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Old 06-06-2016, 04:32 PM   #51
Mercutio
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I'd rather get rid of the limit on recovery moves than limit refresh, honestly.
Also, why do we want to make Shadow Ball not AoE? ASB needs more AoE.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:36 PM   #52
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Also if you're using Shadow Ball going first as a Ghost you're doing something wrong.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:38 PM   #53
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Also if you're using Shadow Ball going first as a Ghost you're doing something wrong.
Maybe, idk, you want to do noticeable damage? The next best move is Shadow Claw, which is melee range, or Ominous Wind, which is piss-poor.

The point is, why is it Ghosts have to deal with their main STAB choice being able to backfire super-effectively on themselves and no other type does?
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:46 PM   #54
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(It is perfectly possibly to order Ghost type moves going first if you know what you're doing but that is not the issue here)
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Old 06-06-2016, 05:00 PM   #55
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As opposed to making Shadow Ball no longer AoE, I'd rather make a slew of moves AoE along WITH Shadow Ball for the sake of diversifying attacks. If other people like the sound of that I'll go through all the attacks and come up with some good candidates.
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Old 06-06-2016, 05:01 PM   #56
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Maybe, idk, you want to do noticeable damage? The next best move is Shadow Claw, which is melee range, or Ominous Wind, which is piss-poor.

The point is, why is it Ghosts have to deal with their main STAB choice being able to backfire super-effectively on themselves and no other type does?
Dragon types do as well. It is easy to order around Bide. It really is. I don't see why it is becoming an issue.

Edit: Oh we moved on from Bide. My point still stands. Bide is fine.
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Old 06-06-2016, 06:04 PM   #57
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It was less a point on Bide and more a point on don't order splash damage moves going first it's not smart.
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Old 06-06-2016, 06:05 PM   #58
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Why does it need to be splash damage in the first place though? That is the point I'm raising.
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Old 06-06-2016, 06:07 PM   #59
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AoE is good and leads to actual thoughtful play instead of just turreting.

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Old 06-06-2016, 06:15 PM   #60
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Since Kush and Sneaze seem to like AoE, I made a list of some moves that could be a list of AoE moves if people want it. Some are legend moves that won't see much use, and some others are already AoE/something similar (like Energy Ball and Barrage) but I think it's a decent comprehensive list of moves that based on how they currently work would function as AoE well.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:05 PM   #61
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Different topic, about something that seems to be out of place.

The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas


Growth (NO) -- Using decent energy, the user draws energy from light in the arena or other ambient energy, boosting their special attack and attack, as well as making their moves charge slightly faster. In strong sunlight or similar circumstances, its potency is doubled.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
This is too much boom for very little energy.

The proposed changes
Since this attack is getting work up on crack, the energy usage should probably double under sun. It should not be boosting charge time, but if it does then it should likely tire out the user quicker to balance that out. It has proven to be broken in the past, and allowed Jeri to get a bit too much against Dave's Volbeat one year ago.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:08 PM   #62
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Requiring excess energy when something requires weather is bad and should feel bad.

That said, the move is super vague and could use specifics pretty much on every part of it.
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Old 06-07-2016, 05:09 AM   #63
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Sorry for not following the normal format but i wasnt really sure on how to work it into the normal format.

Entry Hazards
Quote from Jeri in the recent Sig Guidelines
Entry hazard can only have a single effect, be it damage, a status, a boost or drop or a similar effect. They must be clearable by conventional hazard clearing moves and be directly targetable and destroyable by moves of good or greater damage.

I know stealth rock can be destroyed by directly targeting it, but good damage is a little bit low in my opinion. Stealth rocks and other entry hazards are far from game breaking like they are in comp. Not a lot of pokemon even care if stealth rocks is up, is going to hit you for moderate damage if its neutral and considerable if its 2x effective, which is barely anything in the long run. They cost significant energy to set up as well. On top of that defog and rapid spin are fairly well spread, defog being on close to 50 fully evolved mons and rapid spin about 20.

