, Elite Four and a champion. I played Gen 5, so it's not like I'm totally ignorant on how conservative Gamefreak is between gens.
But...I didn't bring the detail up. Your review wasn't that long, and the "[Specific twist] was fresh back then, but immediately became routine/cliche" is at least a third of what you've said about the game so far. Your one argument given for that is something that not only isn't true, but that you are now defending by saying "There's no way I would have known it's not true!"

Also, B2W2 is definitely not the same thing as GSC. In GSC, you have a new region, and then return to the first one in the postgame. There is no original Unova in the B2W2 postgame.

And I would say that the being wrong part is totally fine, and even the attempted deflection from your mistake. But what does irk me is that you were trying to capitalize on things that other people say to criticize the series. The opinions you give are not actually yours. Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż
__________________

Spoiler: show
[The Sorcerer's Ambition]A handy link, to be sure.
Level Acquisitions, sorted by level instead of name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Shuckle's awesomeness level continues to rise.
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 10:52 PM   #13
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
But...I didn't bring the detail up. Your review wasn't that long, and the "[Specific twist] was fresh back then, but immediately became routine/cliche" is at least a third of what you've said about the game so far. Your one argument given for that is something that not only isn't true, but that you are now defending by saying "There's no way I would have known it's not true!"
If that's the problem...here are the distinguishing features of GSC as I see it:

-new types, breeding, location/atmosphere
-the ability to revisit Kanto as part of the postgame

But that's it. Nothing else is major enough to be noteworthy (new moves? Pokemon?) and everything else is a slower, more cumbersome grind than RBY without the iconic characters, music or novelty.

I've replayed RBY three times since last August, and a total of six times total, but this is the second time I've replayed Silver. I still haven't gotten sick of RBY despite acknowledging its limitations, but GSC never had enough positives and too many of the negatives of RBY to really justify much of a replay.

And that's one justification for why I skipped over RSE and DPP. By BW, I felt like there might be enough changes - along with a new gallery of organic-looking Pokemon designs - to jump on the hype train. And I really did like it a lot, and much more than GSC save a few things.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2017, 11:32 AM   #14
Shuckle
Mage of Mind
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Land of Thought and Melody
Posts: 3,117
Ok, well, I really enjoyed the day/night cycle and the different pokemon. If you don't have any favorites available by Violet City and didn't like the starters then yeah I definitely get where you're coming from.

I think someone's just mad he couldn't get a Nidoran :^)

(rt. 35, same place I grinded for an Abra for like an hour when I was 6 years old)

I agree that GSC is definitely a slower game than RBY and the early routes have a lot of unavoidable grass. But it does get better pretty quickly. Caves and water are also significantly better than in RBY.
__________________

Spoiler: show
[The Sorcerer's Ambition]A handy link, to be sure.
Level Acquisitions, sorted by level instead of name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Shuckle's awesomeness level continues to rise.
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2017, 09:41 PM   #15
Missingno. Master
Poison-type Trainer
 
Missingno. Master's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Virbank City
Posts: 3,522
I personally like playing Gen II. Then again, Dunsparce and Qwilfish are two of my favorites, and Koffing is available way earlier than it is in Gen I...
__________________


My Shiny Pokémon (not up for trade, I don't do requests for Shiny banners or recolored Pokken artwork). FB team banners like the one above, however, those I do requests for.
Missingno. Master is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 02:09 AM   #16
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
Ok, well, I really enjoyed the day/night cycle and the different pokemon.
Actually this is something I forgot to address.

Day/night was indeed a thing during my original play of GSC. But after I set the clock here, it's run slow because I use bgb's save feature instead of the game's internal save. It's just way faster, but it's basically ruined any sense of pacing in the game itself. I've accumulated huge number of apricorns I can't even use because Kurt takes a day in-game to make them, but I'm already at Jasmine's Gym before an in-game day has even elapsed.

Curiously, the emulator I used for RBY back in 2000 was rew...which is the same one I used here in 2017. I had to do another fresh run to open up the internet link

Venusaur and Charizard are huge reptiles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
I think someone's just mad he couldn't get a Nidoran :^)
I was able to transfer my RBY Nidoking to GSC and have him breed, but the results were less than steller. So far I've managed to breed a Nidoran female with Slowpoke, which got me a Nidorino capable of Confusion.

The most fun I had in the postgame of RBY (aside from fighting Mewtwo) was having a Cerulean Cave Ditto transform into Nidoking, and then try to beat it with the other five on my team. That turned into an honest challenge because my Nidoking had max EVs and at Level 100 outsped everything that wasn't my own Nidoking, and had Boltbeam, E-Quake and Body Slam - so the result was my own party got swept 9/10 times. Ditto aren't strong enough in GSC to allow that to happen.

