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Old 08-11-2016, 09:58 PM   #26
Talon87
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Sparkbeat's team is pretty good ... but now (or, at least, in lower OU) it keeps losing to Azumarill. Once the Belly Drum goes off, no one's a good answer. Everyone's OHKOed except for Keldeo, and Keldeo is OHKOed by Play Rough before it can do anything to Azumarill with Hydro Pump, Scald, Icy Wind, or Sacred Sword.

So I've gone ahead and done some Talon!changes again.

Changelog:
- replaced Grass Knot with Superpower on Tornadus-T
- replaced Life Orb with Expert Belt on Tornadus-T
- replaced Choice Band with Life Orb on Scizor
- replaced Superpower with Defog on Scizor
- replaced Raikou with Rotom-Wash

Spoiler: show
Raikou and Terrakion have been my two LVPs so far, and Raikou's problem is really that the one time he gets to shine STAB-wise he's impotent because BELLY DRUM AZUMARILL FUCK YEAH! ^^; So I'm hoping Rotom-Wash will fix that. Probably won't because Belly Drum is stupidly insane like that, but we'll see. I gave him enough Speed EVs to outspeed the Jolly variants, so hopefully two Volt Switches will be enough to take down any of the bunnies.

Tornadus-T is pretty great. But Life Orb is cutting his longevity short, even when you account for Regenerator. Entry hazards are a thing, attack damage is a thing, it all adds up. I can't be regenerating all of it away. Life Orb only adds on to the pile, making it that much more likely that Tornadus dies on a given turn instead of one turn later. That's bad. So I'm hoping that the downgrade from Life Orb (1.3x) to Expert Belt (1.2x on SE moves) won't hurt the calcs too badly, and that the regained life will prove worth it. We'll see.

Grass Knot was pretty neato in 2HKOing Tyranitar but that aside it's not been worth it. :\ And yeah, as was mentioned previously, it's absolute shit against Rotom-Wash. I thought it would at least do 20% HP damage, but it doesn't even do that. So if we're only really packing it for Tyranitar and Water/Grounds that I rarely see, I'm okay with replacing it with Superpower. Superpower can be there for Tyranitar (and other stuff! Bisharp, for example?), and if I decide I need Grass Knot back later we can look into it.

I didn't like how Scizor was choice locked. It's more palatable for Keldeo since he's a revenge killer, but Scizor rarely gets to revenge kill (as too many threats instantly run from him and too few switch-ins are weak to the same type). While Choice Band is cool for its ability to convert 2HKOs into OHKOs, I feel like I'd much rather be allowed to Knock Off and then Bullet Punch rather than Knock Off and then have to run away instantly. Good example of this is Clefable. I've had too many people call that my Scizor is banded (one guy I really don't even know how he could have) and switch their Clefables in as a check to my Scizor. What the hell. If only I could have switched to Bullet Punch right then, I would have been golden. But no. I'm forced to switch out, they know I'm forced to switch out, and they get a free Thunder Wave / Moonblast / Calm Mind in. It's ass. Scizor wouldn't have cared about any of those attacks. Call the Fire Blast bluff and one-hit or two-hit KO with Bullet Punch for the win.

With Superpower back on Tornadus, I'm removing it from Scizor in favor of OMG YES PLEASE GIVE ME DEFOG! T_T I've wanted this so badly. Too many lost battles to chumps who just flood the field with entry hazards because I'm parahaxed or keep missing. NO MORE!

We'll see how this works. The real big experiments are dropping Choice Band from Scizor (that power drop ...) and switching out Raikou for Rotom-Wash. If Rotom-Wash isn't doing anything for my Azumarill problem, I may have to look somewhere else.
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:06 PM   #27
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Keldeo should really be running HP Electric. It hits Azuzu, Gyarados, and Volcanion.
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:33 PM   #28
Talon87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Keldeo should really be running HP Electric. It hits Azuzu, Gyarados, and Volcanion.
On the one hand, not gonna lie: I have barely ever used Icy Wind.

