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Old 05-25-2017, 04:05 PM   #1
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A mythical discussion.

Okay dokey, how about we talk about something awkward?

From what I know, there's a couple of folk here who have legendary pokemon through some means or another. Off the top of my head, there was 2 events where legendaries were injected into the game. An April Fools event (for 1.55 million coins, limited to Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy and Shaymin if memory serves) and some other 'find the legendary and PM the link for it' event for the pixies (Uxie, Mesprit and Azelf).

Mew and Jirachi were snapped up by two cluezers (Treep and me respectively) while the pixies went to Pest, Talon and someone else who isn't here anymore. As it stands, I'm the only active member with a legendary pokemon.

As the rules hastily scribbled down state...

Quote:
- Each member can only have 1 legendary in their team.
- All Legendary's start at level 1 when bought/picked up/won/etc etc
- Cannot be put into Adoption.
- Cannot be traded.
- Cannot be used in Trainer Battles (subject to re-assessment)
- All Legendary rules are subject to Edits and Additions
We have here pokemon which are untradable and can't be dumped, only released, as well as one or two things "subject to change."

What I'm asking is what approach we'll be having in regards to trainers and legendary pokemon, given their prior method of obtainment. The main subject is whether we want them to be obtainable and if not, if those who currently have them would be allowed to keep them, given their previous method of attainment, as well as establishing what rules would apply to legendaries and ultra beasts if we consider those legendary too. Would Type:Null be considered a legendary too?
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Old 05-25-2017, 04:55 PM   #2
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imo Null should be in whatever category Porygon is, they're both artificial Pokemon. Null's obviously hella rare, but I doubt it should hit legend criteria.

As for legends, I'm personally of the opinion that they should be, well, legendary. They might be allowed to exist for events and suchlike, but I'm against the idea of people owning them. As for currently owned legends, idk. Personally I'd have people drop the legend and pick up another mon of their choosing at level 1, but then again there's a reason I'm not hugely involved in this stuff.
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:45 PM   #3
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This is all personal opinion:

Like in the games, I don't mind certain legends being owned by people for canonical purposes. The birds and the beasts and the golems and the eon duo especially have already been confirmed to be numerous, just extremely rare. See: the battle frontier, multiple sigtings across different regions.

Mythical Pokemon, along with Mewtwo, Ho-Oh, Lugia, the Weather Trio, the Creation Trio, Regigigas, the Tao Trio, the Aura Trio (except maybe Zygarde), Necrozma, and the Island Guardians, should not be able to be captured.

I'm super iffy on the Swords of Justice and Forces of Nature as well as the Lake Trio. The latter is already owned by a few here, but in the in-universe canon I am pretty sure they are unique to Sinnoh, one of each, and are not numerous. I do not like that they have been obtained by some already, if I'm being honest.

Essentially, if a legendary Pokemon can exist in a population of more than 1 (ie. they are not unique) around the Pokemon World, I'm okay with them being captured. Otherwise... it sort of breaks RPing immersion.

Last edited by deoxys; 05-25-2017 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:49 PM   #4
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I am super strongly opposed to people owning legendary/mythical Pokemon. These things created the universe and can bend it to their will? And normal people can put them into Pokeballs? Nah.

I think we should really consider the "summoning" ideas that we talked about in the old FB development thread here.
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:58 PM   #5
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I have no problem with legendaries being obtainable. They should be extremely rare, obviously, and hard to obtain, but at the same time, not impossible.

Deoxys raises a good point- some legendaries make more sense to own than others. Zapdos and Moltres would be more feasible than the likes of Groudon or Giratina.

As for Ultra Beasts, I think they qualify as legendaries. Since even in a single game file there are clearly multiples of most of them (only one Guzzlord is ever seen, but aside from that, you either catch more than one or get to see more than one), I say they ought to be obtainable.

Type: Null... It comes across like a legendary in some ways, but it's practically supposed to be Trainer-owned. It even evolves via friendship, you never see one in the wild... I personally think it fits better classified as an Ultra Rare (for lack of a better term, considering I don't recall what we decided in terms of rarities) than as a legendary.

Those who currently own legendaries, I think they should keep 'em. Just my opinion.

