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Old 05-06-2016, 08:53 PM   #26
Jerichi
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To be honest I think when I rewrote Slack Off, energy was treated pretty differently and it needs to be updated. I'll take another look at it and reevaluate. It would probably help if it reset mental state as well, but I think it needs to keep up with the times re: exhaustion.

That said, we really need to have a League-wide talk about exhaustion because that's really gotten out of control again but this is neither the place nor the time.
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:43 PM   #27
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The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Glare (NO) -- Using decent energy, the user gives the opponent a look that, upon eye contact, freezes the target in place for a few seconds.
Leer (NO) -- Using light energy, the user stares the opponent down, and when eye contact occurs, the opponent becomes completely immobile, as though under the effect of a Glare attack, though only for 2 or 3 seconds, while the user can escape or prepare an attack. The accuracy of this attack depends on the distance apart the two Pokémon are, as there needs to be close to moderate range for this attack to work.
Scary Face (NO) -- The user makes a face that scares the target, causing them to move and act slowly and cautiously as they watch for attacks from all sides. If the opponent could not reasonably be scared of the user, this attack will fail. If the Pokémon is not naturally intimidating, they may use decent energy to enhance their features with glowing eyes and project a larger image of their face.

Screech (NO) -- The user screeches at a very high pitch, irritating the opponent and making it lose concentration. This has a high chance to interrupt the actions of Pokémon in the area as they move to cover their ears. Screech uses decent energy.
Metal Sound (ST) -- The user makes a loud ping noise, irritating the opponent and making it lose concentration. This has a good chance to interrupt the actions of Pokémon in the area as they move to cover their ears. Despite being less potent than Screech, Metal Sound's effects last for a little while longer after it has stopped, possibly causing a loud ringing in the foe's ears which can last a round and make reacting to threats more difficult. Metal Sound uses decent energy.

Baby-Doll Eyes (FA) - The user opens their eyes wide, sending forth a wave of calming magical energy using mild energy. This attack discourages the foe from attacking the user directly, decreasing the effectiveness of their physical attacks. This lasts until the user attacks the foe. Baby-Doll Eyes, like Fake Tears, may also make the opponent reconsider attacking. The victim's mental state and the current battle must be taken into account, and repeat uses are highly unlikely to interrupt.
Fake Tears (DK) -- Using moderate energy, the user pretends to cry, which may leave the victim(s) open to being attacked. Success rate is akin to Charm, in that the victim's mental state and the current battle must be taken into account.
Charm (FA) -- Using mild energy, the user makes itself look meek and vulnerable, attempting to look as cute and helpless as possible. The success of this move is dependent on a number of factors, including the cuteness of the user, the aggressiveness and mental state of the foe and the overall course of the battle. If successful, it will cause the foe to be hesitant to attack and reduce its Attack drastically until struck with an offensive move.


The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
Well looking back on this more closely the problem is less severe then I originally thought but the problem still stands somewhat. We have quite a few moves that are very close to carbon copys of each other. I might be the only one bothered by this but I know we should be encouraging alternate styles of play but that isnt supported by multiple moves that do such similar things. On the other hand it seems like we have a lot less moves that directly debuff stats than it would seem and it seems like the usefulness of these is bigger than one would expect because an awful lot of sigs involve stat drops. However some of these moves like screech or charm have niches that are unique to asb and should not be removed completely.

The proposed changes
Change leer, scary face, metal sound, baby doll eyes, and fake tears back into the stat lowerers they originally were rather than carbon copys of glare, screech and charm. Or possibly give them lesser versions of the effects with greater emphasis on stat lowering.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:14 AM   #28
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The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Substitute (NO) -- The user creates a copy of itself. Its trainer first specifies a power level between good and extreme (the default level is significant) and the user sacrifices that amount of health and 1.25x that amount of energy to form the copy. The copy will have the amount of health sacrificed to create it and will fade once this is depleted. Upon creating the copy, the user tricks opponents in to focusing on it and prevents them from deliberately targeting their true location under any circumstances. The user will move around to avoid attacks automatically, though indirect or arena wide damage such as Hail or Earthquake may still affect both the copy and the user. The copy is immune to all status conditions. Maintaining the copy costs no energy but sustained usage will cause the user to become fatigued at a faster rate than normal.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
It is missing something from the old one that is creating the same repeated question to pop up.