On the other hand, theoretically it seems like a sweet answer to Dragonite (any health) and the Latis (weakened). I inherited it from Sparkbeat, Smogon says it's right up there with HP:Electric, and I didn't have the desire to replace it specifically with that.

I have looked into replacing it though. Pretty unhappy with a set that is 3/4 walled by just about anything Water type.
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:15 PM   #29
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You either get walled by Latis+Dnite, walled by waters, or don't have Scald. Generally people run what they're team has more problems with, and given your teams has two rock types I'd say you've got more water troubles then you do Lati+Dnite problems
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:42 AM   #30
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New personal best of Elo 1471 with the team. You can find the latest game here.

The team has undergone enough changes from Sparkbeat's at this point that I think it's worth it to re-copy and paste the export text from PS. So here goes:

Spoiler: show
Princess (Diancie-Mega) @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Earth Power

D'Artagnan (Keldeo-Resolute) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Secret Sword
- Scald
- Icy Wind

Andrew (Tornadus-Therian) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- U-turn

Porthos (Terrakion) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- X-Scissor

Hassan (Scizor) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Defog

Karma (Rotom-Wash) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 240 HP / 226 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

A few new changes since last night:
  • replaced Focus Sash with Choice Scarf on Terrakion
  • replaced Stealth Rock with Iron Head on Terrakion
  • replaced Taunt with X-Scissor on Terrakion
  • replaced Hydro Pump with HP:Electric on Keldeo
I gave Focus Sash Terrakion a try. Really, I did. But in the end, he just plain isn't worth it. The sash is broken too easily even with Defog on the team, and then he's basically itemless. He's much too fragile to endure hits without it, so it's back to the "kill or be killed" basics of speed wars -- and that means Choice Scarf is a nice option to ensure he's the one getting to do the killing. While it sucks to be locked, and while it sucks even harder that Terrakion doesn't have access to a U-Turn-like move, the coverage provided by Steel, Rock, Fighting, and Bug is pretty nice. Bug is there for two principal threats: Celebi and Serperior. It's not that I've had problems with either of these, but I've had plenty of neutral situations which could've been much more advantageous for me had I had access to X-Scissor and a speed boost. I'm perfectly happy to replace the move with Earthquake or Poison Jab should either prove worth it, but for right now I think X-Scissor might honestly be the best. Iron Head already hits Clefable (Poison Jab target), Azumarill's already outspeeding with priority Aqua Jet (the only other reason to go with Poison Jab), and honestly Ground doesn't afford that much relevant coverage that Rock and Fighting together do not already hit. Mega Manectric's about the only thing I can think of right now.

I hate Hydro Pump's 20% inaccuracy and "measly" 110 base power, so it's what got the boot in favor of HP:Electric. Not Icy Wind, which I still see being a really clutch, really niche answer to the threat of DD Dragonite. Not Scald, which is more reliable. And not Secret Sword, which is super useful. I have yet to benefit from HP:Electric's addition to the team, but I also have yet to suffer for Hydro Pump's absence. So we'll see. We'll test it out, see what works.
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Old 08-12-2016, 11:12 AM   #31
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I'd suggest dropping Iron Head, which hits Clefable for 160 when Stone Edge already hits for 150, with Quick attack just in case you ever come across a low hp Azu or Talonflame with Terrak. Also, I'd suggest Band over Scarf because having two scarfers isn't really worth and the boost in power is always welcome

You're going to miss Hydro on Keld. The 30 increase in BP will make the difference imo.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:50 PM   #32
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@Roto's comment from the last page: You obviously don't understand by nonsensical yet eternal hatred for bulky Water types.

I'd recommend that if you're going to change Terrakion's set, that you look for a replacement altogether. Basically, the entire reason I was using him was to lead, hopefully block their lead from setting up Rocks with Taunt, get my own Rocks almost 100% of the time, and then just hit shit until he dies. Really the only times I didn't suicide with him were when he had the potential to just rip apart another team, or if they were leading with something like Weavile can could KO him before he got rocks up with Fake Out + Low Kick. Obviously, if they let me get rocks up without breaking my sash and had switched in something like Scizor, I'd take the opportunity to switch, but most of the time it was Taunt -> Rocks -> Whack something -> Die. If you're not wanting to use him for this purpose, I'd give another offensive Stealth Rock user the slot (maybe Lando-T or Garchomp, idk which would be better) or give Terrakion a wall breaking / sweeping set. Or, if you'd rather him be your scarfer over Keldeo, you could give the pony Specs or something to let him do the wallbreaking.