EDIT: The summoning idea could be a way around not being allowed to catch some of the more unique and godlike legendaries. I thought it was an interesting idea back then, and I still think it's an interesting idea now. I just don't think it should completely replace the idea of owning legendaries in Poké Balls.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:06 PM   #6
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maybe
instead of owning a legendary
certain people can have a close bond with a legendairy and can call it with a certain item but not own it
As far as type null goes
treat it like porygon
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Old 05-25-2017, 10:13 PM   #7
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Was literally popping in to post the link to the old suggestion thread, but since that is already taken care of...

UBs count as legendary Pokemon in my book. Type: Null (and Phione) strike me as more in the realm of very rare Pokemon, like the fossils.

I'd definitely prefer the idea of befriending a Legendary and getting an item used to summon it over actually capturing it.

In regards to the idea of only one active person being able to befriend a specific Legendary at a time, I'm torn. On the one hand, I get wanting it to be special, and there's enough Legendary Pokemon to go around. On the other hand, I don't like limiting it leading to something like "Hey new person, every legendary but Regirock has been befriended by an active member, so that's the only one you have any chance of befriending unless people leave! Also four other people don't have one, so if they get it first, you're out of luck!" down the road if we have a very large and active community. It's a long way off if it ever comes, but I'd still be more comfortable with something in place to prevent the limitation meaning that we 'run out of Legendary Pokemon for people to befriend'.

I'd also like to make sure it isn't "If you ever go inactive, we are taking your Legendary and giving it to someone else!" Because that seems like a pretty terrible thing to do, and I know if I had worked hard to obtain a legendary and then took a hiatus because of a new job, or school, or a family crisis, and then came back to find it gone because I was 'away too long', I'd be pissed. Saying that people can't befriend a Legendary if it already befriended an active player is one thing, taking it from an inactive player to give away again is another thing entirely. If a player goes inactive, they should be able to come back to their Legendary, whether someone else obtained it while they are gone or not.

Also would like future legendary Pokemon to not be 'obtainable' through purchase/raffle/etc. The idea of people befriending them after a long and difficult adventure, or impressing them with their strength by winning a tournament held in the Legendary Pokemon's honor is a lot more appealing to me than just throwing money at it or getting lucky with a raffle.
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Old 05-25-2017, 10:48 PM   #8
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Im not saying that only ine person can befriend a legendary.
Far from it
multiple people, as long as they have adventured at a very dificult level with it and gained its trust, could potentially befriend a legendary.
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Old 05-25-2017, 11:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawaiiconcept View Post
Im not saying that only ine person can befriend a legendary.
Far from it
multiple people, as long as they have adventured at a very dificult level with it and gained its trust, could potentially befriend a legendary.
I was just summing up my thoughts on what had been posted in the original suggestion thread. While it devolved into a discussion on whether multiples of Legendary Pokemon existed, there was also discussion on whether more than one person could summon the same Legendary.

"If everyone can befriend an Articuno, it becomes less special." Is something I can agree with. Though as long as they aren't handed out like candy, I don't care much if two people befriended the same one. If ten people did, it seems like more of a problem, but since there's a ton of Legendary Pokemon to choose from, saying there's no restriction and then just being aware of which ones have been befriended and not just using the same ones over and over would solve that as well. If you are considering giving someone the chance to befriend a Legendary Pokemon, and you see that there are two Entei and zero Moltres, just choose to use Moltres instead and all that.
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Old 05-28-2017, 12:50 PM   #10
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Alright so after some... interesting discussion in Discord

There's general consensus that many legends shouldn't be owned in any capacity, and most of the community favors the idea of having summonable legendary Pokemon available to particularly challenging and daring adventures. I say most because there are also other points that include catching some legends, and catching all legends. So just to tl;dr the current viewpoints:

1)
Legends are too strong and narratively important to be capturable, and under no circumstances should be captured or registed to a trainer's name. If a trainer befriends a Legendary Pokemon in an adventure, they may recieve an item that allows them to call upon that legend in times of need (i.e. Snow Flute to summon Articuno or something. Probably with a cooler name.) In this case, a legendary Pokemon is considered to be level 100 and have access to every move in its movepool, although it will strongly favor signature or STAB moves (like a Lugia's Aeroblast or a Mesprit's Psychic). These legends cannot be nicknamed officially or added to your profile.