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Old!Substitute (NO) -- The user creates a copy of itself, which takes the place of the user. This body double will suffer the brunt of any attacks an opponent makes until it falls apart, since Substitute also allows the user to mentally implant a misperception in all opponents that the Substitute is the actual pokémon it was built by. The opposing trainer cannot successfully order their pokémon to hit the real" pokémon because their pokémon has a mental block against realising that Substitute has been used. While the user of Substitute is not immune to harm, affected pokémon can only harm the user by sheer accident, since they cannot deliberately aim at it. However, nonintelligent sources of damage, such as arena damage and effects that cover the entire arena (no normal attack covers the whole arena) will hit both the user and the Substitute at full damage if the user and Sub are in the affected area. The substitute performs all of the attacks as a normal Pokémon would. The user will move around to avoid all attacks, not needing to be ordered separately. However, when the substitute is ordered to attack, the user must fully concentrate on the transfer of orders. If the user is asleep, the Substitute will also be asleep, thanks to that same mind link. When Substitute is ordered, an amount of health between an FC and QC Hyper Beam, is specified (if none is specified, the equivalent of an MC Hyper Beam is the standard). The user will then sacrifice that amount of health to create the Substitute along with x1.5 the energy of the amount of health sacrificed. This Substitute will have the amount of health sacrificed to create it, but will take energy directly from the user. Though the Sub will not reflect the energy exhaustion that a normal pokémon would, it will cause the user to become increasingly exhausted. Once the Substitute runs out of health or the user becomes too tired to maintain the mental link (extreme moves or multiple, high energy moves without rest will often cause this), the Substitute will fade.


The proposed changes

Edit: Sneaze just said in the Q/A that it is the user that attacks. Can we clarify who attacks?

Last edited by Aposteriori; 05-14-2016 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 05-14-2016, 01:02 PM   #29
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The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Extreme Speed (XX) -- The user consumes a significant amount of energy to move as quickly as it possibly can, striking the opponent for solid physical damage, which is boosted thanks to the increased momentum. Extremespeed is faster and more powerful than Quick Attack, but uses a lot more energy.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
Some of the wording contradicts the way people ref it


The proposed changes

The attack should mention the momentum being hard to control, so shifting and turning should come at a cost to power. Just some rewording to ensure that refs are not granting too much boon to this particularly great move.
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Old 05-14-2016, 07:22 PM   #30
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Additionally clarify that certain, naturally nimble Pokemon (Arcanine, Lucario) will be inherently better at using it due to their inherent agility.
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Old 05-14-2016, 08:04 PM   #31
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>Connor

Seems like that should really just be denoted in the SCs of:
Lucario
Pikachu
Entei
Raikou
Suicune
Zigzagoon
Linoone
Raichu (?)
Arcanine (?)

Keeps people from tossing some line about being nimble into their Dragonite signature (or, alternatively, giving an awesome and nimble mon like Flygon Extreme Speed via sig) and running wild. Though if that's too much work putting it in the descript is surely better than nothing.
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Old 05-15-2016, 12:52 AM   #32
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I feel like that sort of thing is a but refs interpretation. A good referee will take that sort of thing into account and I'm almost certain dragonite's entire line has something about not being very agile as well as the dragon type characteristics stating something amount not being as agile/nimble
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:23 AM   #33
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Okay I've given ya'll an extra week I'm gonna close now and go through the threads.
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Old 05-15-2016, 11:04 AM   #34
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Slack Off (NO) -- The user takes a break, entering a relaxed state in order to regain energy at a fast rate. After about half a round of time, it will restore an extreme amount of energy, after which the user will automatically focus up, feeling refreshed and energetic. While in this state, the Pokémon is still aware of its surroundings and its foe and can break out of this state early (though they will restore less energy as a consequence). Pokémon will generally be able to react to oncoming attacks even in this state, but will have a slower reaction time and reacting to attacks may cause the overall energy restored to be lower in spite of having taken the whole time. This move will also reset the user's mental state and make them slightly more resistant to mental or emotional effects for the next few rounds.

Oh this was definitely a Kush rewrite lol. I already don't really like how I rewrote roost sooooooo this is all you're gonna get sorry.

Muddy Water (GD/WT) -- The user shoots out a very powerful, but dirty, stream of water, which does considerable damage and might lower the opponent(s) accuracy if it hits in their eyes. Since it is both Ground and Water, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Poison, Steel, Ground, Electric, Rock and Fire types, while being resisted by Water, Dragon, Grass and Bug types. The damage from Muddy Water will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon. This move uses considerable Ground and Water energy.