Last edited by Sparkbeat; 08-12-2016 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:14 PM   #33
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Text.

Spoiler: show
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotomotorz View Post
I'd suggest dropping Iron Head, which hits Clefable for 160 when Stone Edge already hits for 150, with Quick attack just in case you ever come across a low hp Azu or Talonflame with Terrak.
Noted. But I like the flinch hax opportunity, as well as the 100% accuracy. Like pretty much everything here, I'm willing to give things a try before tossing them out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotomotorz View Post
Also, I'd suggest Band over Scarf because having two scarfers isn't really worth and the boost in power is always welcome
Ehhhhhh ... you really can't underestimate the value of speed in Pokémon. I can't agree with your stance. Not as a blanket position, anyway. I think there can be and have been definite times in OU history where there was merit to running two or more Choice Scarved Pokémon. It may not be the answer for this team, and that I'm willing to explore. But I'm likewise just as willing to explore how well it does/might work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotomotorz View Post
You're going to miss Hydro on Keld. The 30 increase in BP will make the difference imo.
No, I don't think I am. ^^; I don't think you realize how deeply I am on Team Flamethrower, in the ancient war of ideals between Team Flamethrower and Team Fire Blast that dates back to Gen 1. The ancient war between a move that's 100% accurate and 75% powerful vs. a move that's 85% accurate and 100% powerful. (Using Gen 1 numbers. The war has only shifted all the more in Team Flamethrower's favor since then.) Smogon's upper brass have long been members of Team Fire Blast, and their articles waste no opportunities to extoll the virtues of running Fire Blast or Hydro Pump over Flamethrower or Surf (now Scald).

I'll end up agreeing with you though if I end up going Choice Specs Keldeo. (See below.) Then I'll agree with you that it's worth it to have Hydro Pump. Until then ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkbeat View Post
I'd recommend that if you're going to change Terrakion's set, that you look for a replacement altogether.
Hnnnnnmmmm ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkbeat View Post
Basically, the entire reason I was using him was to lead, hopefully block their lead from setting up Rocks with Taunt, get my own Rocks almost 100% of the time, and then just hit shit until he dies. Really the only times I didn't suicide with him were when he had the potential to just rip apart another team, or if they were leading with something like Weavile can could KO him before he got rocks up with Fake Out + Low Kick. Obviously, if they let me get rocks up without breaking my sash and had switched in something like Scizor, I'd take the opportunity to switch, but most of the time it was Taunt -> Rocks -> Whack something -> Die.
See, it would be nice if I had had your experience. I didn't. In the experience I had, Terrakion was never a good lead:
  • 30% of all opponents run Landorus-T
  • 90% of those 30%, they all lead with Landorus-T
So right off the bat, I'd say a good 25% of the games I played in, Terrakion became a horribad choice for a lead. Sometimes I'd tempt fate and send him out as my lead anyway -- and lol, no, they totally led with Landorus -- and other times I'd not tempt fate, maybe I'd even counter-lead, and they'd still sure enough lead with Landorus-T. It made it so that I was better off leading with Keldeo or Tornadus every chance I got.

What about the rest?
  • 70% of opponents don't run Landorus-T
  • but those 70%, 90%+ of them will lead with something that still bones Terrakion
Maybe it's Mach Punch Breloom. Maybe it's Life Orb Weavile. Maybe it's any and every Ferrothorn.

People expect the Terrakion lead.

And that makes leading with Terrakion bad.

Which means Focus Sash Terrakion is being saved for later ...

And now he either a) can't enter the field until Defog has been used, putting pressure on me to get Scizor out there somehow and use Defog, or else he b) enters the field anyway but his Sash gets broken and now he has no item benefits whatsoever.