My title back in 2003ish was "Lord of Destruction" because I tend to favour huge, flash, intimidating attacks and creatures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
I agree that GSC is definitely a slower game than RBY and the early routes have a lot of unavoidable grass. But it does get better pretty quickly. Caves and water are also significantly better than in RBY.
I did have more fun in the caves, in no small part to the caves having water areas. But it was still annoying to take one step and BAM there's some weak mook Pokemon. RBY made it a lot easier to avoid weak Pokemon later in the game: most of Kanto was paved, so no need to go through side paths or grass to reach cities, and some areas were blocked orr or made out-of-the-way so you would avoid having to face weak Pokemon again, i.e. Mt. Moon.

Water is about the same. Southwest area of the map has water, filled with Tentacool and Tentacruel.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2017, 11:22 PM   #17
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Do held items increase the power of Hidden Power?

I'm looking for a move that's spammable in high qualities. In RBY, the set was Thrash/Earthquake/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt.

Thrash has been nerfed and if I have to go physical, I would prefer using the STAB instead. Fighting-type is good against Normal/Dark/Rock/Steel, which helps out for the few physical walls Nidoking can't otherwise break with Eartquake.

The two options I've been looking at:

Submission (with Leftovers)
Hidden Power Fighting (with Blackbelt)

Hidden Power would have a power of 77 with max IV and a boost. Submission is 80 with recoil, and consistent damage, but Leftovers sort of mitigates that.

Which is the better option?
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 11:04 AM   #18
Shuckle
Mage of Mind
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Land of Thought and Melody
Posts: 3,117
I don't mind that the routes are clogged with grass and shitmon. Made it feel untamed and dangerous to me, which I didn't actually get the feeling of in RBY. Having most areas be unavoidable made paved areas feel like a blessing, unlike RBY where I got furious every time the easy paved route cut off and I had to walk through a tiny patch of grass.

I dislike the level curve, but I hate every game's level curve so it's not a big deal. GSC probably has the best because of the expansive postgame, so you can actually face real challenges late game. RBY is good, but Cerulean Cave is basically all you have.
__________________

Spoiler: show
[The Sorcerer's Ambition]A handy link, to be sure.
Level Acquisitions, sorted by level instead of name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Shuckle's awesomeness level continues to rise.
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2017, 04:24 PM   #19
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Weaker Pokemon should be intimidated by trainers and more powerful ones. It's almost the opposite logic of the real world where the default is avoidance: even powerful predators like bears, wolves and cougars tend to avoid unfamiliar things unless they're desperate. Animals fight as last resort and run away whenever possible.

Pokemon are the opposite, attacking anything that invades their territory regardless of strength. I can imagine being pestered by Pidgeotto or Murkrow if you're running a team of Weedle and Caterpie. But under no circumstances should Goldeen or Magikarp mess with a kid swimming on a giant alligator.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2017, 10:42 AM   #20
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
This is horribly disappointing.



My RBC-trained Nidoking vs. GSC Nidoking.

I remember now, years ago, that when I Gameshark'd GSC, I realized that most Pokemon in GSC were painfully weaker genetically than those born in RBY. This only serves to confirm it. After long hours training, I have a far inferior Nidoking to the one that destroyed RBY.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2017, 08:27 PM   #21
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,202
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
IVs and EVs, back then known under different names, were both a thing in the original games and in Gen 2. IVs, a Pokémon's genetic values. EVs, a Pokémon's weight training. It's entirely possible that the two Nidoking you are comparing:
  • have different genetic makeups, with the GSC one being strictly inferior
  • have gone through different weight training regimens, with the GSC one having gone through fewer
Click the box below to read more.

Spoiler: show
Here is Bulbapedia's bit on the Gens 1 & 2 equivalent of EVs, "stat experience". I will draw your attention to choice bits with blue bold text, but really the entire excerpt is worth reading:
In Generations I and II, effort points given are equal to the base stats of the defeated Pokémon species.

The Pokémon data structure contains two EV bytes for each of the five stats (HP, Attack, Defense, Speed and Special), starting at zero when caught and with a maximum EV of 65535 for each stat. When a Pokémon is defeated, its base stats are converted to effort points and then added to the EVs. For example, defeating a Mew grants 100 effort points to each EV. (Defeating 656 Mew, therefore, will give a Pokémon maximum EVs in each stat.)