Sludge Wave (PO/WA) --The user issues a huge watery wave of toxic sludge, washing over the foe for significant damage. The large size of the wave allows it to hit multiple targets at once. This attack has a 10% chance of poisoning. Since it uses half Poison and half Water energy, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Fire and Fairy, while being resisted by Dragon, Ghost, Poison and Water. Steel types are considered resistant in the same way they resist moves such as Sludge Bomb. The damage from Sludge Wave will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon.This move uses significant Poison and Water energy.

Flying Press (FT/FL) - The user leaps into the air, coming down on top of the target with its full weight, dealing considerable damage. Since this move is half Flying and half Fighting, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective damage to Normal, Fighting, Ice, Dark and Grass Pokeémon and resisted damage to Electric, Flying, Poison, Psychic and Fairy Pokeémon. The damage from Flying Press will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon. This move uses considerable Flying and Fighting energy.

Dragon Rage (Various) -- The user summons a powerful attack which is dependent on the arena. If there is water present between the two Pokeémon, the user summons a spiral of energy, which is quickly sent at the opponent, sucking up the water in the arena to deal significant Water-typed damage for significant energy. If there isn't water, it's a large fireball which deals heavy damage in a mix of dragon and fire energy, dealing Super Effective damage on Bug, Grass and Ice-types and Not Very Effective damage on Fire and Fairy types. This move uses considerable Dragon and Fire energy.The fireball may be used in an aqueous environment, but the water version is arena-dependent.

There is no good way to do this but this is probably the only way to keep them okay without them being crazy.

Sludge Bomb (PO) -- The user fires a large ball of poison energy at the foe, which bursts upon contact in a wave of sludge for significant damage. The sludge is highly toxic, and has a 30% chance of poisoning the foe. This attack may also be used in a scattershot variation, where multiple small balls are launched at the foe, which can be spread out or focused as desired. This version also deals significant damage in total, with each ball dealing roughly moderate damage.

There you go, Poison-typed Water Pulse.

Glare (NO) -- Using decent energy, the user gives the opponent a look that, upon eye contact, freezes the target in place for a few seconds. This move is somewhat hypnotic, taking advantage of the user's snake-like charms, and somewhat effective even on Pokémon that would not otherwise be intimidated.
This is really more of a snake-hypnosis move than just an initimidating stare so it should be made a bit better.

Leer (NO) -- Using light energy, the user glowers at the opponent while its eyes glow brightly, trying to spook the opponent. When eye contact occurs, the opponent will freeze in place for a moment, potentially interrupting their attack and lowering their defense temporarily. The accuracy of this attack depends on the distance apart the two Pokémon are, as there needs to be close to moderate range for this attack to work.
There - the anime actually does it this way and we never have for some reason.

Scary Face (NO) -- The user makes a face that scares the target, using moderate energy to distort their features and cause their eyes to glow. Foes who are intimidated by this will move and act slowly and cautiously as they watch for attacks from all sides, dropping their speed significantly. This move is slightly more initimidating than others of its kind, making it work slightly more effectively on Pokémon who may not normally be intimidated by the user.

I'm not sure how I feel about Screech and Metal Sound since Screech is already really good.

Fake Tears (DK) -- Using moderate energy, the user pretends to cry, which may leave the victim(s) open to being attacked. It also can be somewhat distracting and can fluster the foe, distracting them from the battle and lowering their special defense significantly. Success rate is akin to Charm, in that the victim's mental state and the current battle must be taken into account.
Not sure why we never made this lower Special Defense even if it's really dumb
Substitute (NO) -- The user creates a copy of itself. Its trainer first specifies a power level between good and extreme (the default level is significant) and the user sacrifices that amount of health and 1.25x that amount of energy to form the copy. The copy will have the amount of health sacrificed to create it and will fade once this is depleted. Upon creating the copy, the user tricks opponents in to focusing on it and prevents them from deliberately targeting their true location under any circumstances. The user will move around to avoid attacks automatically, though indirect or arena wide damage such as Hail or Earthquake may still affect both the copy and the user. The user will still perform attacks - the Substitute is simply a very convincing distraction. The copy is immune to all status conditions. Maintaining the copy costs no energy but sustained usage will cause the user to become fatigued at a faster rate than normal.
We literally just had this conversation but fine okay, hand held.