No matter how you look at it, Focus Sash Terrakion is dumb for me. For my experience. Because even you agree, he's only smart as a suicide lead. But like I'm explaining, even as a suicide lead he sucks donkey balls in my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkbeat View Post
If you're not wanting to use him for this purpose, I'd give another offensive Stealth Rock user the slot (maybe Lando-T or Garchomp, idk which would be better) or give Terrakion a wall breaking / sweeping set. Or, if you'd rather him be your scarfer over Keldeo, you could give the pony Specs or something to let him do the wallbreaking.
Remember, I tried leading off this experiment with the Rock Polish set. It didn't work. He never gets an opportunity to set up. He's too fragile. He has to go on the offensive immediately. As for a wall-breaking set, Swords Dance has the same problem as Rock Polish, and Choice Band is imo less valuable here than Choice Scarf. Giving a bazooka a Choice Band is just obscene. Cool! But obscene. Giving a bazooka a Choice Scarf ensures I have a fighting chance against DDNite, Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Nidoking, and others. It's all about outspeeding others who thought they'd won the speed war at +1 speed. That is what it is all about.

Now, if that proves not to be worth it ... if it proves to not work ... well then sure, I'll scrap it. But for right now, I want to try it out.

Which brings us back to roto and his comment about Choice Specs Keldeo. Roto was saying that if I'm going to run Scarf Terrakion that I should consider running Specs Keldeo (because no need for two scarves). While I disagree with his assertion that 2+ scarves is bad, I might very well explore the Specs-Scarf combo in the near future. We'll see! For right now, I like the idea of Keldeo being Answer Part I to DDNite and Terrakion then cleaning up as Answer Part II.

All of this said, I'm just replying to you guys with thoughts from my head. I haven't had a chance to battle even once since I last posted here. And I believe in the importance of battles for settling these sorts of disagreements. So I guess what I'll say is, let me see for myself that I am wrong if I am wrong. And let me see for ourselves that I am right if I am right. Either way, it's a good learning experience for me.
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Old 08-12-2016, 10:10 PM   #34
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@The Lando-T thing: Usually, I'd just Taunt to prevent rocks, then put down my own, and that was all Terrakion did. The only set that really prevented Terrakion from doing what it had to do was Scarf sets, since they could 2HKO and outspeed, and I would usually blow a turn Taunting since I don't want to risk it not being scarfed and getting rocks up. So yeah, Lando-T makes Terrakion a lot less useful, so I can see why you'd want to avoid that considering how popular Lando-T is. But, in most instances, Terrak still gets the baseline of his job done.
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:47 AM   #35
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Since the last time we talked, I haven't had much time or motivation to play any competitive Pokémon on PS. Work, breeding Pokémon for a coworker, and Ace Attorney 5 soaked up most of my time. But I have squeezed in a couple of battles here or there, so I thought I would offer a brief status update and open the floor to discussion.

When I last signed off, I was somewhere in the low 1500s. I was content. I had made it at least as far as you guys reported taking the team. When I signed back in, it was to help offset Elo deterioration, the sort that happens whenever you go away from the site for too long. Well, I lost. And then I lost again. And then I won. And then I lost again. Eventually things sorta stabilized, but where they stabilized I was quite unhappy -- the 1430s. I've played maybe a grand total of ten games since the last post, but the highest I've gotten in those ten games is around 1480.

There were two major thorns in my side:

The first thorn is Mega Venusaur. Consider my team and the match-ups vs. Mega Venusaur:
  • Mega Diancie: utterly walled by Venusaur; decimated by Giga Drain
  • Terrakion: walled, best bet for him being Stone Edge; destroyed by Giga Drain
  • Keldeo: utterly walled; destroyed by Giga Drain
  • Rotom-W: utterly walled; destroyed by Giga Drain
  • Scizor: walled, best bet for him being U-Turn; decimated by HP:Fire
  • Tornadus-T: decimates with Hurricane; isn't really "destroyed" by anything Venusaur has
Everyone is either OHKO'd or handily 2HKO'd by a combination of Fire and Grass moves, except for Tornadus-T. So all the Mega Venusaur user has to do is, sacrifice 2-3 Pokémon in a deliberate bid to take out my Tornadus-T, take out my Tornadus-T, and then wreck face with Mega Venusaur. I can't reliably kill Venusaur with Tornadus ... because they just call Venusaur back for something else. It sucks. It sucks hardcore.