EVs are factored into the Pokémon's stats when it levels up. Additionally, EVs are calculated into stats when a Pokémon is taken from Bill's PC; this is called the box trick. A Pokémon which reaches level 100 can continue to acquire EVs up to the maximum of 65535 in each stat, and use the box trick to have those EVs factored in.

Vitamins add 2560 to one stat's EV, but cannot raise a stat above 25600.

At level 100, the formula for determining the stat difference between a Pokémon trained in that stat and an untrained Pokémon is sqrt(Stat Exp) / 4, with the square root rounding upwards unless that would take it above 255, and the whole calculation rounding downwards.

EVs behave the same in Generation II as they did in Generation I. Both Special Attack and Special Defense share the EV for Special to maintain compatibility. The amount of Special EVs received is equal to the defeated Pokémon's Special Attack base stat. The box trick can still be used.
So basically, the higher the base stats of the Pokémon you KO, the higher the amount of Stat Exp you gain in any particular stat. KO an Electrode (base Speed of 140) and you gained 140 Speed Exp points. KO a Machamp (base Attack of 130) and you gained 130 Attack Exp points.

Also, the more Pokémon you KO'd, the likelier you were to max out any given stat's experience. Like the article says, if you were to KO 656 Mew (who has a base stat value of 100 for every single stat in the game), then you would max out all of your stat experience points -- because 65,535 is the maximum number of experience points you can have for any given stat and of course 656 x 100 = 65,600 > 65,535.

You might recall from childhood that players who doped their Pokémon up to Lv.100 on a diet of pure Rare Candies generally had weaker Lv.100s than did their hardercore companions who raised their Pokémon the old fashioned way. This is why. Rare candies don't give you any Stat Experience, so the only stat gains you were getting were the ones built in to up-leveling.

You might also recall from childhood that early "EV" training spots included Silph Tower (for Special), Rock Tunnel (for Defense), and Diglett Cave (for Speed).

If you've already accounted for all of this ... then it's probably just due to genetic variance. Kinda hard to believe that your GSC Nidoking would be inferior in all five/six stats (which is why I've included all this text above -- because I'm sort of convinced it's the EVs you're missing, not the IVs), but it is technically possible. After all, it's only a (1/2)^6 chance that all six of your GSC stats would be the genetically inferior ones. That's only a 1/64 chance. Not that small at all, really. Not in the grand scheme of things.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2017, 07:12 AM   #22
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Yukinomiya City, Fukushima Prefecture
Posts: 11,290
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
The EV's are maxed out. Both Pokemon have grinded out the Elite Four and Cerulean Cave. I've searched out different Pokemon and used the Bill PC method to see any recalculations, and nothing has happened. I kept both at the same level for this comparison.

The HP stat is derived from the others, so the lower attack and speed stats were going to be what hurt HP the most.

My GSC Nidoking isn't wild exactly, it evolved from a bred Nidoran with a Slowpoke father and a Nidoran mother. I did it to give Nidoking the Confusion egg move. So it isn't exactly random chance with what IVs it got.

Additionally, it was understood in my time that if you captured a "rarer" pokemon in one game, it was going to be stronger than a more common one. I played Pokemon Blue, where Nidoran male are considerably rarer in the wild, so the intuition is that it would be stronger than a Nidoran male caught from Pokemon Red.

Bulbapedia doesn't confirm this rumour, but interestingly it seems like if you have a Pokemon that has a 75% chance of being female, a male has a much narrower IV range. For a male-only species, the Attack IV is a random integer from 0-15. But for a 75/25 split species, the Attack IV of the male is a random integer between 12-15.

Nidoran male only has a 5% chance of appearing on Route 22...so I want to believe this, that the Nidoran was naturally a lot stronger being caught in RBY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulbapedia
In Generation II games, the baby inherits its stats from the parent of the opposite gender, unless one parent is Ditto, and in that case it inherits the stats from Ditto. The Defense IV is passed, and also either the Special IV or the Special IV plus or minus 8 (plus for values in the 0-7 range; minus for values in the 8-15 range); the Special IV has a 50% chance of remaining the same. Attack and Speed IVs are determined entirely at random, whereas HP is determined by the IVs of the other four stats, using the same formula for wild Pokémon. The probability of a Pokémon having the same IVs as its opposite-gender parent is therefore 1/512.
Special and Defense are pretty close to one another. So if we're rolling 0-15 for both Attack and Speed, there's a 50/50 shot of above 7 or below 7. If we assume that the Attack for the RBY Nidoking was going to be 12-15, it's a 50% chance of the Speed stat being worse. Which isn't bad at all.

What annoys me about this is it took forever to find out this Nidoking is genetically inferior. Breeding really does suck in Gens 1/2.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > POKÉMON


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:53 PM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.