Extreme Speed (XX) -- The user consumes a significant amount of energy to move as quickly as it possibly can, striking the opponent for solid physical damage, which is boosted thanks to the increased momentum. It is also much more difficult to control direction. Additionally, unlike other moves, it is very straining to use this move over long distances. Extremespeed is faster and more powerful than Quick Attack, but uses a lot more energy.

Errata to come once people yell at me.
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Last edited by Jerichi; 05-15-2016 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:08 PM   #35
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The mew thread is closed.

Better talk about how Refresh should totally have usage limits in this thread then.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:15 PM   #36
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-We really need to have a talk about Roost - it is kind of a bad thing to have a move that both restores health and puts you in an advantageous place energy-wise. We also probably need to discuss other energy-restoring moves as well but this is less pressing.

I dont know why you guys made it dual. For the xx version it should be energy, and only flyers should get the perk of health roost if we are keeping it this way. The pseudo wish should be kept only for flyers.

-We sort of need to talk about absolute nukes as well, e.g. things like Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat, etc., and how we want to handle those. The current rules don't do too well with them and what's come in their place make them really crippling and not really worth using unless you can score a safe KO.

I still dont like how much bide can nuke, could we cap the damage somehow?

-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

Can this concept of one mover also apply for rounds where KOs have occured?


The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Roost (XX) -- The user settles on to a perch and relaxes its wings, focusing and restoring a major amount of health at the cost of major energy. Despite the energy use, this technique is fairly restful, refreshing them somewhat, akin to a weaker version of Wish's initial effect. This move counts as a Pokémon's one 'healing move' per match. Alternatively, Flying Pokémon may use Roost to restore major energy instead of health, being refreshed with the full potency of Wish's initial effect. This version does not count as the one healing move per match.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
Health is a bigger asset than energy. I feel the distribution of roost is too varied to give that many pokemon a reliable healing move.

The proposed changes

Can health be designated to flying type only while the energy version be made XX? Currently kept at XX being the health version makes Roost the most distributed health healing move for ASB with the added pseudo wish. The pseudo wish can be done away with, but at least make sure it is not crippling to use per say. Something along the lines of despite using major energy, the user will feel as if he had used less than that.



The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas
Bide (NO) - Taking a defensive stance, the user endures all attacks against it and remains in one location, making no attempt to dodge. It takes full damage from all attacks against it during this time and cannot perform other actions. As it endures, a red aura surrounds it completely. This aura absorbs the power of attacks levied against it, growing in size as it does so, and breaks after absorbing the power of a major amount of of damage or greater. When it breaks, the energy absorbed is condensed in to a large beam and fired as an attack, the user able to aim it at will. The beam deals damage equal to twice the power of the energy it has absorbed and is made up of the type energy of the endured attacks (meaning that a Bide beam can deal multi type damage). Bide absorbs attack power before the user actually takes damage, meaning that it absorbs only the base power of the attacks (including the attacker's boosts) and does not take account of type effectiveness against the Bide user or any defensive boosts that the Bide user may have. Energy usage for a Bide is initially neutral, costing the user energy equal to the power of the beam fired. For each successive use, the energy cost increases by 25% in the same way as Protect. Creating the initial Bide aura uses only minor energy. A Bide aura can be maintained for up to two rounds if it is not broken by attacks and will dissipate harmlessly if it absorbs less than a major amount of damage for no energy cost. The Bide aura also shields the user from the secondary effects of attacks and prevents it from being afflicted with any statuses while it is held.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
Uh

The proposed changes
Just cap the damage at this point? Idk, it feels more like a newbie punishing button than an actual competitive tool to use. Something around 3 HB worth of damage at the most?
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:24 PM   #37
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>Refresh

How about instead of limiting it, we make it so if you heal a status with a healing move, you also reset diminishing returns?

Just a though.

>Roost

Once we get a little further with exhaustion I'll think about Roost a little more.

>Bide

Bide caps have been discussed ad nauseum but I'm willing to let them be discussed again if we can come up with a good compromise.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:40 PM   #38
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>Refresh

How about instead of limiting it, we make it so if you heal a status with a healing move, you also reset diminishing returns?

Just a though.