I have two suggestions. The first is we make it that hazard moves are as strong as the energy used to create them, that way they atleast become more efficient. The other is we totally remove the ability to directly target them and limit there removal to the attacks designed to remove them being rapid spin and defog.
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Old 06-07-2016, 06:02 AM   #64
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Remove the clause which says they can be targeted by any attacks and have Stealth Rock and other Signature entry hazards be removable necessarily by Defog and Rapid Spin. Make Stealth Rock able to be destroyed by opposing, targeted Bulldoze as well because frankly it makes good conceptual sense and honestly I quite liked that we gave Bulldoze another purpose beyond 'damaging Screech'.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:27 AM   #65
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Was gonna comment but then I realized Connor stated my thoughts exactly. Go Connor!
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:50 AM   #66
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I'm with austo here, entry hazards are really underused in ASB. Make them as tough as the energy used, with the stipulation that Bulldoze breaks them (Probably in the Bulldoze descript).
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:32 PM   #67
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No, really absolutely under no circumstances raise the actual damage they deal. Unless what you're arguing is to keep them being able to be targeted by any attacks but requiring Significant damage to break. In which case just go with what I argued, it makes them better.
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Old 06-11-2016, 07:57 AM   #68
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The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Substitute (NO) -- The user creates a copy of itself. Its trainer first specifies a power level between good and extreme (the default level is significant) and the user sacrifices that amount of health and 1.25x that amount of energy to form the copy. The copy will have the amount of health sacrificed to create it and will fade once this is depleted. Upon creating the copy, the user tricks opponents in to focusing on it and prevents them from deliberately targeting their true location under any circumstances. The user will move around to avoid attacks automatically, though indirect or arena wide damage such as Hail or Earthquake may still affect both the copy and the user. The user will still perform attacks - the Substitute is simply a very convincing distraction. The copy is immune to all status conditions. Maintaining the copy costs no energy but sustained usage will cause the user to become fatigued at a faster rate than normal.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

This offers way too much efficiency. If you can specify an exact amount of health, your opponent can simply specify just barely enough to prevent an attack breaking it (leaving the Substitute with a minor worth of health or so) and then they block the next attack in it's entirety. While it's true they sacrifice health and energy to do so, the fact remains that there is still a discrepancy heavily in their favour.

The proposed changes

Switch it back to what it used to be, with it being variable charge in the same vein as Hyper Beam (quick, medium, full). Can I also ask why the current energy usage is only x1.25? Is it to make sure full charge Substitute isn't too debilitating to energy? It feels awkward for a Quick Substitute to cost Good health and essentially Solid energy.
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:08 AM   #69
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*bitter mumbling*
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:24 AM   #70
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You know it's absurd.
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:26 AM   #71
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Substitute is idiotic from the ground up.
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Old 06-11-2016, 05:32 PM   #72
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Bestow (NO) -- The user uses moderate energy to give an attached item to another Pokémon. The user ceases to benefit from the effects of its item for five rounds. During this time, the target Pokémon gains the effects. The user can also hand over items such as Tropius's fruit for no energy cost. Mega Stones are not affected by this move.

As it is, Tokens either really suck, or are type-locked. And I'm pretty sure Attachable Badges have been ruled to not be subject to most item moves (though not sure if Bestow specifically is officially covered under that). So, what I propose is to also allow it to use some energy, say, good-significant or so, and gift it to another Pokemon on the field, giving them that much energy restoration, helping slightly with short-term exhaustion, but having little to no impact on exhaustion in the longer term. Makes it a better support move and better for Doubled.

_____

Muddy Water (GD/WT) -- The user shoots out a very powerful, but dirty, stream of water, which does considerable damage and might lower the opponent(s) accuracy if it hits in their eyes. Since it is both Ground and Water, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Poison, Steel, Ground, Electric, Rock and Fire types, while being resisted by Water, Dragon, Grass and Bug types. The damage from Muddy Water will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon. This move uses considerable Ground and Water energy.

Sludge Wave (PO/WA) --The user issues a huge watery wave of toxic sludge, washing over the foe for significant damage. The large size of the wave allows it to hit multiple targets at once. This attack has a 10% chance of poisoning. Since it uses half Poison and half Water energy, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Fire and Fairy, while being resisted by Dragon, Ghost, Poison and Water. Steel types are considered resistant in the same way they resist moves such as Sludge Bomb. The damage from Sludge Wave will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon.This move uses significant Poison and Water energy.