2)
Legends are strong and narratively important, but trainers can still register them as official members of their team. In this case, legends are still free spirits, able to do what they do as legends, and you would still need a summoning item to bring them to your side. However, they are officially registered as your Pokemon - you can nickname them, they need to be leveled up, and you can teach them certain moves.

3)
Most Legends are too strong and narratively important to be capturable, but some legends are at the level of other pokemon and should be capturable. Some legends like Dialga, Kyogre, or Zekrom would still require summoning items like proposal 1 or proposal 2. However, other legends, like Articuno, Raikou, or Uxie, would be capturable like any other Pokemon. Part of this proposal would be establishing a "tier list" of sorts, determining where Legendary Pokemon fall on this spectrum.

4)
Fuck it all. Legends are just Pokemon at their core, and people should be able to catch them normally.

On top of all of these, there are 5 members who currently own legendary Pokemon. Those who currently own legends can release them and in compromise get a goody bag (containing Rare Candies equal to their legendary's level, any TMs or custom move items that were used on the legend, and Pokedollars equal to the amount of MT moves taught to it) plus one basic stage Pokemon of their choice. (this is literally also what snorby wrote in the post above this and i didn't realize it was already there x.x)

So, for discussion! Which proposal do you prefer, and who is opposed to the current plan on dealing with currently existing legends?
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Old 05-28-2017, 12:55 PM   #11
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Lit's thoughts: Legendary and Mythical Pokemon

Okay, I know this is a heavily debated topic with a lot of people leaning more towards not allowing people to own them. This makes sense considering how powerful lore makes them out to be. However, some of them can be more likened to incredibly rare, incredibly powerful Pokemon instead of reality warping gods. Here is a list of tiers for these Legendary Pokemon in terms of being obtained

Catchable Legendaries: Articuno/Moltre/Zapdos (Bird Trio), Entei/Suicune/Raikou (Beast Trio), Regirock/Regice/Registeel (Golem Trio), Latias/Latios (Eon Twins), Mesprit/Uxie/Azelf (Emotion Trio), Heatran, Phione (If it is to be considered under legendary status), Cobalion/Terrakion/Virizion/Keldeo (Swords of Justice), Thundurus/Tornadus/Landorus (Kami Trio), Nihilego/Pheromosa/Buzzwole/Celesteela/Kartana/Xurkitree/Guzzlord (Ultra Beasts)

There are evidence of there being multiples of these Pokemon existing at any one time, and they are allowed into facilities such as the Battle Tree and Online Competitions. These Pokemon can be caught on Epic adventurers, but are still free to do their own bidding if they so wish.

Partner Legendaries: Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Cresselia/Darkrai (Lunar Duo), Manaphy, Victini, Meloetta, Genesect, Diancie, Tapu Koko/Tapu Lele/Tapu Bulu/Tapu Fini (Guardians of Alola), Magearna, Marshadow

While multiples are likely to exist, these Pokemon are incredibly rare and are not usually allowed into facilities such as the Battle Tree. While not technically bound to a trainer by Pokeball, they will generally designate that trainer as their partner and not leave their sides unless it is required. These Pokemon can be befriended and "caught" on Epic quests like catchable legends, but will take more effort to have them trust you and may span multiple adventures to fully befriend. When these Partner legends fully adknowledge you as their partner, they may mega evolve if possible. If enough time and trust is put into this partnership, the legend may offer its partner eternal friendship by being allowed to be captured.


Summoned Legendaries: Mewtwo/Mew (Ancestor and Clone), Lugia/Ho-oh (Tower Duo), Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza (Weather Trio), Dialga/Palkia/Giratina (Creation Trio), Regigigas (Golem Maker), Arceus (The Creator), Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem (Tao Trio), Xerneas/Yveltal/Xygarde (Life Trio), Hoopa (Dimensional Trickster), Volcanion (Steam Beast), Cosmog/Cosmoem/Solgaleo/Lunala/Necrozma (Cosmic Trio + Prevos of Solgaleo/Lunala)

Incredibly powerful Pokemon that hold the bounds of reality at their power. While there might be multiples of some, there is most likely only one for others. These Pokemon may be summoned with the appropriate item to aid a trainer in a dire situation in their adventure. They may only stick around until the task is completed, or the battle is won. They are not considered to be owned by any one trainer and Pokeballs do not seem to work on them. Due to their vast power, they can only be summoned once an adventure, and will leave if they are summoned for something that they deem does not require their assistance. Cosmog and Cosmoem are special exceptions, and will more offer moral support.