I dont get it
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:48 PM   #39
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The problem isn't diminishing returns it's that it essentially gives pseudo immunity to stall and the simple matter is a lot to most of its users don't need that kind of help.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:58 PM   #40
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By contrast, nerfing Refresh makes Curse etc ridiculously strong. if they heal off a status you gave them before and then you can Curse them (or put on your stupidly-broken-unless-Refreshed-away sig move) without worry, which is a much bigger problem than you not being able to toxic a couple mons as easily as a couple others. It resetting Diminishing Returns is the best idea.

Moving on from that, though:

Switching moves suck to deal with in ASB. Any way they've been in the past is either totally useless or totally broken. Right now, it's totally broken in Switch = KO. These 4 moves are a LOT of the reason people think Switch = KO is an ostensibly bad playstyle. I've heard fairly solid battlers say they wouldn't touch a Switch = KO match without having almost exclusively mon with Switch moves in their squad. I've spent plenty of time with Electrics, more than enough to know the majority of the reason their such an easy type to use is that you can switch them out so easily.

These moves are insane and a plague on ~50% of the battles that happen in the ASB. Let's fix them:

I propose all Switching Moves have a clause in them, stating they work as they currently do in Switch = OK, but in Switch = KO they must follow the rules of Mega Evolving/Switch = OK Conventional switches: must be the first thing you do, and if used while going second your opponent may reorder. Having a separate approach for both playstyles stops them from being worthless in Switch = OK while also making them less mind-numbingly broken in Switch = KO.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:11 PM   #41
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I like Snorby's idea on switch moves but would like to add the point of clarification that it should be worded less as Switch = OK and Switch = KO and more in a manner of "If the trainer is normally able to switch" and "If the trainer is not normally able to switch". This way it works under Switch = Gym fairly and whatever ugly rules people come up with down the line because people like to abuse this crap, while also still allowing to be locked by Mean Look and the like.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:13 PM   #42
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Oh yeah that definitely should be a thing.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:50 PM   #43
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I mean with Curse You'd have to pay the steep health cost a 2nd time and Toxic costs a good bit of off type to use for most Pokemon and regardless of that it takes a good while to ramp up.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:51 PM   #44
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I'm not sure how I feel about Screech and Metal Sound since Screech is already really good.
This may be late but i wanted to wait till the thread was open again rather than bugging Jeri about it but my point was to make metal sound more different from screech, rather than boosting them both. Keep screech's niche but make metal sound more unique.

>Bide:
I feel like giving bide a cap takes away from what makes it fun to use, it will probably drop into obscurity if we do so, but I don't have any other real argument against it other than bidecannons are really fun and satisfying, and also relatively avoidable by most people who have been here a while.
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Old 06-05-2016, 11:02 PM   #45
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A Bide cap seems silly given Bide is already super niche and more often than not garbage.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:56 AM   #46
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A Bide cap seems silly given Bide is already super niche and more often than not garbage.
A dragonite can live to fight another day if you dealt 3 HB worth of damage. No other attack deals 3HB to begin with. Look around ASB, it is always used at the other extreme, as a newbie punisher. I don't feel it is justified to teach them about the move as they get punished by it. A seasoned player wouldn't want 3 HB of damage to begin with, so it is still potent just not ridiculous or capable of causing a ORKO.
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Old 06-06-2016, 03:45 PM   #47
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Why does refresh need use limits?

On Bide... we all know the answer is damage caps. We just don't like it. Can we just bite the bullet and remove the cancerous tumour already? It's been a long time coming.

Don't agree that switching moves present a problem. However, we should make every possible effort to render Switch = KO a weird thing that is rarely done, so I would support that change.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:22 PM   #48
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Recovery moves have them and psuedo stall immunity with no counterplay is bad especially when it generally belongs to fairly powerful pokemon.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:25 PM   #49
Ironthunder
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tbh the answer is 'make Bide suck' but you already did that and we still use it. But yes it needs capping, preferably at 2HB.

As for other moves that need fixing...

Shadow Ball (GH) -- The user charges up and fires a ball of significant Ghost energy at the opponent. Upon striking the foe, the ball bursts, letting out a ghostly wind that deals significant damage to those around it. This move has a 10% chance to slightly lower the foe's special defense stat for a few rounds.

Can we just shift this to straight damage please? Ghosts have enough problems attacking as is without their main STAB being able to do more damage to them than their opponent when they're using it.

If this has been sorted I do apologize but both site and move errata indicate it hasn't been changed.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:27 PM   #50
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I'd rather get rid of the limit on recovery moves than limit refresh, honestly.
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