So I decided to take your guys' advice about scrapping Terrakion, and I replaced him with Mega Metagross. My thinking was, there are an awful lot of games where I don't get to bring in Diancie and mega her (or that by the time I do it's too late and I lose), so maybe double megas is the way to go for my team. :o Maybe I can have Mega Diancie for those games where I'd win with her and then Mega Metagross for those games where I can't win with her. Well ...

Enter Magnezone, the second thorn in my side. With Terrakion out of the way, suddenly I saw not one single Venusaur, I shit you not, and three Magnezone in back to back matches. And I lost two of the three, and should have lost the third but for how he battled. But fuck me, man ...
  • Mega Diancie: has Earth Power to decimate Magnezone, but Magnezone always calls it and runs away to a solid Diancie check; bit by bit the team gets whittled down
  • Tornadus-T: has Superpower and Heat Wave, but neither OHKOs whereas Magnezone easily OHKOs Tornadus. It's a bad match-up for me.
  • Keldeo: has Secret Sword, but too often Magnezone is paired up with Dragonite and other Pokémon that are very happy to set up on choice-locked Secret Sword
  • Mega Metagross: boned by Magnezone; I didn't have Earthquake, and Magnezone is just too powerful
  • Scizor: utterly wrecked by HP:Fire Magnezone; usually outspeeds, even when not Choice Scarf'd, so even U-Turn isn't an option (as I found in my two losses )
  • Rotom-W: a really bad match-up vs. Magenzone, as Magnezone usually comes out on top in the damage war and Rotom-W is too important a pivot for my team to be losing so early
It's not as bad as the situation with Mega Venusaur, but it's still pretty bad. My team still has a de facto crippling weakness to Magnezone. (SO HOW COME I COULDN'T USE HIM THIS WELL!? *sigh*) Soooo ...

I kinda feel like I'm back to the drawing board. I feel like, while the team of mostly legendaries performs decently well, it lacks the sort of cohesion and "core-ness" you find in better teams. The biggest problem I'm having with the team is ... I almost never have safe switches. It's almost always a Russian roulette game of prediction, where making the wrong call means I lose the game right then and there. Example: I have Tornadus-T out vs. the Mega Venusaur, and I have to either Hurricane or U-Turn. I choose to Hurricane, he switched Venusaur out first and I lose the match. I choose to U-Turn, he called it and chose to stay put and Giga Drains and I lose the match still. It happens either way, and I hate it. I am usually very, very good at the prediction game, so I don't think that's the source of the problem. I really feel it's the team's own lack of safe switch-ins in a good number of circumstances I keep finding myself in.

For now, I've replaced Mega Metagross with Heatran. But Heatran's still got problems of his own, I'm re-finding. He's not nearly as bulky as I'd like him to be. I think I might have to switch tactics from the more offensive Lava Plume / Flash Cannon variant to one of the more defensive variants. Or I might just not want him period. We'll see.

Current Elo: 1465 (haven't played in two days)
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Old 08-28-2016, 08:50 PM   #36
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Current Elo is 1528. New PB. The latest game is here.

All of my thoughts from last time still apply and have yet to really be acted on (as you can see). Newly surfacing is an irritation with Scizor. He's just too slow. Even against middleweights like Rotom-Wash and Volcanion, he's just way too slow. Low speed, low bulk ... all he has going for him is high attack and a Steel-type priority move. He rarely has opportune switch-ins. Without them, he's just dead weight.
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Old 08-28-2016, 09:29 PM   #37
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The Reflect change was not noted in this thread, but damn that looked sexy in game.
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Old 08-28-2016, 09:59 PM   #38
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Reflect is filler. Difference in playstyles means I never used Pain Split. Reflect I at least use, albeit rarely. I wish he had a better move to put in that fourth slot, but he really doesn't. Maybe Thunderbolt, for those rare cases where I want to kill with electricity but also not switch out.
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