Flying Press (FT/FL) - The user leaps into the air, coming down on top of the target with its full weight, dealing considerable damage. Since this move is half Flying and half Fighting, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective damage to Normal, Fighting, Ice, Dark and Grass Pokeémon and resisted damage to Electric, Flying, Poison, Psychic and Fairy Pokeémon. The damage from Flying Press will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon. This move uses considerable Flying and Fighting energy.

Dragon Rage (Various) -- The user summons a powerful attack which is dependent on the arena. If there is water present between the two Pokeémon, the user summons a spiral of energy, which is quickly sent at the opponent, sucking up the water in the arena to deal significant Water-typed damage for significant energy. If there isn't water, it's a large fireball which deals heavy damage in a mix of dragon and fire energy, dealing Super Effective damage on Bug, Grass and Ice-types and Not Very Effective damage on Fire and Fairy types. This move uses considerable Dragon and Fire energy.The fireball may be used in an aqueous environment, but the water version is arena-dependent.

Putting aside the fact that having them use 100% of each type's energy instead of something more reasonable like 66%-75%, there's a different problem. By exact wording, these moves cost double the energy than they do damage. There really needs to be a not that while they work to deplete both energy pools, the total energy from the overall energy pool actually used is equivalent to the move's power.

______

And I was not sure if I should C/P all the smoke, mist, fog, spore etc moves (I will if I need to), or the Glossary's entry pn wind moves, so I decided the latter because less copypasta

Wind Attacks - Attacks involving wind and air interact with Screens and other similar defensive techniques depending on a variety of factors. Moves that are primarily air-based (generally, Flying-typed wind attacks, such as Razor Wind, Air Cutter or Gust) tend to be fairly "solid", meaning that they will be resisted by Reflect but will break through Light Screen, while energy-based wind attacks (such as Silver Wind, Fairy Wind, Ominous Wind, etc.) will be easily blocked by Light Screen but will break through a Reflect. Ice-based winds fall somewhere between these two categories, being partially absorbed by either screen while still weakening them significantly, due to their blend of forceful wind, energy, and in the case of Blizzard, actual ice. Despite this variability, all wind attacks are boosted by moves that boost Special Attack.

My pain beef is prety much that gasses and fogs should be noted to be not super easy to blow away except by moves at least ~Twister level of power, or maybe a bit higher, or moves like Gust and Defog and possibly Whirlwind, moves whose job is to do such things. Bur a Fairy Wind should not be blowing away a fresh Smokescreen. I think it should end up noted either in the glossary and/or the move scripts

_____

Mean Look (NO) --Using good energy, the user glares at the opponent, covering it in a blue glow for a moment which quickly fades. This move makes the victim unable to be recalled until it has fainted, including with the use of switching moves like Baton Pass. It also can intimidate the opponent in a fashion similar to Leer.

This needs to have an expiration time and also to have noted it fades if you user switches out conventionally

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Old 06-11-2016, 05:46 PM   #73
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>Putting aside the fact that having them use 100% of each type's energy instead of something more reasonable like 66%-75%, there's a different problem. By exact wording, these moves cost double the energy than they do damage. There really needs to be a not that while they work to deplete both energy pools, the total energy from the overall energy pool actually used is equivalent to the move's power.

Where were you for the discussion? I think there is a 1 month period before bringing up moves that were just rewritten or something to that effect.

Two uses is what we discussed is fair, three becomes too potent. They use considerable energy, but consume considerable offtype for both. Under standard conditions, that is enough for two uses
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Old 06-11-2016, 05:51 PM   #74
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>Putting aside the fact that having them use 100% of each type's energy instead of something more reasonable like 66%-75%, there's a different problem. By exact wording, these moves cost double the energy than they do damage. There really needs to be a not that while they work to deplete both energy pools, the total energy from the overall energy pool actually used is equivalent to the move's power.

Where were you for the discussion? I think there is a 1 month period before bringing up moves that were just rewritten or something to that effect.

Two uses is what we discussed is fair, three becomes too potent. They use considerable energy, but consume considerable offtype for both. Under standard conditions, that is enough for two uses
That is what he is trying to say, at the moment it doesnt read as consuming offtype, it reads as consuming a total of over a hyperbeam of energy.
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Old 06-11-2016, 06:32 PM   #75
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Good points on Mean Look.
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