Anyways thoughts on this?


(Re:Toy's post, this is a mix of 2&3)
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Old 05-28-2017, 01:06 PM   #12
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What are you talking about Toy there's no preceding post from me ;p

I like Option 1.

Re: Lost

See Legendary tier lists are in general going to be horribly arbitrary. Mew is no rarer than Jirachi or Celebi. Tapus are allowed in competitions. There's canonically only one of each Tapu. There are canonically multiples of Lugia. Volcanion doesnt really fit in with the rest of the uncatchable legends at all- if anything it draws a parallel with Heatran, which is a full two tiers below it. Lake Trio there's canonically only one of each.

I could go on, but you get the point. There's no good way to do this, and at the end of the day even the most mundane, common Legendaries like Regirock and Moltres are still decidedly several rungs above your average Pokemon or even your typical Psuedo-Legendary in terms of lore, and it doesn't make sense to have any of them just outright capturable imo.

Realistically, I feel all legendaries should fall into the highest category- you summon max one legend per adventure, they can turn you down if they want, they cannot be caught or registered. If you want to differentiate between the Arceuses and the Articunos of the world, make it way easier to get the summon item for Articuno than Arceus.
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Old 05-28-2017, 01:08 PM   #13
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Old 05-28-2017, 01:15 PM   #14
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Proposal #3 has my vote, though we'd all have to agree on which legendaries should not be catchable. And we can't just put a blanket ban on mythicals, either- owning a Darkrai is considerably different than owning an Arceus, IMO. Here's my view on it;

Catchable: Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Raikou, Entei, Suicune, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Latias, Latios, Cresselia, Heatran, Regigigas, Darkrai, Shaymin, Victini, Diancie, Nihilego, Buzzwole, Pheromosa, Xurkitree, Celesteela, Kartana.

Uncatchable: Mewtwo, Mew, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Celebi, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Deoxys, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Manaphy, Arceus, Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Keldeo, Xerneas, Yveltal, Hoopa, Volcanion, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, Cosmog, Cosmoem, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma.

Undecided: Jirachi, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Meloetta, Genesect, Guzzlord, Magearna, Marshadow.

Obviously, a lot of this is going to be very subjective, but I don't think it'd be impossible for us to come to some sort of agreement.
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Old 05-28-2017, 03:18 PM   #15
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IF we did go that route, Shaymin, Regigigas, and Victini should both be uncatchable as well, and all undecideds should also be, too, with the exception of Marshadow as we quite frankly don't have enough information on this Pokemon yet to make a good call either way. I would be okay with the swords of justice being obtainable.

Other than that yeah I mean that list is pretty solid. Every Pokemon that could be obtained on that list has a solid canonical explanation as to why it can be caught by more than one person. And that's only if we went that route. For me the only two options are either this as a compromise, because it can canonically be pretty much explained, or no legendaries at all.

Anything else would be too crazy. I think simply having any other legendaries would be an instant Full Henderson, especially in the context of FB, which has a lot of mythos surrounding legendaries in various stories and zones.
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Old 05-28-2017, 03:22 PM   #16
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Something that Marion brought up in Discord - in whatever proposal we move forward with, we should probably consider that some Pokemon are just too massively important to ever bother with any one trainer in the Pokemon world. So, within your completely opinion based tierlists , probably consider that there should be a tier of "Unobtainable" Pokemon - something like Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, Kyogre, Groundon, Xerneas, and Yvetal for sure. Maybe Reshiram, Zekrom, Giratina, Rayquaza, Solgaleo, and Lunala too but wow it's like these lists are completely arbitrary or something. ;P
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Old 05-28-2017, 03:25 PM   #17
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There is proof of there being multiple Shaymins, so I'd say Shaymin is quite fine. Victini I'm on the fence on but MM's list is honestly the best compromise terms. I don't know how the movie will portray Marshadow but the Pokedex entries paint it as a very rare Pokemon due to them living in shadows, and don't really show them with any major powers.

Also I think there has been mention of multiple Swords of Justice as well?
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Old 05-28-2017, 03:30 PM   #18
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I'm with Lost and MM on this one for the most part; I'm not quite sold on the Ultra Beasts being catchable, but other than that I'm fine with either of their lists.
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Old 05-28-2017, 04:17 PM   #19
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Personally, I support Option 1 purely because I would prefer a FB where legendary Pokemon are given the power and narrative respect that they deserve. Any eventuality where a Pokemon described by the term "Legendary" is capturable diminishes and disrespects the overall power of legendary pokemon. These Pokemon are often massively powerful and world bending, even the most minor ones - Shaymin controls plant life and purifies the land, Registeel is a massive protector Pokemon made to defend an entire civilization from harm along with only two other Pokemon of the same power level. Manaphy is a god to the natives of the Minnao Isles, able to heal emotional bonds, control water, and helps the people in their lives.

I know there'll have to be compromise, but the only legendary Pokemon I can honestly see bonding with one and only one trainer to go registered or captured are the bird trio, the Eon duo, Heatran, Volcanion and maybe Shaymin and Diancie. Everyone else is either too important to the universe to bother with one trainer (Dialga), too powerful to let ZUs to successfully create reasonable challenges (Victini), or is a one-off that shouldn't be bound to a trainer (beasts, landorus). Or their name is Manaphy and I don't want the narrative of the Minnao Isles to be completely destroyed (oh yeah I caught your god, nice to meet you xoxo).
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Old 05-29-2017, 09:35 AM   #20
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Agreeing with Toy wholeheartedly.
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Old 05-30-2017, 06:04 PM   #21
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(gdi I had a semi-big post but lost it because I got logged out... ;-;)

TL;DR of what I wanted to say: My vote's on Option 1 w/ summoning items. I don't feel comfortable catching most legendaries because of either being OP, too important or too unique. Finding a compromise on which Pokémon can be caught or not would be very difficult as everyone got their own opinion/headcanon on which Pokémon are unique/OP/important.
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Last edited by OkikuMew; 05-31-2017 at 12:55 PM. Reason: I meant options 1, not 3 ;-;
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkikuMew View Post
Finding a compromise on which Pokémon can be caught or not would be very difficult as everyone got their own opinion/headcanon on which Pokémon are unique/OP/important.
Eh, sure not everyone's going to have exactly the same headcanons on which legendaries should be caught or summoned or neither, but from the way things are looking people are having roughly the same idea, and that may be all we need.
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini Spark View Post
Eh, sure not everyone's going to have exactly the same headcanons on which legendaries should be caught or summoned or neither, but from the way things are looking people are having roughly the same idea, and that may be all we need.
Sorry for not adding too much info on my point, as I was a little short of time ^^;

Yeah, there is some similarities, but looking from what I would prefer, there's some pretty good differences. So I would imagine that someone would have something like that as I am, so it could end up as having a big debate.

Just for reference, if we would go with Option 3, here would be my choices:


Capturable: Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Mew, Celebi, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Latios, Latias, Deoxys, Heatran, Phione, Shaymin, Vinctini, Diancie, Cosmog, Cosmoem, Solgaleo, Lunala, Type: Null, Ultra Beasts

Uncapturable (but can be summoned): Mewtwo, Raikou, Entei, Suicune, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Jirachi, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Regigigas, Manaphy, Arceus, Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, Tornadus, Thundurus, Reshiram, Zekrom, Landorus, Kyurem, Keldeo, Meloetta, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Hoopa, Magearna, Necrozma, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini

Debated/Unsure: Cresselia, Darkrai, Genesect, Volcanion, Marshadow


So although there is things that we can all (at least, so far) agree on, it's far from perfect. I find Mew and Celebi being capturable because I have a headcanon that there's multiple of them. I can't tolerate seeing Raikou, Entei and Suicune as capturable as they are unique imo. I don't find Lugia has multiples. Cosmog fits in the same bag (lol get in the bag Nebby!) as Mew. And for those that I'm not sure, it's mostly because I dunno it is considered that there's multiples or not.


But all that said, I would still prefer to have them all be possibly summoned through items but not capturable, just like Option 1. I have the feeling that it's gonna be a huge debate on which are capturable or not in the future, even if we sorta find a compromise now. (Not to mention there's those who opposes completely at capturing them.) Since most Pokémon are considered non-catchable, and pretty much all of them are really over-powered, it would be a lot more simple of just making them all non-capturable.
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